laida's Fortelling not what she thinks at all
by The-True-Dragon: 2003-03-13 | 7 out of 10 (2 votes)
"Suddenly the Foretelling took hold of her, a certainty about things she could not see stronger than if they had been laid out before her. She would have been willing to step blindly over a cliff on that certainty. 'The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its ground. This I Foretell.'" - Elaida, aCoS prologue, p.18
So lets break down this fortelling and see exactly what it means from our pov.
1. "...The white Tower will be whole"
Obviously both sides want the tower to be whole so the inevitable conclusion is that it will in fact be made whole once again.
The "remnants cast out and scorned" could be possibly either the blue or red ajah (most likely red as the taint is gone and they are not needed)
2. "...Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger."
If either Egwene or Elaida "wins" this ordeal. Either one could be mad at rand. Elaida has the whole escaping and killing the sisters sent to catch Rand. And Egwene could get mad for some other reason (prehaps Gwayn meets Rand and is still convinced that Rand killed Morgase)Rand could feel the anger of either one equally.
3. "...The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire,"
HELLO!! a battle at the black tower hhhmmm... well lets see there is the mass amounts of theories to support a battle between Logain and Taim. I'd say that would cause a lot of blood and fire (especially with saidin)
Also i think that Logain will win but thats a theory for another time.
4. "...sisters will walk its ground."
I think that we can safely say that this has already happened as logain has 2 Aes sedai "warders" and they certaintlly walk the ground of the black tower.
Conclusion
Elaida is a fool. If she was able to become Amrylin (by whatever means) she should be smart enough not to take something like that as a sure victory. She should try and find out everything she can about the black tower (i bet Siuan would already have had eyes and ears in there) and about exactlly what the rebels are doing before she jumps to conclusion.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-03-13
I agree with your assessment, although Elaida being a fool is obvious ;). I think the most interesting part of the quote that I usually overlook concerns the remnant being cast out and scorned. That doesn't sound like something that Egwene would do, even to Elaida. Although, "stronger than ever" does suggest that it is Egwene's group in control including those from Ebou Dar. So as to the identity of the remnant we have a mystery. It could be the red ajah...but I find it far-fetched to believe that Egwene would kick out the red. Maybe this speaks of the remnants of the Black Ajah...any ideas?
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silverwolf: 2003-03-16
Maybe the remnant has something to do with Egwene's kidnappers. Any thoughts?
3
Weird Harold: 2003-03-16
The-True-Dragon:
"The "remnants cast out and scorned" could be possibly either the blue or red ajah (most likely red as the taint is gone and they are not needed)"
Tamyrlin:
I think the most interesting part of the quote that I usually overlook concerns the remnant being cast out and scorned. That doesn't sound like something that Egwene would do, even to Elaida. ... I find it far-fetched to believe that Egwene would kick out the red. Maybe this speaks of the remnants of the Black Ajah...any ideas?
Egwene has specifically identified two possibilities for the remnant cast out.
1: Elaida.
"Elaida must resign and go into exile. Anything else is negotiable" or words to that effect when she gives the OK to begin negotiations.
2: I believe it's later in that same scene when she says anyone who can't accept her as Amyrlin is free to follow Elaida into exile.
Egwene wants to restore the tower with as little bloodshed as possible and would prefer to exile hardcore dissidents than execute them.
Exiled AS might be another possible source for the new dreadlords, but that's another topic. :)
The-True-Dragon:
I think that we can safely say that this has already happened as logain has 2 Aes sedai "warders" and they certaintlly walk the ground of the black tower."
Actually, since Toviene and all fifty of her force were bonded by Logain's faction, there are currently 51 sisters walking the Black Tower Grounds.
(Ref: WH Prologue, "Snow")
Gabrelle to Toviene in Logain kitchen:
"The first question is, are we fifty-one sisters untied or do we rever to being browns and Reds, Yellows and Greens and Grays? And poor Ayako, who must be regretting that the whites insisted on having a sister included."
The-True-Dragon:
"Elaida is a fool."
This NOT the first time she has shown she doesn't understand her own Foretellings. She attached herself to Morgase and House Trakand, because she foresaw that the "Royal House of Andor" would be the key to the last battle -- of course, she foresaw that when Tigraine was Daughter-Heir to House Mordrellen.
Elaida has lived her whole life moving from one mistake to another about her foretellings.
4
Callandor: 2003-03-17
First off, I am whole heartedly behind Egwene going to be Amrylin. Elaida... kicked out, killed, stilled, bonded to an Asha man to be the butt of a hilarious irony joke, whatever happens shes gone.
Shes the biggest fool the wold has ever seen!
The Tower stronger then ever I think is Egwenes plan to have Aes Sedai swear the Oaths, then be unsworn once they reach near 300 years old, then get put in with the Kin for retirement.
Rand knowning her anger: HELLO! This has be screaming at me forever... The Aes Sedai sent as Wise Ones Apprentices! The degeneration of Aes Sedai respect is too great for it not to be changed back to the way it was before (plus the way the Aes Sedai are just rolling over this and accepting it is really starting to piss me off :-P).
ELAIDAS A FOOL! KILL HER!
5
Niall: 2003-03-21
Remnant cast out and scorned...the BA maybe. Makes sense to me. The BA is going to be found out, many will die when the other Aes Sedai kick 'em out, and nobody's going to be their friend. It fulfills all the requirements.
