ark One not a Physical Entity
by Ozymandias: 2005-06-30 | 5.33 out of 10 (12 votes)
I envision the Dark One as a sort of Pandora's box of evil. He doesn't exist as a physical entity (some Sauron-like vision comes to mind for me), but more as an inky black fog of evil surrounding the Pattern.
When Mieren Sedai drills the Bore, she is really drilling a hole, or conduit, into the Pattern. This exceedingly small conduit permits the fog of evil, which is the Dark One, to seep into and along the Pattern. As this evil gets into the Pattern, it corrupts nearby people (turning them into Darkfriends), and, as it spreads further outwards, affecting people to do evil acts, like murder or robbery. As one is less and less touched by the spreading fog (or as their threads are less and less touched) the magnitude of their evil decreases until it is almost unnoticeable to everyone else (thae majority of Randlanders who "walk in the Light", fall under this category).
The sealing of the Bore was attained by placing a bottle, or container, around this conduit, and thereby stopping the flow of this evil fog. However, as the 3000 or so years pass, a great deal of this fog has escaped into the bowl like container, and the pressure built up by that is now threatening to burst the bowl-thingy. Obviously, this is represented by the Seals weakening, and, finally, bursting or breaking.
A past example of this steam por fog seeping across the Pattern occurs just after the Bore is sealed. The last residues of this fog that are stuck in the conduit between infinity and the Pattern escape into the Pattern, causing one last thrust of mistrust and suspicion. Example is this. Probably about 5 years or so (given the amount of time it takes for the Taint to drive male channelers mad) after the sealing of the Bore, we see Jonai (through the Rhuidean memories) enter the Hall of the Servants. Once inside, he sees the Dragon banner, and more or less curses the memory of Lews Therin Telamon. Now, in my opinion, it would take a great deal of hatred, almost impossible amounts, even given what the people had gone through, to make ANYONE, esecially the unoffending Aiel, hate someone THAT much, especially given the track record of past service. Remeber, LTT was the Captain of the Light, and he DID end the War of Power, regardless of what happened afterwards. I think it was this hissing out of the last dregs of the evil fog of the Dark One which made people so suspicious and hateful in those last days during the Breaking: it made the Aiel, or the PEOPLE OF THE DRAGON, revile LTT (aka the Dragon... who they supposedly served). Add this to the fact that Jonai, at least, has completely forgotten LTT's past service to the Light, and you have an incredibly suspicious reversal of circumstances... from loved to hated, all in a few years, when most people know that the DO caused the Taint (I'm sure it had been identified that that was the cause by then, given the skills and knowledge of the time).
This air of suspicion is apparent everywhere else, as well. People freely rob travelers (as our Aiel firsthand accounts attest to). Its easy to pass this off as being desperate to survive, but I doubt anyone could forget the civilization of only a few decades ago and resort to such unrestrained barbarism as carrying off women to be slaves. Taking food and water is one thing, slavery another. This is just another example of the air of hatred which the last vestiges of the evil fog, aka the Dark One, had caused.
This “conduit” theory, coupled with that of the Dark One being more in the nature of some sort of general vileness hovering in the infinite space around the Pattern, is furthered supported by evidence of why the Dark One is NOT a physical entity. If the Bore had been drilled and the Dark One was able to touch the world, then it stands to reason that there is a physical hole in the prison, not really a thinness. Otherwise the DO still couldn't touch the world, since there is still a barrier, however weak or thin, blocking him. The Bore that the Chosen go to speak with the DO at is the conduit, where you can hear the voice, which I consider more of a purpose, speaking. This purpose has one goal; to infiltrate the Pattern. If anyone reads David Eddings, picture this fog as equitable with the two Purposes that drive that plot. If there were an actual hole, the almost all-powerful PHYSICAL Dark One would be able to widen it and step through, since he couldn't possibly have any definite size, given his nature. If he can lay a “finger” on the Pattern, he could definitely do more. Contrariwise, if the Bore is actually a conduit to that outer fog, then that point becomes moot, because the whole idea of the Pattern being physically touched is gone. Instead, my idea of a spreading fog affecting threads of the Pattern in waves makes more sense, especially given the parallel theory of the evil fog still coming through but being trapped by the Seals. Therefore, if we rule out that the Dark One cannot be physical, or he would have touched and warped the Pattern further, then my theory becomes even more plausible.
