1
Tamyrlin: 2004-06-13
I don't know. I am a cynic, and I don't see how you can rationalize the overthrow of a government half way across the world, just because Mat learns how to create firearms. I mean, Rand destroyed the Seanchan army twice, with stronger one power weapons than guns, and they kept coming. I don't believe his discovery would change their kingdom. In fact, they would probably just start arming their warriors, and keep their damane. And, I am of the belief that the Seanchan leaderships knows that sul'dam can channel, but convincing the populace that such is the case will be much harder, especially when they reside half way around the world. If Mat has any affect on the Seanchan, in my opinion, it will be localized. He will marry Tuon, and he will be forced to choose sides, or he will convince part of the Seanchan army to make peace with Rand, but I doubt Tuon will give us damane any time soon, and neither will her mother. The Damane and Sul'dam issue is so embedded in their culture, it won't end within the timeline of the books.
2
charliec: 2004-06-13
I agree that Mat will likely have a major effect on Seanchan society, and also defeat their armies with cannons and all that, but I don't think this is the fulfillment of the prophecy.
Mat giving up half the light of the world seems more like the result of a tough choice of his to me... I think he will have to choose to defend one thing or the other, or perhaps gamble/bargain in some way. Whatever, I think this prophecy refers to something Mat does against the Shadow, not against the Seanchan.
3
mako0424: 2004-06-13
i strongly agree with everything Tamyrlin said, until the point where you said it is so embedded in their culture we wont see the end of it in this timeline of the books.
I think you're wrong only because we have seen so much of the Seanchan and their way of life including the damane and sul'dam. Now i don't think you're wright that the officials would know sul'dam could channel. It doesn't make sense because no sul'dam we have seen so far had prior knowledge of themselves channeling, and were hard on accepting this idea even when they were forced to see weaves and what not. how would Senchan officials have figured this out, and still managed to keep it from the entire populace and the other sul'dam. i dont think it is possible.
It is my belief that yes, Mat will create firearms, and use them in battle, but i dont think it will be against the Seanchan, Mat and Tuon's marriage is a major factor in the unification of the world post-Tarmon Gaidon, why would he use these firearms on them one minute and unite them the next.
And also, with Egwene and many Aes' SEdai hacving become damane one point in life, and with Egwene's future plans of untiing every channeler in the world, it is my belief Egwene will use Mat and Tuon's place of power to form an Abraham Lincoln role and free all of the slaves, and bring both sul'dam and damane to deal with these revelations, and train them. Also i think the discovery of firearms will save the foundation of the Seanchan becoz they were built upon this foundation of channeling as a weapon. But with one new discovery comes another one to balance.
4
Tamyrlin: 2004-06-13
Mako - The Seanchan empire, as in those who lead it, depend on the "sanctity" of the idea that Sul'dam can't channel but they control damane, in order to stay in power. Their power is the One Power, controlled. If that knowledge became common, it would send the society into chaos. Who controls sul'dam, if they can also channel? Do you leash them too? But, surely, the Empress knows and has known, for centuries, hiding it from the public in order to keep the power with the Royal family. I thought there was a "wiff" of this idea in the last book, and in previous sections with the Seanchan. I will see what I can do about finding a quote to support my suggestion that the Empress knows sul'dam can channel. I found a quote that addresses my suggestion that the culture won't change within the timeline of the remaining books (which I give to be, at the most, one year).
TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 8 - The Sea Folk and Kin
"They all weep if they are made to look at weaves very long, Elayne," she said wearily. And a touch sadly. "But once the weaves are gone, they convince themselves we tricked them. They have to, you understand. Else they'd be damane, not sul'dam. No, it will take time to convince the Mistress of the Hounds that she is really a hound herself. I am afraid I really haven't given you any good news at all, have I?"
You can't change a culture that won't even believe what it sees to be the truth. Tricks of the Aes Sedai witches, that's all it would be to a Seanchan.
5
Callandor: 2004-06-13
It's in the BWB.
**BWB: Page 158
CHAPTER 17: Seanchan
The second thing that enabled Luthair Paendrag to conquer such a vast land, and one with so many unruly Aes Sedai, was the discovery of the a'dam, which enabled him to force captured Aes Sedai to serve him, and later the discovery of sul'dam, which meant that he no longer needed Aes Sedai allies at all. There is no doubt that the current power of the Imperial family over an entire continent is directly linked to their subjugation and control of all Seanchan Aes Sedai. It is fairly certain in the beginning Luthair knew that sul'dam were women who could be trained to use the One Power, but with his antipathy toward Aes Sedai this information was likely suppressed. Certainly it was lost within a hundred years.**
6
Brendan Reborn: 2004-06-13
Mat will definately create firearms. But the quote "The Battle over, but the world not done with battle, balance teeters on the edge..." whatever it says, it implies that the seanchan will still be a main problem in Randland, so I doubt that the seanchan will release the damane.
