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ludra's Riddle
by Ahlspiess: 2003-01-15 | 6 out of 10 (7 votes)
Previous Categories: Aludra and Mat
"You tell me what use I may have for a bellfounder, and I will tell you all of my secrets" WH (pg. 333)
Finally, While reading CoT I think I've figured it out. The tubes used to throw nightflowers in the sky are similar to cannons. If you push a bell on it's side elongate the casing and what do you have?
It seems to fit Egwene's veiwing of Mat bowling in CoT.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-16
I don't think I have read any theories dealing with Aludra's riddle, but this seems plausible. Although, maybe Mat just isn't thinking about it, but he seemed pretty flustered. I wish he would have addressed this in CoT...are we really supposed to believe that Mat will find out in the next book...and somehow develop something by the time the LB comes (2 books away)...hopefully the next couple of books encompass more than a week or two.
Callandor: 2003-01-16
Old cannons were made by bellfounders. So yes the answer is that Mat would make a cannon.
Underhill: 2003-01-24
I agree that cannons are a pretty good answer, but Egwene dreamed that the men Mat was bowling over were bowled over by the thousands. I don't think that would be possible with just plain cannons. They would have to be loaded with actual explosives to achieve the results Egwene had dreamed of.
jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-25
Underhill that is not entirely accurate. If you don't believe me take a look at the movie "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson. You will see men getting knocked down just like bowling pins by nothing more than a rolling cannon ball. Exactly like Egwene's dream.
WinespringBrother: 2003-01-26
Cannons, mass produced and used in naval warfare, could have devastating results. All you have to do is put a few decent holes in the hull of your enemy's vessels to take them out in mass numbers.
Elder Haman: 2003-01-27
Load those cannons with grape shot and you'll tear holes in the ranks of pre-gunfire army formations.
Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-09
Not to mention the effects of cannon fire on mounted troops, massed formations of medieval infantry, and the fact that cannon fire, or small arms could easily mistaken as the shocklances of old. Quite demoralizing to an army or comander who had never experienced it.
harlekin: 2003-02-13
I think Aludra is working on the right mixture. While shopping with Tuon Mat sees her talking to a salt merchant and the merchant seems to be happy about something she told him.
To make explosives, you need charcoal, sulphur and salpeter which is a salt or can be extracted out of salt if I remember my chemistry correctly.
Dragons Shadow: 2003-02-16
Aludra already has the correct formula. She is an illuminator. She may just be trading "secrets" for material goods as she has done in the past.
whitewraith: 2003-02-20
Well now I think about it, couldn't it be of great use against the DO's armies during the LB, i sure would like to read about trollocs and myrrdraal being blown to smitheriens =)
jaellon: 2003-02-26
I think most here have agreed that Aludra's riddle and experiments will lead to the making of cannons, but no one has mentioned any ideas of WHY Aludra would personally be interested in making them. She isn't a soldier, and she doesn't appear to have any interest in becoming one.
Some possibilities, listed in the order I rank them in terms of their likelihood:
1. Build a better nightflower launcher - Aludra is in her heart an illuminator. I see her as seeking some way to re-organize the guild. But to do that, she needs something new to offer the guild, for two reasons: First, she needs to get people interested enough to follow her. Second, she needs to regain the confidence of her former guild-mates. Something that could launch a whole garden full of nightflowers would surely spark interest.
2. Pass the time - She may only be idly playing around with new Illuminator techniques, because she misses her former life, but without any hope of being a part of them again.
3. Seek revenge - Her guild is destroyed, and her former prestige is a memory. Having been forced to seek a living as little more than a beggar, she may be trying to build a cannon in hopes of hurting those who have hurt her.
4. Market cannons to various armies/nations - Battles are won by doing what the enemy doesn't expect or can't counter. She knows very well the dangers involved in dealing with fireworks, and is trying to work out a way for an army to make use of that in battle. If her invention is successful, she could once again be rich and prestigious.
Whichever possibility turns out to be the right one, Mat is no doubt a part of her plans, whether she intends him to be a guild-member, a shoulder to cry on, a guinea pig, or a customer. She has gone to great efforts to keep him interested in her, without letting him get everything he wants. Whatever her plans, I think Mat will eventually pick up on the possibilities of cannons in battle.
