1
Tamyrlin: 2004-09-23
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
I've long used Min's first viewing to demonstrate that her ability to read the Pattern isn't limited to reading future events. What she sees around Lan and the boys could be interpreted to include identifying attributes. Mat's laughing face, Lan's ruined towers and baby with a sword, etc. Lan is less than he could be, and at that point of the story so are all the boys. So identifying attributes aren't beyond the realm of possibility.
Especially since, with Lan and Thom, the events of the past shape their futures.
2
ilgross: 2004-09-23
Someone asked RJ that question, and he said that ALL her viewings pertain to the future.
Although I agree that it would make much more sense if they did pertain to the past.
3
Callandor: 2004-09-23
**The baby in the cradle with the sword, wouldn't that be in the future though, perhaps indicating Lan is going to have a child, and not as the explanation says, that it is Lan as a baby**
As Frenzy put it, it's most likely that she can read attributes as well as the future. Along with Mat's laughing face, Perrin's wolf, Lan's baby and Towers, Thom's fire, we have:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 2 - The Butcher's Yard
"Some can do things others cannot," Nandera said, as if that was enough explanation. Min laughed again and reached out to touch the Maiden's knee. "Thank you." Settling her feet beneath her, she looked up at Rand. Now that she was laughing again, she seemed radiant. That held even after she became serious. Serious, and not very pleased. "As for your question, nothing of any use. *Taim has blood in his past and blood in his future, but you could guess that.* He's a dangerous man. They seem to be gathering images like Aes Sedai." A sidelong look through lowered eyelashes at Dashiva and the other Asha'man said who she meant. Most people had few images around them, but Min said Aes Sedai and Warders always did. "The problem is, what I can see is all blurry. I think it's because they're holding the Power. That often seems true with Aes Sedai, and it's worse when they're actually channeling. Kiruna and that lot have all sorts of things around them, but they stay so close together that it all... well... jumbles together most of the time. It's even muddier with the prisoners."**
How did Min know about Taim's past? Another more subjective one:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 35 - Into the Woods
Min could only shake her head. *How to explain what she did know about Hanlon now, that his hands would be red with more rapes and murders before he died?* If she had known when or who.... But all she knew was that he would. Anyway, telling about a viewing never changed it; what she saw happened, no matter who she warned. Sometimes, before she had learned better, it had happened because she warned.**
The "more" means that Min either:
1. Knew Daved Hanlon was a murderer and rapist before meeting him (Nope).
2. She saw that he had done that before and will in the future.
If it had been the first time he raped or murdered, there isn't a need for the more.
4
amazinglarry: 2004-09-23
This could also be one of the things that RJ decided to change as the books went along. Her early viewings like this one contain elements from characters' pasts but later RJ decided that her ability made more sense if it only predicted future events. I think this is a more reasonable explanation than, say, that the Lan viewing means he is going to re-establish Malkier and become its king. There are other examples of things like this in Eye of the World, also, for example the method of "traveling" Rand uses at Tarwin's Gap. A lot of people have had trouble trying to rationalize that scene, but to me it just seems like an instance of RJ introducing a concept that he decided to give more well-defined rules to later in the series.
5
Tanis: 2004-09-24
A thought occurs that's not entirely unrelated to this post, and apologies if this is something that has been spoken about before.
Is Thom Elayne's father? The timing appears right, and there are numerous references (I don't have the books with me at work for direct quotes) to Thom treating Elayne as an uncle might. I don't think we know enough about Thom's past to be sure but some indications appear to be there
6
Anubis: 2004-09-24
ive always wondered. i suppose it is entirely possible but without genetic testing we will never really know. unless RJ decides to tell us.... and when does he ever make it that easy?
7
Jumai: 2004-09-24
Thom says he isn't, so does Morgase.
Elayne would be Rand's step-sister if he wasn't though. Since there's no actual blood between them and they weren't raised as siblings that's *technically* fine.
8
Dorindha: 2004-09-24
In view of the RJ quote, I've tended to explain the discrepancy by reasoning that she sees elements that make up facets of a person's personality, as well as what's in their future. Owyn was a huge influence on Thom's actions, as the death of Malkier is on Lan's. Thus, she can also tell things about their present - Hanlon *is* a rapist/murderer. I don't believe it 100%, but unless these things do come to pass, it's the best I can do.
