ut the question is, what does he mean by Aes Sedai?
by Aelfinn: 2004-03-08 | Not yet rated
Okay, in TEOTW, Min mentions that she sees viewings around "women like her"--Aes Sedai--and "men like him"--Warders. At first it was all simple. Aes Sedai were the only people who could channel, end of story.
But now, there's the Asha'man, Windfinders, Wise Ones, Kin, sul'dam/damane, and so on. Min says that the Asha'man were starting to pick up images as fast as the Aes Sedai. To me, that says that it's working with the Power that gives one all those images.
What about sul'dam and damane though? Couldn't she tell one just by what she saw? And all the other channellers. This needs to be clarified.
I'm willing to let it stand at that working with the Power makes Min have viewings about that person. But...there's something more.
Perrin finds out, in LoC, that wolves can sense "two-legged shes that call fire and the wind that moves the sun"--Aes Sedai. (I'm hoping that sooner or later he'll find that in himself too, but off topic.) Does that mean, All channellers? Or, All female channellers? What about, Only Aes Sedai?
If it's all channellers, then the wolves can sense ANY channeller. What about people who have the spark in them but it hasn't manifested yet? What about people who could learn to channel?
All female channellers: That doesn't quite make sense. What about the male channellers? Maybe it's just the Taint, but now that it's gone--no way. Something would be majorly wrong if the wolves could only sense FEMALE channellers.
All Aes Sedai? Possibly. What makes Aes Sedai, Aes Sedai? The Wise Ones go to Rhuidean. Windfinders and Kin--we don't know. Damane are leashed, and sul'dam hold leashed channellers. But what makes an Aes Sedai?
It's the Three Oaths. If this is right, then Cadsuane could be sensed by the wolves, but not Nynaeve.
There's more examples--mostly in the earlier books--of where Aes SEdai are mentioned as being only able to do something. Does RJ mean Aes Sedai, or all channellers, or what?
Try and figure it out.
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Tamyrlin: 2004-03-20
Concerning Min's viewings and images around Aes Sedai, I believe the increase is a factor of the future potential. In other words, if someone hasn't channeled, they have no real future potential to channel, until they do channel. Yes, some have the spark, and Min might be able to see images over them. But I think she sees so many over current Aes Sedai, because they are likely to change the world with their channeling. So, with Asha'man, as they learn to channel, the images will increase, because their potential to change the future increases. The amount of images, in my opinion, has to do more with the ability to change the future, than with the OP itself; it just so happens, the OP is a powerful factor in change. With the wolves, I think they have an ability to "sniff" the soul. They are not fooled by the outer skin. They know the shadowspawn and aes sedai; their connection to the "spirit world" may have something to do with their abilities.
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charliec: 2004-03-20
I'm with Tamyrlin... I'd thought a bit about this when I reread that bit in the book, and I assume that the wolves sense the ability to channel (possibly only the active ability, as they weren't skittish around Egwene). I suspect as well that they can sense the ability in men... they certainly had a very special perception of Rand- what did they call him? Shadowkiller I think.
Min sees more things around Aes Sedai, but also around ta'veren, and any influential characters... the more influential a character is the more images appear. It's not the ability to channel which matters here (IMO), it's just that those who can channel are often more involved with the course of events than Johnny farmboy.
In this case, Min won't be able to tell a sul'dam or damane at a glance because most of them live much more as soldiers, not doing anything special in terms of the pattern, just following orders, and despite the channeling being fairly mundane.
And Perrin's not going to be able to spot channelers... he can talk to wolves, but he's not actually a wolf, he can't talk to other wolfbrothers in the same way, and he won't exist in teh dream after death (or rather he will, but only because he'll get bound as a hero of the horn...)
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Davian93: 2004-03-20
**** I assume that the wolves sense the ability to channel (possibly only the active ability, as they weren't skittish around Egwene). ****
Ah, but Egwene was able to channel, albeit a small amount when she met the wolves. Remember, she was able to channel enough to occasionally start a fire at that point from the little Moiraine had already taught her.