Shadowkiller: 2003-03-27
Mat has alredy picked up on the use of fireworks in battle. I can't remember where but at some point in time Mat is watching some fireworks and realises that if the tubes are pointed on an angle instead of vertically they could be used as a weapon. Aslo he knows about the potential of fireworks being used as weapon from when he used fireworks to blow a hole in The Stone of Tear.
Great Captain: 2003-03-30
It is definitely cannons. The bellfounders have a casting technique that reinforces the barrels to take the stress of firing. Without being banded the chamber will simply blow apart from the implosion/explosion used to project the missile. This was the biggest step forward involved with artillery.
darkone: 2003-04-10
I agree with that Mat will solve Aludra's riddle about the bellmaker and this will lead to the development of cannons. I also agree that it is Mat's use of cannons in battle that was indicated in Egwene's "bowling" dream.
I'd like to add, though, that I think it will be Mat's use of cannons that will be instrumental in defeating, not only the forces of the Dark, but also the Seanchan.
In CoT, a passage from the Prophecies is quoted -- "Fortune rides like the sun on the sky/ with the fox that makes the ravens fly/ Luck his soul the lightning his eye/ he snatches the moons from out of the sky"
To me this is an indication that Mat will be instrumental in turning back the Seanchan armies ("the fox [Mat] that makes the ravens [the Seanchan] fly") and that he might use cannons in achieving this feat (...the lightning [cannonfire] his eye).
One of the major Seanchan advantages in battle is their use of damane to deliver devastating ranged attacks against masses of troops. I think that with artillery pieces, Mat will be able to acquire the same thing for his forces, and thus achieve victory over Hawkwing's armies.
Brighid: 2003-06-01
I think there can be no doubt that Mat and Aludra between the two of them are sure to create a weapon of mass destruction using the technology presented by the fireworks. Isn't it true that at one point in the series, someone has a vision of Mat holding lightning in his hand? I think at the time whoever sees it, (is it Min?), says that whatever it means it will change the world. Kind of like introducing gun powder into a medieval society? While I agree that it'll be delightful to read about trollocs and myrdraal getting blown to smithereens, I kind of wish it weren't going to happen. As troubled as the WOT world is, (you know, what with the Dark One and people getting killed, maimed, tortured, eaten, balefired, etc), it's kind of innocent, too. Well. Hopefully they won't discover atomic power. Heh.
juitzhead: 2003-06-01
I don't disagree that Mat will use cannons in battle effectively, hence, all the viewings about a lot of men dying b/c of Mat.
however, i think credit should be given where credit is due. Aludra is the one who is developing the cannon and already knows the effect that it can have. Mat will just use them effectively.
Rand-althor: 2003-06-01
I personally hope that if Mat creates cannons, then they will either be one-shot cannons, not efficient enought to reload and shit, and there wil only be a few of them, or I would want him crating them to be a unended plotline. I would loose a lot of respect for Jordan if TG were pretty much the good guys, on a hill, blowing the enemy to peices for a book long, plus, I can't even see Jordan being able to write 500-600 pages worth of "mat put the ball into the cannon. He lit the fuse, it shot, mat continued to do this. Rand put the ball into the cannon. He lit the fuse, it shot, Rand continued to do this" Somehow, I dont think its all that plausable.
Therilon: 2003-06-02
Rand al'Thor, even now, "one-shot cannons" are used. In WWI and WWII, cannons had to be manually reloaded after each shot. At the level of technology that Randland has, they will probably be able to shoot once every 10 minutes (I think that the best times for loading a cannon, aiming, and firing is about 2 - 3 minutes).
As to creating a few of them, I think that that is the only possible method. Rand might have discovered the assembly line (when he got all the crossbow makers together to build crossbows), but I do not think that enough people are skilled enough at foundry to mass produce cannons.
of "mat put the ball into the cannon. He lit the fuse, it shot, mat continued to do this. Rand put the ball into the cannon. He lit the fuse, it shot, Rand continued to do this"
Well, it is hard to write about any battle in those terms. "Mat lifted his ashanderai, hit a seanchan, lifted his ashanderai again, hit enougher seanchan."
If anything is put that simply it will become boring.