When the Seals finally break, and the pent up evilness is released, the Last Battle comes. Darkfriends get that extra infusion of evil which makes them all go public, and all hell breaks loose with Trollocs and Myrdraal coming ravening south, inspired by the new spirit of evil. The spirit of evil has been maintained all these years by small outlettings of this fog through miniscule holes in the cloth bowl which seals the conduit; enough to maintain the presence of evil in the world, but not enough to counteract the slowly growing volume of evil contained in the conduit. Every so often larger amounts of this gas of evil are released, leading to events like the Trolloc Wars or the Hundred Years War or other cataclysmic events.
This theory is rather shaky, and in the interest of you all being able to follow it and not have it be 4 word processed pages or some other ridiculous number, I'll leave it at this for now. Feel free to ask questions or destroy the theory.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-08-08
I am prone to believe it isn't an embodied entity, as you suggest. It does seem to be able to get inside of an individual, and to affect weather, etc, very similar to Mashadar, the Blight is a good example of it's fog like effect. Are you suggesting there is some critical mass of this "fog" that would constitute it's entirety? In other words, is there an amount that has to come through to make up that which is the DO? I
2
Callandor: 2005-08-09
**I envision the Dark One as a sort of Pandora's box of evil. He doesn't exist as a physical entity (some Sauron-like vision comes to mind for me), but more as an inky black fog of evil surrounding the Pattern.**
He is an entity. Physical of course is quite subjective, since the Dark One is not apart of the Pattern he does not have a truely phyiscal body or such.
**Q: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?
A: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the creator carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books... it's somewhat manichian i know, but I think it works.**
Since the Dark One shows obvious desires and intelligence, it seems pointless not to call him an entity. But whether it's a black fog with brains, is unknown.
And it's unlikely he "surrounds" the Pattern, since he is still sealed away in his prison.
**Now, in my opinion, it would take a great deal of hatred, almost impossible amounts, even given what the people had gone through, to make ANYONE, esecially the unoffending Aiel, hate someone THAT much, especially given the track record of past service.**
That is of course, your opinion.
And he doesn't curse Lews Therin:
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated
"He shivered, wondering if men would ever stand in a meeting such as this again. When he saw what was on the table, the shiver became a shudder. A crystal sword perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament; he had no way of telling held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor. His heart clenched. What was that doing here? Why had it not been destroyed, and memory of the cursed man as well?"
**Remeber, LTT was the Captain of the Light, and he DID end the War of Power, regardless of what happened afterwards.**
Regardless of destroying their civilization as far as they knew it? That's a big chunk to just flat out ignore.
**This air of suspicion is apparent everywhere else, as well. People freely rob travelers (as our Aiel firsthand accounts attest to). Its easy to pass this off as being desperate to survive, but I doubt anyone could forget the civilization of only a few decades ago and resort to such unrestrained barbarism as carrying off women to be slaves.**
Their carrying off women to be raped, so sex slaves if you wish.
And no, I don't think it's such a leap at all. Their whole world is breaking down around them, and they know of war now and the dangers it causes.
