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Home | Index | Archives | Help
esaana's Identity Crisis
by Tigraine: 2003-01-16 | 5.67 out of 10 (12 votes)
Previous Categories: Who is Mesanna Masquerading As?
...Mesaana is revealed without the weave. She's in a green dress with the same scrollwork as Shaidar Haran arrives, but she looks scared to Alviarin given the situation. However, note that although Danelle isn't a popular woman by any means, she isn't completely unknown, especially by Alviarin.
Alviarin does not recognize her at all, though. In fact, she apparently doesn't seem to be ANY sister of importance, if she's even a sister at all, because Alviarin obviously doesn't recognize her. Here is Mesaana's unadultered description:
"Startled, Alviarin found herself with her begging hands stretched up toward a blue-eyed woman of flesh and blood, garbed in bronze-embroidered green. A tantalizingly familiar woman who looked just short of her middle years. She had known Mesaana walked the Tower disguised as one of the sisters, though no Chosen she had met showed any sign of agelessness, but she could not match that face to any name."
Mesaana seems familiar, but nameless at the same time. Perhaps she's -not- a sister? Maybe a familiar maid? Or a secretary, like Halima? Or maybe Alviarin is just stupid and can't remember Danelle.
Regardless, it seems that yet another theory is either blown out of the water or very close. So... the question now rises again. Who is Mesaana masquerading as?
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-16
I think you have laid out the necessary groundwork for additional theories. It might be good for all of us to revisit all theories that have been written about this subject before and see if they work in consideration of this new information. I wonder if Mesanna is someone akin to Demandred. She has a persona, but she really is unknown and unseen, working through her proxies in the tower. Maybe we don't know her, even though Jordan is describing her clothes...maybe those descriptions will become applicable in the next book.
pointyman: 2003-01-17
er.... Mask of Mirrors anyone? Why does her true face have to look anything like the person she is masquerading as? Although I do seem to remember a quote from Moghedien saying that it helps if the persons features are akin to those she was copying (or I could be imagining that as I can't find it :).
WinespringBrother: 2003-01-18
A mask of mirrors wouldn't work in Shaidar Haran's presence any more than Mesaana's silvery illusion, since it also a weave of saidar, although inverted. And why would Shaidar have left her fake face on her when he stripped her of everything else anyway?
It seems that she is masquerading as a non-Aes Sedai, without the ageless face, though she could be a novice or accepted. If Alviarin still thinks that Mesaana was disguised as a sister, then she is not thinking too clearly ("She had known Mesaana walked the Tower disguised as one of the sisters").
pointyman: 2003-01-19
That was not the point I was making, WSB. The first post in this theory states that Alviarin did not recognise Mesaana once her Illusion weave has gone. But the point I am making is, why should she recognise her? She could (and common sense would say, should) be disguising herself with a MOM when she is walking around the Tower in her alter ego. Why does the fact that Alviarin has seen her true face mean that she can't be masquerading as a sister? I am not saying she is definitely a sister, but I don't think this represents anything approaching conclusive evidence that she is not.
Tigraine: 2003-01-19
Actually, pointyman brings up a good point. How do we know that Mesaana isn't using an Inverted Mask of Mirrors as her disguise? She could normally look like how we see her stripped from the Power, but she moonlights, so to speak, as Danelle using Mask of Mirrors. When she visits Alviarin, though, she simply undoes her Mask and puts on her silvery Illusion instead.
It sounds credible and believable to me, especially since she -was- the head of a spy network in a past Age.
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-19
Okay, I have a few issues and questions. Would a tied off weave be canceled out by a visitation by Shaidar Haran? Obviously, he performs some type of shielding, but would this necessarily change a MoM? The MoM is a tied off weave, whereas the weave Mesanna was using that was preventing Alviarin from seeing her was stopped because she was actively channeling when she was shielded or cutoff. Also, I read Alviarin's description of Mesanna, that in fact the woman she saw before her DID have an ageless face, which would suggest that Mesanna still was using a MoM...and I quote, "She had known that Mesanna walked the Tower disguised as one of the sisters...but she could not match that face to any name." In other words, everyone, Mesanna was looking at a woman that she still considered to be in disguise. If she was looking at Mesanna's true face that was not ageless, she wouldn't bother trying to tie the face to a name of any sister in the Tower.
Callandor: 2003-01-19
Is it possible to use the MoM to create the ageless look? I mean we haven't had anyone to my knowledge use the MoM to make the ageless look, unless I'm forgetting something.