Mairashda: 2003-06-02
I believe, the Iluminators always knew of a possible military application of their knowledge. aludra got the idea pretty quickly after she set her mind to it. but i guess there is more money to be made from fireworks in a rather peaceful land than from building cannons and firearms, always risking that this knowledge might leak to outsiders. oh, additionally... the impact of gunpowder on this world will not be as devastating as it was on ours, considering, that the one power is capable of destruction on a comparable scale...and beyond.
it took a long time for cannons to be turned into an effective artillery allegedly cannons were first used during the siege of metz in 1324 and it took more than a century for them to be refined and effective enough to make a real difference in battle.
as for portable firearms... the first of those were so heavy that they had to be supported by special (hooked) pikes. even later models that could be fired by one man alone took a long time to reload- pikemen guarded the "artillerist" while he did that...
sounds like a job for the legion of the dragon?
Callandor: 2003-06-02
Cannons have already been used in Randland, although unintentional. Rand fell with the firework laucher in Cairhien in TGH and destroyed a large chunk of hte Illuminators chapter there. That is were Aludra first got the idea in my mind.
Weird Harold: 2003-06-02
Therilon said, "...even now, "one-shot cannons" are used. In WWI and WWII, cannons had to be manually reloaded after each shot. At the level of technology that Randland has, they will probably be able to shoot once every 10 minutes (I think that the best times for loading a cannon, aiming, and firing is about 2 - 3 minutes)."
I think Rand Al'Thor meant muzzle-loading cannon, and I can't see anything else being developed.
However, Muzzle loading Cannon of Napoleaonic Vintage were capable of maximum fire rates around 3 shots per minute, or about the same as Muzzle Loading muskets like the English "Brown Bess."
I think Mat's memories will spur him to devise methods and training that will roughly match Napoleanic or US Civlil War artillery crews. That is slightly unrealistic,because it will require Mat to compress about 1300 years of cannon development into a few months, but this is a Fantasy Novel and he needs Napoleanic Artillery to fulfill Egwene's vision of him bowling hundred of men down with fireworks.
Also, Juitzhead has the right idea -- Aludra will "invent" cannons and Mat will devise the tactics and training required to employ them. Aludra already knows all of the basic principles required to bypass that 1300 years of development and Mat's Ta'veren effect will put her onto the exact design needed on the first try.
Brighid: 2003-06-03
I wonder if that part of the ter'angreal prophecy about Mat 'giving up half the light of the world to save the world' is related in any way to this discussion?
desperate: 2003-06-11
I think that Brighid hit on the correct concept for the interpretation of the prophecy here - "weapon of mass destruction". If fireworks are thrown into massed formations, it will be like a howitzer firing a chemical energy projectile (ie HE round). If the round contains the explosive cased in a shell, it will be like a British napoleonic Shell round (aka a jaffa of death). Cast iron on the outside, explosive in the middle...The other option of course is a cannon.
Mat's contribution will be in the employment of these weapons. The Germans in WWI were initially the only ones who recognised that enfilade fire (ie from the side) got the most out of a machine gun. In the same way, Mat will employ the cannons/ shell rounds in the most efficient way.
Grizzly thought, but then Mat has some grizzly opponents lined up in his future (once he gets sorted out by his Mrs to be...) What do you reckon? Hope everyone is well.
Oatman: 2004-01-06
Correct me if im wrong but a bellfounders primary job is to make bells correct? It would hardley seem likely that Aludra would ask a question where the answer would almost be part of the reward. It is therefore my opinion that the answer to the question is that Aludra woiuld use a bellfounder to aquire a bell, and that in researching the bellfounders job Matt will come up with the idea of the cannon or whatever.
Anubis: 2004-01-06
mat seems to have already devised fairly decent firearms tactics. he devised the army of the dragon with bashere, shields and crosbows... add some cannon and you have a nifty situation goin on.
Khaos: 2004-02-12
Also there is nothing to say that channeller's will not be involved in the production/reinforcemnet of the cannons.
As for the riddle there is no concrete evidence that Aludra has come up with the idea to build cannon. If this were the case with the collapse of the illuminator's guild I think she would long since have solf the idea to one of the many factions in randland.
The answer she is looking for may simply be for building a launcher for the largest fireworks and that Mat then combines his earlier idea of turning them on their side and using them as weapons.
