1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-17
Another benefit is that no one can sense the TP being used, so Ishy could do anything around anyone, and he could do so undetected. But the question you bring up is, if you are shielded from the OP, can you still channel the TP? Do we have any instances of this that we can pull from? Moghedien is a possibility. She is shielded by Nynaeve, why not just grab the TP and fight back?
2
Seeker: 2003-01-17
Could Moghidien use the true power? I know only Moridin can now, but back in the day was it a different story.
Ok, assume Moggy could use the true power. If you recall, Moghidien is terrified to use the true power - moreover, maybe the reason that Moridin is the only one who knows how to channel it. Moggy would probably get herself killed.
3
Anubis: 2003-01-18
Moggy mentions the true power being denied to her, stating that it could only be drawn with the great lords blessing.
4
Callandor: 2003-01-18
The Forsaken only use the TP when its absolutly necessary. As for when Moggy is shielded, maybe she was just arrogant enough to think that she could get out of it on her own and not have to use the TP. When shes trapped with the adam, maybe she couldnt do it?
Adams dont let you channel without permisson from your controller so maybe it might work on the TP also? Could add to the reason Moggy was so surprised once she was linked?
And Moggy DID try to reach for the TP once. She tried it when she was getting her mindtrap. But she said that it was denied. So I think from the text usage (I dont have page numbers right now) implies that she has used the TP before.
As for the Moirdin theory, I think that there is a limit one TP drawing.
5
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-18
Lets not kid ourselves. Moghedien was scared off her butt that she was shielded by Nynaeve. If she could have used the TP at that moment she would have, end of story. Of course, the argument that she couldn't access it because the DO wouldn't let her is still valid.
6
Phlaneri: 2003-01-19
If you are referring to when Nynaeve shielded her in Tanchico, If I remember correctly Nynaeve shielded her and then tied off the knot. As we know from Rand/LTT that a tied off shield can be broken and the person who tied it off is not aware of it being broken till they find it gone. I think this is what happened there. As far as under the A'dam I think the DO was not letting her channel the TP by then and would not have wanted to tip his had with the using of that power.
7
Anubis: 2003-01-21
The chosen continually mention that the tp is only used at great need and with great cost. There are two options. The chosen fear using the tp, they do not want to lose their personal power and pay the cost. (maybe becoming a full creature of the DO like moridin)
Or the DO, just says ha, you suck, you got captured. no TP for you. Which kinda defeats the purpose of having a TP in the first place. I mean, if you are going to take it away as soon as it becomes useful, then why bother in the first place?
8
Captain Cauthon: 2003-01-22
Have we even seen Moridin use saidin? I'm not completely certain, but I think that every time we see him use "magic", it's the True Power. That led me to theorize that the DO's making him use the True Power exclusively, maybe as a condition on his resurrection or as punishment for failing. He does have a lot more s'aa than anyone else than the Foresaken have seen. It might make sense that the DO would want to tie Ishy/Moridin closer to him since he was kind of on his own for 3000 years, and a dependency on the True Power would do it.
9
Callandor: 2003-01-22
The DO isnt forcing Moirdin to use the TP. He is using it out of his free will. In ACOS, I think, Moirdin (IE: The Watcher) spies on Nyneave and Elayne talking (going off memory here so if Im mistaken most sincerest apologies). And hes about to make a gateway and he says something like **He couldve made the gateway out of saidin, but he channeled TP and ripped a hole in the pattern and went through**.
Somthing to that extent. So he can channel saidin, he just chooses not to.
10
Captain Cauthon: 2003-01-23
I just checked that reference out, it's early in POD. Moridin doesn't mention saidin, but he does wonder about the possibility of acquiring an angreal usable by a man that he can use. I guess that makes it clear that he CAN use the One Power, unless it's also possible to draw more True Power by using angreals.
11
Callandor: 2003-01-23
Ok... I thought the issue of the angreals through logically.
Angreals seem to be made from the sexes that they enhance the power of. Example would be a male angreal is made from saidin, a female from saidar. And the big white book says that male angreals only work for men, female angreals for women. And it hints at both sex using angreals also.
So a TP angreal would have to be made from TP in order for it to enhance the TP channeled. And that means that they have to be made by a Forsaken or somebody who can channel TP.
Now the Forsaken have been flocking to find angreals before anybody else can so they can have the one up on there fellow chosen (we have examples from Sammael, Grendal, Lanfear, Asmodean, and many more).
Now the Forsaken seem to know A WHOLE CRAPLOAD of information about each other. Example, Demandred remarks about how nobody lived long if they thought Sammael was at ease, and that was a very VERY specific trait and he knew it.
So I think they would know if any of them knew how to make angreals or sa angreals.
So, if you put it all together, there seems to be no way for there to be a TP angreal or sa angreal in existence at all.
So this means that yes, Moirdin can channel saidin if he is looking for angreals.
Hence, it is his OWN choice to use the TP not the limitation of the DO.
12
Elder Haman: 2003-01-24
Are you sure saidin makes angreals for men and saidar makes angreals for women? How do we know it isn't vice versa- maybe angreals are made like you think, and sa'angreals are made vice versa- just like the Healing of severing. (Would explain why there are different words for different degrees of the same thing. Otherwise how do you tell when an angreal is now a sa'angreal.) Maybe it takes both saidin and saidar to make angreal and that's why the Forsaken aren't making them - don't trust each other enough to link.
