1
Tamyrlin: 2004-09-08
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
i don't think it says anywhere that the Ajah's must dress in their colors on formal occasions. The fact that most do is custom, not rule.
We don't know when the summons came for Mesaana, which she either ignored or was detained, so it's hard to pin it down exactly to when the Black Ajah hunters had Talene in their clutches.
Also, right before Talene was captured by Seaine, Perava & company she was pointedly digging after why the Ajah heads were meeting with each otehr. And we know from Alviarin's p.o.v. that she had the Black Sisters out hunting down that information. Why would Mesaana follow that order? Whom among the Sitters in the hunt would she need to maintain pretenses with?
i've seen theories accusing Laras, Silviana, Danelle and Shevan, but this is the first i've seen pointing to Talene.
2
SugarBullet: 2004-09-08
I love this theory and I'll tell you why. I love it because it justifies giving the black ajah hunt several chapters all their own. If you, as I do, still have faith in jordan's ability as an author, you have to hope that there is a hidden justification to the time spent in tertiary story lines. Otherwise, that storyline has seemed like a likely candidate for heavy editing in order to move the overall story along.
Kudos to you!
3
Callandor: 2004-09-08
**How would Mesaana know about Elaida making reference to a punishment for Alviarin from the Mistress of Novices unless she was one of the Sitters in Elaida's rooms a few moments before?**
Alvarin has said that Mesaana has known about information that she and Elaida talked about when they were in the Amyrlin's room alone.
**TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: Prologue - Lightnings
"Tell me what happened, child." The voice was crystal chimes. On her knees, Alviarin repeated every word that Elaida had said, though she wondered why it was necessary. *In the beginning she had left out unimportant bits, and Mesaana knew every tune, demanded every word, every gesture and facial expression. Plainly she eavesdropped on those meetings.* Alviarin had tried to work out the logic of it and failed. Some things did work to logic, though.**
How would she know about that? Channeling is a viable option. So, she doesn't have to be present, to know.
**And she must be green since she is wearing a green silk dress and all of the sitters were wearing shawls (suggesting formal ajah attire). (CoT pg 506)**
Aes Sedai do not always follow their colors. Moiraine herself has not always done this, and countless others.
Also, you can easily argue she should be Yellow or Brown, since she has "elaborate bands of bronze" on it. The clothing seems to be a real red herring to a lot of things.
**I cannot think of any other reason why Mesaana would have ignored a summons except that she was captured by Seaine and friends and swore on the Oath Rod to obey them.**
I can. She didn't want to die.
**Her bonds to the Dark One were broken by the Oath Rod in PoD and all she has left are the oaths to obey the Black Ajah hunters.**
Then how did she get away from the other Aes Sedai that captured her? They wouldn't just let her walk around!
Another thing:
Talene was asked "Are you Black Ajah?"
MESAANA WOULD NOT SAY YES TO THIS!
She is a Chosen, not a pitiful Black Ajah.
Plus, Mesaana wouldn't likely be duped into going with the other Sitters, and if they pressed her, she would've killed them and fled.
Also, it's a bit presumptuous to say that the Oath Rod would break her bonds to the Dark One. The only way we have seen that is what Rand did to Asmodean, and the Forsaken (Lanfear) did not think that was even possible, and binders were in their day and age. Surely, they would be a little more cautious it their own time of a binder, if they broke the bonds. Only reason it works on the Black Ajah, is because they actually swear new oaths on the Oath Rod.
4
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-09-09
I could go for this, if you consider that Mesaana knew she was caught, and figured that pretending to Black Ajah would be better for her than admitting to be a Forsaken. She could then lie about being Black Ajah (Lanfear laughed at that idea, but Mesaana's circumstances are more dire).
Under constant observation, Mesaana could not escape without being halted by a word from her captors, and exposing herself. As it is, she has little influence, but could direct the searchers where she desires, and leave some Black Ajah hidden.