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-07-29
I agree that Mat introducing firearms to the world may be "giving up half of the light of the world" It would give outlet for groups that oppose AS (Children of the Light) the ability to really present a danger and become more of a power.
I also think this will be one of the open ended plot lines that RJ will leave us with.
Zader: 2004-07-29
I hate to rain on every ones parade about Fireworks, cannons etc. In a world of magic, or OP, fireworks developed in to weaponry, is a one shot deal. The problem you would face from cannon is, it would become more dangerous to yourself than the enemy. How do you stop a channeller from igniting the powder in your canon. Also what is to prevent a channeller, stopping up the barrel of your canon with a plug of air. These are just some of the obstacles you need to overcome to make canon, guns, etc a viable option.
lucky with dice: 2004-09-14
ok, its clear that mat will create some form of basic cannon, which will have devastating results and probably a high failure rate. y bother? i dont know much about the effective range or accuracy of early firearms, but in the series we already have a long range projectile weapon in the form of the huge crossbow that can "hurl a spear a mile" that was made by someone at one of rands schools and we have already seen that that works fairly well. I would expect the crossbow to also be far easier and cheaper to produce. so Mat, stop what your doing before you take someones eye out.
Callandor: 2004-09-14
**I would expect the crossbow to also be far easier and cheaper to produce. so Mat, stop what your doing before you take someones eye out.**
Then explain why the world's deadliest weapon, was developed from a cannon based firearm, instead of a crossbow. There are advantages to cannons.
Anubis: 2004-09-16
how do you keep channelers from igniting your gunpowder? same way we do. you keep the stuff hidden... dont leave it out in the open.
minalth: 2004-09-16
You just hit the nail on the head Lucky With Dice
I didnt realise it until i saw the eye and the bowling prophesys together, but to make these cannons, mat will need to do some experimenting at least, and there will likely be mistakes, mat will loose his eye/eyes whilst experimenting
has anyone thaught of this before? I think it fits quite neatly myself, and the 'to save the world' part? mat will have to make the cannons to win the war against the shadow.
The crossbows could not launch huge explosives a mile, and would probably take longer to wind back than it would take to reload a cannon...
minalth: 2004-09-16
Also, the hordes that the DO will have ammassed will only be taken down to 1/9 their number after their encounters with explosive cannonballs, and will still almost win the battle with their 10 to one odds that they will have when they finaly reach Mat's lines of pikemen :)
I also hope that someone will finally think of good uses for gateways, one channeler and an artillary crew could wrech havoc opening small gateways at 1000m and shooting, then closing the gateway and once they have reloaded, opening another from another side and shooting again, if this was kept up while the DO's armies were on the march, they would get wiped out as long as the dreadlords couldnt attack back easily at that range with the power...
Ozymandias: 2005-02-17
the problem with the theory of naval warfare is that we know the shadow does not employ navies, at least directly. We have to wonder whether or not the northwestern border of the Blasted Lands is guarded, because that provides another route for a modern equivalent of the Hundred Companions
tai shar nebraska: 2005-07-08
as i read the books, it seemed to me that the illuminators protected their secret so closely not only for the economic benefit of a monopoly on fireworks but also because they realized the deadly capabilities of their technology, and they wanted to protect the world from that kind of destruction.
In this context, cannon/explosive creation makes perfect sense as the answer to Alludra's riddle. If Mat were knowledgeable about cannons and other explosive weaponry, as he would have to be in order to solve the riddle, then it would only be a matter of time before he developed functioning weapons (he could receive help from the academy). Consequently, trying to keep the illuminator secrets would be useless, and Aludra could tell Mat everything with a clean conscience.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-08-26
The answer to Aludra's Riddle is very simple.
The key to the riddle is in the wording. She does not ask what an Illuminator can use a bellfounder for. She asks what she, as a person, can use a bellfounder for. The answer is very simply that she would use a bellfounder to make her a bell.
The problem with this theory is that she would not use a bellfounder to make a cannon. That is what Mat would use a bellfounder for.
I suspect that Olver, or some other seemingly innocuous character will probably figure it out.
I assumed this was obvious.