If there are any references someone find page numbers :-).
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-19
Mask of Mirrors - I am quite sure it can.
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 11 - Ideas of Importance
"Unthinking, he ran a hand across his jaw, feeling his own face, but that was not what Min saw. Anyone looking at him would see a man inches shorter and years older than Rand al'Thor, with lank black hair, dull brown eyes and a wart on his bulbous nose. Only someone who touched him could pierce the Mask of Mirrors. Even an Asha'man would not see it, with the weaves inverted. Though if there were Asha'man in the Palace, it might mean his plans had gone further awry than he believed. This visit could not, must not, come to killing. In any case, she was right; it was not a face that would have been allowed into the Royal Palace of Andor unescorted."
A Mask of Mirrors is an illusion, which can be anything, but it is dispelled when touched.
Tigraine: 2003-01-21
I think my idea got skewed by bad wording. My apologies. What I meant is this:
As normal, Mesaana is "just short of her middle years" with "blue [eyes]". This is how she looked in the Age of Legends and how she REALLY looks now.
However, seeing that Mesaana must remain in an almost constant disguise within the White Tower, she would probably masquerade with a constant tied off, Inverted Mask of Mirrors weave on her face so that she would appear ageless. The books state that it is always easier to create a Mask if the features you are trying to mimic are similar to your normal features. This hints that although Mesaana could easily look totally different in disguise, it would be much easier for her to Mask herself as someone with similar features, thus the reaction by Alviarin that Mesaana's face almost had a name to match. It's similar, but not exact.
Finally, whenever she visits one of the Black Ajah, she seems to enjoy hiding both her real features and her Masked features under a weave of Inverted Illusion that makes her look like liquid silver.
When Shaidar Haran arrives, her Illusion weave fades instantly. It would probably be reasonable to assume that if she were wearing a Mask as well, it would, too, fade. (Given this is just an assumption...)
So.....
We can probably assume that Mesaana's disguise would also have a middle-aged feel, either with or without agelessness, and she wears bronze-embroidered green on more than one occasion. Now, we just have to pinpoint who wears bronze-embroidered green and possibly has blue eyes. Maybe Danelle has these features? I don't know...
Tigraine: 2003-01-21
Quote from the Shadow Rising "The Truth of a Viewing"
"...Danelle... her big blue eyes not dreamy at all..."
She has blue eyes. If there was ever a red-handed thief, Danelle is she. Lets just hope this isn't another red herring instead of a red hand.
pointyman: 2003-01-21
I knew I hadn't imagined that quote about the similarity of faces.....yay. I agree, it makes most sense that the face we see in COT is the true face of Mesaana... to which her AS disguise looks somewhat similar... hence Alviarin's quote.
Galadriel: 2003-01-23
There is one important fact that no one has bothered to point out yet. Mesaana CAN'T be masquerading as an Aes Sedai despite what Alviarin thinks, because of one simple reason. Mesaana was disguising her ability to channel.
"But Alviarin could not see the weaves that made the Illusion any more than she had felt those the woman had used to arrive or cast the room in shadow. For all she could sense, Masaana could not channel at all!"
It makes sense for her to do this, since as a Forsaken, she would be far and away more powerful than any other Aes Sedai, and any Aes Sedai would be able to sense how powerful she was. Therefore, like Moghedien, Mesaana wanted to stay "under the radar" so she masked her ability to channel and is probably pretending to be a maid or something. Alviarin probably finds her familliar in the way of someone who sees a servant, but doesn't really see a servant.
Actually, I'm surprised someone like Alviarin, from the White Ajah didn't think more logically about it. It seems rather obvious to me.
Tigraine: 2003-01-24
The Forsaken also know how to partially mask their ability to channel also, though. Take Lanfear, for instance. When she is disguised as Else Grinwell, she looks the same and has the same potential, so she must have found a way to mask part of her ability, but not all of it. Mesaana is probably doing the same.
Elder Haman: 2003-01-24
Exactly Tigraine - Alviarin thinks this out and decides the only reason Mesaana is hiding her ability to channel is because she is disguised as an Aes Sedai.
Callandor: 2003-01-24
Thats correct. The Forsaken know how to mask there ability to appear as novices, Accepted, or Aes Sedai. They also can totally rid themselves of any **apparent** channeling. So they can appear as a common person to Aes Sedai or Asha man around.
