1
Tamyrlin: 2004-01-24
I think you suggest what is wrong with your own theory, these twins will not be born before the last battle occurs. As the books have progressed, smaller amounts of time have passed. At the most, I would guess 4-8 months before the final battle, and I can't imagine the twins will have anything to do with it. Plus, we have no reason to believe that the laugh and cry teaching has anything to do with the success of Rand's final battle. It may, but Cadsuane is supposed to teach this to all Asha'man, some of whom are already fathers and some are not. I don't see the connection.
2
Callandor: 2004-01-24
Again, you yourself said that the kids would be too young to be of any help.
Now compare the other two canidates.
Elayne Trakand: right now she is almost Queen of Andor, and about a month pregnant (if that). If Tam's assesment is correct (and it is pretty much what I thought it would be) she will be giving birth at about the time of the Last Battle. Big help there.
Rand al'Thor: Is the Dragon Reborn. Enough said.
3
Alanna Mosvani: 2004-01-25
just wondering. Rand doesn't seem to be too worried about becoming a father. Does he know? Did Min forget to tell him?
4
kikyo: 2004-01-26
Or perhaps the foretelling refers to BOTH of them (Rand and Elayne) ... Rand is obviously going to be key in the Last battle. That's a no brainer. But Elayne will probably be key also. Unless she is indeed going into labor. It just seems kind of dumb to me to have this major character suddenly have to miss the big event and have some babies.
it's also possible that she will use the female side of the Choedan Kal along with Rand or one of the Asha'man (Logain, maybe?) to do something major during the Last Battle. Or it is quite possible that she will have some other major role. I find it hard to believe she would miss it, even if the battle took place in the 9th month of her pregnancy. She would still want to do something to help.
5
molec: 2004-01-26
Rand's mother was from the royal line of Andor. The fortelling might even be referring to her, and by extension, to Rand himself. Jordan might have misdirected us again! Maybe he will even kill Elayne in the next books...yeah right.
6
Davian93: 2004-01-26
I've always thought that Elaida's interpretation of her foretelling was RJ's way of showing us how stupid Elaida can be. Rand, a scion of the old royal family, obviously fulfills the prophecy. I thought it funny that Elaida pretty much wasted 20 years of her life attaching herself to Morgase and following Gawyn and Elayne around. Although the new perspective of Elaida in New Spring shows her to be a result of her overwhelming pride, not an inherently evil person. She just lacks people skills.
7
Frenzy: 2004-01-26
Any parent can tell you that the child (or children, in this case) don't have to be born yet to have a major impact on a person's life or world view. And considering how Rand reacts around women who fight and die for him, you can just imagine how bad he'll be if one of those women is with child...especially his child. (or with child because of his weakness, blah blah blah.)
Then again, i think this Foretelling of Elaida's has played out. We know that Rand is key to winning the Last Battle. Elayne may be part of it, just like Mat and Perrin and Egwene and a whole mess of other people, but Rand is the key. Elaida's Red Ajah mindset, and not acting on her Foretelling until it was too late, preclude her from realizing the truth behind the Foretelling. (Timing has little to do with it, though, since some Foretellings have taken over 3000 years to be fulfilled.)
This particular Foretelling of Elaida's has been played out. Pure and simple.
8
Rhuark: 2004-01-26
If Elaida was so sure that Elayne and Gawyn were the key for winning the Last Battle why is she so keen for Gawyn and his Younglings to get wiped out??.. Just a thought..
9
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-27
I think the reason Elaida is so keen to get rid of Gawyn is because he is a man. Elaida is an AS, (ie an arrogant woman who believes nothing important in the world would happen because of a Man without an AS controlling it) and a Red (who mostly despise men). In her mind it would be obvious the foretelling would have to be about Elayne. She wants to get rid of Gawyn because she believes he is not person the prophecy is about and he is a loose cannon in her domain. She can't stand anyone else having a measure of her power. I can't wait until she gets what is coming to her.
10
millesimal: 2004-01-27
first post, so hello all :)...
Firstly, I agree that the foretelling Elaida had was about Rand and his mother, part of the royal house at the time, and not about Morgase and her line, it just makes sense to me, in terms of the timing.