Callandor: 2005-08-27
**The key to the riddle is in the wording. She does not ask what an Illuminator can use a bellfounder for. She asks what she, as a person, can use a bellfounder for. The answer is very simply that she would use a bellfounder to make her a bell.
The problem with this theory is that she would not use a bellfounder to make a cannon. That is what Mat would use a bellfounder for.**
If it was just that, you'd have an arguement, except that Mat sees Aludra talking to a salt merchant in Crossroads. Saltpeter (rock salt) being a key ingredient to gunpowder, combined with the knowledge that bellfounders, in early cannon history, were the only ones capable of casting such a large amount of bronze leads to the simple conclusion that makes absolutely no sense otherwise: Aludra is making a cannon.
Anything else combined with these two make no sense. Aludra may simply see a way to send something higher into the sky for fireworks, and Mat can turn it into a weapon of destruction, but there isn't a doubt that she's making a cannon.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-08-27
**If it was just that, you'd have an arguement, except that Mat sees Aludra talking to a salt merchant in Crossroads. Saltpeter (rock salt) being a key ingredient to gunpowder, combined with the knowledge that bellfounders, in early cannon history, were the only ones capable of casting such a large amount of bronze leads to the simple conclusion that makes absolutely no sense otherwise: Aludra is making a cannon.**
While rock salt is used in gunpowder, it is also used in fireworks. That is why Aludra would be talking to a salt merchant. The bellfounder part has nothing to do with Aludra as an Illuminator.
And, once again, she is an Illuminator, rogue or not. She wouldn't work on weapons, or even care much about them. She would have no reason to develop a cannon.
I reiterate that she uses a bellfounder for the same thing that anybody else uses a bellfounder for: bells.
JakOShadows: 2005-08-27
I like the way this theory is going and it does make logical sense all the things that have been brought. It just seems like that it won't be the most effective at the LB, but rather that will be its first use. It will do a lot of damage even being as unrefined as it is, and it will in the future change the way battles are fought. But in no way will it be an instantaneously working solution like some of ya'll are thinking about. Andi if Rand unites the world which will be likely, he'll have more than enough men to fight all the hordes of trollocs that will brought against him.
Callandor: 2005-08-28
**While rock salt is used in gunpowder, it is also used in fireworks. That is why Aludra would be talking to a salt merchant. The bellfounder part has nothing to do with Aludra as an Illuminator.**
Fireworks being the original genesis of cannons, I'd strongly disagree.
And why would Aludra be making fireworks still, when the Seanchan have a known dislike for them, due to the Sky Lights being better, and, for the better reason, of the Illuminators in Tanchico needing to be stormed to make Seanchan sway hold?
**And, once again, she is an Illuminator, rogue or not. She wouldn't work on weapons, or even care much about them. She would have no reason to develop a cannon.**
Once again, she very well may have absolutely no reason to want to make a weapon, just trying to make her fireworks more effective in launching. But that is what the bellfounder is needed for: to make a cannon, whatever use Aludra originally wants to use it for.
**I reiterate that she uses a bellfounder for the same thing that anybody else uses a bellfounder for: bells.**
Alright then. Answer this question, since it is Aludra's riddle, so you say: why would she need bells? What on earth would an Illuminator need -- with bells?
**But in no way will it be an instantaneously working solution like some of ya'll are thinking about.**
Since Mat has already made the discovery of the machine gun-like lines (it has a specific name, but I can't think of it) for crossbowmen -- IE: one line fires, another fires, another fires, a fourth keeps reloading for continuous fire -- even if the cannons are one-shot ones, they will be able to do a good deal of damage in and of themselves. And, the most deadly part of them: they're not known as a weapon yet. Surprise!
Astra-al: 2005-08-28
What Aludra wants a bellfounder for is to make something to launch the fireworks out of. If you go back and read in book 2 when Rand, Loial, and Lanfear enter the Illuminators Guild.
TGH The Shadow in the Night, Page 399-
"It meant making their way between the racks, and Rand held his breath every time he brushed against one. The things in them shifted with the slightest touch, rattling. All of them seemed to be made of wood, without a piece of metal."
This passage makes it appear that they don't have metal launchers of any sort as Rand says it is all made of wood. The benefit of a metal launcher would of course be being able to launch them higher, and also launch better fireworks.
