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olfbrothers are the symptom, not the cause
by Philosopher: 2004-01-20 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Prophecies, Foretellings, and Talents
Note that every ability in WoT is balanced - except for Min's ability, both men and women can do much the same things. The ability to channel, talents, etc. Dreamwalking isn't connected to channeling as Bair proves, but it would be unlike RJ to make it so one sided. So why wouldn't there be men who can dreamwalk?
Further, often talents have different manifestations based on gender. Men channeling is comparable to women channeling, but they do it differently. Even the way they form weaves - men bore a hole, women create a similarity, to Travel, for example. Why not dreamwalking? Something in the nature of the man makes his dreamwalking skills also interact with wolves, while it might do something different in women, like the ability to reach the halfway point where all the dreams are.
Just seems to be a big coincidence that there is a gender imbalance on both of these skills, and reversed (ie, only men in one and women in other).
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-02-10
These would be good questions for RJ. I doubt there has never been a female wolfsister, or a male dreamwalker. And I would guess there are men who are born with Min's talent. Part of the discrepancy I believe has to do with the system of cultural education. The Wise Ones seek out and train young women who can dreamwalk. If a dreamwalker is not found, will he/she really ever do much more than have vivid dreams and touch T'A'R proper? Without help, Egwene would have gotten herself killed. And, from what we know of wolfbrothers, it would appear that Perrin and Elyas, and the control they have, is rare. So, my assumption, concerning those talents, is the talents are ones Jordan has used in this Age, but in other Ages or settings they would probably be found in both sexes.
a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-10
Reading Your theory I'm wondering at two things:
1. We haven't information enough about how the dreamwalking talent was originally discovered by Aiels, (IIRC, it existed already when the da'shain Aiel traveled, before they came to the Waste), but we have no information about any single dreamwalker naturally obtaining that talent, and we don't know also how the Wise Ones find Aiel girls with the talent. My impression is, that noone learned dreamwalking naturally, genuine, everybody was teached. Channelers obtain information about T'A'R vie channeling, Aiels via Wise One training, wolfbrothers due to wolves. Could Perrin reach T'A'R if he wasn't changed by wolves? I'd rather answer "No".
2. Has the lack of female wolfbrothers something to do with that connection of the male channelers to dogs (Canis lupus like wolves) and female channelers to cats? Is this dog/cat differance also about non-channeling talents? So wildcatsisters to be expected maybe, or Melaine realizing she can speak with lions? :P
Unicorn: 2004-02-10
I agree that, Perrin at least, is a dreamwalker. Early on he is shown things by hopper but he also sees things in the "wolfdream" for himself. I have no doubt that he is a dreamwalker. If it is connected to the wolves I don't know. Just after Perrin is united with the others again in EotW Morraine given what little input she can. She tells him that wolves are often mentioned as guides to dreamers. I would think that her information is mainly if not wholly based on female sources.
Callandor: 2004-02-10
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes
"We have glimpsed those who must be dreamwalkers, including men." Bair shook her head incredulously; no matter what she knew about the Forsaken, she considered male dreamwalkers about as common as legs on snakes. "They avoid us. All of them."**
Aelfinn: 2004-02-11
***Has the lack of female wolfbrothers something to do with that connection of the male channelers to dogs (Canis lupus like wolves) and female channelers to cats? Is this dog/cat differance also about non-channeling talents? So wild catsisters to be expected maybe, or Melaine realizing she can speak with lions? :P ***
I think that all wolfbrothers have never been channellers or dreamwalkers (originally). Wolfbrothers are quite [extremely] rare, so if there are normally more male "wolfsiblings", as in 95 out of 100, and we've only seen 3, then it would seem that only men can do that.
And as for "catsisters": that would be a great idea. But Perrin can only speak with wolves, not dogs, and he never felt that until he was actually AROUND wolves for a long period of time, close contact. Not many people are around wild cats close contact for a while.
But maybe instead of LIONsisters (or other wild felines), there are [domesticated] catsisters. It isn't known that much because, think about it. Travelling about with a bunch of wolves is odd, crazy, stupid, and more things. Travelling about with 20+ cats is just wierd.
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes
"We have glimpsed those who must be dreamwalkers, including men." Bair shook her head incredulously; no matter what she knew about the Forsaken, she considered male dreamwalkers about as common as legs on snakes. "They avoid us. All of them."**
I think that's those who Gated into TAR, or who came across a ter'angreal.
HawkeWolfe: 2004-02-11
Let us remember that Black Ajah sister, Marillin Gemalphin, who is extremely fond of cats. Wouldn't that be an excellent way to spy on anybody she wanted to, if she could talk to cats?? Especially in the White Tower! Which Aes Sedai would suspect a cat? Also even if there was a ward against eavesdropping, if the cat was in the room, it would not matter. Since Perrin does not use the One Power to talk to wolves, would a ward stop Marillin from "tuning" in to whatever cat happen to be in the room?
Of course, Marillin is no longer in the WT, but she is in Camelyn...
Pure speculation, but I like it!