I'd suggest rereading the Seaine/Pevara sections for Talene's quotes to see if she could justifiably be lying or not, as well as Demandred/Forsaken quotes for info on Mesaana's reluctance to join them at the cleansing. Is Mesaana unable to come, or is she choosing not to?
I think this is an awesome theory, as it can wrap up some dangling plot threads and tie them together. Well done!
5
a dragonburned fool: 2004-09-09
There are too serious problems with the suggestion, that Talene is to be Mesaana.
First I would mention that even Mesaana after the Oath Rod oath not to lie will be uncapable to lie. Talene said that Elaida is a Black Ajah. Talene really beleaved it. Mesaana couldn't believe such thing by any way. Mesaana is too well informed what is the relation of Elaida to the Black Ajah.
Also it is not directly shown in the books, but the 5 Sitters definitely asked Talene to say them the name of every BA she knows. That is clear form the later thoughts of Yukiri about the AS from Talene's hearth, all the BA she said that she knew. Alviarin was not among them, and Mesaana knows that Alviarin is a Black Ajah.
Also after the oath to obey to the 5 Sitters and after the as complete questioning they apparenty asked her, eventual Mesaana would reveal at least something that would be not probable for a simple black sister, so the BA-hunters would be impressed and that would be seen, if Mesaana's identity would be not revealed.
No way for the Talene hypothesis.
6
SugarBullet: 2004-09-09
Okay, dragonburned fool has unconvinced me. Man. It can't all be for nothing! I'd love to hear some opinions as to what purpose these chapters could be serving. It'd keep me off of prozac!
7
WinespringBrother: 2004-09-13
I think if Mesaana was Talene, she would have escaped somehow. She would probably have been able to send orders to one of the black sisters in their dreams, obtain the oath rod, and give it to "Talene" to get her free of those oaths. None of that would violate the oaths she took.
8
Dorindha: 2004-09-14
I liked this at first read but (I'm being slow today) the "are you black ajah?" part ruins it - Mesaana is NOT BA.
9
ranman38: 2004-09-20
I believe Mesaana will be a Brown sister. She is a teacher/researcher. She would naturally gravitate towards that. She is also power hungry. Who is the highest ranking Brown sister? I will research as well.
10
jaellon: 2004-11-23
** Okay, dragonburned fool has unconvinced me. Man. It can't all be for nothing! I'd love to hear some opinions as to what purpose these chapters could be serving. It'd keep me off of prozac! **
Right now the BA has it really nice. They get the inside scoop on just about everything that goes on in the Tower. Rumors of the inquisition will eventually leak out, and those as-yet-uncaught BA sisters will have reason to flee.
I think that will set the stage for the Last Battle to occur, since they will no longer have White Tower intrigue remaining as a tactic. With that gone, the DO will have to resort to all-out war before the White Tower can repair distrust and rally the nations.
11
Callandor: 2004-11-24
**Right now the BA has it really nice. They get the inside scoop on just about everything that goes on in the Tower. Rumors of the inquisition will eventually leak out, and those as-yet-uncaught BA sisters will have reason to flee.**
Hardly. They are there, but their communication system is breaking down.
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 21 - A Mark
It was no surprise to find the Tower's wide, tall corridors empty. A few scurrying servants with the white Flame of Tar Valon on their breasts bobbed their bows and curtsies as she passed, but they were no more use, no more important, than the drafts that made the gilded stand-lamps nicker and rippled the bright tapestries hanging on the snowy white walls. Sisters kept to their own Ajah quarters as much as possible these days, of course, and unless she encountered a member of her own heart, even seeing an Aes Sedai she knew was Black Ajah would have been useless. She knew them, but they did not know her. Besides, she was not about to reveal herself to anyone she did not have to. *Perhaps some of those marvelous instruments from the Age of Legends that Mesaana talked about would allow her to question any sister immediately one day, if the woman ever actually produced them, but now it was still a matter of ciphered orders left on pillows or in secret spots. ~What had once seemed almost instantaneous responses now seemed interminably delayed.~* A stocky bald-headed serving man making his bow gulped audibly, and she smoothed her features. She prided herself on her icy detachment, always presenting a cool unruffled surface. In any event, scowling her way though the Tower was going to get her exactly nowhere.**
12
DarkTempest: 2004-11-25
Could Massena be Verin. High ranking brown ajah. Uses compulsion. Unknown motives. Uncertainty is if we have seen her elswhere when she was in the white tower.