Aludra has lost business since the damane have arrived because their 'sky lights' are better than her fireworks. So she wants to get a metal tube to launch the fireworks into the air so they can go higher into the air and be larger. She's hoping that she can get business from the Seanchan.
Then of course Mat will find out, and knowing of the destructive power of fireworks, think to tilt it to shoot the fireworks at enemies, thus, the cannons.
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-08-28
Back in The Dragon Reborn (I think), Mat used a firework to blow a hole in the side of the Stone of Tear...so he knows their explosive power.
But explosive power comes from the confinement, rather than the gunpowder itself.
If you just light gunpowder, it burns...nothing more. If you wrap that same gunpowder in very very tight paper, it explodes lightly...fireworks. If you put that same powder inside metal...you get an explosive...cannonshells & bombs.
I doubt Mat's made the connection to this aspect of 'fireworks' yet. After all, he's only seen fireworks high in the sky - I doubt you can 'measure' explosive power from that...and the single one he let off (ie no true comparison is able to be made, that I can see)
Still, I agree that he'll discover cannon, if not perhaps the concept of cannon that we know.
I've never seen Mat line up for a pitched battle, and against the Seanchan this is the last tactic I think he'd use.
So he's more likely to develop a kind of portable mortar, rather than a cannon.
Traveller: 2005-08-28
I would just like to point out to the last point from JakoShadows:
I think it very unlikely that Rand will have enough men to outnumber the Trollocs, otherwise there would be no shock and suspense as the reader finds out that there are millions of Trollocs who have been being bred over the last few years, and that Rand's army is outnumbered atleast ten to one. You know, its just the way it is with fantasy epics.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-08-29
**Alright then. Answer this question, since it is Aludra's riddle, so you say: why would she need bells? What on earth would an Illuminator need -- with bells?**
You are entirely missing the point. At no point in the riddle does she even mention an Illuminator.
She says, "You tell me what use I may have for a bellfounder, and I will tell you all of my secrets".
Note that she says what use may she have for a bellfounder. The fact that she is an Illuminator is completely irrelevant to the question.
JakOShadows: 2005-08-29
Traveller: I didn't mean to say that Rand could overwhelm, but I was just making a point that from the way things are going Rand will have a massive army. And now that I think about it, the blight has been quiet for a while so they might be organizing a massive army. I just thought that ya'll were automatically assuming that Rand would not have an army to match the trollocs without thinking it through.
And I do think that the bell has something to do with the illuminators. Why else would she ask the question if that's not what its going to lead to? Otherwise it would seem too complicated to make sense.
Callandor: 2005-08-30
**You are entirely missing the point. At no point in the riddle does she even mention an Illuminator.
Note that she says what use may she have for a bellfounder. The fact that she is an Illuminator is completely irrelevant to the question.**
Ah, right. Right. So, Aludra being an Illuminator, and that being her life is totally irrelevant to the question?
Answer the question for it is quite relevant.
Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-01
Well, here is all I am going to say on the subject, then I am going to leave you guys to your wrong answer.
Since when has Robert Jordan ever made a riddle that has a basic premise? The only time that he does that is when he is intentionally misleading you.
Anyways, this should be settled by the end of Knife of Dreams, so we will know soon enough.
Callandor: 2005-09-01
**Since when has Robert Jordan ever made a riddle that has a basic premise? The only time that he does that is when he is intentionally misleading you.**
When has RJ ever given another riddle?
And, since you're backing out, I'm assuming you simply do not have an answer at all to why Aludra, an Illuminator, would want a set of bells or a bell or whatever.
Sorry, but "wrong answer" hardly applies here.
Dumai Wells: 2005-09-02
you guys are forgetting one thing. Mat is going to marry Tuon. We know from KOD prologue that ~edit: Spoiler removed~. Well, we can assume that Suroth will be taken down, Tuon will become the rightful empress and ally the Seanchan with Rand. I believe the bellfounder might come from the seanchan. Mat will make the connection between the two and hence you have your cannons.