**If the Bore had been drilled and the Dark One was able to touch the world, then it stands to reason that there is a physical hole in the prison, not really a thinness.**
There was a hole in the prison:
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 1 - Lion on the Hill
"Aiel did not care about "the Dragon Reborn"; to them Rand was the Car'a'carn, prophesied to unite them, and to break them. They took it in stride, though they worried about it too, and they seemed to take his channeling in stride as well, and everything that might go with it. The others—The wetlanders, he thought dryly—called him the Dragon Reborn, and never speculated on what that meant. They believed he was the rebirth of Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, the man who had sealed the hole into the Dark One's prison and ended the War of the Shadow three thousand years ago and more. Ended the Age of Legends as well, when the Dark One's last counterstroke tainted saidin, and every man who could channel began to go insane, starting with Lews Therin himself and his Hundred Companions. They called Rand the Dragon Reborn, and never suspected that some part of Lews Therin Telamon might be inside his head, as mad as the day he had begun the Time of Madness and the Breaking of the World, as mad as any of those male Aes Sedai who had changed the face of the world beyond recognition. It had come on him slowly, but the more Rand learned of the One Power, the stronger he became with saidin, the stronger Lews Therin's voice became, and the harder Rand had to fight to keep a dead man's thoughts from taking him over. That was one reason why he liked sword practice; the absence of thought was a barrier to keep him himself."
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
"Even after all his visits—and the first lay well over three thousand years in the past—Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed."
This hole, was the Bore.
The thinness you describe, is just the area around Shayol Ghul. That is a thinness in the Pattern where the Bore can be felt. But not the Bore itself.
3
therobotbadger: 2005-08-09
“[Shai'tan] has no true physical form, being something outside and beyond this universe, yet he has the ability to affect the physical world.”
Guide, 5 – The Dark One and the Male Forsaken, 48
So it is true that the Dark One is not a physical entity.
**Probably about 5 years or so (given the amount of time it takes for the Taint to drive male channelers mad) after the sealing of the Bore, we see Jonai (through the Rhuidean memories) enter the Hall of the Servants. Once inside, he sees the Dragon banner, and more or less curses the memory of Lews Therin Telamon. Now, in my opinion, it would take a great deal of hatred, almost impossible amounts, even given what the people had gone through, to make ANYONE, esecially the unoffending Aiel, hate someone THAT much, especially given the track record of past service.**
Several problems here:
“A crystal sword... held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor. His heart clenched. What was that doing here? Why had it not been destroyed, and memory of the cursed man as well?”
The Shadow Rising, 26 - The Dedicated, 299
That doesn't seem anything like hatred to me. Even if it is, it's not nearly so harsh as you describe. It seems like fear. Fear of a man who was the leader of everything you thought good but who ended destroying everything you know. No, just because a person, Aiel or no, recognized LTT as “cursed” doesn't imply hatred or revulsion. I'm sure it was a common sentiment (after the breaking up to the current time of the books) that LTT was “cursed”, not based on hate but based on the facts of his tragic downfall and death.
Also, the timing of your assessment is way off. The scene I just quoted was from Jonai's PoV. “He was sixty-three, in the prime of life...” (The Shadow Rising, 299). His father is Coumin (301). In Coumin's PoV, he is sixteen (302). The Bore has, in Coumin's PoV, just been sealed (304). So, even assuming Coumin had a child at that young age (not likely, I think), there have been, from the sealing (and the tainting) to the scene in the Hall of Servants, a bare minimum of 63 years for opinions to change about LTT, not 5 years as you propose.
**People freely rob travelers (as our Aiel firsthand accounts attest to). Its easy to pass this off as being desperate to survive, but I doubt anyone could forget the civilization of only a few decades ago and resort to such unrestrained barbarism as carrying off women to be slaves. Taking food and water is one thing, slavery another.**
There is a HUGE timing issue here. A few decades? Oh, no. After the drilling of the Bore:
“Thievery, assault, murder, and even wars began to appear with increasing frequency.”
“The fabric of society began to unravel under the onslaught of the Dark One's influence.”
“Yet there were worse. In some parts of the world, in the years immediately preceding the final collapse into war, murder, rape and even torture became regular parts of many spectator sports.”
