lack Cords and bad traits
by Oatman: 2005-05-11 | 6.35 out of 10 (26 votes)
Please excuse the long winded intro:
Everybody has a desire to do evil at some point in time, no matter how 'good' you are, there will be times when you wish to do somthing 'evil'.
Everyone also has a personality flaw which brings out the worst in them, ie greed, lust, jealousy, etc
During the AoL most if not all of the Forsaken would have led lives of productive members of society, and most would have refrained from giving into thier evil impulses in order to keep respected positions in society.
When the bore was drilled it was to obtain an alternate source of power from the One Power, though the people who drilled it were not evil(yet).
When the war of Power errupted the personality flaws in the Forsaken caused them to turn to the DO, and swear to him with the effect of being linked to him via the Dark Cords.
I beleive that the Dark Cords, not only allowing untainted saidin for males and the chance for the DO to transmigrate you if killed, amplifies the evil urges every person has and supresses guilt and any good urges.
Sammael, for example, fought for the light for many years before turning to the DO. When he thought the light was losing his lust for power made him turn to the dark(thats how I see it anyway). His years fighting for the light rule out that he was inherintly evil, and the change that occured was so drastic that I feel there must have been an outside influence.
"When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?
Robert Jordan Answers:
They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so. "
This question shows that such a twisting of a persons personality DID happen, and I would argue that turning a person to the DO against thier will is attaching the Dark Cord to them against there will.
This would also explain why no Forsaken have ever turned back to the light, and also why Asmodean seemed to harbour no evil desires after having his Dark Cord cut - he actually seems to be turning back to the light.
I will supply quotes when I have more time.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-05-20
Oatman - I have a soft spot for the properties of Black Cords, however I wonder how Lanfear's rebelious feelings can be reconciled. Then again, a direct connection with the DO must have some affects to the individual to whom he is attached. I would side with you; the connection with the Dark One accentuates the evil inclinations of an individual. Is there a twisting that occurs after an individual swears his life to the DO, and the DO connects himself to that individual? There could be. I have to think on this more; but, for the time being, I am leaning your way. Get some additional quotes.
2
Merk: 2005-05-20
An interesting theory, but I don't know that there is any proof about it one way or the other. It seems to me just as likely that the Forsaken have thrown their lot in with the DO and haven't seen any reason to switch back. It would be hard; not only do they think they are on the winning side, but the potential rewards are much greater if you stick with the Shadow (immortality, for example). There are no real rewards for switching to the Light, other than some sort of salvation, and I think they gave up on that long ago. I also think the punishments for trying to switch must weigh on them if they were ever to consider going over to the Light. I don't think the DO would take it kindly.
Basically, the DO offers direct rewards and punishments that the Light can't compete with, especially since the Creator does not become directly involved.
As for Asmo, I don't think he ever came back to the Light, he was just in a situation where his only hope was if Rand won. If you are put in a situation with only one tiny hope, you seize on it, and that's what he did. I don't think he would have hesitated for a second to go back to helping out the DO if he thought he could do it without one of the other Forsaken attacking him while weakened and without the DO thinking he had betrayed the Shadow. Basically, Lanfear put him in a no-win situation, so he cast his lot with Rand because it was his only hope.
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JakOShadows: 2005-05-21
Merk:
The only problem with your theory is that in the books following tSR, he does seem to be in awe after some of the things Rand does. This means that he has a certain amount of liking for him. Whereas he didn't seem in awe of anything the others did, so I don't think he identified with them as much. This would mean he likes the light more than the dark. It could also be his good personality, but it seems like he makes a 180 degree personality change too quickly for it for to be faking it.
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Callandor: 2005-05-21
**This question shows that such a twisting of a persons personality DID happen, and I would argue that turning a person to the DO against thier will is attaching the Dark Cord to them against there will.**
No. The Black Cords are a physical (or metaphysical whatever), mark by the Dark One that are oaths and bonds and are only done in his presence (IE: the Pit of Doom).
Turning someone to the Dark can be any channeler as long as there are 13 channelers and 13 Fades.
**This would also explain why no Forsaken have ever turned back to the light, and also why Asmodean seemed to harbour no evil desires after having his Dark Cord cut - he actually seems to be turning back to the light.**
Not quite. He's faking really. He does want Rand to win (evidence by Lanfear's telling of his dreams to Rand), but he still thinks those evil thoughts right before he dies.