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Callandor: 2004-03-20
**But now, there's the Asha'man, Windfinders, Wise Ones, Kin, sul'dam/damane, and so on. Min says that the Asha'man were starting to pick up images as fast as the Aes Sedai. To me, that says that it's working with the Power that gives one all those images.**
**Min sees more things around Aes Sedai, but also around ta'veren, and any influential characters... the more influential a character is the more images appear. It's not the ability to channel which matters here (IMO), it's just that those who can channel are often more involved with the course of events than Johnny farmboy.**
Most likely charliec, but what about the simple viewings Min has had about knowing when a person will marry? Or the Accepted that will become pregnant and go to have children and a farm? These are really not that important events anymore then a person who is going to steal.
The normal people of the world get the single images every once and a while; while channelers and ta'veren get the cascade of images. A notable exception to this is the sul'dam (not damane since Alivia has been viewed), which could be discounted really, since they do not actively channel; they are on the brink.
Also, any person within distance of a ta'veren and under their effects, would get viewings too (Darlin, Daved Hanlon, even Aes Sedai get more viewings).
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Blademaster: 2004-03-20
on a slight tangent, would wolves be able to sense a channeler who had masked their ability (ie like moggy and mesaana)?
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snakes-n-foxes: 2004-03-21
I think that Min sees reflections of the pattern...ie she may see images of a person marrying, simply because it is part of the pattern, but it also appears that the more significant the event to the pattern, the more likely she is to have a viewing, hence she sees more images around warders and Aes Sedai (the fact that she mentions warders, and also Ta'veren means its not something restricted to channellers, but rather to those with an effect on the pattern)
As for what the wolves sense in a person, I think it's two things - the ability to sense a persons spirit (as opposed to their soul), and a 'sense' or 'feel' of the pattern.
Reasoning for sensing a persons spirit - if channelling is linked to a persons soul and the wolves cannot sense someone who has the ability to channell but has not properly developed their ability to channell (ala egwene), then its not the soul they sense but rather the spirit. As for the lack of mention of men, the wolves may not have thought it relevant, for there would be very very few men they could sense, or they may have had completely different feelings about men who could channell. Further to them feeling a persons spirit, they called Perrin 'young bull' which was more a reflection of his spirit then his soul.
And for the sense or feel of the pattern, the reasoning for this is the wolves calling Rand "Shadowkiller". Rand had not done anything to warrant such a name at this stage - not anymore-so than many others, and a lot less than some. Nor was Rand particularly wanting to fight any sort of shadowspawn...so the only logical reason I can see for so naming him, is an ability to 'sense or feel' the patten.
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charliec: 2004-03-21
I agree Callandor, I didn't mean that NOLY influential people get viewings, just that they tend to get comparatively more.
A normal person might only have 2 or 3 'major' events/dramas in their lives, so there's much less for Min to see.
Actually this implication that the adventurers are in some way more important to the pattern is one of the things I dislike about WoT...
Could wolves sense masked channelers? Only way to find out is to suck it and see...
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Grady: 2004-03-21
I was thinking how you said something would be wrong if wolves could only sense female channelers and I remembered how the dogs in the Black Tower treated the Aes Sedai there, always growling and snapping at them, yet never seem put off by having male channelers all around them. While Aes Sedai seem to always be sorrounded by cats. Maybe wolves and dogs sense women channeling and cats sense men. Maybe Rand is a special case with the wolves too, they seemed awed by his presence and go to death willingly to save him yet don't seem to care one way or another about the other male channelers. Lot of maybies in there...