13
Callandor: 2004-11-26
**Could Massena be Verin.**
No. Not a doubt. We've had Verin's POV and we have had Mesaana's POV. Not alike. Not even similar.
14
minalth: 2004-11-27
verin talks about using clumsy compulsion that she invented by combining novice's wilder tricks... hardly sounds like fs to me
'The first [eavesdropping weaves], the Tower did not care much about. Even a wilder who had gained considerable control on her own quickly learned that as long as she wore novice white, she was not to so much as touch saidar without a sister or one of the Accepted standing over her. Which did tend to limit eavesdropping rather sharply. The other trick, however, smelled too akin to forbidden Compulsion. Oh, it was just a way to make Father give her dresses or trinkets he did not want to buy, or make Mother approve of young men she ordinarily ran off, things of that nature, but the Tower rooted the trick out most effectively. Many of the girls and women Verin had spoken to over the years could not make themselves form the weaves, much less use them, and a fair number could not even make themselves remember how. From bits and pieces and scraps of half-remembered weaves created by untrained girls for very limited purposes, Verin had reconstructed a thing forbidden by the Tower since its founding. In the beginning it had been simple curiosity on her part. Curiosity, she thought wryly, working at the weave on Beldeine, has made me climb into more than one pickling kettle. Usefulness came later.'
'Of course the thing was not truly Compulsion as ancient texts described it. The weaving went with painful slowness, cobbled together as it was, and there was that need for a reason. It helped a great deal if the object of the weave was emotionally vulnerable, but trust was absolutely essential. Even catching someone by surprise did no good if they were suspicious. That fact cut down its usefulness with men considerably; very few men lacked suspicion around Aes Sedai.'
she doesnt know proper compulsion, she can't be fs.
15
wattah: 2004-11-28
There is no evidence that Verin is really Mesaana. There are some troubling questions about Verin, but nothing to indicate being Forsaken. Pointing to her apparent use of Complusion as evidence has two flaws: (1) Moghedian used Compulsion instantly and without showing strain, so we can assume Mesaana would have roughly the same ability. In contrast Verin's weave is time consuming and leaves her feeling drained.
(2) Given the imperfect nature of Verin's 'Complusion' weave and its secrecy, I think it is a trick of the power Verin developed before coming to the Tower, like those known to Moiraine and Liandrin.
16
monkey: 2004-11-29
i'm begining to sway to the idea that verin is mesaana, or originally saine tarasind,
'hard headed, practical and intellegent, though often taken for dreamy because of her introspection...
appearences were never important to her..'
these have also been regular methods of describing verin.
Also, whilst not exactly crucial evidence, moiraine warns rand about her, and she has a pretty good track record in routing out and spotting people mascerading as others.
17
Dannil Lewin: 2004-11-29
Verin can't be Mesaana because Verin doesn't actually use compulsion, but some weave that approximates the effect of compulsion...if she were Mesaana she could cast the web of compulsion in a second or less, like all the other Forsaken do instead of taking an hour or so to set it.
18
Callandor: 2004-11-30
**i'm begining to sway to the idea that verin is mesaana, or originally saine tarasind,**
Are you listening to yourself?
1. We have been given Verin's POV.
2. We have been given Mesaana's POV.
3. We have Mesaana sufferin under hardships in CoT, while Verin is at Tear
4. Verin has a rich history that has appeared unbroken in any of her POVs.
5. Mesaana was sealed in the Bore for 3000+ years.
Where is the swaying???