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 56 - Glowing Embers
"Idly-but with a shiver, too-be wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man. He did not think so. Immortality was gone. *That was a gift of the Great Lord; he used that name in his head, whatever al'Thor demanded on his tongue. That was proof enough that he was himself.* Immortality gone- he knew it must be imagination, yet sometimes he thought he could feel time dragging at him, pulling him toward a grave he had never thought to meet and nawing the little of saidin he could was like drinking sewage. He was hardly sorry Lanfear was dead. Rahvin neither, but Lanfear especially, for what she had done to him. He would laugh when each of the others died, too, and most for the last. *It was not that he had been reborn is a new man at all, but he would cling to that tuft of grass on the cliff's brink as long as he could.* The roots would give way eventually, the long fall would come, but until then he was still alive.**
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NargsBrood: 2005-05-21
Oatman said:"When the bore was drilled it was to obtain an alternate source of power from the One Power, though the people who drilled it were not evil(yet)."
Lanfear drilled into the bore knowing what she was doing. the other scientists who were helping thought they were tapping a knew power source.
merk said:"I also think the punishments for trying to switch must weigh on them if they were ever to consider going over to the Light. I don't think the DO would take it kindly."
Take a look at how asmodean explains it to rand at the beginning of book 5, fires of heaven. sorry, dont have exact spot but it is easy to find.(at the very beginning of one of the early chapters)
Merk said:"As for Asmo, I don't think he ever came back to the Light, he was just in a situation where his only hope was if Rand won. If you are put in a situation with only one tiny hope, you seize on it, and that's what he did. I don't think he would have hesitated for a second to go back to helping out the DO if he thought he could do it without one of the other Forsaken attacking him while weakened and without the DO thinking he had betrayed the Shadow. Basically, Lanfear put him in a no-win situation, so he cast his lot with Rand because it was his only hope."
At that same point i mentioned earlier, asmo gave this analogy to rand: once asmodean was standing over a man hanging off a cliff. the man was so desperate that he saw a few blades of grass sticking out near him. He was so desperate for hope that he grabbed on to the few blades of grass..... (asmodean didnt answer rand whether asmo saved him or not hehe....)
if rand would have just bowed down to ishy once in book one in his dreams like ishy wanted him to do so many times, would that have tied the black cord to rand? pushed his soul over to the DO?
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: 2005-05-21
NargsBrood:
///Lanfear drilled into the bore knowing what she was doing. the other scientists who were helping thought they were tapping a knew power source. ///
Quote? The BWB seems to disagree with you:
(p 40-42) The researchers, Mierin (Lanfear) and Beidomon included, are looking for a source of the One Power without the limitations saidar and saidin seem to have. They sense a thinness in the Pattern and what they believe is a source of the One Power beyond and are excited to reach it.
"It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation. The emanations MIerin (Lanfear) and the others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the Pattern that covered his prison. The hole they created has been ever after known as the Bore."
Yada yada, at this time the people only had to deal with the evil within themselves, and things are great because the motivations for war and hate have been removed. But with the Bore, the DO can touch the world and dissatisfaction and "the baser motivations and emotional problems of mankind were enhanced and manipulated." Note that this is a general effect he had on the world without attaching black strings to individual people.
yada yada yada
"Those who were dissatisfied with their lives or who sought greater power now had a choice." The DO offers rewards, etc etc. "Even Aes Sedai, drawn by promises of power, immortality, and, in some cases, revenge, joined the ranks of those sympathetic to the Dark One, adding great strength to his cause. These Aes Sedai came to be known as 'Dreadlords.'"
Later on, in Lanfear's section (p 62):
"There is little doubt that she was as surpsised as the rest of the world to discover what actually lay beyond the hole she helped create, and she was indeed fortunate to be one of the few to survive the backlash that destroyed the Sharom and most of the Collam Daan. From various bits of evidence it seems Mierin was not among the first to go voer to the Shadow, but when she did pledge her sould to the Dark One, it was fore teh most basic of reasons: love and hate."
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El Bogarto: 2005-05-21
NargsBrood - Is there any proof that Mierin Eronaile knew what she was drilling into?
I've always thought she turned to the shadow after Lews married Ilyena.
She wasn't one of the first to swear to the shadow, which I'd personally expect if she knew that the 'new power source' was in fact a manifestation of the DO.
Heck, no one even remembered the DO before the Bore was drilled ~ how could she have known what they were getting into?