9
amazinglarry: 2004-09-24
RJ has said in an interview that Thom is not Elayne's father:
Q: Is Thom Elayne and Gawyn's real father?
A: No. Absolutely no. No question about it. No. No. No. Thom is exactly who he says he is.
10
Callandor: 2004-09-24
**This could also be one of the things that RJ decided to change as the books went along. Her early viewings like this one contain elements from characters' pasts but later RJ decided that her ability made more sense if it only predicted future events.**
As I said, there are events in later books that are similar to early viewings.
**There are other examples of things like this in Eye of the World, also, for example the method of "traveling" Rand uses at Tarwin's Gap. A lot of people have had trouble trying to rationalize that scene, but to me it just seems like an instance of RJ introducing a concept that he decided to give more well-defined rules to later in the series.**
The traveling scene isn't so changed. Rand Skimmed to Ishamael, and he got to Tarwin's Gap by Need. Everybody thinks it's weird because no gateway is mentioned, just the stairs, however, you have to remember, it's one of the first times Rand channels, he's still new to it, and he had his eyes closed when it appeared ;).
11
Callandor: 2004-09-24
**Is Thom Elayne's father?**
No, not in a million years, absolutely not.
1. BWB:
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: National Stability - Andor
Morgase Trakand, By the Grace of the Light, Queen of Andor, Defender of the Realm, Protector of the People, High Seat of House Trakand, became ruler of Andor only after a long and bitter struggle. The Daughter-Heir, Tigraine, had disappeared under mysterious circumstances and was declared dead. Queen Mordrellen had died of grief with no available heirs, leaving a void which led to the Third Andoran War for Succession. Morgase eventually convinced the strongest Houses of Andor to support her claim as cousin and nearest blood relation to Tigraine. To solidify her position, Morgase went so far as to marry the former Daughter-Heir's widow, Taringail Damodred of Cairhien, despite the fact that he was well known to have been a bad husband to Tigraine. *Morgase bore two children by Taringail, the Daughter-Heir Elayne, and the First Prince of the Sword, Gawyn, and adopted his and Tigraine's son Galadedrid.***
2. Glossary:
**Damodred, Prince Taringail: "A Royal Prince of Cairhien, he married Tigraine and fathered Galadedrid. *When Tigraine disappeared and was declared dead, he married Morgase and fathered Elayne and Gawyn*."**
3. Books:
**TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 17 - Deceptions
Her smile was just short of laughter, but she spoke as if reading from a page. "Thomdril Merrilin. Called the Gray Fox, once, by some who knew him, or knew of him. Court-bard at the Royal Palace of Andor in Caemlyn. *Morgase's lover for a time, ~after~ Taringail died.* Fortunate for Morgase, Taringail's death. I do not suppose she ever learned he meant her to die and himself to be Andor's first king. But we were speaking of Thom Merrilin, a man who, it was said, could play the Game of Houses in his sleep. It is a shame that such a man calls himself a simple gleeman. But such arrogance to keep the same name."**
4. RJ:
post-ACOS signing [Dunwoody, GA, 9 October, 1996], "Thom is exactly who he says he is."
Meaning: A gleeman who used to be a court bard. Thom never so much as implies, hints, or suggests he was Elayne's father.
Plus, added into it, Cairhien people think that Elayne as Queen might be a good thing. If Morgase had an affair with Thom, and Elayne is their bastard child, she has no claim at all to the Cairhien throne. Yet, she does.
12
charliec: 2004-09-25
Seeing elements of people's characters can pertain to the future... Lan will always be the lord of the towers, and the baby who had a sword placed in its hands, and that dictates the way that he will act in the future (such as the way he tried to avoid Nynaeve...). Similar arguments can be made for other characters- Thom is preoccupied with his nephew's death even now, hence Moiraine's success in manipulating him in Tear (assuming that the fire juggler is his nephew).
13
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-09-29
Sometimes Min knows the meaning of a viewing as well as the image. So she could have seen Thom's nephew juggling balls of Fire, and KNOWN that meant Thom would help Rand. But she only saw, she didn't know.
The image can be one of the past, but it's meaning can still represent something that will happen in the future.
14
DCIMorse: 2004-10-01
"Jordan goofed" might seem like the simplest explanation here, but that's only because we don't have all the facts (i.e. we don't know what happens in the last two books).