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-11
From the comments made to Egwene about dreamwalkers by the AS, they do not appear to be very common. This is again most likely due to the AS attitudes. However, even amount the Aiel it does not appear to be a common talent. It seems obvious that dreamwalkers need instruction to become proficient. Where would a man in Randland get this instruction? The wise ones only seek out and train girls. The AS view it as linked to channeling and would not train a man, not like they knew much anyway. I don't think you can dismiss the comment by Bair as referring only to those there in the Flesh. Who do we know that is able to be there in the Flesh, Rand, Slayer, and the remaining male forsaken. It seems like this is too few to illicit the comment from Bair, especially as Rand, Slayer, and the forsaken are usually there spying and take precautions not to be seen by anyone. I think there are other dreamers out that there, both male and female, that don't know who they are. I would imagine there are dreamers as part of all populations, including the seanchen and seafolk.
As far as female wolf brothers, I don't think we have ever seen anything that indicates there can't be female wolf brothers. It is not a common talent and as has been mentioned, will only be brought out by close proximity to wolves. Additionally, the names given to the humans are not necessarily gender specific, ie shadowkiller. Women in general in Randland Society don't seem to spend much time adventuring, AS aside. If women aren't out adventuring, there isn't much opportunity for them to be exposed to wolves and cultivate the talent. I don't think there are lionsisters out there. I have basis for this other than the fact it seems to be quite a stretch to even consider the possibility. If this was a possiblity, I can't imagine that we would have never even heard a mention of this if they did exist. Besides, it seems that the rationale for this is that it would balance wolfbrothers. Wouldn't a more likely balance for Wolf brothers be wolf sisters? I don't see how dogs and cats are opposites to balance each other.
a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-13
Something in the difference between male and female souls makes the one half of the channelers saidin-channelers, the other saidar-channelers. Remains this difference also for non-channelers. Quite possible, for channeling is additional talent for some people, while gender is option for every soul. So, it's possible, that this difference would manifest also in other not OP-related talents. So it is possible that men and women have different conditions to access T'A'R naturally (OP-usage is IMO a different case, it's forced coming into T'A'R). And the ability to speak with wolves also could depend on this difference.
About cats/dogs connection: Dogs see large cats in AS; dogs and wolves are the same species (canis lupus), and wolves (in tEotW) treat dogs in a way similar to the waoy Aiels treat Tinkers, as some kind of traitors, i.e. as the same species. Dogs are not wolves, dogs have no access to T'A'R, no contacts with wolvebrothers, etc., but something common must remain. There is some distribution between the species canis (dogs, wolves) and felis (cats) that is alalog to saidar - saidin distribution (not the same controversy of course, but in some way related.
SugarBullet: 2004-02-13
yeah, dogs and cats are really seen as balanced opposites in our current socio/cultural set up. I think it makes much more sense to think of it as parallel to the differences between saidin and saidar.
Male half seems more wild and female side is calmer and somthing that is embraced. It seems a (superficially, at least) easy correlation to make between wolfbrothers and dreamwalkers.
Flinn Sedai: 2004-02-13
It's a good theory, but it has a couple flaws. Rand. Rand has spent time around wolves because of Perrin, and Rand can dreamwalk. Also, Perring never entered TAR until after he was a full Wolfbrother.
Callandor: 2004-02-13
**and Rand can dreamwalk.**
No, Rand enters TAR in the flesh, he does not Dreamwalk.
Anubis: 2004-02-14
rand enters the dream in the flesh. there is a slight difference. moggy seems to think that being in the flesh means he can whoop up on anyone not there in the flesh, so i would go with her on that. also the mechanism for entering in the flesh is different. involves a gateway
a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-15
Rand is not a Dreamwalker, for Dreamwalking means coming to T'A'R by natural means, while Rand uses OP intervence. Dreamwalkers come in the Dream without the OP. Using channeling-needing ter'angreal every channeler can access T'A'R and access it not in flesh, but that makes them not Dreamwalkers. Forsakens can pick people from their own dreams and put them in TAR, and that people are not maid dreamwalker by that action.
dwilson: 2004-02-16
what about these 2 ideas
1- both perrin and egwene have exactly the same "talent" except the male and females halves - of having the capability to access telanrhiod
2 - when wolves "communicate" with each other that communication occurs either in or on the boundaries of telanrhiod and prolonged exposure to wolves and this type of communication "trains" the human mind to be more attuned with telanrhiod.
so remember in TEoTW when both perrin and egwene both had a long exposure to the wolves, and it wasnt long after that, that perrin began talking to wolves and egwene started becoming a dreamer. so perhaps the wolves accidently trained both of them to develop their ability.
(this is my first post so plese shoot me down easy) ;-)
minalth: 2004-02-18
its only my 2nd post too, but i think you could be right dwilson, I think myself that women have an 'affinity' for cats and men for dogs as far as our society is concerned, so maybe the wolves triggered off perrin and egwane but perrin more so... that could account for no male dreamwalkers in the waste, how many wolves are there in the waste and how many lions, lol
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-18
dwilson...I don't think that being a dreamwalker or a wolfbrother are different halves of the same talent. Unfortunetly, there is no conclusive evidence either way so that is just an opinion. However, if what you propose is true, T'A'R is a possiblity for how the communication happens for wolves and wolf brothers. However, there are some problems with this. Egwene can dream while awake but she has to put herself into a differnet mental state to do this. Perrin can just reach out and talk to the wolves. Additionally, the dead wolves reside in T'A'R. If T'A'R is the means that is used by wolves to communicate, they should be able to communicate with dead wolves. It is possible that this is how they can remember things that happened beyond the individual wolves lifetimes. However, I don't believe we have seen evidience of this.
