ore Evidence for Mat's loosing of an eye.
by Pips: 2003-04-15 | Not yet rated
First, I'll quote CoT:
p. 616, chapter: “A Cluster of Rosebuds”.
"Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky"
Noal recites this, saying it's from the Prophecies of the Dragon.
Mat thinks that the last thing he needs is someone connecting him to that, just to clarify that it IS about him.
Now, the first and second lines are obvious, the first just proves that his luck is a tangible thing, the second that he's a force to be reckoned with for darkfriends, and the third line I assume is referring to Tuon's kidnapping, or possible future Seanchan/Mat stuff.
I'm focusing on the third line. Now, you're all probably familiar with the 'loose half the light of the world to save the world', the 'eye on a balance', and the 'blood streaming down his face, hat pulled low' foretelling. Just in case any of you doubted, I wanted to add this has possible evidence that Mat will loose an eye.
"Luck his soul, the lightning his eye"
It is well known that some of the smallest details in RJ's work are the most important. Note the use of 'eye' instead of 'eyes'. While this may refer to his one-eyed fox head medallion, I doubt it, seeing that it's about Mat, and not his possessions. And even if it does, my guess is that that medallion represents Mat in some odd form. Also, maybe the medallion isn't a profile after all, but is a literally silver fox head with only one eye. But those are just guesses.
I just thought I'd offer up more evidence.
P.S Nice to meet you all :)
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-21
Okay, this is speaking about Mat, describing his luck/fortune, but the snatching the moons out of the sky seems to speak of the impending guns/bombs/whatever he is going to make. The lightning is his eye seems to make a connection between the power that will come from his invention and, I guess, the potential loss of his eye, but I think that this connects the Seanchan, Mat, Luck, Loss of Eye, and his invention. I hope this is handled in the next book.
2
Dorindha: 2003-04-21
I've always resisted the idea of Mat losing an eye, despite the evidence - young good-looking hero types in books are just not meant to get damaged like that. However, the evidence seems to be pointing more and more towards it, and I can't really work out what it might symbolise if it was a symbolic rather than literal interpretation.
I think that the ravens in the second line could refer to the Seanchan blood - he's going to mix them up a bit soon.
3
Anubis: 2003-04-21
naah, eyepatch and a hat and that spear... how cool would that be. i for one fully hope that when mat does lose his eye, he gets somthing good out of it.. maybe eye for moirine? its a possibility.. but what is the other half of the light?
4
cow defender: 2003-04-21
yeah well obviously this is about Mat with fortune on high and the whole fox stuff. I always assumed that the "he snatches the moons from out of the sky" part to refer to him kidnapping the daughter of the nine moons. Also, the "fox that makes the ravens fly" COULD refer to him kickin either seanchan or dark one minion's a**.
and all in the defense of cows.
5
Callandor: 2003-04-21
Ive always believed that Mat would lose an eye ever since Egwenes dream and then even more when he got the medallion, I cant explain it it just did that to me, but ever since COT and the theories of Mat losing his eye to save Moiraine I havent been to one sided on it but I prefer to go the old fashion he loses it to learn how to make explosives/cannons/bombs.
P.S. I SOOOO want this wrapped up in the next book.
6
Hydraan Sedai: 2003-04-23
"Fortune rides like the sun on high...."
I'm guessing this means that when Matrim's Luck is good, it's great. But the sun goes down as well; When it's bad, it's really bad.
"...With the fox that makes the ravens fly...."
Remember when Matrim got a ring? He was following somebody ((Sorry; I haven't read the books in a while =P)). He got a ring, and on the ring, was a Fox, and two Ravens. Matrim thought something like "That's just like me with Nynaeve and Elayne". Well, two Ravens on his Ring, on his Ashanderei, the Seekers have Raven tattoos. The Seekers search for the Blood. Tuon and Egeanin are with Mat. One Seeker for each of the Blood in Matrim's "possession".
I don't know what I am saying anymore =P. I *think* that I am saying that Matrim and Seanchan/Seekers/Ravens don't mix, since Matrim (The Fox) chases them away.