Besides Lanfear in the tower we have Osan gar in the BT mascarading as Dashiva, Asmodean and Lanfear in the waste (although they were totally masking their ability), and Moggy in Tanchico as the servent (even though again hiding all ability).
Plus in CoT, we learn that Egwene learned how to do this exact trick from Moggy while she was captive.
Galadriel: 2003-01-24
With all due respect, I think you are making a false assumption about partial masking of the ability. There is no evidence in the books that supports that notion. To take your examples point by point. Osangar wasn't masking at all. He was strong from the first time Rand met him, and there is no evidence to show that Balthamel wasn't on the low end of the Forsaken power scale. Of course, nothing says he wasn't as powerful as Demandred or others, but keep in mind that Rand's ability to judge strength in power came on slowly. If he were able to judge accurately early, then why did he make Taim hold all he could when he met him? Maybe it's not possible for men to judge strength unless the other guy is holding all he can of saidin. Moghedien, Asmodean, and Lanfaer all fully masked their ablility to channel, which offers no proof of any partial masking ability. Finally, the best and most compelling argument is with Lanfaer and Else Grinwell. It is true that Else, when she met Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene was Lanfaer in disguise. It was also her when she bumped into Mat. However, the true Else Grinwell was, at one time actually at the tower. Just not during those instances. The interesting thing about those moments was there was never an Aes Sedai around at the time. Just the girls. At that point in the series, Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve didn't even know to recognize the ability to channel in another person. This is evidenced by Egwene's realization 2 books later by her inexplicable feelings of kinship with Aviendha, and Elyane's with the Sea Folk windfinder. So it's reasonable to assume that none of them would have the skill to judge Else's ability to channel. Lanfaer could have easily been masking or not, and simply avoiding Aes Sedai in the tower. Not difficult for someone who can Travel with inverted weaves, or enter Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh.
silverwolf: 2003-01-25
Lanfear's masquerade as Else Grinwall doesn't prove that the Forsaken can partially mask their abilities (remember that the masking of abilities only applies to women since men can only sense the presence of the OP in another man, not the ability to channel). The only people we know to see Else while Lanfear is in the White Tower are Mat, Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve. Obviously Mat can't sense her ability to channel, and the other three hadn't learned how to yet. Also, it seems that Lanfear probably dropped the MoM as soon as she was out of sight (though this doesn't explain why Mat saw her wearing the MoM for no apparant reason), possibly because the Aes Sedai knew that Else had been sent home weeks before! I think Lanfear had her ability completely masked the entire time she was in the tower.
pointyman: 2003-01-25
Although I agree with the whole 'partial masking' of the ability to channel, I must point out that men find it difficult to gauge the strength another man has, but can seemingly compare on how much a man is currently holding ( but not their maximum).
Mairashda: 2003-02-03
Who came up with the idea that touching somebody who wore a mask of mirrors would lead to that weave being destroyed? I cannot remember ever reading anything about this? all that I see stated is that the illusion is gone, meaning that if something feels different from the way it looks, you are more inclined to trust your sense of touch. (if somebody could provide me with quotes proving me wrong, i'd be a happy convert...)
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-03
I encourage investing in a premium account, as a bonus you will receive access to the search engine...and then you can get these answers on your own. :) :)
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 11 - Ideas of Importance
Unthinking, he ran a hand across his jaw, feeling his own face, but that was not what Min saw. Anyone looking at him would see a man inches shorter and years older than Rand al'Thor, with lank black hair, dull brown eyes and a wart on his bulbous nose. Only someone who touched him could pierce the Mask of Mirrors. Even an Asha'man would not see it, with the weaves inverted. Though if there were Asha'man in the Palace, it might mean his plans had gone further awry than he believed. This visit could not, must not, come to killing. In any case, she was right; it was not a face that would have been allowed into the Royal Palace of Andor unescorted."
So are you converted? :)
Elder Haman: 2003-02-03
Okay- I read on the board a theory that put Mesaana in the Rebels camp as Theodrin. I don't believe this, (I think Danelle is the culprit) but it made me think of other possibilities.
What about Sharina Melloy? If Mesaana is in the Rebel camp, she is a more likely suspect. Consider-
1)Sharina is stronger than any AS, even Nynaeve
2)Sharina is the one who develops the new method of oganizing novices
3)Mesaana was a teacher
4)Sharina always obeys the rules- a good habit for a spy
5)Mesaana was a spy in the AofL
6)Sharina keeps a close eye on Bodewin
However, there are some points against Sharina:
1)Mesaana is suppose to be in the Tower- thus my suspicion of Danelle- unless Mesaana is both of them! (Shouldn't be too hard for the Dark One's number one spy- how often do people see Danelle?)