Daekyras: 2004-02-18
I'm really bad with quotes but in some of her early dreamwalks I seem to remember egwene seeing a young-man who slipped into "the dream" for a second like women often do. On more than one occasion I think. I'll have to check the books but I believe the first time was in the white tower(in her dream).
If men can accidently slip into "the dream" like women than they most likely can dreamwalk for real otherwise how would they be able to enter the dream world without the inate ability? Proximity to dream ter'angreal seems unlikely.
Callandor: 2004-02-18
**If men can accidently slip into "the dream" like women than they most likely can dreamwalk for real otherwise how would they be able to enter the dream world without the inate ability? Proximity to dream ter'angreal seems unlikely.**
This is not Dreamwalking. This is a person in a deep enough dream sleep that the briefly enter TAR, but are there for only a few moments before going back to their regular dreams. Anyone can do this.
charliec: 2004-02-19
It's an attractive idea, but I don't think I buy it...
As people have already said- dreamers see both men and women accidentally flickering in and out of TAR, and there do seem to be male dreamers around (I don't think there's any reason to suggest that the male forsaken ONLY channel into TAR... why wouldn't they be trained in the dream as teh women from the AOL are?) Also, male heros have the same status in the dream as women (Gaidal/Birgitte). I don't think TAR is different to men and women- it's too universal for that.
As for wolfsisters- well why not? as has been pointed out we've only seen a statistically small sample, and coupled with the points about women coming into less contact with wolves we've got no reason to suppose that there can't be wolfsisters. (on top of this, RJ's wolf society is fairly gender-symmetric)
I think dreaming and wolf-talking are distinct talents, though they both use TAR. I get the impression that Perrin's experience of TAR is a little different from Dreamers', not reaching the in between world for one, but also in the way he moves through it. Admittedly this could be because he's less trained, but after this long he should be getting pretty proficient...
As for the cat-sisters thing, no way! Wolves get a special status in randland, which other animals don't seem to share. If cats used TAR in a similar way then surely dreamers would know about them as they know about wolves... and it's not because cats are domesticated, who's ever heard of a tame cat? tame humans more like it...
Daekyras: 2004-02-20
I don't want to disagree with you Callandor but I don't think that just everyone can just slip into the dream. This would leave the possibility that everyone could LEARN to be a dreanwalker, which doesn't appear to be the case.
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-20
Daekyras, I have to disagree with you. Just because someone enters T'A'R does not mean they can become a dreamwalker. It means that they reach a certain state in their sleep that brings them to T'A'R. They cannot control this. This is not unique to Dreamwalkers. However, what is unique to dreamwalkers is the ability to learn to control your sleep so as to enter T'A'R at will and manipulate T'A'R in the way you want. The ter'angreal that AS use artificially simulate the ability that Dreamwalkers are born with. Additionally, the ability to enter and manipulate T'A'R is not the only talent of Dreamwalkers. They can also predict the future with Dreams. We see this most in Egwene. However, we also have references to the Aiel wise ones having prophetic dreams. I don't think there are that many people in the world that are having prophetic dreams.
Callandor: 2004-02-20
Well, you are disagreeing for no reason.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"Almost anyone can touch Tel'aran'rhiod, but few can truly enter it. Of all the Wise Ones, we four alone can dreamwalk, and your Tower has not produced a dreamwalker in nearly five hundred years. It is not a thing of the One Power, though Aes Sedai believe it is. I cannot channel, nor can Seana, yet we dreamwalk as well as Amys or Melaine. Many people brush the World of Dreams in their sleep. Because they only brush against it, they wake with aches or pains where they should have broken bones or mortal hurts. A dreamwalker enters the dream fully, therefore her injuries are real on waking. For one who is fully in the dream, dreamwalker or not, death there is death here. To enter the dream too completely, though, is to lose touch with the flesh; there is no way back, and the flesh dies. It is said that once there were those who could enter the dream in the flesh, and no longer be in this world at all. This was an evil thing, for they did evil; it must never be attempted, even if you believe it possible for you, for each time you will lose some part of what makes you human. You must learn to enter Tel'aran'rhiod when you wish, to the degree you wish.**
Daekyras: 2004-02-23
I was actually mixing myself up! I agree with you that everyone cannot dreamwalk like egwene, but the fact they can touch the dream at all implies that using the same ring as elayne and nynaeve they could enter the dreamworld. Sorry, i should have known this isn't described as dreamwalking.
Also, are the forsaken always in T'A'R for real or when demandred and the others are meeting, are the dreamwalking? (you know, when Birgette helps the girls to spy, etc.?)
charliec: 2004-02-23
I've tended to assume that the forsaken usually dream their way into TAR, certainly Moghedien does, and Lanfear did. The only ones that we know use it in the flesh (I think) are Demandred, and Rahvin shortly before his death.