From the passage from Crown of Swords, it seems clear that Elaida has interpreted her foretelling to mean that Elayne is important in the LB, and it shouldn't be a surprise that she has pushed Gawyn to the side, and thinks he is expendable: she's red ajah and he's a man, also he won't sit on any throne (that i'm aware, anyway) and Elayne will. I guess Gawyn just isn't royal enough for her.
That's what i think, anyway...
11
Davian93: 2004-01-27
I think Elaida only believes that Elayne or Morgase is the key to victory in the Last Battle. This goes into her thinking/Red Ajah Ideology of men being evil/worthless. She probably also leans to Elayne because of her ability to channel. She wants Gawyn killed because she sees him as a liability and possibly knowing that Elayne follows the Rebel Aes Sedai, she might question his loyalty. She knows Gawyn oath to defend Elayne is far stronger than his loyalty to the Tower.
12
Korell: 2004-01-27
You make a good point are we really so sure that Elaida is still on the side of good early on in her points of view we get that her intentions are good but her execution is bad but now when you get a little of her point of view its not quite the same. Some might say why set hounds on teh BA. Well is anyone gonna suspect her if she got the hounds after the BA in the first place? not likly perhaps she was turned at some point what little viewpoint of hers we get it is hard to tell but then she also may just be more concerned that Elayne needs to survive and not Gawyn i think it would be fitting if she was turned though and set the hounds on the BA she is very manipulative and it would be a good reason for her not to care a thing about Andor anymore just a thought though
13
a dragonburned fool: 2004-01-27
"The Royal House of Andor" is to be the key. Of course it can mean, that some person belonging to that family is the "key". But it could also mean, that some connection between the members of this House is needed. Rand is no doubt both one of the House and THE KEY for the Last Battle. But in Elayne's Andor now there are too much important events in process and it must be important in the last book, if it's really only after 2 books :) . The House Damodred as the closest related to the Andoran Royal House, is also so closely involved in the most important storyline, that it could be interpreted as the part of the "key". So couldn't the "key" from Elaida's prophecy be the whole Tracand + Damodred connection with all the complications between it's lines?
14
gwprod: 2004-01-28
I know everyone hates my theories... but as Tamyrlin said, the twins should be born around the time of the last battle... maybe the prophecy of "His Blood on the rocks of shayol ghul" means that Elayne will somehow be there and pop them out, them being Rand's Blood as in kin, not blood as in vital fluids (up till this point, I thought Blood meant the Aiel would be there)
PS. everyone believes that Rand will die in the last battle because of that reference in the prophecies (I think) if there is any other reference that says he will die, please post it
15
Jiana: 2004-01-30
I agree with Davian, that Elaida's interpretation was RJ's example of how pigheaded Elaida is. When she thinks she's in the right you can't tell her that up is up without an argument. I still hold that Elayne will place herself near to the action at TG... she's so stubborn no one could convince her to do otherwise. I think her twins will be born then, and that will be Rand's "blood on the rocks"
16
Unicorn: 2004-01-30
I am re-reading at this time, on my way home from work I got to the first mention of Elaida's foretelling, and noticed that the wording was not the "royal house of Andor" but the "royal line of Andor", and as it has been said Rand os of the royal line if not the house(ofcourse so is all nobles of Andor). I agree with Jiana and Davian that Elaida's interpretation is a sign as to how narrow her mind works. Look at her foretelling of the Tower united, the foretelling said absolutely nothing about who would win, but to our girl it was cast in gold and laid in the floor of the Amyrlins study that it meant she would win. She sees what she wants to see. She is not BA, in TDR she is clealy shaken that there is a BA, but she is greedy, ambitious and all those other things I normally associate with those who turn to the shadow, I don't think she has though. I crazy thought just struck me. Many people have speculated if Taim was "the Demandred of the third age" not THE Demandred but the one who turns for envy, not likeing be second etc. Wouldn't it be Jordan'esque to turn it around in this age and let a woman be the one. When Egwene "wins", she seems to want to heal instead of punish, Elaida will hate her not only for winning but for being popular, and in general just be sulky and badabing Moridn is in her dreams promising glory and restoration to her proper place, just sign here. Don't know just a thought
17
Davian93: 2004-01-30
Response to Unicorn:
It would be interesting to see Elaida turn against the light because of her pride. It might turn out that the Hall finds out by her follies first with trying to capture Rand and then her idiotic plan to attack the BT. Either one of those let alone both would easily be enough to depose her. If they threatened to depose her in favor of Egwene (or even worse in Elaida's mind) or Alviarin that just might be enough to get her to turn to the shadow.