6
Anubis: 2003-04-12
i think that everywhere we are seeing a lessening of aes sedai respect. the aes sedai have done little to deserve any respect. they have isolated them selves from a large part of the world. in the aol werent they normal people with normal jobs, but they were respected because they could be called upon to help others with healing and building projects and that kinda stuff. i think that our aes sedai are moving more toward being a part of the world and less of a figure out of legends.
7
anderwarrick: 2003-06-06
thats a good point Anubis. probably if they moved around outside the tower more, they wouldn't be feared as much. Then, maybe the Whitecloacks might have gotten daring enough to kill them. Or maybe they could have convince everyone that they really swore the oaths and stuff. Since Aes Sedai are becoming a more common appearance that they aren't being as much of a mystery anymore. Then people will feel better about spending time near aes sedai, so they would feel comfortably with aes sedai helping their armies at the LB.
8
Murrin: 2003-10-28
The Amyrlin's anger was clearly pointed out in CoT. Since Egwene will be that Amyrlin (she Dreamed early on about the confrontation), then her anger will be about him Compelling sisters (he hasn't, but Egwene has totally convinced herself), and the Black Tower ("the biggest threat the world has faced"). And of course, Rand doesn't stand much chance of convincing her of the truth of how things stand - perhaps if Nyneave backs him up on the taint, and some of the others back him up on not using Compulsion, but I still don't think she'll be entirely convinced - for one thing, Siuan has Egwene certain that Cadsuane is Black Ajah, so her being Rand's advisor won't help.
9
brigitta: 2003-12-15
I like Anubis's reply too, but I think there will be a different kind of a solution- all Aes Sedai will be released from the Oaths for 2 reasons: 1) no Asha'aman will ever swear an Oath, even if Rand okayed it, which he will not do (my opinion only). thus there's no point for AS to swear never to hurt anybody if Asha'aman can do so any time they like. 2) the Oaths have ripped them off the world, they empasize their Oaths, while bending them as much as posssible. Now this cannot stay as it is, because everyone knows that even if an AS cannot lie, she most definately is not telling the truth that is needed. AS should be like everyone else, their words and actions should not be put before a judge every time. Besides, I think the age issue is of great importance...
10
Aelfinn: 2004-01-04
***First off, I am whole heartedly behind Egwene going to be Amrylin. Elaida... kicked out, killed, stilled, bonded to an Asha'man to be the butt of a hilarious irony joke, whatever happens she's gone.
She's the biggest fool the world has ever seen! ***
Callandor:
I think everyone here agrees with you wholeheartedly.
Somewhere I saw something that said since Elaida's foretelling doesn't rhyme it's not all real. I know I'll probably find that theory soon as I post this, but know anything about it?
11
Alanna Mosvani: 2004-01-04
I think the remnants-cast-out is the Black Ajah. In Egwene's ter'angreal test, there was a reference to the Black Ajah Purge, which may be similar to something that WILL happen in the future. Egwene is the only one of the two Amyrlins that knows about the Black Ajah (firsthand, no less). Remember that Elaida never asked Seaine to look for Black Ajah, just for "treason", she just wanted some dirt on Alviarin. Seaine interpreted these instructions to be about the Black Ajah, and went from there.
Picture this. After Egwene's (presumed) victory, Elaida is dumped, the remaining siters are a little more reasonable about reuinification. Egwene eventually runs into Seaine, Perava, etc. Maybe she is introduced to them by Tarna, who she retains as Keeper to foster harmony and because Sheriam can't handle the stress. Anyway, she hears about their activities with the Oath Rod and makes it an official purge instead of a secret thing in the basement.
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ranman38: 2004-01-05
I think the remnant is Elaida and others who wish to follow. How ironic that the the foreteller would foretell her own downfall! :)
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jaspinto: 2004-02-02
I think that the "remnants cast out and scorned" could be one of 2 things. Obviously, first, the BA. However, I don't see the AS being able to root out all of the BA. They may get a few here and there, but in my opinion, they are just too well organized into hearts to betray each other easily. The 2nd theory of mine is that it could be refering to is the AS who have sworn fealty to Rand. This is something unthinkable to AS and would be enough to make them eligible to be "cast out". I think the White Tower would not mind co-operating with Rand in some way, but the idea of swearing fealty would be too repulsive to them. Maybe, they should get caught up in one of his t'ravern swirls, huh?
14
WG: 2005-12-26
I think we have to look at two words: "the remnants cast out AND SCORNED". I think it refers to the Knitting Circle, who were stilled, sent away (cast out), and left to their own fates (scorned).
15
Callandor: 2005-12-30
**I think it refers to the Knitting Circle, who were stilled, sent away (cast out), and left to their own fates (scorned).**
The Knitting Circle is just the thirteen oldest Kin in Ebou Dar.... They haven't been stilled or cast out. Did you mean another group or that they will be stilled and cast out (of somewhere)?
16
JakOShadows: 2005-12-31
WG:
That's an interesting thought there. But that would imply that the knitting circles relationship to the WT would not be as complete as we think. Because it sounds like Egwene wants the KC to be a part of the tower, just ruled differently. Like a retirement type work for channelers, but still considered part of the WT. The way you interpret it is that it will be more like a confederation between to bodies. But it is certainly feasible.