There is apparently a danger of using it in the flesh- I think the Aiel called it losing some humanity- and I assume the forsaken know this, Rahvin only fled to TAR in great desperation, and while Demandred was using it in the flesh he was also using the TP heavily- I think he was expecting to be Nae'Blis at that time, and clearly didn't fear the dangers.
Uh, we've strayed kinda off topic here, but in a valiant effort to redirect...
Someone suggested that Luc/Isam was a wolfbrother gone bad, and hence able to use the dreamworld. Evidence against this- he enters the dreamworld in the flesh, not the wolfdream, and I've always assumed that was the reason for his odd, inhuman smell to Perrin.
Callandor: 2004-02-23
Moggy Dreamwalks in TFOH, Ishamael entered TAR in the flesh in TDR, Lanfear we don't know about for sure but she may either enter the flesh (hence where her white palace always is) or dreams in, Ravhin entered TAR in the flesh, and Dem I do not believe we can guess at. Any others that you can think of you can add.
: 2004-02-25
**I agree with you that everyone cannot dreamwalk like egwene, but the fact they can touch the dream at all implies that using the same ring as elayne and nynaeve they could enter the dreamworld. Sorry, i should have known this isn't described as dreamwalking.**
Are you saying that everyone that ever enters TAR uses a ter'angreal? Or just those who enter briefly? Or what?
I have two quotes that I think seal this debate for good. Both from the same chapter:
**TITLE: The Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 11 - What Lies Hidden
Tel'aran'rhiod. The Unseen World. The World of Dreams. *Not the dreams of ordinary people; though sometimes they touched Tel'aran'rhiod briefly, in dreams that seemed as true as life.* Because they were. In the Unseen World, what happened was real, in a strange way. Nothing that happened thre affected what was--a door opened in the World of Dreams would still be shut in the real world; a tree cut down there still stood here--yet a woman could be killed there, or stilled. "Strange" barely began to describe it. In the Unseen World the whole world lay open, and maybe other worlds, too; any place was attainable. Or at least, its reflextion in the World of Dreams was. The weave of the Pattern could be read there--past, present and future--by one who knew how. By a Dreamer. There had not been a Dreamer in the White Tower since Corianin Nedeal, nearly five hundred years earlier.**
**TITLE: The Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 11 - What Lies Hidden
Once she did see another person walking ahead of her, a man in gilded, ornately worked plate-and-mail armor, a pointed golden helmet crested with white plums under his arm. "Aeldra?" he called, smiling. "Aeldra, come look at me. I am named the Lord Captain of the Panarch's Legion. Aeldra?" He walked on another pace, still calling, and suddenly was not there. Not a Dreamer. Not even someone using a ter'angreal like her stone ring or Amico's iron disc. Only a man whose dream had touched a place he was not aware of, with dangers he did not know. People who died unexpectedly in their sleep had often dreamed their way into Tel'aran'rhiod and in through had died there. He was well out of it, back into an ordinary dream.**
There are two more incidents involving average people in Tel'aran'rhiod in this same chapter, but I think they are pretty useless to quote, unless wanted.
charliec: 2004-02-26
thanks for that callandor, again though Ishamael enters the Dreamworld in desperation- fleeing from Rand, using it's mutability to attack him as Rahvin did.
Lanfear claims the dreamworld for her own domain... I'm inclined to think that she dreamwalks it though, rather than entering it in the flesh, partly because those who are there in the flesh are more limited (as Moggy says, I think) even though they are more dangerous in some ways.
Daekyras: 2004-02-26
*Are you saying that everyone that ever enters TAR uses a ter'angreal? Or just those who enter briefly? Or what?*
I was saying that the people who touch T'A'R in their dreams have the potential to enter it using a ter'angreal such as the ring.
It's much like this- I can't swim. I try and after a little bit of floating I alwayas sink. But with a buoyancy aid I can swim, not perfectly but not badly either.
These people can't dreamwalk(swim), but can touch it in their dreams briefly(float for a few seconds) but with the rings(buoyancy aid) can do the same as Elayne and Nynaeve.
IMO men could with the aid of a ring.
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-26
**I was saying that the people who touch T'A'R in their dreams have the potential to enter it using a ter'angreal such as the ring.**
why would someone have to have the potential to dreamwalk to be able to use the ring??? The ring Egwene got appears to work for anyone. The others require a weave of spirit. IMO, anyone with a ring like Egwene's can enter T'A'R. However, anyone who can channel saidar (possibly saidin but we don't have info one way or the other) can use the ter'angreal like Elayne's disk to enter T'A'R.
Using your example, even someone that is physically unable to swim (through physical deformities) can still float if provided with a flotation device. The ability to float with the use of a flotation device is not predicated upon the ability to learn to swim.
Daekyras: 2004-02-27
The question is whether or not men can be in T'A'R without being wolfbrothers. I was merely saying that the fact some can touch it by accident implies that with the aid of a ring they could touch it in the same way as Elayne and Nynaeve.
We have not seen a man use that ring in the series and I was just saying that I think it would be possible for a man to "dreamwalk" using it.