“This period of increasingly dark chaos lasted approximately one hundred years to one hundred and ten years after the drilling of the Bore, and was referered to as ‘the Collapse'... and the order and peace of the Age of Legends certainly did.”
Guide, 4 – Age of Legends, 44-45
Certainly I'm not saying that everyone participated in the events described as “the Collapse”, but I think it is perfectly accurate to say that during and after the Breaking, everyone was desperate to survive. The only people who seemed to have any motivation other than simple survival are the Aiel, who held to their Covenant and saved the wagons of Power-related objects that they could. The world of the Age of Legends hadn't been completely civilized for far over 100 years. One of the lynchpins of that society, male channelers, have all turned into incredibly powerful crazy people. Millions have died. I think degeneration into barbarism would be more than easy.
I had written a MUCH longer reply (and also a rant about the nature of the Bore as it relates to higher-dimensional space which I might turn into a theory of my own), but for now I'll content myself to ask some questions and hold the rest back. Those questions are:
Is this “evil fog” physical?
If so, how does this relate to the idea that the Dark One is non-physical?
If not, what is the fog's nature?
What is the nature of the seal? You describe it as a “bottle”, but that idea completely implies physicality. It also implies surrounding. How can you surround something that exists everywhere, as the Bore does?
4
zelyoni: 2005-08-09
I think that the more important question is "Is the DO a Sentient being?"
I can see where the DO could be a "fog" or "steam" or any other word you want to describe him.
From what I understand of your post, you're saying that the DO is Incorporeal and his influence is manifested through actual "seepage" of the DO into the world.
Well, There are numerous comments stating that the DO can't be free because, because if he was, the world woould end. So if you're saying that his incorpporeal form has actually seeped into the world, i disagree.
But as I said before, I believe the more important question is "Is the DO sentient?" I think the obvious answer is an astounding YES, as we have heard it speak and has seen it manifest itself through SH (at least it has been theorized) That said, I'm sure it could be argued that he is not. Evil is evil, and sometimes that which seems to exist is only due to improper observation. :)
However, I do want to say this. I don't think your example of Jonai is a very good one. I think it can be simply explained as human nature. I mean, look at how quickly people act on their feelings. Yeah, he may have been a child of the dragon, but it would not be the first (or last) time a servant turned against their master and hated him for an act he considered evil.
Also, don't forget that the DO can still try to influence the patter even while trapped. Being held only stops him from breaking the wheel, not playing with it. ;)
Gosh, that was way too much, and not very organized, So I'll sum up my opinion thusly: "Yes, it's possible the DO is etheral, but I don't think it matters." ;)
5
Yaga Shura: 2005-08-09
"I envision the Dark One as a sort of Pandora's box of evil. He doesn't exist as a physical entity (some Sauron-like vision comes to mind for me), but more as an inky black fog of evil surrounding the Pattern. "
I think the Dark One is a physical entity. For one thing, he can be balefired:
Thus Spake the Creator: The Shadow (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8513/creator-shadow.htm)
"Q: Why doesn't somebody just BF the DO?
A: The quantity necessary would destroy the world."
That answer implies that he must physically exist, or else he could not be balefired.
"When Mieren Sedai drills the Bore, she is really drilling a hole, or conduit, into the Pattern."
I disagree. I think she drilled straight through the Pattern to get to the other side.
BWB, ch4
"They had discovered a thin place in the Pattern that appeared to cover an undivided source of the One Power"
"they had only to bore a small hole in the Pattern to tap it"
"Mierin and the team bored through to the Source"
They didn't drill into the Pattern, they drilled through it. The TP isn't contained within the Pattern.
"If the Bore had been drilled and the Dark One was able to touch the world, then it stands to reason that there is a physical hole in the prison, not really a thinness."
The prison=/=the Pattern. The Bore went through both the Pattern and the Prison. The Seals held the Pattern closed, preventing the DO from continuing to widen the Bore.