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Unicorn: 2004-03-21
I would think that Min has viewings of events that in someway are (road)forks in the pattern. I agree totally with charliec, that AS and warders are just much more likely to be instrumental in these forks. the power is not a direct issue
**Most likely charliec, but what about the simple viewings Min has had about knowing when a person will marry? Or the Accepted that will become pregnant and go to have children and a farm? These are really not that important events anymore then a person who is going to steal. **
I do not Agree who know it might be the grandparents to be, of Rogosh Eagleeye or the parents of the next Artur Hawkwings wife, or ultimately great-great-great to the n'th power parents of the next Dragon. Little things influence the pattern as well.
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Dorindha: 2004-03-22
I just wanted to point out that a few people have mentioned about the wolves being (or not being) skittish around Egwene. I don't see this as helpful either way, as we have no reason to believe a wolf would act differently around AS, it is just that they can sense them as easily as we can tell a man from a woman. Until recently, the ONLY thing a wolf feared was fire, so as long as an AS wasn't doing anything threatening with fire, they wouldn't mind.
AS for Min, I think it is something to do with the power that makes her see things around channellers, and warders because of the bond. Maybe the power "magnifies" their portion of the pattern or something.
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snakes-n-foxes: 2004-03-22
Dorindha, what do you mean by 'maybe the power magnifies their portion of the pattern' ?
To me, the only thing this can mean, is 'the power gives them more influence over the rest of the pattern' - in which case, it is again not truly a matter of the power, but the amount of influence, or effect that a person has over the pattern.
Have we seen anywhere Min's PoV when she see's a king or queen ? would make for an interesting comparison - but we do have Ta'veren, and they get lots of images, without having to channell the power.
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SugarBullet: 2004-03-22
Are we making too literal a connection with the channeling? My impression of this was much more that the high number of images correlated with channelers but was not caused directly by it. Sort of like this: If someone is a channeler, it is much more likely they lead a life of danger, adventure and overall potential for important readings. With the ashaman, it's not so much that they are channeling more as it is that they are much more closely tied to the tenous balance of possibilites the future can offer.
so it's the lifestyle of a channeler, not necesassarily how much they channel.
Just a thought.
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Davian93: 2004-03-22
****so it's the lifestyle of a channeler, not necesassarily how much they channel****
She also sees alot of images over Warders and other significant non channelers so being able to channel is not really important for Min to see images. Being important to the Pattern or having influence over the pattern are more important. Channelers just naturally have more influence.
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Foxwolf: 2004-03-23
I agree that it's more the lifestyle a channeler chooses than the power that let's Min see more, but if that's so than why hasn't there been a sighting of a hunter of the horn with a large amount of viewings about them.
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dragonsceptor: 2004-03-23
** I agree that it's more the lifestyle a channeler chooses than the power that let's Min see more, but if that's so than why hasn't there been a sighting of a hunter of the horn with a large amount of viewings about them.**
Because most of the horn hunters are simply adventures. How many hunters for the horn have we heard of that actually have a large impact?
1. Lord Luc, who turns out to be half of slayer. Large impact on the pattern for obvious reasons
2. Faile, part of the Saldean Royal family and married to Perrin. Again, large potential to impact the pattern.
3. Hunters who volunteered for Elayne's Bodyguard. While as a whole they may have an impact, the individuals most likely don't.
4. Random hunters we run into along the way who are mostly drinking, telling stories, and living off of people's hunger for something beyond the ordinary. Not much possiblity to have a large impact on the patter. Most are minor nobility or nobodys hoping for a better life.
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Callandor: 2004-03-23
**I agree that it's more the lifestyle a channeler chooses than the power that let's Min see more, but if that's so than why hasn't there been a sighting of a hunter of the horn with a large amount of viewings about them.**
Lifestyle is an inncorrect definition for what causes Min's Viewings. Hers are based on the person's importance to the Pattern.
Example: Rand al'Thor, farmer from the Two Rivers, does not lead a dangerous lifestyle in TEOTW, when Min views him. He does have a lot of images though. So how is this? It is because his importance to the Pattern, as the Dragon Reborn, was there, but not affecting his lifestyle.