Unicorn: 2004-02-27
Oh please!
you are nit-picking, basically because you don't have anything substancial to disprove Daekyras's idea. yes that is you Callandor, and to some extend Dragonscetor. What the wise ones know is as much as "present day" AS knows about channeling compared to the people of AOL,(either Lanfear or Moggy comments on this at sometime or other) so what they say is not conclusive. from Callandor's quote above "Almost anyone can touch Tel'aran'rhiod, but few can truly enter it." I don't think the wise ones actually took hold of this Stone Dog or that Thunder Walker they saw skipping in and out last night. They would probably come down on some Maiden like bats out of hell. Why? a male dream walker would be strategically bad news for wise ones, as itt is one of the thing that make them wise ones. So I would count them out as a truly reliable source.
As for the second two quotes, I am sure i can qoute you when I say :What do they prove? :-) Nothing zip zero - the qoutes are A: a repetition of the white towers knowledge and B: an incident when a man(or it maight be Aeldra herself for all I know) touches TAR - and this disproves what?
I have not seen heard read or dreamed any conclusive evidence that men cannot learn to be dreamwalkers, even without being wolfbrothers. I think that Daekyras might be on to something, and maybe being stomped on som hard from the outset got his or her arguments a bit muddled so here is my intrepretation :
Draemwalking might be compared to channeling some are born with it (Egwene) and some can learn (Aeldra's boyfriend?). Those who skip off TAR being at least of the second category. Further the ring ter'angreal should work for those of both categories disregarding gender. (now Daekyras if I misread you, we'll just say it's my own idea OK). End of story - this ofcourse is largely conjecture but arguments against have also been conjecture(and worse). So Daekyras if you will (and can, I cannot) make a faction saying "Men have the right to dream too" or some such I'm in!!!
Why is it so hard to believe, the two rivers was full to bursting with potential channelers - and had been for several hundred years and yet the popular belief was that only very few could "listen to the wind"(this being a quaint two rivers ezpression for channeling - do you need a qoute Callandor) It certainly could not be learned. duhh yes it could. why not dreaming as well?
With regards to the forsaken - Moggy certainly could dreamwalk. Ishamael and Lanfear, we don't truly know about but both of them could also enter the dreams of other people, now I know they might go intp the vast nothingness in the flesh but, the possiblility of this has not even been hinted at, so I would think that both Lanfear and Ishamael could dreamwalk as well - Ishy going there in the flesh proves nothing so did Egwene - If this is true then I have received help from one you shoould not trust to help you - The betrayer of Hope, helped me prove men can dreamwalk! how do you like that - get that blow torch ready Callandor, I'm a big boy I can take it, and I know you are phenomenal with the facts and stuff but sometime your responses are somewhat condescending and I get in this mood at those times, I don't believe that i have changed your mind for one second but you will not change mine by posts that ooze selfconfidence but nothing else :-)
squalish: 2004-02-27
Just a note on male dreamwalking: It is implied that among the Wise Ones, it is rare but not unheard of.
WH, chapter 10:
For an instant, Elayne gaped. He had not just accidentally dreamed himself into Tel'aran'rhiod, or he would have vanished by now, but she could still hear his boots, loud on the floor tiles. Either he was a dreamwalker—rare among men, so the Wise Ones said—or he had a ter'angreal of his own.
Davian93: 2004-02-27
****With regards to the forsaken - Moggy certainly could dreamwalk. Ishamael and Lanfear, we don't truly know about but both of them could also enter the dreams of other people, now I know they might go intp the vast nothingness in the flesh but, the possiblility of this has not even been hinted at, so I would think that both Lanfear and Ishamael could dreamwalk as well****
Lanfear definitely could. Moggy makes a comment in tFoH about how she had tp "share" TAR with Lanfear. Also only Dreamwalkers can enters others dreams like Lanfear did.
Callandor: 2004-02-27
**I was saying that the people who touch T'A'R in their dreams have the potential to enter it using a ter'angreal such as the ring.**
Yes, anyone can use the ter'angreal ring to enter Tel'aran'rhoid, but that does not show that they have any ability to Dreamwalk.
** was merely saying that the fact some can touch it by accident implies that with the aid of a ring they could touch it in the same way as Elayne and Nynaeve.**
As said before, anyone who wears the ring enters Tel'aran'rhoid.
Any common person who dreams themself into Tel'aran'rhoid is there only a few moments; they barely touch it. Anyone who Dreamwalks, enters Tel'aran'rhoid in the flesh or uses a ter'angreal is there fully. That is the difference. Anyone can nick it or be there for a moment or two if they dream deeply enough, but that does not give them the ability to enter Tel'aran'rhoid.
**What the wise ones know is as much as "present day" AS knows about channeling compared to the people of AOL,(either Lanfear or Moggy comments on this at sometime or other) so what they say is not conclusive.**
What? Where the heck is this little piece of information? Wise Ones are the only ones of knowledge about Dreamwalking anywhere now, and if you think they don't know as much as the Forsaken like Moggy and Lanfear it could be quite true (since you know, they are real masters of it with their lots of experience), but to say they aren't conclusive is just stupid. They know what they are doing.