19
Manetheren: 2004-12-01
I know we've put this theory to rest already, but I just wanted to add one more thing I'm surprised noone else brought up; that being, there were three, maybe four, can't really remember, Aes Sedai in that room with Talene. At the FIRST sign at what was going down, and there were indications Talene was getting pretty nervous, Mesaana would have fried every one of them. Mesaana ain't Black Ajah. She's Forsaken. Even if you want to believe that the four AS could link and shield a woman of her power, and I'm not too certain of that, they didn't. She had more then enough time, and certainly possesses the skills, to have killed two of them before the other two could even move. She'd have to flee the Tower, probably, but put against being bound to an Oath Rod to admit you serve the Dark One, there's no question what she'd do.
20
Laughingman: 2005-08-16
And just to add my two cents worth. Mesaana's illusion was stripped from her to reveal a tantalizingly familiar face. Alviarin knows Talene and knows her well, so it wouldn't be a face that was right on the tip of her tongue.
A couple of other questions remain. Why DID Mesaana not go to Shayul Ghul when she was summoned. I know Callandor said 'She didn't want to die.' But that just doesn't ring true to me. There's something missing in that, because its not the only summons/meeting she's missed.
So, to add to this string. Mesaana is NOT any of the Aes Sedai that were visibly in the room with Elaida. Remember a couple of different weaves. Inverted weaves, to hide a shield of invisibility. The weave that hides a woman's ability to channel. Used on Moghedian by Elayne and Nynaeve.
With both of those being used, it opens the field completely to those that are Aes Sedai, and maybe a cook, maybe Laras, killed by Mesaana and then mimiced with illusion, we've seen Lanfear do that with Else. We know that Mesaana's ability to channel is being hidden. Its stated quite clearly during Alvarian and Mesaana's first introduction.
So now that I've tossed that on the midden heap. *Waits patiently for Callandor to poke holes in it.*
21
Callandor: 2005-08-17
**With both of those being used, it opens the field completely to those that are Aes Sedai, and maybe a cook, maybe Laras, killed by Mesaana and then mimiced with illusion, we've seen Lanfear do that with Else. We know that Mesaana's ability to channel is being hidden. Its stated quite clearly during Alvarian and Mesaana's first introduction.**
1. Laras has a history that is unbroken as far as we know running back 20 years to New Spring: the Novel.
2. If Mesaana was posing as her, she'd have to copy Laras, and her personality, and her habits, and all the subtle ticks that she does that make up the person known as "Laras" to perfection. This is incredibly hard to do, let alone consistantly on a daily basis. Far easier to pose as one of the returning sisters to the Tower from retirement or exile or long study, since their history wouldn't be as constant as someone like Laras whose always been at the Tower.
3. Laras has no power in her position, except over scullions. Mesaana wouldn't be controlling the Tower nor to be in the power of being able to return the stole to Alviarin (as she says she could do in Crossroads), nor would she have the weight she would have as an Aes Sedai to send out her orders and plans.
It's quite unlikely that Mesaana is anyone save an Aes Sedai in the Tower, and if she was going to go to the trouble of impersonating someone, you would think it would be a high ranking Aes Sedai, a Sitter, or an Ajah Head, not the head cook.
22
Anubis: 2005-08-18
Well the thing is, Talene is not channeling, therefore can not be maintaining a mask of mirrors. She appears to be ageless. Therefore she is bound by an Oath Rod, and has been for some time. Therefore she is not a Forsaken. And besides. Forsaken getting captured accidently by random Aes Sedai? Bit of a let down dont you think?