"If there were an actual hole, the almost all-powerful PHYSICAL Dark One would be able to widen it and step through, since he couldn't possibly have any definite size, given his nature. If he can lay a “finger” on the Pattern, he could definitely do more."
The Pattern is pretty powerful, too. It actively resists, by the things it makes people do, the influence of the DO.
Over time, the DO does become able to influence the world to an increaing degree. As the Seals weaken, the amount by which the DO can stretch the hole increases, and consequently, so does his influence.
" Every so often larger amounts of this gas of evil are released, leading to events like the Trolloc Wars or the Hundred Years War or other cataclysmic events. "
Ishamael was responsible for both of those. He was (or controlled) the mysterious counsellor who corrupted Hawkwing against Aes Sedai when they could have saved his life, and who told him to send his son, Luthair, over the ocean, and possibly also told him to send his daughter to Shara, denying the High King a clear succession. Those weren't the work of the Dark One.
6
Kantuna: 2005-08-09
I think that you're absolutely right, and the DO is just like a gas of evil.
Maybe part of the DO is already free, but just floating around like a cloud of fog wouldn't do much good. So if the Cloud of evil fog went into a Myrdraal then it would have more power. So what if Shaidar Haran (Hand of the Dark) isn't just a title, but a literal meaning? This would also explain why he is Nae'blis.
7
Baean AimaDe: 2005-08-10
Shaidar Haran isn't NaeBlis , that's moridin. RJ definitely treats TDO in the same fashion people ( who believe he's real ) Treat Satan , a real physical entity that is the embodiment of evil. So, I'm pretty sure TDO is a real "person" ( after a fashion )
8
JakOShadows: 2005-08-10
Concerning the way the seal works, I think Yaga Shura had the best thoughts to it. Correct me if I read it wrong, but Mierin drilled through pattern or why else would it resist the DO going through the hole or even need to be done at the thin spot. Further more, the seals are weakening, from the pressure of the DO fighting it. And this maybe a little further out there, but what if the pattern is also trying to heal itself and the bores are preventing it. Thus creating pressure from both sides in a way. This could lead to a weakening in the bores since the pattern is the one of the strongest forces in RJ's world.
As for the form the DO is in, I can't really think of a good word to explain it. Because I think smoke is to vague of a word to explain it. I think it it can take any shape it wants and maybe it's influence on the world is like a dark smoke. But he has thought too. So visualizing him something satan comes to my mind. I've always thought that he could morph change shapes and influence people to do bad things if they were weak. That is exactly what the DO is doing isn't it. Haven't you noticed that people have vehemently been avoiding his name or acknowledging him if they walk in the light. They obviously can't be touched by the temptation. But once the seal is broken, then he gains a lot more power and it is easier for him to tempt people.
9
Lauric: 2005-08-12
Callandor: ***And it's unlikely he "surrounds" the Pattern, since he is still sealed away in his prison. ***
Maybe you're looking at the prison in the wrong light. Instead of being sealed inside of something, maybe instead he's sealed outside of the pattern. (Shields from Star Trek come to mind) Thus by "boring a hole" into his prison, Meilan actually bored a hole through the shield to the outside, letting part of the "fog" in to, as repeatedly said in the books "touch the pattern".
10
Callandor: 2005-08-13
**Maybe you're looking at the prison in the wrong light. Instead of being sealed inside of something, maybe instead he's sealed outside of the pattern. (Shields from Star Trek come to mind) Thus by "boring a hole" into his prison, Meilan actually bored a hole through the shield to the outside, letting part of the "fog" in to, as repeatedly said in the books "touch the pattern".**
Trust me, I've heard the idea before, and know what you mean. But the BWB would seemingly disagree:
**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
"The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are [i]ta'veren[/i] can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born [i]ta'veren[/i], must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern."
Now, you might take the arguement either way. Is the Dark One sealed into a "box" somewhere in the corner of... wherever, beyond the Pattern and has been forever? Or is the Pattern sealed off, and the Dark One can be wherever the heck he wants around it, but not past the barrier?