**Why? a male dream walker would be strategically bad news for wise ones, as itt is one of the thing that make them wise ones. So I would count them out as a truly reliable source.**
Again, What? You can be a Wise One without being a Dreamwalker. Sorilea is concidered the strongest Wise One (not in channeling or anything but STRENGTH of will), and she cannot Dreamwalk or channel all that strongly. So, going by what you said, how is she able to control and lead people? More over, how is she a Wise One?
**As for the second two quotes, I am sure i can qoute you when I say :What do they prove? :-) Nothing zip zero - the qoutes are A: a repetition of the white towers knowledge and B: an incident when a man(or it maight be Aeldra herself for all I know) touches TAR - and this disproves what?**
1. We have been given no indication what so ever that the first quote is false in any way. It is a statement of fact.
2. Ordinary people just touch Tel'aran'rhoid briefly. It proves the first quote valid.
**I have not seen heard read or dreamed any conclusive evidence that men cannot learn to be dreamwalkers, even without being wolfbrothers.**
Where did I say this? I believe it the exact opposite. I believe that there are men who can learn to be Dreamwalkers, but not only as Wolfbrothers. That is where I disagree.
**Ishy going there in the flesh proves nothing so did Egwene - If this is true then I have received help from one you shoould not trust to help you - The betrayer of Hope, helped me prove men can dreamwalk! how do you like that - get that blow torch ready Callandor, I'm a big boy I can take it, and I know you are phenomenal with the facts and stuff but sometime your responses are somewhat condescending and I get in this mood at those times, I don't believe that i have changed your mind for one second but you will not change mine by posts that ooze selfconfidence but nothing else :-)**
Again, I HAVE NOT SAID THAT MEN CANNOT DREAMWALK. If anything I feel that I more or less proved that with the Wise One quote from ACOS that they know that men do Dreamwalk, they just ignore them.
Also, we have only seen Ishy's way of entering Tel'aran'rhoid once, in TDR, and he does that by a gateway, hence in the flesh. That does not mean at all that he can only enter it in that way, just a statement of fact that we have ONLY seen him enter it that way. He could Dreamwalk and just used it because he needed to that time, we can't go either way on it and frankly it doesn't matter.
And, if you have a problem with me telling facts or at least giving my opinion, get over it.
charliec: 2004-02-28
Unicorn, I may be misunderstanding... are you saying that to use the ring ter'angreal to enter the dreaming you have to have the potential to dreamwalk?
If so, I'd disagree, all the evidence so far has been that #anyone# using the rings could enter TAR, male, female, channeler, normal. This is held up by the fact that so far everyone who's tried to use them has succeeded.
As far as I understand it: anyone can dream themselves briefly into TAR, and these are the people that we keep seeing flashing in and out of it (although not when big battles are going on, that'd be too complicated for the readers ;o) ).
Dreamwalkers are those who can exert a degree of control over their experience in TAR- partly through talent, partly through training. Whether anyone can develop skills as a dreamer (even limited ones) is unclear, but Egwene certainly teaches the other girls some tricks. Whether men can be dreamers is also unclear, but the evidence of the forsaken and some characters' throw-away comments suggest it is possible.
Wolf-talking appears to be a separate talent, which may or may not be gender linked.
Any objections?
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-28
**you are nit-picking, basically because you don't have anything substancial to disprove Daekyras's idea. yes that is you Callandor, and to some extend Dragonscetor.***
I don't disagree that men can dreamwalk. I think they can. I also don't disagree that the Ring Ter'angreal would allow a man to enter T'A'R. I think it would. What I disagree with is the idea that because someone touches T'A'R for brief moments that means that they can learn to dreamwalk. Granted, there is no substantial evidence to disprove this idea. However, there is circumstantial evidence to make this idea very unlikely and that is what I am basing my opinion on.
Second, (and yes I am going to nit-pick because it is in the details that theories are made or brokern) using ter'angreal to enter T'A'R is NOT dreamwalking. As I posted above, dreamwalking comprises more of just being able to enter T'A'R. Some ter'angreal simulate the experience of dreamwalking but they are not dreamwalking.
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-28
charliec, I agree with you. I do not think that being a wolfbrother is tied to being a dreamwalker. I think they are two seperate and distinct talents. My Opinion is that this is demonstrated by the different methods and experiences in T'A'R that Egwene and Perrin have.
: 2004-02-28
First off Charliec, that is not it exactly, what I mean is those who drop in to TAR briefly has the "talent", whether or not this I prerequisite to using the ring I don't know – what I said was that I does not disqualify you from using it. The Wise ones say that ALMOST every one can enter TAR briefly but few can enter truly enter it. I think most would agree Avi is not a dreamwalker - but she can enter the dream from TSR chapter 50, (page 840, orbit paperback) “I cannot enter the Dream without one of them to help me....”, Apparently she did not have the talent enough to gain total control. My point is that if you can unconsciously enter TAR, then you are able to become a dreamwalker, IF you can learn to control your dreaming, and I think that the discipline involved with this is far more rare, that the ability to reach TAR.