2)Sharina has broad hips, Mesaana is thin.
Thus, I still think Danelle is Mesaana. If Sharina is one of the Forsaken- I'd have to go with Cyndane. In WH isn't Cyndane described as short and with broad hips? Also Lanfear was always the strongest female channeler ever- (until Aliva). And the AS seem to think Sharina could be "as strong as it was possible to be."
pointyman: 2003-02-06
Tamrlyin, your quote on the MoM in no way indicates that the weave is destroyed. It simply states that the weave is 'pierced' when someone touches it.
I would imagine it like this. An opaque sheet of water falling down, with rocks on the other side - you can put your hand through and feel what is there, but the action of doing so does not allow you to see all of the rocks, or alter the sheet of water.
silverwolf: 2003-02-22
The weave of the MoM isn't destroyed when someone touches it; the person touching merely feels the real thing rather than the illusion. This means that the illusion can be detected through touch, but it can't be destroyed.
wilder: 2003-04-20
I don't know if this has been brought up somewhere else, but regarding partial masking of the ability to channel, Moiraine thinks to herself about Lanfear "Some said she had really been the most powerful of the Forsaken, next to Ishamael,...but had kept her powers hidden." (tGH p. 107)
While this is not conclusive proof since it is hearsay "some said," it appears that RJ is at least introducing the possiblity of a female channeler hiding her true strength. Also, Moiraine doesn't follow her thought with "but of course, it is impossible to hide your true strength in the OP." which, although an argument from silence again suggests that partial masking is possible, if not widely known.
Dorindha: 2003-04-21
I agree that "pierce" doesn't mean the same as "destroy", but either way, Mesaana's disguise will not be very different from her real looks, which is why she looks "tantalisingly familiar". I am also of the opinion that what Alviarin saw was her real looks, and her "normal" look round the tower is an inverted MoM.
Her disguise might not change her actual features at all, just gives her an ageless look, smoothing away any clues to her actual age. Moggy has showed how it is easier to keep it up if it is more similar to natural looks, and Nynaeve and Elayne in Ebou Dar showed why there is no point in doing a full MoM (inc clothes) as it is so hard to keep up. I do suspect Danelle, mainly because I feel Mesaana should be someone we've come across already, and Danelle still seems the most likely suspect.
rubbernilly: 2003-05-06
wilder...
your quote of Moiraine's thinking about Lanfear does not prove partial masking. The quote just as easily supports the fact that Lanfear walked around with her ability to channel constantly and completely hidden to hide her ability. Then, your indulgence of Moiraine's "argument from silence" does nothing to aid your point...
stromgard: 2003-07-16
In Nynaeve's test for Accepted she encountered (another?) Sharina, who was a very vile, sly and brutal sadist and assassin. Couldn't Sharina be Semiraghe - if Sharina in the angreal is similar to Sharina in the real world, of course. Personally, I think that it is a previous turning, like the portal stone or the Wise Apprentice rings in Rhuidean...
Weird Harold: 2003-07-17
Stromgard said, "In Nynaeve's test for Accepted she encountered (another?) Sharina, who was a very vile, sly and brutal sadist and assassin."
You're confusing the evil replacement wisdom, in Nyneaves seccond pass through the rings, with "Sharina Sedai" who was Nyneave and Lan's Aes Sedai advisor in a reborn Malkier in her third and final pass.
imfunny81: 2003-07-17
people, pay attention...
the reason that mesaana's weave was dispelled was because of the specific power that shaidar haran has... similar to mat's foxhead medallion, he can destroy weaves...
it's not because alviarin touched mesaana that the MoM was dispelled. The quote about Rand and his 'ugly' getup involved just regular touching...
as for 'partial masking' one's ability to channel, Galadriel is completely right, no one has seen evidence of partial blocking...
and men can only gauge another's strength when they are holding as much saidin as they can...
finally, Semirhage is not Sharina... Semirhage is definitely Tuon's Seeker or whatever she's called...I think her name was Anath...
juitzhead: 2003-07-17
just to clarify the issue on wether the tied off MoM is unraveled in SH's presence.