To give up half the light of the world, to save the world, to me, sounds like he is having to make a choice between either the seanchan and the DOTNM, or Rand. Could this be how mat betrays Rand, as so many are thinking? (I'm not one of them)
Also, has anyone ever thought of the correlation between the school in cammy, where they invented the automobile(or some motorized device) and the cannons? Tanks maybe? Maybe the last battle is not going to be fought how we think, but with guns and tanks and such. Makes sense to me, and it goes along with the idea that RJ is describing our world in a past time. He's making Randland evovle, until it eventually ends up where we are.
7
a dragonburned fool: 2004-06-14
Do I understand You right, Anubis (as everybody else seems to understand You in sense Mat will use firearms against Seanchan), that Mat will use firearms in favor of Seanchan? If so, I like that idea. Seanchan would more easily accept the usage of firearms then most of Rand's allies. And Seanchan could produce and organize firearms enough to have effect faster then the others.
Now, when the heir of the Empire knows she could channel, and some Seanchan do not think that the damane-institution is absolutely necessary (as Egeanin), they really need something to make damane usage in the army look (at least look) not so extraordinally unreplaceable. It even is not needed to be good replacement, it only need to look a replacement for the damane institution to can be obsoleted.
8
Dorindha: 2004-06-14
I agree with Tam and charliec - while I think you're right about Mat's creation of firearms, I think the "giving up half the light of the world..." is something more personal, whether it is half the light of THE world, or HIS world.
9
Anubis: 2004-06-15
oh man... the basic idea is that the seanchan will be willing... essentially, to trade the damane for guns. it saves the channelers for now... but now you have a super huge, well armed, approaching modern army to deal with.
i would imagine that matt might use the cannons ON the seanchan first, proving their effectivness...
10
Anubis: 2004-06-15
oh, and think about the result of the seanchan learning that sul'dam can channel. Either mass panic, and if theres a bunch of magical pissed off women running around uncollared... i want a gun. or acceptance, in which case there goes the bulk of my power and i want a gun.
11
a dragonburned fool: 2004-06-15
The issue with Mat using guns on Seanchan first is, that he must produce great amount of cannons first, amount great enough to have an effect on the Seanchan army, and such amount requires powerful industry and good organization.
However it could be used on Seanchan first if the war is Seanchan (faithful to Tuon) against Seanchan (faithful to the fake DotNM of Suroth), as I believe that such war will occur.
And exactly for Seanchan to use guns as acceptable prize for give up the damane, it's an idea I'm totally with it.
12
Daekyras: 2004-06-15
Half the light of the world could mean a dozen things- he loses an eye, he must leave Tuon, he must chose between olver and someone else, he creates cannon etc.
However, just in connection with this theory, it could mean that he leaves this side of the world to go to seanchan and save them from themselves. Half the light of the world to save the world...
13
Brendan Reborn: 2004-06-16
No one has put any thought in to something I posted previously. The center in camelyn where they made some type of motorized vehicle. Cross that with cannons. It's a tank! Just a thought.
14
Davian93: 2004-06-16
****No one has put any thought in to something I posted previously. The center in camelyn where they made some type of motorized vehicle. Cross that with cannons. It's a tank! Just a thought. ****
First, it was in Cairhien and it was a primitive motorized steam-engine cart probably equivalent to an early 1800's steam engine. It went may a 100 yds before it stopped. I would say they are still a long ways away from a dependable working model, let alone a weapon for combat.
15
charliec: 2004-06-16
Yeah Brendan, I've been quietly wondering when that'll come back, but I'm reasonably sure that it's just a foreshadowing of a possible industrial age to come, not something that'll actually come to fruition in the span of the books...
16
Cold: 2004-06-22
This is incorrect. Mat is a parallel of the norse god Odin; this was stated by Jordan. Losing half the light of the world is an allusion to the norse tale of "Odin's Eye."
["Odin's Eye" is about birth, life, death and rebirth. Odin has created the world and tries to organize it by ousting the Giants. But, when his son Balder has terrible dreams, Odin begins to think that maybe he has created the wrong kind of world. He dives into Mimer's Well to learn the truth. The Giant Loke appears in the water and speaks to Odin: "I am you. I am all your thoughts". And, in a way, one could say that Odin has become wiser. But then also, he realizes that he has lost an eye in exchange for the knowledge he has acquired.]
17
Anubis: 2004-06-23
perhaps matt creates firearms, unleashes them upon the world and then has a similar conflict...
18
Zader: 2004-06-23
I believe Mat married Tuon the 3rd time he stated the dotnm was his wife. She had already stated he was her husband in the prior year and one day before him. Also Tuon has the male adam with which she will use on the DR. Not being aware of the failings of the adam she will take Rand back to kneel to the crystal throne. By the time they get back to Seanchan Rand will be in control.