Granted, they could have proceded more carefully, but this is Mierin we're talking about. She was desperate for that third name.
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JakOShadows: 2005-05-22
Sorry about the last post. My computer is acting funny. Those are good quotes Callandor. He does still seem willing to turn on Rand. But towards the end he starts believing that Rand will win.
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Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-05-24
For reasons I won't explain here, I believe that the Dark One doesn't just want servants, he wants servants who follow him of their own free will. He could mindtrap every Forsaken, but hasn't. He must believe that they are of more use to him acting independently and to their own designs. For that reason, the idea of him altering their personality to be more evil, via the black cords, is incorrect to me. His mere presence caused those base emotions to be enhanced in evryone in the world, not just in the Forsaken. What advantage could there be to making them even more evil, when they've already betrayed everything and everyone? How could they be more evil?
I think the Forsaken
10
JakOShadows: 2005-05-24
Great Lord of the Dark: That does make a lot of sense. And probably what happened is the people that had enough of an evil tendency were more easily tempted by the dark one. Making them easier turn to his side. I do think that Asmo being around Rand and the effect of taver'en might have also had an effect. Made him side with Rand more. If you think about it, he did spend a lot of time with him.
11
Callandor: 2005-05-24
**For reasons I won't explain here, I believe that the Dark One doesn't just want servants, he wants servants who follow him of their own free will. He could mindtrap every Forsaken, but hasn't.**
Well, he must have changed his mind with Moghedien and Cyndane then.
**He must believe that they are of more use to him acting independently and to their own designs.**
Like Lanfear trying to tempt Rand into joining her in moving against the Dark One (and the Creator)?
**How could they be more evil?**
Padan Fain?
Plus, you're reasoning falls flat on it's face (at least to the degree you take it elsewhere), when you read this quote:
**TITLE: The Path of Dagger, CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving
"He seized the True Power without though, the saa billowing black across his sight. His fingers tightened in the wrought-iron grille across the window; the metal groaned, twisting, not from his grip but from the tendrils of the True Power, drawn from the Great Lord himself, that wreathed around the grillework, flexing as he flexed his hand in anger. ~The Great Lord would not be pleased. He had strained from his prison to touch the world enough to fix the seasons in place. He was impatient to touch the world more, to shatter the void that contained him, and he would not be pleased.~ Rage enveloped Moridin, blood pounding in his ears. A moment past, he had not cared where those women went, but now.... Somewhere far from here. People fleeing ran as far and as fast as they could. Somewhere they felt safe. No use sending Madic to ask questions, no use squeezing anyone here; they would not have been fool enough to leave anyone behind alive who knew their destination. Not to Tar Valon. To al'Thor? To that band of rebel Aes Sedai? In all three places he had eyes, some that did not know they served him. All would serve him, before the end. He would not allow chance slips to spoil his plans now."
Obviously, very obviously, the Dark One ~wants~ to get free, and only accepting servants that have the free choice to serve him, is ridiculous.
Do the Forsaken work better by working for the Dark One of their own choice? Of course. But would the Dark One cast away any servants, if he could have them by force? I don't think so.
If the Dark One could mindtrap all channelers in Randland, he'd do it in a heartbeat, because his escape would be that much more likely (a damn near certainty). He'll do anything to get free from his prison, and if he has willing helpers, fantastic -- but he will still use the ones that are unwilling to help (as seen by the Forsaken now mindtrapped; the idea, finding, and practice of turning someone to the Dark; mindtrapping done in the AoL; and let's not forget what goes into the making of Fade's blades).
The choice to serve the Dark One is sought after, sure. But is that the only way he opperates? Not a chance.
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Anubis: 2005-05-25
It could be that the black cords enhance negative thoughts and traits but I dont really buy that. I think its more like the fact that the oaths involved around getting the black cords involve pretty much swearing to be evil. Getting the black cords is pretty much the ultimate assertion of evil. Once you have them you no longer really have the choice to be good or evil because you have already made the choice.
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JakOShadows: 2005-05-26
anubis: I like the way you explained that. It seems to make more of a logical sense in the way Asmo was behaving as well. He doesn't seem as tied to making evil decisions once disconnected, but he still thinks about those choices.