"....Luck his soul, the lightning his eye...."
I haven't got much to say here; Matrim *is* Luck. "Lightning his eye". Perhaps whereever he looks is not a great place to be. He is a great general of armies, and with Fireflowers pointed at enemies, well, he looks and where he looks will be death. Or maybe damane lightning. He looks, he points, and lightning comes....
"....He snatches the moons from out of the sky"
Snatching the moon out of the sky suggests taking the *only* light remaining in the dark. Or the Seancham; He can take them whenever he wants, however he wants, etc. But if he has to give up half the Light to save the ((Is it save the world?)), and he snatches the moon from the sky, then he is taking the light away from the dark. Perhaps he can then use the "moon" when it becomes day again; You will have normal light plus the light that keeps away the darkness. Together, the two lights will be more effective.... Or maybe he sticks the moon in his eye socket =P
Also, I think I remember someone saying ((From the Two Rivers)), something about cutting fireworks. "You'll lose an eye". He also cut it when Thom was around as well, and Thom wasn't happy either. Perhaps Matrim cannot figure out the Riddle, so he just tries to steal some of Aludra's fireworks and make his own ((Which results in disaster, as he does it incorrectly. And he loses an eye!))
Perhaps I should just go and sit in the corner for a while; You lot can tell me what I am saying ;-)
7
cow defender: 2003-04-23
okay i'm pretty convinced now that he will lose his eye with something to do with the canons and fireworks and/or whatever he's gonna make what with all the foreshadowing "youre gonna lose your eye" crap. And then the lightning his eye line from the Prophesies of the Dragon, what else could it mean? He really isn't mixed up with damane so it can't mean that. It has to be some sort of weapon of war.
and all in the defense of cows
8
Anubis: 2003-04-24
i dont know. i get the impression that mats gonna sacrafice his eye in some way, not lose it in an accident. he places it one a balance scale, and he gives up half the light to save the other half. these actions sound deliberate to me, not like some fireworks accident
9
Rhodric: 2003-06-19
I think this whole passage refers to the kidnapping of Tuon by Mat.
"Fortune rides like the sun on high "
Hydraan Sedai's interpretation of this line was best. I think mat's fortune rode high when he managed to escape, but it's going down (kinda) with his efforts to court Tuon.
"with the fox that makes the ravens fly."
Mat is the fox, the ravens flying are the Seekers/Deathwatch Guards fanning out across Altara etc. to find Tuon. he made 'em fly by kidnapping her.
"Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,"
Yeah the lightning probably refers to the eye, and the first bits just that whole luck thing (somebody said this line in detail.)
"He snatches the moons from out of the sky"
Stealing Tuon away, obviously. perhaps 'out of the sky' is significant, but think its just there to keep the moon metaphor going.
i dont think anyone has said that thing about deathwatch guards yet, thought i'd offer it up.
10
Rand-althor: 2003-06-19
I, like Tamyrlin, prefer to believe that Mat does not lose his eye literally. IF he does, I nelieve it will be in some sort of bargain, hence the balancing it on a scale. If he is balancing it, it means he is making a decision KNOWING that it will, or may, cost him an eye. I prefer to believe that they mean he gets into a situation where he MIGHT lose his eye depending on what he does.
11
oosquai: 2003-06-19
"He snatches the moons from out of the sky"
Stealing Tuon away, obviously. perhaps 'out of the sky' is significant, but think its just there to keep the moon metaphor going.
Not to mention the rhyme.
And Mat is going to be makeing canons. This is certain because the word "canon" comes from a part of the bell-making prosess.
I also agree that Mat will sacrifice his eye rather than lose it in some accident. Unless of course Mat is the original example for 'You'll shoot your eye out' for the next age.