13
Callandor: 2003-01-24
Big White Book page 22 "Both angreal and sa'angreal were keyed during their making for use by either men or women."
Now it would seem to me that it would be extremely difficult for a women to key an angreal or sa'angreal for a man to use. The sa'angreal idea is intriguing but to me a male angreal or sa'angreal must be made with saidin and a female angreal or sa'angreal must be made with saidar.
14
silverwolf: 2003-01-25
I think I remeber Moridin or Moggy thinking that no one can shield you from the TP (except the DO).
Also, Shaidar Haran channels the TP when no Myrdraal can channel. I know Shaidar Haran is the DO, but Rand couldn't channel in TFoH in TAR when Rahvin tried to change him into some kind of animal. While in Shaidar Haran form, the DO has to follow the laws of physics (he has to find shadows to travel back to Shayol Ghul in TLoC after watching Sammael and Graendal meet with the Shaido, though I don't know why he didn't just Travel back to Shayol Ghul). Anyway, the point is that we don't know for sure that you have to be able to channel the OP in order to channel the TP.
As far as Moggy not channeling the TP in Tanchico, she was probably too terrified to think of it, given that the Forsaken try not to use it any more than absolutely necessary. I think that either the adam kept her from using it when she was prisoner in TLoC, she thought she could escape on her own, or the DO wouldn't let her use it.
15
Elder Haman: 2003-01-25
Are you sure Shaidar Haran channels the True Power? I remember Moghedien saying Shaidar Haran blocking her channeling was a strange ability that didn't require channeling- OP or TP.
16
Callandor: 2003-01-25
SH seems to have some unusual abilities. He burned a spear to ash while watching the Shaido at the end of ACOS. He also seems to have created the "black globe of light" when bringing Graendal to heel in TPOD, Chapter 12, New Alliances, page 266. These abilities may indicate that SH can use the TP (the only alternative to the OP that we have seen thus far).
So it does seem that SH can use TP. Interesting thing is with SH and Moirdin. Ever think between them who is the boss? We have Moridin as Nae bliss and then SH as the spokesman for the DO. Who leads in that? So far at least it seems that they work together but when you come down to it who really leads??
17
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-25
I think that Moridin still retains the power and is in control over SH. Every other Forsaken that we get a POV from is scared s@#$%!*s by SH yet Moridin is still the arrogant SOB we know and love. He shows no fear in any of his POV's and is not troubled by SH as far as we can tell.
18
Callandor: 2003-01-26
Well dont forget Moirdin IS at least half if not more insane. Plus he was "pretending" to be the DO, even if he has learned a little lesson becoming Nae Blis most likely sent the arrogant Forsaken level even WAY higher. So Moridin might be doubting SH a little.
19
Elder Haman: 2003-01-27
I don't think there is so much as a sliver of disagreement between Ishmael and the Dark One, Ishmael is a true believer. Now the Dark One may have been using Ishmael with out him knowing, (maybe setting him up to fail so that other plans can succeed), but we don't know that.
20
Dedicated: 2003-01-28
I agree with Elder H. on this one. I believe that Moridin, the DO, and possibly SH (who I think is simply the Dark One's physical prescence) are the only one's who know the Shadow's true plans. Ishy's always been the DO's favorite pet (3000 years of service better get you at least a raise in pay or a promotion). (He also happens to be my favorite Forsaken and my second favorite character, but my bias doesn't come into my theories) It seems that Moridin and SH are really the only two granted access to TP. One more quick note on SH. Is he more powerful than Moridin? I don't mean who's higher in ranking under the DO, but who would win in a duel? They both use TP, but SH can cut of the True Source. Can SH aslo cut off the TP? Doubtful, but I would love to see these two supremely cool character in a battle.
21
silverwolf: 2003-02-09
After the chapter in CRoT when Shaidar Haran disciplines Mesaana, I thought that it was fairly clear that SH is the physical manifestation of the DO; is there any way to kill SH? Even if someone managed to balefire him, could the DO simply pour more of himself into the manifestation and keep going? This could present problems if SH begins assassinating main characters; I think Rand's safe as long as he has the Choedan Kal and Mat might be protected by his medallion, but the rest of the characters have no real defense against SH.
I kind of got sidetracked, but in answer to the question "Moridin vs SH: Who would win?" I would pick SH every time. I also think that SH is ranked above Moridin in the chain of command.
22
Anubis: 2003-04-02
I dont really know... i think that both are performing vital parts of the dark ones plan and are both not expendable..
really it would be haran because haran COULD not betray the DO and ishy could (but wont) so ishy wouldnt have tp and be blocked from the op... but it wouldnt ever happen
ishy is philosopher plan manipulate man, the darkones agent in the world. i favor a more him and ishy are working hand in hand. shaidar may have things he wants ishy to do but shaidar clearly helps ishy accomplish his goals. in the parts where shaidar is handing moggy off to ishy, there is no real definate feel of command... its alright im done doing what i do with her, now its your turn.. have at is m8, ill be off now.