23
JakOShadows: 2005-08-18
I do believe Maseena is posing as a sitter or a high ranked Aes Sedai to have that knowledge, but I don't think it's Talene. The fact that Talene admitted to being BA is evidence enough in my mind to disprove this. And Lara's seems a very bad choice to be a forsaken in hiding. Or she could even be someone highly ranked in the internal structure of an ajah. Someone in that position could find out everything that went on in the meetings with the sitters. Actually, I tend to like that idea better, since she remains more low key to other ajahs. And within her ajah, she could have a lot of power to get her way. It would be tempting to say Red, but any ajah with a powerful lead within would be ideal.
24
Niella: 2005-08-19
*Talene was asked "Are you Black Ajah?"
MESAANA WOULD NOT SAY YES TO THIS!
She is a Chosen, not a pitiful Black Ajah.*
I dont think they asked Talene in those words (sorry no quote) i think they said "Are you a Darkfriend?) So she would have to say yes even if she was a forsaken. .(which i am not convinced of)
25
Anubis: 2005-08-19
The only advantage i could see to posing as Lars would be the ability to poison the hell out of the White Tower. Course thats the kind of thing that would only work once. And as far as im concerned it is a super freaking sick idea. This is why im not evil. Because I would win.
Appetizer: Candied Peaches
Main Course: Peach glazed salmon.
Dessert: Peach Cobbler
Beverages would include: Peach wine, peach shnopps, and peach juice.
26
Ishamael: 2005-08-20
Alviarin kinda recognized who mesaana was..now if she was Laras..she wouldn't just kinda recognize her..she would have said something..so those of u still convinced that she may be laras..get a clue and stop reading while u are drunk
27
Laughingman: 2005-08-20
I wasn't too tricked to my own suggestion that Mesaana could be Laras the cook. Though it would still explain a lot
1. Her face is familiar, but not immediately recognizable. Going from fat to thin will do that for you.
2. I keep hearing that semirhage is Anath, someone that Tuon grew up with. The forsaken are completely capable of assuming identities, right down to quirks, etc.
3. Laras helped Min get Siuan and Leane out of the Tower. I think we can safely say that that surely helped Chaos on quite a bit. Without Siuan and Leane's influence in Salidar, the White Tower would probably be whole by now.
4. Shrugs, why not a 'lowly' cook. Moghedian did it more than once, Lanfear did it with Else Grinwell and whats her face in the Aiel Waste, and she can certainly cruise about the tower at will in that disguise.
This is all pretty much devil's advocate stuff. But on the other hand, I haven't seen anything better. The only thing I know of that totally shoots it down, is that Mesaana is seen wearing silks, and Laras probably wouldn't be seen doing that. Not to mention that Laras' absence from the kitchen on a regular basis would be another problem. But yea, like Anubis said, wouldn't it be truly sick for her to pop up like that.
28
Trahelion: 2005-08-20
I'm not really sure about your idea, it sounds logical, but I'm re reading the book right now to think about it. However, in response to some people saying that it's not law for the sitters to wear their formal attire in attendance to the Amrylan, but custom, remember that in the White Tower, custom is as strong as law.
29
Mappo: 2005-08-21
"2. I keep hearing that semirhage is Anath, someone that Tuon grew up with. The forsaken are completely capable of assuming identities, right down to quirks, etc. "
Laughingman, I don't know where have you heard that but the books state quite clearly that Anath replaced Tuon's previous Truthspeaker about two years before Tuon's first appearance in WH. So Tuon clearly didn't grow up with her.
I still think Laras might turn out to be Mesaana, mainly because Alviarin is convinced Mesaana is Aes Sedai and when a character in WoT is convinced of something he or she is wrong most of the time. :) But I admit that her behaviour around Min doesn't really fit with the Larasaana theory. But if most AS are obsessed with clothes, why not one of the Forsaken, too? :)
As for Talene is Mesaana - it makes no sense to me. She could have simply overpowered Pevara and the others rather than getting captured by them. And of course she could have just denied being Black Ajah.