19
oberon: 2004-06-23
I believe that giving up half the light of the world is simply a peace treaty between the Seanchan and Matt. He knows that they have come back across the ocean to take back what they believe is rightfully theirs, so he gives them half of the land. In doing this the Seanchan become a powerfull ally against the Dark One.
20
LordMaxx: 2004-06-24
Some prophecy or dream says that Rand will bind the crystal throne to him.
Now whether that is Mats purpose by marrying the DoTNM or whether his emmisaries will somehow accomplish this. Since Rand is sending logain, and they have the special male adam where he is going...
Anyway I dont think its going to be a conquering, somehow the seanchan are just going to be scooped up either through Mat or some other thing that Rand does much like the Aiel were scooped up. Then the ever victorious Army can help him at tarmon gaidon.
21
Aelfinn: 2004-07-03
Dorindha:
**while I think you're right about Mat's creation of firearms, I think the "giving up half the light of the world..." is something more personal, whether it is half the light of THE world, or HIS world.**
It's half the light of HIS world.
22
GuileandPerseverance: 2004-07-05
Please pardon me for breaking into your conversation: Just have a few ideas to share...
I think that Mat is a direct metaphor of Woden, the All father of Norse literature, and that his fate will largely mirror Woden's own ascent (or descent) unto the frozen wastes of the rAgnarok...
1. Woden's (Odin's) has two familiars: Two raven in fact, who go about the world and relay what they learn unto the ears of the Norse god himself...and if my memory serves me right (which it sometimes fails to do!!!) He is also associated with an Eagle . Both totems are connected with Mat, although I think than Mat's totem is the fox, reflecting the Japanese and Norse assertion of the fox as the Trickster. Mat is also supposed to be the son of battles, while Odin was supposed to be the kind of the warrior gods.
2. Mat losing half the light of the world probably means he will lose one of his eyes. The left one, I think. I don't know if he will just lose it in the more natural manner (getting wounded, etc.) or perhaps something of the power will do the job. It's also quite possible that he'll get another sort of eye (instead of the boring but more likely empty old socket)- one probably with it's own unique powers.
I think there's a reference to this in Book three or four from one of Egwene's Dreams...
in the legend, Woden gave up an eye for nearly limitless knowledge. Will Mat give up an eye for the knowledge of how to make proper firearms?!?
I have it in my mind that the thing might happen when Mat takes a hand to save Rand from the Seanchan when he gets captured by the latter. I think this is something that Mat will have to do --- because he's basically the best one to deal with the effects of the binding chair aka the Seachan's Empress' throne in Seandar being immune to effects of the One Power. It really wouldn't really be that much of a surprise if (like the Ayyad across the waste) the Seanchan Empress is a channeler also. And that this at least one of the reasons why Tuon is favored by the Empress. This would be a secret enough to shatter the Seanchan although I'll have to agree with all of you in that the main reason the pattern allowed them to exist is because they will probably be the major force that'll order - organize -the side of the LIght just prior to Tarmon Gaidon. I mean, I absolutely abhor the order the Seanchan society imposes on the rest of Randland, but hey --- omproved peace and order situation, and less starving people in Tanchico, etc. (at least enough for soldiers to transfer their loyalty to the invaders!) and the only people really suffering are the nobles who are the major mess-makers anyway...
3. third point: Woden is also held distinct by his coiffure --- I read it somewhere that he is traditionally depicted wearing a black-wide-rimmed hat...
though the spear -ashandarei - that Mat carries is probably more like a Japanese naginata spear than anything else, I believe...
(proly won't be able to check on this site all that regularly - so pardon me people, If my reply to any inquery sent might be a few days delayed...
I wonder what the Imperial Gardeners and the Ogier from the mainland would say to each other if they ever got the chance to meet each other?!? The Gardeners are probably throwback Ogier who've thrown off the Longing... much like Loial>!>
imagine a shootout with balefire. imagine if both touched their opponent with balefire at exactly the same time...
balefire!
23
matoyak: 2004-08-11
what do you mean?
the gardeners are probably throwback ogeir that threw off the longing....like loial
imagine a shootout with balefire imagine both touch the opponent at the exact same time?
balefire!
WTF do you mean!? *raises eyebrow*
24
Anubis: 2004-08-11
thank you GP very informitive.
i agree about the gardeners, they probably are throwback ogier.
about the balefire, both die, balefire exists outside of paradox
so going by your info i would say that mat loses his eye to gain wisdom. the question is whose wisdom... maybe the seanchan will give up dammae, or maybe he will learn somthing important...
25
Tamin: 2004-08-12
It seems to me that Loial has NOT thrown off the longing.
26
Aan-allein: 2005-06-07
Have you ever considered that maybe Mat shoots himself in the eye while inventing the first gun?
That would be giving up half the light of the world to save the world...from a certain point of view.
27
Narianna: 2005-06-08
yes it will be :from a certain pov.
but its kinda tame ,no.
anyway the finn said that "he will give up half the light of the world to save the world".
IMO it seems that mat will make a conscoius decision to give up his eye.