Ozymandias: 2005-09-02
Just a general point about using cannon against Seanchan ships. It wont work. There a plethora of reasons as to why this idea is entirely farfetched, and unless Jordan totally abandons any semblance of reality, they couldnt possibly be used in naval warfare. First off, learning how to outfit ships to hold and fire cannon is a trial-and-error process which would take more than the small amount of time they have to perfect. Training enough people and maing enough cannons to have an effect on naval warfar is also difficult. Remember, a ship needs like 8 cannon to be relatively effective, and to build a fleet of these is a long and expensive undertaking. Thirdly, damane would be more than capable of countering this. A damane would just set fire to the ship, or put a plug of air in the portholes, and that would, instantaneously, render the entire purpose effective. I firmly believe that the end point of the riddle is cannons, but the idea of using it against a seaborne enemy is totally ridiculous. And another military point; even in land based warfare, the cannon will be totally useless as an offensive weapon. A cannon is mainly a siege engine, and when faced with the huge numbers that will be thrown at them, a cannon will have little effect, other than the psycological one.
To me, the idea of cannon just seems to be one more of the numerous technological advances that the end of the age is bringing about (like the train, telescope, and various farming methods currently being developed in Cairhien).
dchambers59: 2005-09-02
Submission Virgin here. Don't rip me to shreds. Or do -- maybe I'll like it.
Why the debate over whether Mat or Aludra will be the primary developmental force in oue new weaponry. Mat is a general. He recognizes and can put to effective use any weaponry in his path, but he has not been shown to be particularly creative. Aludra, on the other hand, ias been trying to "light up the world" with her matchsticks (excuse me . . . firesticks...). RJ has already identified her as a creative type -- the kind who can forge something new from previously unrelated ideas. So, all you Mat RAh Rah types . . . :P.
udernation: 2005-09-05
I'm sorry guys, but i seriously thought this was a foregone conclusion - haven't we discussed this before. I'm pretty sure i'm not smart enough to think of it myself. I was surprised when Tam said he hadn't heard it before.
Callandor: 2005-09-06
**And another military point; even in land based warfare, the cannon will be totally useless as an offensive weapon. A cannon is mainly a siege engine, and when faced with the huge numbers that will be thrown at them, a cannon will have little effect, other than the psycological one.**
Yeah, which is exactly why the cannon was never used in military manuvers...
The cannon is important in Randland for the same reason it was important in the age of chivalry -- it takes what was the ability of only the knights (Aes Sedai mainly in this case; though of course there are "regluar" knights) and gives them to anybody (peasents).
It's a major redirection of tactical means. Of course it takes a long time for people to realize the total usage of them -- but that is why Randland has it's overall greatest general (IE: Mat of course) in such a proximity to them in their development.
**He recognizes and can put to effective use any weaponry in his path, but he has not been shown to be particularly creative.**
False -- Mat single handedly invented the rapid fire system (having multiple lines of troops fire, reload, fire, reload, contiunally), and for his creativeness, Mat by himself figured out how to open the a'dam while any of the supergirls couldn't.
Tamyrlin: 2005-09-06
Well, to be fair, I made that reply almost three years ago, some time in 2003...since then we have probably heard a bunch of theories on the subject.
Ozymandias: 2005-09-06
But, Callandor, cannon DONT. The true historical innovation which takes military might from the nobles and put it in the hands of commoners is already in use. The longbow. A cannon, especially the early ones, required (historically) highly trained siege engineers and a team of assistants to set up and create. In the greatest siege of its early days, that of Constantinople in 1492, only three were even used. They were far from common, far from simple, and even further from being widespread. Even the gun did not put true power into the hands of the commoner until the 19th century. If you need weeks to months of training to learn to efficiently use a gun or weapon, one cannot consider it a massive advantage for the common man. The longbow, the Aiel, and the Power are what are truly rendering the nobility of Randland useless. As well as a few other innovations like Mat's use of multi[ranked fighting (Mat is most definetly styled after Enlightenment generals; its his trademark, almost). A cannon would be useless in Randland, in terms of Tarmon Gaidon. There is no siege to fight, and field cannon most likely havent and wont be developed yet. May as well say theyre gonna use trains for troop transport (which is in, relatively, the same stage of its developmental history as the firearm at this point)
Anubis: 2005-09-06
**And another military point; even in land based warfare, the cannon will be totally useless as an offensive weapon. A cannon is mainly a siege engine, and when faced with the huge numbers that will be thrown at them, a cannon will have little effect, other than the psycological one.**
any tactician who cant use a defensive weapon as an offensive one isnt worth their salt
silverwolf: 2005-09-23
Why are many of you considering TG a defensive battle? We know trollocs will attack--just set up defensive positions in the way of their armies and use the cannons as defensive weapons. Simply pack the bottom with gunpowder, stuff in some rocks as grape shot, and rip apart the attacking lines. Alternatively, use it to launch explosives in the same manner that the catapaults were used in the battle for Emond's Field.