Callandor: I do agree with you here, but I'm sure there are somethings he would rather have done with someone who has freewill. For example, if he needed an aes sedai to use a certain amount of judgement in manipulating someone. Then when he realizes they can't be trusted, he would have to get someone else to replace them. I believe that is what happened with Lanfear and Moghedein. But for some other tasks like killing someone or for starting a war, there wouldn't be as much last minute changing involved in an operation like that. So it probably depends on what exactly he is after.
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Callandor: 2005-05-27
**Callandor: I do agree with you here, but I'm sure there are somethings he would rather have done with someone who has freewill. For example, if he needed an aes sedai to use a certain amount of judgement in manipulating someone. Then when he realizes they can't be trusted, he would have to get someone else to replace them. I believe that is what happened with Lanfear and Moghedein. But for some other tasks like killing someone or for starting a war, there wouldn't be as much last minute changing involved in an operation like that. So it probably depends on what exactly he is after.**
He's after one thing: freedom. Saying he won't use a resource to get free, is just lunacy. He may prefer one way over another (or a few ways), but he wants to get free and will use whatever he can to get free.
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JakOShadows: 2005-05-27
Callandor: I wasn't saying that the DO would never ever use a method to get free. It's just that depending on the task he is using to get free, there might be some preferences to how and who it is done by. Obviously, some people he would not trust to manipulate or heal someone. For example, would he want Semirhage to heal one of the forsaken if he knows that she has tendencies to torture her patients. But obviously he would still want someone with freewill, who could use her knowledge and judgement to heal someone. Now in some cases, Semirhage would still be used because she is one of the best healers alive. So he still uses her as a tool, even though he prefers someone else who doesn't torture their patience.
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Oatman: 2005-05-28
Anubis, that is kinda what I was trying to say. Swearing to the DO is the swearing to do evil, which attaches the black cord, which restricts feelings of guilt or remorse which could be felt after committing mass murder.
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Callandor: 2005-05-28
**Callandor: I wasn't saying that the DO would never ever use a method to get free. It's just that depending on the task he is using to get free, there might be some preferences to how and who it is done by.**
He stays to one method?? Look, he's got one objective: getting free. If he has to go around an capture every living channeler and mindtrap them to make the Dark One's Super Channeling Army, he would if it made his escape easier (I think it definately wouldn't hurt in it).
The reason I came out so strongly against GLotD, is probably for what you do not see. GLotD is also a major proponant of the idea that the Dark One ~does~ have the ability to bring to life any old soul he choses -- he just doesn't. Why? For the reason he stated: he wants free will in his servants.
Now, you can see the major downfall to this idea easily -- it's what we've been discussing, just slightly shifted.
If the Dark One had the power to bring to life anyone he chose, he would be free in about 10 minutes, or have one HELL of a good chance to do that. How? The method I stated above: he would transmigrate all channelers, FROM ALL TIME no less, and mindtrap them, turn them to the dark, heck maybe even a few would join under this free will and save the trouble. Then what's going to stop him? Every single channeler is on his side, combined with the Shadowspawn he's already gotten, against what? Well, that's a hypothetical question there, so who would be left is quite unclear -- but not a lot for sure.
And the major thing, the MAJOR thing in this, is that he would've transmigrated the Dragon's soul so many times it's unbelievable.
Also, the idea goes against what RJ said, that the Dark One conserves the Forsaken, because there isn't a body of channelers for him to get recruits from as large in the Age of Legnds. Read into that -- he's saying the Dark One cannot, or will not, simply go and transmigrate any old soul he chooses. Why would he do that, when he wants nothing else, NOTHING ELSE, than to be free? Choice? Please. Might be best for using, but if the Dark One wants to use them, he will. Notice how he still wants to use Rahvin, but he can't because he was balefired. So what? Balefiring does not destroy the soul, so if the Dark One controlled all the dead, Ravhin would've been back in a moment -- same with Asmodean and Sammael. Yet they are not. Why? He doesn't have ~THAT~ great of power as people perscribe to him. He can transmigrate those sworn to him, the ones that have given their souls to him, and then certain situations make it impossible to transmigrate them anyway.
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Tristin: 2005-06-10
What makes this even more interesting is that "evil" in Jordan's world is much different from evil in ours.
In our world, evil qua Augustine is a lesser good. Evil does not have any ontological grounding, it is not something that actually is. For Augustine, evil was privative. That means that evil is the absence of the true Good while replacing it with lesser goods. I.e., Hitler wasn't scary cause he was Satan incarnate, but because he was a human who got where he did not by flipping a light switch but by walking a path lined with things that seemed good (at least to him) but ended in atrocity. In theological terms evil is the absence of God because God is Good and anything less than Gods Good is just a lesser good and evil.