From CoT:
“She's been very useful,” Mesaana said, not sounding afraid at all, in a voice that tugged the edge of recognition, “and now I will have to kill her.”
obviously Alvi has seen the REAL Mesaana and now has to kill her so that she will not be recognised.
To use Tom Cruise's famous line (altered):
"I can let you see me, but then id have to kill you"
Callandor: 2003-07-18
**as for 'partial masking' one's ability to channel, Galadriel is completely right, no one has seen evidence of partial blocking...**
Bull crap! Lanfear went around the WT as Else in the TDR. Only explaination as to why Egwene saw her dash around a corner and there was Lanfear standing there (without the girls feeling the major surge needed to make a gateway when they were just a few paces away).
So yes, you can partially mask your ability, and totally mask it.
Rhodric: 2003-07-18
when lanfear was Else, we never saw her around AS, only around nyn, eg, and elayne (and mat). at the time i don't think that any of the super 3 could sense the ability to channel in a woman if she was not channeling.
i don't think there is any evidence to suggest partial channeling
Rhodric: 2003-07-18
whoops!
that should read "partial masking of channeling", not "partial channeling".
juitzhead: 2003-07-20
hopefully this will clear the partial masking issue. Osangar did it when he infiltrated the BT.
Quote from ACOS:
"He will do," Rand said, but he did not sound sure himself.
“Dashiva is gaining his strength rapidly, but his head is in the clouds often as not. Even when it isn't, he
is not always entirely there. Maybe he's just a daydreamer, and maybe the taint on saidin is touching his brain
already. Better for you to chose Torval or Rochaid or—"
Taim did not know who Dashiva really was. So if hes 'gaining' his strength then it means you can mask your potential.
Aramina: 2003-07-22
To comment on disguising one's ability to channel a certain amount, RJ has said in an ?interview, book signing? that partial masking is possible. Someone like Mesaana could be walking around the Tower appearing to have an ability to channel as small as Morgase's, if she wanted.
rubbernilly: 2003-07-23
juitzhead-
you can't judge a man's strength in the Power just by being around him. Rand had to ASK Taim to hold as much as he could so that Rand could feel how strong he was.
So all that Osan'gar would have to do to hide his ability would be to channel just enough today to barely move a stone. Then tomorrow, he channels enough to move it a bit more... and a bit more the following day. Until he can lift the stone. Then he "gets stronger" and is able to lift two stones, etc.
It would be very easy for a AoL male channeler to go unnoticed if he wanted to. So there is no proof of partial masking in Dashiva's presence in the BT.
Dorindha: 2003-07-23
Dashiva didn't need to mask his power as it can't be felt unless it is held, and he didn't mask it anyway, as at one point in Cairhien Rand thinks how Dashiva is almost as strong as him.
Jiana: 2003-07-23
I don't think that Rand's comment on "Dashiva" being almost as strong as him proves anything as to whether or not Osan'gar was masking. The only other time we met him was in tEotW, and no one then knew how to gague strength in the Power for men... Also, none of the other AoLers have commented on Aginor's strength, that I recall. So he still could have been holding back.
rubbernilly: 2003-07-24
Jiana -
We don't know how strong Aginor was, but we know that Rand is the strongest. Let's say for the moment that partial masking is possible - something I do not think we have seen people able to do. That means that the less Aginor/Dashiva masked his strength, the more powerful he would appear, right? With Rand being the strongest channeler, that means he is an upper bound for how strong we would expect Aginor to be. So when he comments that Dashiva is almost as powerful as he himself is, logic says that this is because he is not masking. If he were masking, he would register as less powerful.
Therefore, we are only left with two options:
1) he was not masking at all, and therefore his situation does not lend its weight as evidence to the theory that such masking is possible
2) He was only barely, barely, barely masking his ability (having very little room between what he was demonstrating and the upper bound we established in Rand).
The only reason one could think that Aginor was only barely masking his ability is because that person was looking for support for the theory in the first place. I don't buy it. The theory isn't supported by Dashiva's situation. Instead, the theory says that if necessary, Dashiva's situation could be crammed under the umbrella of the theory. He *could be* masking his ability, albeit absolutely at a sliver thin level of obfuscation, for reasons that are beyond our comprehension.
Eh... no.
Dorindha: 2003-07-24
Rubbernilly is correct but I wanted to reiterate the point that men don't need to mask their power (if they can at all) because it can't be sensed unless it is being used/held. If a certain amount of power is being used/held, it's being used - it can't be disguised as a lesser amount.