The same goes for both Perrin and Mat.
A gleeman like Thom would not ordinarily lead a dangerous lifestyle anywhere near an Aes Sedai, yet he has a few viewings about him. Because he will become more important to future events.
Min seeing deaths and marriges as something important, like for the birth of Heroes, could be written off as that, I don't really think it meshes, but meh.
Aes Sedai have the viewings a lot because they come in contact with situations that force them to make important decisions; this is what I take it you were to refering to as "lifestyle", and I agree, just that it is incomplete.
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Arbryan: 2004-03-23
What if her viewings aren't related to the power at all? I think she is just glimpsing the future of the pattern.
Seems to me like she can see something following a major decision in a persons life (she sees the outcome but is not sure what the choice is).
The reason some people have more than others is that they have many more critical choices to make in their life. Since the pattern is woven from the threads of each person their choices shape the pattern. I think Min can glimpse the future of a thread only when a major choice has been made to weave one way vs. another.
In otherwords the an everyday person would have a thread that looks like a straight line through the pattern, but a Warder/AS has a thread that is all over the place - based upon the things they do all stemming from decisions they make. Then you look at the 3 Taveren and not only do their threads move all over but they affect others around them.
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charliec: 2004-03-24
**What if her viewings aren't related to the power at all? I think she is just glimpsing the future of the pattern. **
I'm with you Arbryan, although Dorindha's **Maybe the power "magnifies" their portion of the pattern or something.** is kind of plausible- the connection to the power could just make that person's part in teh pattern more visible, a little like a lens.
All the same, I think there are too many counter-examples of visions common around non-channelers (lots of hihg lords and ladies for example) to back the idea up.
As for the cat/dog thing... I think it's just a reflection of the way men tend to prefer dogs, and women cats (although I go against the flow there...).
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nick: 2004-03-25
At the end of Fires of Heaven after Elayne and Nynaeve have gone to Salidar Elayne and Min are having a conversation."Those three you brought with you are trouble and that is a viewing"..."You mean Marigan amd Nicola and Areina?How can they be trouble?"..."I dont know exactly.I only caught glimpses of aura,and just out of the corner of my eye.Never when I was looking right at them,where I might have made something out...".We find out later that Marigan is Moghedien who is masking her ability to channel and although we dont get a POV from Min seeing her again surely one of the forsaken would have many images around her.I think that Moghedien masking her ability to channel also masks Mins ability to read the pattern.
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Dorindha: 2004-03-25
charliec is right in explaining what I meant - that the fact they are channellers just makes their thread easier for Min to see. Min herself has said that apart from channellers (and warders), there are only a few people who she constantly sees images around, and these are Mat, Perrin and odd other ones, including Birgitte, although I can't think of anyone else - maybe Thom?
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Frenzy: 2004-03-31
Here's an easy answer to why being able to channel affects Min's abilities. Min views the Pattern. The Pattern is woven by the Wheel of Time. The True Souce drives the Wheel of Time. Channelers have special access to the True Source. It's a proximity thing. Which might explain why non-channeling Warders have so many images around them despite their lack of proximity to what drives the Pattern.
But whatever it is, keep in mind that Min's abilities are a plot device Mr. Jordan uses for foreshadowing and plot movement purposes. So she'll see auras around anyone she needs to see them around to make the plot point.
Perhaps wolves can sense channeling for the same reason. They live both in the waking world and in Tel'aran'rhiod. We know Tel'aran'rhiod is the third constant, and like the Force surrounds and encompasses everything. Looking at things from that different angle could provide insight not normally available. Besides, wolves have better senses that humans do anyway.
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Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-04
Min's ability has to be linked with people's influence or connection with the pattern.
The reason ALL Aes Sedai and warders have images would be because, the split in the WT was pretty significant, and the last battle on it's way. Anyone she has an image about is obviously changing the pattern somehow. That's why she only see's weak images around normal people, and around ta'veren and Aes Sedai there is more.