In Jordan's world Evil is embodied by the DO. Certain people can be switched on and off like a light switch, i.e., 13 and 13. While "bad traits" in people are there, these bad traits are really only lust after power, etc. These aren't really evils, just lesser goods. It isn't until the DO connects himself to a person that the person becomes properly evil. That is to say, a kind of substatial evil, with a positive existence is tied to you. While people would choose this evil based upon their bad traits I don't think that evil in the WOT is something a person can just be without coming in contact with the DO or some other source. Note who the Finn are not evil per se, evil though they have seemingly "bad traits." Also Fain is evil, but because he came in contact with a different kind of evil...the evil he came to seems to be something that might ultimately argue against me. The evil of Shadar Logoth was a humanly evil...bad traits taken to the extreme...some how these bad traits eventually over time developed into a very positive ontological evil that rivals the DO in some ways. But even then Fain is not only a product of SL but also the DO evils touching eachother (like two streams of evil balefire hehe).
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JakOShadows: 2005-06-10
I just thought of something here. What if the more evil things you do, the more you are bonded to the DO. Like in Star Wars episode 3, Annakin first pledges himself to the Sith Lord, but he only gets his power once he kills the kids at the temple. It seems to me that once the DO is linked to you, he can transmigrate your soul and all that stuff. But the more evil you do, the stronger your bond is to the DO, and the easier your soul is transmigrated, etc.
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haertchen: 2005-06-10
I would have to say the following here:
I agree that the Dark One's goal is just to get out. He uses whatever he can to reach this goal - he has no concept of fair play. (Thus I agree, for instance, with Callandor that the DO cannot transmigrate just anybody.) OTOH, we see from the books that the vast majority of the forsaken are not mind-trapped. The ones that are arguably did something to deserve it: Moghedien spent months helping the cause of light, and proved that under duress, she is a traitor. Lanfear proved that all she cared about was power, and worked for her own agenda in ways that directly contradicted the DO's plan (in contrast to most forsaken, who don't try to directly go against the DO, but scheme around him.) The Great Lord could easily have mind-trapped all the rest at this point, had he wanted to; Shadar Haran and Moridin seem like more than enough to catch any forsaken unawares. Thus I can only conclude that it is not in his best interest to mind-trap everybody. He needs at least some people working (for the most part) with their ability to choose unhampered by deadly fear of being killed at any second.
The question that is then asked is: why? Why are most of the forsaken running more-or-less free when they could be reigned in much more strongly? What is it that the DO loses by trapping them?
I can say that I don't know the answer. Some of the reasons that I can imagine are
(1)a potential loss of initiative on the part of the forsaken. I don't know how creative the DO is, and he may need people who don't feel like they need his strict permission for everything they do.
(2) the wheel can only be truly subverted "from within," and mind-trapping is too direct a control over a thread to allow really effective damage to the wheel.
(3) He doesn't have the resources to efffectively mind-trap all of them and make sure they don't manage to band together to break the trap. There are very few things I could see that would allow the forsaken to work together gladly to take another one down, but this might well be one of them.
As I said, I don't really know, so feel free to take any of these reasons apart or exand on them as though you had always felt that way.
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Tristin: 2005-06-10
I think that once you are bonded you are bonded to your soul...but it probably works in reverse...if a person habitually does bad acts then that person is much easier to turn to the Darkside. The difference with Anakin I think is that he was led down a bad rode and became evil, whereas in WOT a person can do lots of bad things and open the door to evil/get its attention/etc., but when the DO has you he turns you Dark like a light switch...there's no getting back when your jedi son kills/saves you :-)
22
Tristin: 2005-06-10
I think you bring up some good points heartchen. The only distinction is that the mindtraps, while tying them closer to the Dark Lord, do not increase the evil already there in anyway.
I don't think the mind-traps will affect their ability to manipulate the pattern any more than an oath of fealty would negate it for one of the Egwene pledged AS...Or to those pledged to Rand or whatever. This is due entirely to the fact that they already chose a side and once they did getting forced to stay and obey is to be expected.
The only threads that might not be able to change the pattern due to freewill would be a 13 13 channeler. I think they still have that ability however, or what would be the point.