But it appears that I agree with both you and Callandor, Men can Dream without being wolfbrothers. So no objections
I do however still hold to a couple of thing, for one Aiel Wise ones don't know all about Dreamwalking, I know the quote is there somewhere, but I used more time to find the one above, when I find it I will be back and no one will know what I'm talking about. Just to be clear no one said that they knew about the same about dreamwalking as channelling, but one of either Lanfear or Moghedien reflects on the dreamwalkers, when spying on them, that they walk about blindfolded or some such – much in the same terms as when the forsaken is amused/insulted by “present day” AS's abilities, you really do not read between the lines these days. Therefore I do not think that whatever the Wise Ones say is necessarily the whole truth, perhaps I should have said Exhaustive instead of Conclusive.
And no Callandor I know you don't have to be a Dreamwalker to be a wise one, again maybe I should have said it differently(so I will not accuse you of misquoting me), It is ONE of the thingS that make them wise ones. I don't recall hearing about a single Aiel Dreamwalking woman who is NOT a wise one. And hopefully you will agree that there are no male wise ones. And even when/if they should discover one they would not be likely to want to teach him.
[long thoughtful silence and frowning} are you perchance a member of the Spanish inquisition? Since when have something undisputed become a statement of FACT, that is the thinking of Inquisitors, or others like that. DO NOT QUESTION (MY) FACTS,(please see the joke) it is also the way the Tower has probably missed any dreamer since Coreanin. As to how seeing a Taraboner guardsman, or whatever, proves the Towers knowledge is totally beyond me. Totally. These quotes are introspective looks into Egwene's knowledge, it is her own thoughts or reasoning, number two is based on number one. What you are saying is that Egwene explains the man presence by using Tower knowledge, and thereby proving Towers knowledge.
As for the last part, about Ishy I was not (as I will admit to doing in other parts) harassing you but just giving my opinion.
And I respect your opinion very much. I think you are very often really persuasive, because your evidence is well researched, BUT you do not seem to respect other's opinion in your responses from time to time. I have nothing against you stating facts and opinions – but get straight which is which, sometimes it is my opinion that you get them mixed up, and that is a fact :-)
~Note from Tamyrlin: Okay, you both have said your peace to each other, now keep your responses on the topic at hand...and I guess that is a fact...:)~
Daekyras: 2004-03-01
Thank you Unicorn, :-)
As for the debate, I think everyone is basically re-iterating the same points.
1. Wolfbrother is not necessarily a Male dreamwalker.
2. Anyone can touch T'A'R briefly in their dreams.
3. The ring could allow anyone to touch it though THIS IS NOT "DREAMWALKING".
4.Men can briefly touch it in their dreams.
My point was that men can touch it by accident so this leads to the possiblity that Men could touch it at will. There is no mention in any of the books that any talent is gender specific(I think!). Just that one power ability can be gender related(water, spirit etc). But, again, dreamwalking is not of the power.
There is no proof that men can't dreamwalk other than we have never seen it blatantly onscreen.
Finally (and hopefully Callandor can help me with a quote,:-P) I think i remember one of the male forsaken or maybe even the gholam describing egwene's ring as a "ring used to teach dreamwalking..."
Just a thought.
5.there is No such thing as a Lionsister!
Dorindha: 2004-03-01
I've read it recently, so I think it's in WH but when Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene are meeting in the Andoran throne room and see Isam/Luc (in his Luc incarnation) Egwene's POV says that the WOs say dreamwalking is RARE among men - not unheard of.
Presumably, seeing how rare it is in women, it's even rarer in men, so it is not exactly common.
Unicorn: 2004-03-01
Something about this Lionsister has bugged me from the onset, I never believed it, but I couldn't pinpoint the reason. So I have been thinking hard, and just thought of the time when Egwene NEEDED to be somewhere, she thought it was in Tanchico, but ended up in the Waste. She interupted Amys hunting a lion, Now how do you think Perrin would fell even at the suggestion of hunting wolves in the dream?, not bloody likely, need I say Slayer.
On the other hand it might have been a boar she hunted i don't truly remember.
Callandor: 2004-03-01
**As for the debate, I think everyone is basically re-iterating the same points.
1. Wolfbrother is not necessarily a Male dreamwalker.
2. Anyone can touch T'A'R briefly in their dreams.
3. The ring could allow anyone to touch it though THIS IS NOT "DREAMWALKING".
4.Men can briefly touch it in their dreams.**
I agree with all points but the first. I do believe that Wolfbrothers are male Dreamwalkers. BUT, I don't believe that ALL male Dreamwalkers are Wolfbrothers.
**Finally (and hopefully Callandor can help me with a quote,:-P) I think i remember one of the male forsaken or maybe even the gholam describing egwene's ring as a "ring used to teach dreamwalking..."**
It's in Lord of Chaos.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 7 - A Matter of Thought
Demandred moved out from behind the columns of the Grand Hall and looked from the two thrones to where the girl had vanished. Elayne Trakand, unless he missed his guess wildly, and using a minor ter'angreal by the faint look of her, one made for training beginning students. He would have given much to know what was in her head, but her words and expression had been plain enough. She did not like what al'Thor was doing here, not in the least, and meant to do something about it. A determined young woman, he suspected. In any case, another thread in the tangle yanked, however feeble the pull turned out to be.**
**So I have been thinking hard, and just thought of the time when Egwene NEEDED to be somewhere, she thought it was in Tanchico, but ended up in the Waste. She interupted Amys hunting a lion, Now how do you think Perrin would fell even at the suggestion of hunting wolves in the dream?, not bloody likely, need I say Slayer.