As for the wolves, they sense the pattern, not the one power, because honestly, the can sense trollocs, and do trollocs channel? Do Myydraal channel? It is an ability that is linked with the pattern.
Just my two cents.
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charliec: 2004-04-05
Brendan Reborn- Aes Sedai and Warders can 'sense' Trollocs because of the Aes Sedai's ability to channel. Wolves smell them... this is seperate to their dreamworld abilities, even a sharp human nose can pick up trollocs.
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Anubis: 2004-04-06
wolves cats and dogs can sense women who can channel. i believe cadsuane mentions about the cats and dogs saying that dogs seemed to think women who could channel were large cats. it is possible that because animals exist the same in TAR (im not even trying to spell that any more) this gives them the ability to sense some things that humans (who dont exist in TAR at the same time) of course this is speculation but it makes sense.
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silverwolf: 2004-04-12
I agree with Anubis-dogs/wolves and cats can sense any channelers. In WH, Tarna is attacked by a pack of dogs while watching Elayne ride through the Black Tower. One of the women that helps drive off the dogs mentions that cats won't abide the men. In TPoD, Cadsuane mentions that cats seem to be able to sense women who can channel (and seem to like them), and dogs seem to think that women who can channel are large cats. As for why, I just attributed it to a flavor thing Robert Jordan threw in to highlight how differences between men and women can be paralleled.
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charliec: 2004-04-13
Apology- I said near the beginning of this thread that Perrin can't talk to other wolfbrothers in the same way he talks to wolves, but in the 3rd book, in Jarra, he does get a set of images from Noam. Maybe it was because Noam had become more man than wolf, or maybe he's just never tried talking to Elyas in this way...
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Callandor: 2004-04-13
**Apology- I said near the beginning of this thread that Perrin can't talk to other wolfbrothers in the same way he talks to wolves, but in the 3rd book, in Jarra, he does get a set of images from Noam. Maybe it was because Noam had become more man than wolf, or maybe he's just never tried talking to Elyas in this way...**
They can't; it was most likely because the guy had gone wolf.
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 5 - The Forging of a Hammer
Perrin woke abruptly in the deep darkness before dawn, beneath one of the high-wheeled supply carts. Cold had seeped into his bones from the ground despite his heavy fur-lined cloak and two blankets, and there was a fitful breeze, not strong or steady enough to be called a light wind, but icy. When he scrubbed at his face with gauntleted hands, frost crackled in his short beard. At least it seemed not to have snowed any more during the night. Too often he had awakened covered with a dusting despite the shelter of a cart, and snowfall made things difficult for the scouts. *He wished he could speak with Elyas the same way he talked with wolves.* Then he would not have to endure this endless waiting. Weariness clung to him like a second skin; he could not recall when he had last had a sound night's sleep. Sleep, or the lack of it, seemed unimportant anyway. These days, only the heat of anger gave him the strength to keep moving.**
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talera: 2004-06-16
*The more significant the event to the pattern, the more likely she is to have a viewing*
I think this is the key. Min sees so many more images around AS because they tend to be involved in events that influence the pattern more often than the average person. And then you have to consider their extended life span, which offers even more possibilities to be involved in "significant events".
For this reason, suldam and damane are less likely to have as many images; they simply obey orders. It would be far more likely that the person giving the orders would have an image than the suldam and damane. Alivia's viewing was done after she was freed, and had more potential to influence events.
*Animals exist the same in TAR*
Actually cats and dogs don't exist in TAR at all; only wild animals do.
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Dragon Tamer: 2008-01-24
What I assumed was that RJ was referring to something mentioned through many of the books. Cats love female channellers while dogs hate them. Dogs love male channellers while cats hate them. I think that it is a thing like the itch a fade feels from anyone chanelling, but tuned so that the itch is irritating for one and pleasing for another.