Even if TG is an entirely offensive battle, and you're arguing that you can only use cannons defensively, have any of you ever heard of towering/tower-walking? it's a video game term for slowly expanding a ring of defensive structures as part of your offensive push. It takes time, and it's expensive, but it allows you to move forward while being constantly on the defensive.
tai shar nebraska: 2005-11-06
some in this thread have questioned mat's ability to use the cannon in battle, if indeed the riddle refers to a cannon.
mat has that reincarnation-of-a-totally-awesome-general thing going for him. he probably would figure out how to use the cannons effectively without much thought
jrowe: 2005-11-25
it's plain old fashioned revenge. Several postings refer to Aludra as if she were still part of the guild of Illuminators. That's missing the point from her persepective. there IS NO guild of illuminators. In fact she considers herself to be all that's left of the Guild. There were only ever 2 chapter houses both of which are destroyed and many illuminators dead. She believes herself to be the last of them. I doubt that's entirely true, I'm sure some others survived but the point is that she believes the guild secrets now only exist in her and the Guild is completely destroyed and she blames the Seanchan and would do anything to destroy the Seanchan and it now actively working to develop what she knows into a method of killing Seanchan. She didn't just try to join some army or solicit help from other countries or anything mundane because A. she's not rich or politically important and B. the Damane are a great equalizer of armies. her secrets, she believes can lead to an equalizer of damane...and she'll be very very right about that. With weapons designed by Aludra and some designed by inventors from Rand's Schools, and the military leadership of the greatest general in the world (Matt Cauthon, High Prince of Seandar),the Seanchan armies will suffer greatly. but Aludra's dream of having Tanchico back the way it was before the invasion will never happen. The Ever Victorious Armies can be beaten but the farmers ans shopkeepers and ordinary citizens of Seanchan who have made their homes in the west will never be removed, they'll adapt and cause the locals to adapt to them and a new Tanchico will exist but it'll never be free of Seanchan.
LeafBlighter: 2006-05-24
Jrowe: If i remember correctly in book three, Mat saves Aludra from fellow illuminators, this means that more then 1 survived. this means that she isn't the only one alive, but the only one that knows what to do(make cannons) to have revenge against the Seanchan
Darelas: 2006-06-09
The Cannons are obvious, but might I add another theory to the cannons? The Steamwagon has been perfected, has anyone else thought TANK? Or at the Very least the Steamwagon would be used to transport the cannons? Just an Idea, there HAS to be a reason that the Steamwagon has been mentioned so many times, and that it was said that a certain number had pulled 50 wagons to Tear. Just an Idea. Feel free to discuss.
snakes-n-foxes: 2006-06-09
Steam engines aren't particularly useful in tanks...requires heavy armor, making it too heavy to move. Even in WW1 with petrol/diesel (not sure which) engines...the early tanks only moved at 4mph.
Secondly, a tank requires a cannon...any cannon that Mat/Aludra invents will be way to heavy to put in a tank...the recoil alone (of an early model cannon) would probably render an early model tank inoperable after the first fire....plus how would you reload it? Early cannons and guns were all frontloading weapons - the muzzle is outside, while you are inside.
charlesghopkins: 2009-08-10
Ok,
I know this is an old posting, but here is my first reply as well. I think that all of you keep focusing on single shot cannons when you should be focusing on a shotgun like shell set up. What you get is a much simpler cannon set up. You get a larger bore (ie bell) and the ability to bowl over a larger number of men. Also, you get a reload time that better serves the mission of as much carnage as possible.
Just my .02
Paaran Disen: 2009-11-01
I think that it isn't that far from cannon, to cannons with fireworks, to rockets, to rockets packed with explosives, to missiles. If Mat aquires missiles, that will definantly be blowing over enemies.