On the other hand it might have been a boar she hunted i don't truly remember.**
Not sure what it means for this, but it was a sort of boar animal.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 11 - What Lies Hidden
She took a step toward the square, and suddenly she was somewhere else. Great stone spires rose around her in a heat that sucked the moisture out of her breath. The sun seemed to hake right through her dress, and the breeze blowing in her face seemed to come from a stove. Stunted trees dotted a landscape almost bare of other growth, except for a few patches of tough grass and some prickly plants she did not recognize. She recognized the lion, however, even if she had never seen one in the flesh. It lay in a crevice in the rocks not twenty paces away, black tufted tail switching idly, looking not at her but at something another hundred strides on. The large boar covered in coarse hair was rooting and snuffling at the base of a thorny bush, never noticing the Aiel woman creeping up on it with a spear ready to thrust. Garbed like the Aiel in the Stone, she had her shonfa around her head but her face uncovered.
...
The Waste, Egwene thought incredulously. I've jumped into the Aiel Waste! When will I learn to watch what I think here? The Aiel woman froze. Her eyes were on Egwene now, not the boar. If it was a boar; it did not seem to be shaped exactly right.**
Unicorn: 2004-03-02
Thnaks for the quote Callandor, It mean that my argument as to why there is no such thing as "Lionsisters" didn't work out, as the idea was that Amys would not hunt Lions, if she was a so called Lionsister, I still don't believe in Lionsisters though - the sharp observer might claim the lions presence in this scene indicates otherwise
matoyak: 2004-08-11
read about half of these and decided to put in a few tidbits to be grinded up. the only male that we have seen enter the dreamworld in the dream is perrin. THE ONLY one we know for sure has entered not in the flesh. (yes elays is a wolfbro but i don't think we have alot (if any) of his p.o.v.'s B.T.W.....W.T.F. does iirc mean?) we see either rahvin or moridin in caemlyn spying on the superwomen. (quotemasters pls help.dnt have books wth me) ishy in tDR and tEotW and (i think) tSR, and all in the flesh. B.T.W. every one of the forsaken excepting ishy/moridin are afraid of using the TP (which can only be drawn with the DO's blessing anyway) yes i think there might be wolf sis's but we won't see them ever, and yes i think that in order to get to be able to enter in the dream a man has to be a wolfbro. this implies that either the men were in the flesh and the women not or they were all in the flesh (which B.T.W. i douht [SP?]) B.T.W. i thought that they were not even in T'A'R and that they just traveled to that meating. (that would explain demies thoughts about it being hard for semi to come [being on a ship surrounded by damane it would be pretty hard to travel without screaming out "hello everybody i'm not really anath the truth speaker i'm actually a forsaken that has come to spell out doom to the whole world"
matoyak: 2004-08-11
'course i could be thinking of the wrong meeting! :~) if so would all of y'all quotemasters give me the write one? thank you :)
matoyak: 2004-08-11
BAM! shot down. whoops i muffed up. i finished reading all of them and realised that y'all are probably right and that wolfbro is different and that men can learn to dreamwalk. (quote and nitpicking are great! :p) no it does not mean that if you can brush it you can develope it to where you can become a dreamwalker. that does not correspond with any of anyones thoughts (unless you have a handy quote on hand? :p)
Callandor: 2004-08-12
**(yes elays is a wolfbro but i don't think we have alot (if any) of his p.o.v.'s B.T.W.....W.T.F. does iirc mean?)**
We have no PoV's of Elyas. IIRC = If I Recall Correctly.
** we see either rahvin or moridin in caemlyn spying on the superwomen. (quotemasters pls help.dnt have books wth me) ishy in tDR and tEotW and (i think) tSR, and all in the flesh. B.T.W. every one of the forsaken excepting ishy/moridin are afraid of using the TP (which can only be drawn with the DO's blessing anyway)**
Rahvin was stationed in Caemlyn with Morgase, and he only goes into Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh in his battle with Rand (that we know of; almost certainly entered the flesh to meet with Graendal, Sammael, and Lanfear).
Moridin appeared in ACOS, and we haven't seen him in Tel'aran'rhiod as of yet.
Ishamael was in Tel'aran'rhiod a lot in TEoTW, TGH, and TDR. We know for sure that he entered into Tel'aran'rhiod in TDR to flee from Rand. He also died in TDR.
**yes i think there might be wolf sis's but we won't see them ever, and yes i think that in order to get to be able to enter in the dream a man has to be a wolfbro.**
In LoC, Delana meets Aran'gar for the first time, and she remembers that that name was in her dreams. Now how did it get into her dreams, if Aran'gar didn't do it? Makes no sense if another Forsaken did it (who would?). So it stands to chance Aran'gar is a dreamwalker (and by implication Bathamel was too). Doubtful they can/could sense and talk to wolves.
**i thought that they were not even in T'A'R and that they just traveled to that meating.**
Well, it doesn't matter if they were in Tel'aran'rhiod or not; you still have to open a gateway to enter Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh.