1
Tamyrlin: 2004-02-21
Personally, I think Jordan is going to let us wonder about this one for Ages. Is Rand dead or alive? As we see the girls take him away on the boat, we will be left hanging, and Jordan will never give us an answer; the next RAFO that will keep us talking for years.
2
Davian93: 2004-02-21
I figure he'll end up going across the sea with the Elves. Oh wait, wrong fantasy novel.
Seriously though, I agree, it never states that he has to die at the Last Battle. It does state that he will die though. "Twice to live and twice to die. Twice dawns the day...etc." So Rand will die and most likely at the Last Battle even if it isnt stated. Of course he also knows from the ter'angreal that in order to live he must die. So its a guarantee he will die at some point.
3
Eelfinn Ty: 2004-02-21
"Twice the Dragon, for the price he must psy."
Might this refer to the two dragons on Rand's forarms? The price he must pay would be the breaking and possible destruction of his people (Aiel). Just a thought.
4
Zaela Sedai: 2004-02-22
Of course Rand will die, everybody dies, I just don't think he'll die right after or at the LB.
And if RJ ends the series with him and the girls on the boat, I may kill myself or the nearest person to me :)
5
Korell: 2004-02-23
umm i thought the quote was twice the dragon shall he be marked twice the dragons for the price he must pay
i will state the odvious the dragons referred to are the ones he recieves from RH
i think the price is the destruction of his people after he has just discovered them just a thought on this part
6
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-23
While I think this is an intersting idea, I don't think that there are any actual Dragons in Randland anymore. There has never been a mention of one (at least that I can remember. If you can find some quotes please share).
I think that "Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay." is definately a reference to the dragons on his arms. IIRC, it also uses the terminology in conjuction when talking about being marked twice with the herons as well.
Additionally, LTT has been referred to as the "Dragon" not the "Dragon Reborn." I am a dedicated two souler and I believe that LTT will die in TG and Rand will live on.
7
brother of Battles: 2004-02-24
If you are going to brake down a phrophecy, you need to remember the whole of it first. The very beginning of the phrophecy stats-"twice and twice he shall be marked, twice to live and twice to die." "Once the haron to set his path, Twice the haron to name him true." "Once the dragon for remembrence lost, Twice the dragon for the price he has to pay."
Twice to live and Twice to die- It is my belief that LTT really is in some way inside Rands head, therefore, that part of the phrophecy refers to him. Rand has not lived twice, so he can not die twice.
As for the dragons, they are absolutly referring to the ones on his arms, just as the harons are the ones on his hands. after all the phrophecy states "twice and twice shall he be marked."
OK, to finnish up, I just want to say that it is my belief that phrophecy is not an absolute view of that is going to happen. I think it is just a means to have an idea of what to expect. That is way it is always so vague. There is no where in the phrophecy that states Rand will win at the last battle, just as there is no sure tellings if he will die or not. It says his blood will stain the black rocks, but if you get a cut on your finger, your blood will still gush out and stain. There that is all I am saying.
8
Korell: 2004-02-25
Thanks for the actual quote on the phrophecy i could not remeber it word for word
Dragonsceptor RJ has debuncked the 2 souls one body theory
LTT is a figment of Rands subcontious created by the taint on saidan Rands Soul is the Soul of the dragon not LTT put into Rands body he was born with LTT's soul the Dragon has one soul and as far as we know a soul cannot be split in half. If there is some other way that LTT's soul could possible be a second soul i would like to know how this conclusion was come about this is not directed to anyone in particular but to the group who still believe that Rand and LTT are somhow 2 diffrent souls
9
Mairashda: 2004-02-25
Korell, i agree that lews therin is a creation of rands subconscious... not as a result from the taint, though but as a mechanism to cope with the memories he gained while he was visiting TAR in the flesh.
10
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-25
Korell...yeah I know. However, if people can still believe in Taimendred when that has clearly been debunked, I can still believe in Two Souls. The two souls theory just makes the most sense to me and RJ is not infallible.
11
Blacksmith: 2004-02-25
Here are some of the prophecy quotes:
TDR,Ch2
"Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."
AND
TDR,Ch6
He "shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf."
I have always considered that the two dragons were those imprinted on his arms while in Rhuidean.
Once for remembrance lost - the history of the Aiel.
Twice for the price he must pay - slaying his people with the sword of peace, destroying them with the way of the leaf. How many have given up in despair? Plus all of the people who are going to die because of his orders.
12
moonstar404: 2004-03-03
Whereas I find Rand to be a cool character, I think he's going to die in the end. If you look at studies made of our world's mythology, heroes that end up being savior-of-everything types, tend to die (check Joseph Campbell, etc. for the studies). We know Robert Jordan has done intensive reading of mythology, because of the allusions he makes to the mythology viz. names, places, events occuring that occur in our mythology. From these two things, and the fact that the books keep saying "his blood shall stain the slopes at Shayol Ghul, etc" I think we can safely say that the odds are not on his side.
Besides, what reason do we have for wanting Rand to live? He has a purpose in life, and once he fulfills it, will he be happy continuing on in life? After he wins and everything, what will he do? Go back to Andor and cuddle with his harem for the rest of his natural life? I don't think so.
13
charliec: 2004-03-04
Personally, I think he lives, but not happily ever after. IMO the prophecies + viewings indicate a fairly difficult time for Rand (and the world) after TG. Partly I think this is because despite having beaten the enemy, he'll still have to contend with the petty evils of human behaviour which hinder him setting up a decent civilized society... how depressing!
14
Unicorn: 2004-03-04
"....will he be happy continuing on in life? After he wins and everything, what will he do? Go back to Andor and cuddle with his harem for the rest of his natural life? I don't think so. "
And just WHY would that not be comfy??? much as I like this community you might need your nose out of the books i could be fun :o)
I don't think Rand will die, that seems too, I don't know, harsh. In another current theory Sugarbullet put forth an appantly old idea that Nynaeve will heal Rands death, I think she will have the help of the number two healer - Damer Flinn. Those two will rediscover how to work together Man and Woman. Although I think the healing will come almost instantaneous, sort of like what is nessecery when they use those shock pads in real life.
15
Anubis: 2004-03-04
im sorry.... 3 women that love you/you love them / they love eachother... of course rand is gonna go cuddle with his harem.
16
free will: 2004-03-05
To live, Rand must die, Logain must step past Rand to achieve glory that few men dream of, and the bore must be undone before the AoL comes again. The "Last Battle" can't be the end of time (records from the fourth age post-date the event), so it is the last battle with the DO, so it ends by undoing the bore. Finally, the DO and the Dragon (on behalf of the Creator) have fought to stalemate many times, but apparantly something involving the Dragon is the only way the DO can truly win, and dying isn't it because the Dragon has died before.
In tGH portal stone trip, the DO (or Ishy) says "I have won" each time Rand dies, but clearly that is the stalemate situation.
As Moiraine says, things in T'A'R are sometimes more real than things in the "real" world. So clearly the bore is undone in T'A'R. We don't know how balefire works in T'A'R (time flows differently) or what Shayol Ghul is like in T'A'R (never seen it in the books), but the bore will be undone there, and by Logain. Rand will have to stage his own death to distract the DO from Logain's mission and as the only way to keep PF from pursueing him the rest of Rand's life. Rand will have to hide as a beggar for the remainder of his years. I'm tired, so I'm sorry I can't provide more evidence from the books, this sounds more like a prediction than a theory. Maybe the next DO will be PF (someone else's theory, but I think it's possible), if so SL seems a likely thin spot in the pattern for Lanfear to bore through next time with all that balefire action, so it will be the Shayol Ghul of the next cycle.
There could be some simultaneous action going on. Logain in T'A'R, and Rand in the "real" world, doing the same thing, but the DO only paying attention to (and only trying to stop) Rand. Remeber the BWB says that men can't link, but a group of men can still weave together, they just each have to spin a web that is a thread in a larger weave instead of one spinner using the strength of all to spin one web. That's obviously how the Hundred Companions did their feat without women. The BWB says that that procedure just is harder to do with the same dexterity as a single spinner (and dexterity is important in sealing the DO, according to the BWB). Also, just as Nynaeve created an a'dam in T'A'R, maybe a strong enough effort can make a seal in T'A'R around the DO. And maybe if someone enters in the flesh they can concentrate forever. Maybe one of the secrets Lanfear knows about T'A'R is that to make the bore she killed the Logain (obviously not Rand since LTT was already born and only one soul to go around) from six ages before her.
The greatest irony is if the Logain from the previous Age wasn't killed and instead is the current DO (rather than last cycle's PF)! It is as likely as PF being the next DO and more ironic, but overall I consider both to be unlikely. But T'A'R is essential because Verin talks about being free in one implying free in all and that he must be sealed in all to be sealed in any world. The DO clearly must be sealed in T'A'R.
17
EatMe: 2004-03-07
anyone read ender's game and the child of the mind?
ender split into two conscience with 2 bodies and then later one dies so the other can live
18
Grane: 2004-03-08
The vision that Rand can almost make out, when the colors blur, of another mans face is the original Dragon (not Lews Therin) a.k.a the Fisher. He will be the one to die because he is the true Dragon. Rand is a reincarnation, but not the Dragon everyone else thinks he is.
19
Davian93: 2004-03-10
****Rand is a reincarnation, but not the Dragon everyone else thinks he is.****
All "Dragons" past, present, future share the same soul, so in effect if one dies they all die. Rand is the Dragon for the Third Age just as LTT was the Dragon for the AoL and so on. Same soul, different personalities.
20
Malkier: 2004-03-14
Hello. Just found this site, thought I would post on this one because it was the only one I could read through tonight :)
Anyways, I thought it was pretty obvious that Rand was going to live, but everyone would probably think he was dead (which is what he would want anyways). I remember Rand quoting, either from Prophecy or from the Finns "In order to live, you must die". I dont think thats a literal death, just thought to be dead, like Moiraine's "a woman long dead and gone". Also I believe it was Egwene who had a dream about Logain stepping over Rands grave and chuckling to himself. I dont think Logain would mock Rands death, I think he just knows the truth, that he really isnt dead.
Alivia is supposed to help him "die". Im not sure here. Perhaps a trade off for an eventual alliance with the Seanchan is for Rand to go be the Empress' pet or something, and Alivia goes with? That sounds silly so probably not, but theres really a few ways for her to help. I imagine she could cover it up somehow, she seems to be an intelligent women when it comes to the power.
21
Cossack: 2004-03-16
What is a possibility is that Rand will die, and will seal the bore shut. But just like last time, the seals will start to weaken and a new dragon will be born.
The wheel of time- no end to it.
22
matoyak: 2004-08-11
Elder Haman posted some ideas about two souls in one body under theories: Padan Fain: multipule souls in one body. we know that it is possible that there can be two souls in one body because of slayer and how he made those references about becoming isam and becoming luc. i always thought that rand/LTT was elder haman's #2 fading into #3. those #'s are off of that theory i told y'all about. i think that when rand gets trapped by the seanchan he will have to pretend to be killed by alivia and will have to become a blind begger to make the seanchan not find him. ~that is the to live you must die deal, and the alivia will help you die~ then he might get caught asnd as punishment the forsaked semirhage (anath) will put the an adam braclet (NOT the sad bracelets) and perrin will show up and save him by cutting off his hand (or if he was linked to elane or aviendha then he might cut off his own hand ~of course that would go for probably any woman for that matter~) ~that covers alot of things~ then at TG i think that he will be kill by either lanfear or fain and moriane (that's right folks *moriane*) will balefire that person to where rand is back alive. ~whew that covers alot~ give me anything i missed pls because i want to write a good thoery about this. (quotemasters some quotes would help. :p )
23
matoyak: 2004-08-11
to add some more tidbits to my earlier posting we also know about two souls one body from Fain too. p.s. thats and as punisment the forsaken semirehage (anath) will put *an* adam braclet (not the sad bracelets) on him. hope that clears that up!
24
Anubis: 2004-08-11
largest problem is that were talking about robert jordan. do you honestly think he could fit that much plot into a single book? at most two?
25
Callandor: 2004-08-12
**thats and as punisment the forsaken semirehage (anath) will put *an* adam braclet (not the sad bracelets) on him.**
So she would kill herself by putting it on, AND if she doesn't die, be under the effects of the a'dam? To be under the control of the a'dam, the necklace goes around your neck. The bracelet is for the controller.
26
matoyak: 2004-08-13
no callandor...i meant that she puts it on him and (elayn?...aveindha?...Alivia?) p.s. don't they put the coller on a damane and the bracelet on the man to cause the punishment/torture/death?
27
Dragon Tamer: 2008-02-11
his blood on the rocks of SG. I think this blood is the blood of his people, the Aiel. He is supposed to break them and only a remnant of a remnant survives, so why not this prophecy showing they will fight for and die for Rand.