To (attempt to) clarify that last bit, even if a woman is masking her ability, if she's using more power than it seems she has, that amount being used is still sensed, she wouldn't be able to mask that. It would seem weird to any AS etc watching, but that's the way I see it.
CJH68: 2003-08-26
We know that it is possible to partially shield someone - i.e. Lanfear was able to do this to Asmodean when Rand claimed him as his 'teacher' - therefore, logically, it is no great leap to be able to shield yourself in such a manner, thus effectively partially blocking the power.
heronblade: 2003-08-30
well she could use compulsion lightly to prevent recognision. to stop people inconviniently recognising her or remembering anything out of the ordinary and that kind of 'blanket' would stay when around SH
mako0424: 2003-12-24
I have thought long and hard on this matter and some facts seem readily apparent and obvious.
First of all, as to whether Mesaana is maybe a maid or cook, this is absolute crap. Mesaana placed herself in the tower so she could influence them and gain neccessary access to certain things such as ter'angreal and information, which we already know the other forsaken lookde to Mesaana about ter'angreal, no maid or servant would have this privelege, so therefore i am sure she would be an Aes' Sedai, and most likely a Sitter to to increase her influence. Danelle being an obvious choice for so many different reasons
1. Being Brown Ajah
2. Being a dreamy teacher of sorts
3. Both have blue eyes and Mask of Mirrors is as similar as possible to allow little debate.
4. Danelle was the sole cause of the mecenaries breaking into the Tower disguised as workers she was supposed to supervise.
5. Danelle is a Sitter of the Brown Ajah.
The mask of Mirrors isn't destroyed upon touch, only revealed as being untrue. Such as if Aes Sedai illusioned themselves to be giants, you coyuld pass your hand above their heads through the image. Not destroying it, but piercing the barrier allowing its falsehood revealed, the MoM only dropped when Shadra Haran cut her off.
And some other key points, masking one's ability in the power seems very easy and a definite option. If the Forsaken can make it seem they have no :P;ower at all, im sure some knowledge from the Age of Legends allows one to desguise their full potential, such as Asmodean only being allowed a certain amount of Power when teaching Rand.
And furthermore, this is why Aviarhin recognized both face and voice of Mesaana because they are Danelle's.
And i think Lanfear masked her ability in the power when posing as Else to allow herself use of the power, and freedom of movement though the Tower. Because we know Else did other things than just besides meeting Elayne, Egwene, and mat and them.
And as to Men's ability to judge strength with other men. Im sure they could probably judge potential easily, without holding all od saidin, i think Rand just asked Taim to embrace as much as possible to try and accurately gauge his strength and test his will as to whether he might strike out or what.
It seems obvious that maybe men haven't exactly learned all aspects of the one power yet, seeing as they are mainly trained as weapons.
But thats my two cents.
Aragorn: 2003-12-26
not only is her face tantilizing familiar but her voice is familiar. I don't think a maid's or cook's voice would be familiar. Even a secretary, unless it was Alvi's own secretary, would have a familiar voice to Alvi. Messana Has To be a Sister.
Aelfinn: 2003-12-26
Just a sidenote:
The "teacher" female Forsaken's name has three A's, one E, one M, one N.
It's MesAAna, not MesaNNa.
Mirtam Caulthon: 2003-12-28
Just to point this out. Aginor was the second most powerful male Forsaken right after Ishmael who was as strong as Rand. Moraine says so after Rand kills him in TEotW. It also says so in the Guide.
Mitch: 2004-10-03
I don't know whether this has been mentioned yet, perhaps in another theory about Mesaana, but I think that one significant point is that she has to be using Saidar so the Aes Sedai cannot sense her strength. As far as I am aware you cannot 'dampen' down your strength only stop someone sensing that you can channel.
So, if Mesanna is posing as a Sister then why don't they sense that she either cannot channel, or is way stronger than she should be?
The answer of course, is that she must be posing as someone who cannot channel.
If I am wrong about the weave to hide the ability to channel and it can be used to 'dampen' someones ability then I stand corrected, however I cannot ever remember this being mentioned as possible.
Callandor: 2004-10-05
**As far as I am aware you cannot 'dampen' down your strength only stop someone sensing that you can channel.**
You can. Lanfear mascaraded as Else Grinwell in the White Tower in TDR, as a novice, a power level she is in no way near.