30
Trahelion: 2005-08-21
I just realized that when the black ajah put someone to the question they have to say that they are not black ajah...well Messaana is not black ajah, therefore she wouldn't be caught at that. Also, you can hide the fact that you can channel but it never says that you can reduce the amount of power that you can channel, so that when people are near her they would sense the amount of power that a Forsaken could weild and not that of a Green sister. So Messana must be hiding as someone who can not channel or her identity would be known.
31
Anubis: 2005-08-21
**So Messana must be hiding as someone who can not channel or her identity would be known.**
No... you can hide part of your ability to channel. A person who is of Lanfears strength could hide it so people thought she was Egwene level or lower. Of course if she channeled really strongly people would get suspicious and the game would be up.
32
Callandor: 2005-08-21
***Talene was asked "Are you Black Ajah?"
MESAANA WOULD NOT SAY YES TO THIS!
She is a Chosen, not a pitiful Black Ajah.*
I dont think they asked Talene in those words (sorry no quote) i think they said "Are you a Darkfriend?) So she would have to say yes even if she was a forsaken. .(which i am not convinced of)**
Please, read it again. Winter's Heart, Prologue, Snow, page in paperback: Saerin asks Talene "Are you of the Black Ajah?" (sue me, I forgot the "of") Talene answers very simply "I am."
Mesaana would not answer this. She is not of the Black Ajah, never was, and never will be. She's a Chosen.
**The only advantage i could see to posing as Lars would be the ability to poison the hell out of the White Tower.**
Very true, but surely if Mesaana wanted to do that she could find other means ;)
**1. Her face is familiar, but not immediately recognizable. Going from fat to thin will do that for you.**
But the thing is that there is not size or height change remarked upon by Alviarin.
**2. I keep hearing that semirhage is Anath, someone that Tuon grew up with. The forsaken are completely capable of assuming identities, right down to quirks, etc.**
False. Anath was a recent appointment to Truthspeaker, a strange occurance (even by the Seanchan) since Tuon's original Truthspeaker fell down a flight of stairs and was killed. Anath came about around roughly two years ago.
**3. Laras helped Min get Siuan and Leane out of the Tower. I think we can safely say that that surely helped Chaos on quite a bit. Without Siuan and Leane's influence in Salidar, the White Tower would probably be whole by now.**
Yeah, that's great, but the Forsaken didn't have the Lord of Chaos order yet. They were, for the most part, playing for their own advantage.
**4. Shrugs, why not a 'lowly' cook. Moghedian did it more than once, Lanfear did it with Else Grinwell and whats her face in the Aiel Waste, and she can certainly cruise about the tower at will in that disguise.**
Moghedien is Moghedien -- Mesaana isn't Moghedien.
Lanfear was Keille to stay by Rand and keep an eye on him. She was acting as Else only for a short time, and seemingly for work on a Forsaken plot (since she ultimately led them to Tear), and check up on Mat. Mesaana is using the Tower as a power base.
**I still think Laras might turn out to be Mesaana, mainly because Alviarin is convinced Mesaana is Aes Sedai and when a character in WoT is convinced of something he or she is wrong most of the time.**
You'll have to count the instances for me then, since we've seen the main characters be dead on right on instances as well.
**Also, you can hide the fact that you can channel but it never says that you can reduce the amount of power that you can channel, so that when people are near her they would sense the amount of power that a Forsaken could weild and not that of a Green sister. So Messana must be hiding as someone who can not channel or her identity would be known.**
False. Lanfear posed as Else Grinwell -- she wasn't a non channeler, she was a novice, and Lanfear walked around without any suspicion due to her channeling ability. You can change the percieved amount you can channel, as well as hide ability completely.
33
El Bogarto: 2005-08-22
Hey Trahelion,
Logically, a channeler can both hide the ability altogether, OR appear to be weaker than they are.
For example Lanfear posed as Else in the tower.
Everyone oohed and aahed over the supergirls ability - and none of them could compete with Lanfear for raw strength in the power - if Lanfear as Else hadn't "toned down" her ability, the disguise wouldn't have worked.