One point to this would seem to be that there was no Pattern or Wheel at the time the Dark One was sealed away; that came slightly afterwards. So, how could the Dark One be sealed away from something that isn't present, unless he is confined to some place first?
I agree with this method above, but I do know what you are describing.
11
Laughingman: 2005-08-16
"When the Seals finally break, and the pent up evilness is released, the Last Battle comes. Darkfriends get that extra infusion of evil which makes them all go public, and all hell breaks loose with Trollocs and Myrdraal coming ravening south, inspired by the new spirit of evil. The spirit of evil has been maintained all these years by small outlettings of this fog through miniscule holes in the cloth bowl which seals the conduit; enough to maintain the presence of evil in the world, but not enough to counteract the slowly growing volume of evil contained in the conduit. Every so often larger amounts of this gas of evil are released, leading to events like the Trolloc Wars or the Hundred Years War or other cataclysmic events."
I agree with you that the Dark One is NOT a physical being, anymore than the Creator is a physical being. However, He can certainly create physical beings, i.e. Shaidar Haran, the Hand of the Dark.
As for the Trollocs and Mydraal, led by Dreadlords (currently training in the Black Tower?) coming ravening south. Its coming, and I don't think they are going to wait for the Dark One to do it.
12
Yaga Shura: 2005-08-17
"However, He can certainly create physical beings, i.e. Shaidar Haran, the Hand of the Dark."
It can't actually be proven that the DO created Shaidar Haran, rathering than modifying an existing myrdraal.
13
JakOShadows: 2005-08-18
In my mind, I always thought of the prison being inside the pattern. That the pattern grew around the prison after it was made. That would be why his goal is to 'remake' the pattern. Because he can't escape it, so if he can't escape, the next best thing would be to make it look like his vision and not the creators. And I also think that when Shaidar Haran was created, he was given an essence of the DO, and that's what gives him extra abilities. But the catch would be that once the pieceo essence is given to the myrddael, it won't be able to join back up with the DO until the being it is embued in dies. I look at the forsakens connection to the DO much in the same, that it gives them extra evil power in someway.
14
Anubis: 2005-08-19
The Dark One is a God, and Gods are subject to their own laws of physics.
15
William Seeker: 2005-08-21
Regardless of whether he normaly has a physical body, DO's going to have to get one to fight Rand in the last battle. Even if it's a Fade or one of the Forsaken, the DO's going to be in control.
16
Callandor: 2005-08-21
**In my mind, I always thought of the prison being inside the pattern.**
I quoted the part:
**...and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation.**
Can't see any other way to think of it based on the books other than over "here" we have the Dark One contained in his Creator-made prison, and over "here" we have the Wheel, the Patter, and existance.
17
Callandor: 2005-08-23
**Regardless of whether he normaly has a physical body, DO's going to have to get one to fight Rand in the last battle. Even if it's a Fade or one of the Forsaken, the DO's going to be in control.**
One of the key ideas of the series, is that the Dark One and the Creator "choose" champions, humans that is, to play out their larger conflict. Rand obviously fulfills the role of the "Creator's" champion -- Moridin/Ishamael as Nae'blis obviously (currently) fulfills the role of the "Dark One's" champion. And the conflict between the two has been set up since book 1.
18
Ozymandias: 2005-08-23
I am coming back to my own post a bit late to respond to anyone's specific post, but I have to say that I don't understand some of the objections in a more theoretical sense.