Aiel Finn: 2004-11-16
I don't know if anyone has caught this yet, but right around Siuan being deposed, it says that Danelle is someone who has no friends and wasn't in the tower unitl recently. Perfect person for a forsaken to be.
alivia: 2005-02-25
Aiel Finn wrote **right around Siuan being deposed, it says that Danelle is someone who has no friends and wasn't in the tower unitl recently.**
Thank You!!! I was trying to remember what was most suspicious about Danelle!!
I believe that Mesaana being a scholar/teacher, holding the power of knowledge in high esteem, would insert herself right into the Brown Ajah, with libraries and studies within such easy reach, she would be that much more anonymous.
Also, Brown sisters are known as dreamy, reclusive, all-around strange-to-others, and this would provide a safe stereotype to hide within, especially when posing as someone known as a loner.
My vote is that Mesaana is a Brown, it just seems to click for me.
Danelle seems the wisest choice, as we have to take our clues where we can find them, often many books before they prove useful.
As for how the power disguises her so well, I leave that to more experienced theorists than I.
near3decades: 2005-10-17
Good post, Tigraine.
Personally, I think Mesaana is Tsutama (spelling?). It's just a feeling I have, and being the head of the Red Ajah is certainly a place of power and influence, without being the visible head...indeed, no one outside the Ajah knows the heads of any other. Also, I believe there was mention of her being in exile (retired), and coming back.
Finally...Mesaana is known to be working in collaboration with Demandred and Semirhage. Whether or not you believe Taimandred, it is pretty certain that Demandred is pulling the strings at the Black Tower. Tsutama sends a group of Aes Sedai to bond some Asha'man...a RED suggesting (almost to the point of ordering) Red sisters to bond men who can channel.
Seems to be different parts of the same plan, to me.
Ozymandias: 2005-10-17
wow... this one has been dead for a while. I'm pretty sure it's not Tsutsama. Masaana has been kicking around in the Tower for several thousand pages at this point, and Tsutsama has only recently returned. I would guess Mesaana is Taim before Tsutsama
Callandor: 2005-10-18
**Personally, I think Mesaana is Tsutama (spelling?). It's just a feeling I have, and being the head of the Red Ajah is certainly a place of power and influence, without being the visible head...indeed, no one outside the Ajah knows the heads of any other. Also, I believe there was mention of her being in exile (retired), and coming back.**
Yes, she was retired and came back, however:
1. Her colors do not match. Not the greatest thing, but it would be helpful if they did.
2. Mesaana has been in the Tower since Lord of Chaos, and more than likely since at least The Shadow Rising (almost assuredly behind somewhat of the Tower split). Tsutsama just returned to the Tower in Knife of Dreams.
**Whether or not you believe Taimandred, it is pretty certain that Demandred is pulling the strings at the Black Tower.**
Taimandred has been proven wrong for years. Give over.
But Demandred is a good suspect for influence in the Black Tower. An even better one, now at least, is Ishamael/Moridin though.
**Tsutama sends a group of Aes Sedai to bond some Asha'man...a RED suggesting (almost to the point of ordering) Red sisters to bond men who can channel.**
Yeah, for just the reasons she states. The Red has dealt with male channelers more than any other Ajah, and of course the Ajah Head is going to send her own Ajah to do this change. They're not thrilled about it -- they see it as necessary.
near3decades: 2005-10-18
Callandor:
*2. Mesaana has been in the Tower since Lord of Chaos, and more than likely since at least The Shadow Rising (almost assuredly behind somewhat of the Tower split). Tsutsama just returned to the Tower in Knife of Dreams.*
You are absolutely correct, but consider this - the Chosen are all arrogant to a fault, however none of them are stupid...quite the opposite, in fact. Mesaana has recently been unmasked in front of Alviarin. Do you honestly think she is so arrogant that she would maintain the same disguise? While it is true that Alviarin did not see her disguise before she saw her real appearance, do you think she would take the chance? I wouldn't...
Danelle was not mentioned in KoD - this in and of itself means nothing at all, but under the circumstances, maybe it does.
Danelle was part of Siuan's deposition - makes her a great candidate for Mesaana's disguise, and her part in the splitting of the Tower, but Elaida has made some changes, and the folks that aided her no longer seem to be holding the same status as they once did.
Mesaana is working in collaboration with Demandred and Semirhage - this is pretty much known, and a grand sweeping plan they seem to have (to me, at least).
Tsutama has just recently returned to the Tower, combined with no mention of Danelle - this in and of itself means nothing, but taken in consideration with Mesaana being unmasked, and with the sudden decision to bond Asha'man (which the Chosen know that men + women = much more effective), and it makes this proposition interesting.