12
Rhodric: 2003-06-30
why is it assumed that giving up half the light of the world is related to mat losing an eye? (assuming mat loses it literally).
i just got caught up in the whole kafuffle that i didn't stop to think of this.
perhaps he looses his eye one one big decision (the balance scales) and giving up half the light is completely different.
tell me off please :p
13
ranman38: 2003-07-23
umm, what is half the light of the world??? The sun or the moon is half the light of the world. Oh, and the moon is the empress/tuon. He is going to lose Tuon! :)
14
rubbernilly: 2003-07-24
Ranman - No.
Callandor - Mat losing an eye seems to be a choice he makes, not an accident. The scales are a standard metaphor for a decision the character faces, and in the vision, it is Mat placing his own eye on them.
15
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-24
Ok im so sick of this 'mat will lose an eye thing'
Mat was looking towards the future. He had to amke a crucial decision that would alter his fate. The scale represents the decision, the eye mats future. Mat kidnapped Tuon his fate is set
16
Mizguidded Khild: 2003-07-24
Didn't Min say that when she saw Moiraine and Nynavene together their lights toward fighting the DO shown just as brightly as the rest of the group combined? Not exactly in those words but close to it. So what if Moiraine is half the light of the world's salvation? Mat goes to save her with Thom...and gives up his eye for her to the finns.
17
Ashaman Ragsdale: 2003-07-24
Mizguidded Khild I like where you are going with this theory. I would love to explore it more!
18
Priest: 2003-07-24
Mizguidded Khild: I believe you are referring to the passage in tEotW where Nyn first finds the group in Barleon. Min remarks to Rand: "The Sparks Rand. She (Nyn) met Mistress Alys (Moraine) coming in, and there were sparks, with just the two of them. Yesterday I couldn't see sparks without at least three or four of you together, but today it's all sharper, and more furious" "It's a wonder the inn doesn't catch fire, you are all in more danger today than yesterday. Since she came."
If that is not what you are referring to please disregard. =)
19
Callandor: 2003-07-25
The lights are refering to the need for Moiraine and Nynaeve in the LB. This is confirmed by the lights around Rand, and Perrin and most likely Mat but I don't recall him being seen with them yet by Min.
Yes, Moiraine will be needed but she really isn't half the light. So far she's 1/5th!
20
Mizguidded Khild: 2003-07-25
Thank you Priest, that was the passage. No she is not the 1/5, Min says that she sees the sparks with just Nyn and Moiraine...previously she had to have 3 or 4 people to get sparks...I have a question who says that to save half the light of the world, it had to be Mat's world?...what if it is half the light of Thom's world Mat is to save...which I am sure most of us would agree to be Moiraine...besides, Moiraine was half the orginial team to show Mat the world (Moiraine and Lan) thus opening his eyes to the world, or shedding light on the world to Mat...
21
Rhodric: 2003-07-27
**Ok im so sick of this 'mat will lose an eye thing'
Mat was looking towards the future. He had to amke a crucial decision that would alter his fate. The scale represents the decision, the eye mats future. Mat kidnapped Tuon his fate is set**
10 points for shadow bane for the most simple theory, and therefore most likely to be correct.
i thought that the two ravens settling in to his skin like tattoos vision was more along this vein (the vision refers to mat's eventual resignation to his fate) but the eye on the scale certainly fits also - not a real eye at all - though i still think that it refers to something which has not yet happened.
22
Allchaos: 2007-04-27
We all know Mat's based on Odin...at least, I think he is, cause that's what Wikipedia says. Odin was one-eyed, hung himself for knowledge (of death, in Odin's case), wore a broad-brimmed hat, and carried a spear. I know RJ messes with the myths, so this isn't fully concrete evidence.
However, I believe Min's and Egwene's visions/dreams clinches it. The "eye on a balance scale" and "blood streaming down his face" both, I believe, lead to the loss of his eye. And what better to lose half the light of the world than to lose sight of half the world...
All I'm unsure of is the way he loses it. Will it be to save Moiraine, which will probably be the coolest if he makes a baragin with the Snakes'n'Foxes.
He better lose in a cool way and not by giving it to Rand so he can see. That's similar to Perrin giving up his hand for Rand; Perrin's cutting off the Shaido's hand might be foreshadowing something to do with that. But I'm really hoping that's not what happens...