Obviously I could, and probably am, wrong about the effects of this seepage into the Pattern, but the nature of the DO's prison and his actual form don't seem to be out of the question. In fact, it's quite possible that the DO exists as a sort of sentient fog. We've even seen an example that this sort of thing can exist. Twice. Mashadar is definetly sentient, in a crude way, as it can definetly sense prey and move towards it, even set traps and stuff. Also, the fog that attacks Rand and Min when they are in Darlin's camp also seems semi-sentient. At the very least, it knew enough to take shape and kill whenever someone came near. If these simple constructs can be considered alive, then imagine the DO, with unimaginable power; he can definetly be an actualy fog. And in response to the balefire comment; balefire works on this fog like apparatus, Rand uses it against both Mashadar and the Cairhein fog. But since the DO "fog" is so overwhelmingly huge, it would take a huge amount of balefire to destroy it. That satisfies that condition, and anyways, a fog or steam IS a physical entity, just not in the traditional sense. Anyways, thoughts are welcome
19
therobotbadger: 2005-08-24
** I quoted the part:
**...and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation.**
Can't see any other way to think of it based on the books other than over "here" we have the Dark One contained in his Creator-made prison, and over "here" we have the Wheel, the Patter, and existance. **
I think, even based on your quote, that it's very plausible that the DO surrounds the Pattern.
I see it as such: first, two antithetical god beings exist in a formless void. One decides he will bring something new into being and makes the Wheel, the OP, and the Pattern. This is, of course, the Creator, and the other is what we know as the Dark One.
It doesn't seem likely that the Creator could constrain this other god being into part of his Creation, nor does it seem plausible to say that the DO is somehow on one side of Creation (i.e. Creation is over here and the DO is over there), because how do you divide space that way? What IS all around the Pattern if it isn't surrounded by void?
The only way that all of this seems plausible to me is that the DO is "imprisoned" by being shut away from the Pattern, but still exists all around it. (And, by the way, when I say "around" I don't mean in a three-dimensional sense; the Pattern is the Universe, and if we're assuming a never ending cyclical time frame, this Universe must be static and is likely infinitely extended in all directions.) So I think the DO exists with no body (which I quoted earlier in the thread) and all around the Pattern, but in some higher-dimensional sense.
Pardon me if this is confusing, but I don't think there's any way I can talk about "where" the DO is without bringing in other spatial dimensions. After all, every point in the Pattern is supposedly the same distance from him, but he's shut away from the Pattern (thus not infused within it, the only 3D way that equal distance makes sense). He has to be in some 4+ dimensional space in order for that to work. Plus, circumstantially, RJ does have a physics degree, so I think he'd be not only able but eager to play with higher-dimensional space in his work.
20
Callandor: 2005-08-25
**I think, even based on your quote, that it's very plausible that the DO surrounds the Pattern.**
Sure it's possible, but it requires a very strange way to look at the wording.
**...and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation.**
Imprisoned outside of the Pattern, before it was placed, yet he surrounds it? Much more likely the Dark One was boxed into the "corner" and is always going to be there.
**It doesn't seem likely that the Creator could constrain this other god being into part of his Creation, nor does it seem plausible to say that the DO is somehow on one side of Creation (i.e. Creation is over here and the DO is over there), because how do you divide space that way? What IS all around the Pattern if it isn't surrounded by void?**
You answered it -- a void. There's nothing there. There's a big space.
**The only way that all of this seems plausible to me is that the DO is "imprisoned" by being shut away from the Pattern, but still exists all around it. (And, by the way, when I say "around" I don't mean in a three-dimensional sense; the Pattern is the Universe, and if we're assuming a never ending cyclical time frame, this Universe must be static and is likely infinitely extended in all directions.) So I think the DO exists with no body (which I quoted earlier in the thread) and all around the Pattern, but in some higher-dimensional sense.**
Once again, how could he be "imprisoned around" something, that wasn't in place when he was imprisoned?
**Plus, circumstantially, RJ does have a physics degree, so I think he'd be not only able but eager to play with higher-dimensional space in his work.**
Here's the thing: physics parallels or even drawing conclusions from them, don't mean jack. If you want anyone to believe and answer from a physical parallel, first answer whether the One Power is solid, liquid, gas, or plasma. When you realize that answer is impossible to get, no need to continue the physics parallels or even tossing them out to try to gain credibility.