If I remember correctly, Tsutama has blue eyes...as does Mesaana. Again, in and of itself, that means nothing.
I would agree with those who believe that Mesaana was Danelle, however, in light of *recent* events, I do not believe she is Danelle any longer. She would be stupid to maintain the same current age persona...just too big of a risk.
Each of my points, taken alone, mean nothing. Taken together, they could make a good case for Tsutama = Mesaana. Perhaps not.
As I said before, I don't really have anything concrete, it's just a feeling I have. All of the *evidence* I have presented here is circumstantial, and taken alone mean nothing.
We shall see
Callandor: 2005-10-19
**Do you honestly think she is so arrogant that she would maintain the same disguise?**
What else is she going to do? Suddenly appear as a new Aes Sedai, or yet another returned to the Tower, start all over again in her control of the Tower, and hope that people just forget that she was pretending to be someone else before?
**While it is true that Alviarin did not see her disguise before she saw her real appearance, do you think she would take the chance?**
She doesn't have much of a choice.
Besides, what's Alviarin going to do?
**Tsutama has just recently returned to the Tower, combined with no mention of Danelle - this in and of itself means nothing, but taken in consideration with Mesaana being unmasked, and with the sudden decision to bond Asha'man (which the Chosen know that men + women = much more effective), and it makes this proposition interesting.**
Danelle hasn't been mentioned since A Crown of Swords -- you're point?
**If I remember correctly, Tsutama has blue eyes...as does Mesaana. Again, in and of itself, that means nothing.**
You're going to have to quote that yourself.
rrwisner: 2006-04-02
Tsutama As Mesaana, just a comment Tsutama returned to the tower in tCoS not in knife of dreams. and mesaana whished above allto be a researcher but was denied, and only then became a teacher
mb: 2008-09-17
I think Mesaana would likely be someone in the Black Ajah for at least these reasons::
-How else could she control it after Alviarin leaves?
-Maybe a Black Ajah meeting was how she and Alviarin met.
As for her other Ajah, it would probably be Brown.
About men's ability to channel, there might be some reason for them to mask it. In The Great Hunt (chapter 31), Verin makes a comment about the strength of some (the whole paragraph)::
"What? Oh, there is no need for that, I think. The two must be used in unison to handle enough of the One Power to Break the World--that was the way in the Age of Legends; a man and a woman working together were always ten times as strong as they were apart--and what Aes Sedai today would aid a man in channeling? One by itself is powerful enough, but I can think of few women strong enough to survive the flow through the one on Tremalking. The Amyrlin, of course. Moiraine, and Elaida. Perhaps one or two others. And three still in training. As for Logain, it would have taken all his strength simply to keep from being burned to a cinder, with nothing left for doing anything. No, Ingtar, I don't think you need worry. At least, not until the real Dragon Reborn proclaims himself, and then we will all have enough to worry about as it is. Let us worry now about what we shall do when we are inside Barthanes's manor."
Vayez: 2008-10-13
I haven't studied this subject a lot, but just came across some coinciding facts that I thought were worth mentioning to others who spend more time on this subject. Just my thoughts..
Mesaana was turned down as a researcher in the AoL, and went on as a teacher, aspiring to be a top researcher once more. Nesune is also an amibitious researcher, and excellent teacher. She also mentions that the study she intends to make of the Dragon Reborn will be her biggest deed ever.
Nesune taps her lips thoughtfully as well as Mesaana
"Leaning back in that thronelike chair, Rand looked at the chests with a near smile. The Aes Sedai
studied him, faces masks of composure, yet Egwene thought she detected a hint of complacency in Coiren's
eyes, a faint increase of contempt on Galina's full lips. Nesune.... Nesune was the real danger."
# Mesaana and Semirhage do not attend the meeting of the Forsaken. (WH,Ch13)
# Mesaana is summoned to the battle at Shadar Logoth but does not come. (WH,Ch35, CoT,Ch21)
If I'm not mistaken, this happens during the time Nesune was captured by Rand and the Ashaman. She also visits Alviarin right before Nesune is captured. But I don't know exactly how long she was captured by the Ashaman afterwards, and if she had any means to be back in the tower before the next Mesaana appearance.
Nesune does appear on the good side, and even links up with other 'good guys' during the cleansing of Saidin. However, Elza is also posing to be on the good side (and even kills Dashiva).