"Pride cometh before the fall."
Good parallel with Demandred:)
18
Anubis: 2004-01-30
<---- one who speculated that taim was the demandred of this age
and i could see that happening. elidia might come to hate the "fools" who cast her out and could not see that her way was best. i could deffinatly see her eventually turning to the shadow if it was done proplerly.
19
dragonsceptor: 2004-01-31
I don't think Elaida is BA. There is a simple proof for this. Alvairin (sorry about the spelling) is the head of the BA and we see from her perspective that Elaida is not BA. That doesn't mean she won't be turned.
20
phenila: 2004-02-01
Elaida, in her pride, cannot see any other POV but her own. This is demonstrated time and again in th way she handles the white tower as amyrlin. And if she was BA, alviarin would control her through the BA. Then Alviarin wouldn't need to manipulate Elaida through threats, etc
21
Callandor: 2004-02-02
Elaida is not BA for two main reasons:
1. Elaida thinks that she must stop Rand from harming Andor in order to make sure that the "key" to the defeat of the DO is at hand (in TSR). She clearly wants to defeat the DO then.
2. Alviarin is the HEAD of the Black Ajah. If Elaida was apart of the Black, Alviarin would have no need to force Elaida to do anything; she would just order her.
22
Dragonsworn: 2004-02-02
Does Elaida really have fortellings. B/C in the later books every fortelling she has are wrong. for ex she states that the ashamen will fall and the Dragon Reborn will bend knee to her. I know this doesnt really go along with the discusion about her fortelling about caemlyn, but what if she was wrong. I know that Elayne and Rand are some kinda key to Tarmon Gaidon, but Elaida attached herslef to Morgase and actually ended up making elayne help her, I mean if she had the fortelling and it was correct wouldnt she attach her self to Elayne
23
Callandor: 2004-02-03
What Foretelling are you talking about?
**TITLE: A Crown of Swords, CHAPTER Prologue: Lightnings
"The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell."**
This is as close as I can come to any Foretelling that you are implying, and it is totally differnt. Elaida's opinion of the Foretlling is practically spot on however; but that doesn't make it true.
24
Davian93: 2004-02-03
****I don't think Elaida is BA. There is a simple proof for this. Alvairin (sorry about the spelling) is the head of the BA and we see from her perspective that Elaida is not BA. That doesn't mean she won't be turned.****
I dont think anyone is saying that Elaida is Black Ajah at this time. My theory is she could turn to the Shadow if she is threatened with removal and stilling. Her overwhelming pride could twist her to a choice she never considered in the past. Is this likely, no not really because Elaida deep down is doing what she thinks is right for the White Tower. She, from her POV's, is committed to the Light and reuniting the Tower so it is ready for the Last Battle.
Then again, stranger things have happened. Pride and arrogance are what pushed Sammael and Demandred to the Shadow, so it could happen to Elaida.
25
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-03
Her foretellings are real. It's not that they have not come true, it's that they have not come true in the way that she expects. The reason it appears her foretellings are wrong is because she so grossly misinterprets them. This is mostly due to her pride.
26
a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-04
The main purpose of prophecies is not to tell what exactly will happen, but to recognize the significance of an event WHEN it happens. Most attempts to use prophecies before the prophecied events occur, are substantially prone to fail (for example so many fake dragons...).
27
minalth: 2004-02-18
Gwprod
you say if anyone else knows why rand should die, there is something to do with that ex-damane who is stronger in the power than nynaeve... 5/6 letter name begining with A i think but i have a mental block and no books withme at the mo... anyway, that ex damane is supposed to help rand die, and that is why he/one of egwane/elayne/nynaeve trusts her, because they know he has to die anyway...
sorry that was a mess
28
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-18
Her name is Alivia.