23
Marie Curie 7: 2007-05-02
Allchaos:
"We all know Mat's based on Odin...at least, I think he is, cause that's what Wikipedia says. Odin was one-eyed, hung himself for knowledge (of death, in Odin's case), wore a broad-brimmed hat, and carried a spear. I know RJ messes with the myths, so this isn't fully concrete evidence."
RJ has said that Odin is one of the characters that influenced Mat, but not the only one. From Thus Spake the Creator:
-------
Q: Mr. Jordan. I love your series, it is intricate and interesting. My favorite character (other than Rand) is Matt. People have speculated that Odin was the outline for this character. I see Chukullen (misspelled). Could you eleborate?
A: There are a number of characters reflected, mythological characters, reflected in each of the books because of the basic theme, if you will, of the books, that information becomes distorted over distance or time... you cannot know the truth of an event the further you get from it. These people are supposed to be the source of a great many of our legends or myths, but what they actually did bears little resemblance to the myth. that is the conceit, that time has shifted these actions to other people, perhaps compressing two people into one or dividing one into three as far as their actions go so Rand has bits of Arthur and bits of Thor and bits of other characters and so does Mat and so does Nynaeve, and so do others. And yes Mat does have some bits of Odin, but not exclusively. He has bits of Loki and bits of Coyote and of the Monkey King.
"However, I believe Min's and Egwene's visions/dreams clinches it. The "eye on a balance scale" and "blood streaming down his face" both, I believe, lead to the loss of his eye. And what better to lose half the light of the world than to lose sight of half the world...
All I'm unsure of is the way he loses it. Will it be to save Moiraine, which will probably be the coolest if he makes a baragin with the Snakes'n'Foxes."
FYI, Egwene's dream of Mat with blood running down his face seems to be linked with her dream of Thom Merrilin pulling Moiraine's blue stone out of a fire:
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TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 15 - What Can Be Learned in Dreams
Another dream. Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.
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And we know from Knife of Dreams that Mat is aware that the Eelfinn can "see" out of his eyes:
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TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 8 - Dragons' Eggs
Light. I hate to remember dying, he thought, and the thought turned to a coal burning in his brain. A coal that burned hotter and hotter. He remembered those men's deaths, not just one but dozens of them. He-remembered-dying.
"Toy, are you ill?" Tuon brought the mare close and peered up into his face. Concern filled her big eyes. "You've gone pale as the moon."
"I'm right as spring water," he muttered. She was close enough for him to kiss if he bent his head, but he did not move. He could not. He was thinking so furiously he had nothing left for motion. Somehow only the Light knew, the Eelfinn had gathered the memories they had planted in his head, but how could they harvest memory from a corpse? A corpse in the world of men, at that. He was certain they never came to this side of that twisted doorframe ter'angreal for longer than minutes at a time. A way occurred to him, one he did not like, not a scrap. Maybe they created some sort of link to any human who visited them, a link that allowed them to copy all of a man's memories after that right up to the moment he died. In some of those memories from other men he was white-haired, in some only a few years older than he really was, and everything in between, but there were none of childhood or growing up. What were the odds of that, if they had just stuffed him with random bits and pieces, likely things they considered rubbish or had done with? What did they do with memories, anyway? They had to have some reason for gathering them beyond giving them away again. No, he was just trying to avoid where this led. Burn him, the bloody foxes were inside his head right then! They had to be. It was the only explanation that made sense.
"Well, you look as if you're about to vomit," Tuon said, backing the razor away with a grimace. "Who in the show would have herbs? I have some knowledge there."
"I'm all right, I tell you." In truth, he did want to sick up. Having those foxes in his head was a thousand times worse than the dice however hard the dice rattled. Could the Eelfinn see through his eyes? Light, what was he going to do? He doubted any Aes Sedai could Heal him of this, not that he would trust them to, not when it meant leaving off the foxhead. There was nothing to be done. He would just have to live with it. He groaned at the thought.
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