It's possible that the FAQ is wrong and the Sword Wielding Baby is actually Lan's son (does any Jordan quote contradict this?); and it's possible that the fire-juggler is someone other than Owyn, though I'm at loss as to who it would be. The only other "fire jugglers" who come to mind are Rand (channeling) and Mat (Egwene's dream of him grabbing fireworks), and I'm not sure why that would be especially important to Thom, except in the general sense that Thom has travelled extensively with both of them.
15
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-06
It seems that Min's viewings are a reading of the pattern like the Finns' if this is the case, she would not only see thier futures, but also major parts of their pasts. This is also why she could see that Elayne's guard has blood in his past and in his future. The viewings could also probably show a dedicated DF because they would have some shadow of the DO about them. Has Min ever seen Lanfear?
16
Stilicho: 2005-04-06
Yep. At Falme, right after the battle. Lanfear tells Min to take care of Rand until she comes back for him.
17
red hand: 2005-04-06
min saw lanfear at the end of eye of the world. she did not "see" anything at that time. as a side note, in early part of the dragon reborn when they are camping in the mountains, there is a discussion about the forsaken being sealed in the bore and there is no mention from min that she has met lanfear.
18
Callandor: 2005-04-06
**It seems that Min's viewings are a reading of the pattern like the Finns' if this is the case, she would not only see thier futures, but also major parts of their pasts.**
RJ has stated that Min's viewings are not like the Aelfinn. He answered this in the first question of the new series of them that he is being asked at the Tor website.
**as a side note, in early part of the dragon reborn when they are camping in the mountains, there is a discussion about the forsaken being sealed in the bore and there is no mention from min that she has met lanfear.**
I'd think it was that way because Min was not present for the discussion, however I have not read that section in a while to be for sure on such a specification.
19
red hand: 2005-04-06
i happen to be rereading the series (#5) to get ready for the new book.
she was at the "round table" that was taking place. perrin was standing up to moraine for the first time and demanding some answers.
20
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-04-07
Ilgross says that Jordan said everything Mins views (pertains) to the future"
For something to pertain to the future, it doesn't require that it be in the future.
For example, I could have set a timer on the nuclear bomb yesterday, set to go off tomorrow...my action in the past pertains to (an event yet to happen) a future event.
Same with everything that's been quoted in Mins viewings (if not quite so clearly)...things happened in the past to shape people, that will in turn shape the future.
21
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-07
Did Min see any viewings around Lanfear when she was with Rand in TGH? If not, then that means there must be a way to block the viewings because a channeler like Lanfear should be surrounded by them.
22
JamieK: 2005-10-10
a side note concerning min's first viewing of elayne - "she would be a queen" - if we know this, why has RJ kept this plot line going on for SO long. we know she'll become queen, so why the chapters with nothing more interesting than, "she had tea with this high seat" etc. who cares, we know she'll win!
23
JakOShadows: 2005-10-10
JamieK: Good point. I think there are things that dragged too long besides Elayne's plot line though. Like the siege of Tar Valon. The aes sedai talked amoungst themselves, then tried to do some negotiating, and then finally the cuendillar thing at the end of CoT. And they took forever trying to decide what to do next too. I think what Egwene should have done, is taken a vote to give her complete command over the armies actions without repurcussions from the sitters(which she should have anyways but doesn't). The hall and sitters just drag everyone down when it comes to decision making.
24
Callandor: 2005-10-10
** I think what Egwene should have done, is taken a vote to give her complete command over the armies actions without repurcussions from the sitters(which she should have anyways but doesn't).**
Egwene does have that. She commands the Aes Sedai in all matters concerning the war, and Bryne is a full supporter of her.
The problem is that they don't want to come to open fighting too much, if at all.
25
JamieK: 2005-10-10
i think thats the point though. RJ's said that the Light is 'on the ropes' and struggling exactly because of that sort of thing. i think that the Aes Sedai dithering so much is a valid point, it keeps the Light from becoming too strong. and to link this to the topic, it all pertains to min's viewings of the light being eaten by the shadow. i think with Min's viewings Rj should spend less time going on about facts (e.g elayne being queen) and spend more time elaborating on the unconnected viewings, such as the 'oddness' to aviendha's babies.
26
Lugh of the Vanth: 2006-11-16
Min's early viewings, that seem to reflect the past as opposed to the future, seem to be events that have not been revealed yet to others. Lan's towers and the child in the cradle are reflective of his past, and his titles., This is his secret, and one that comes into play later with Nynaeve. Thom's fire-juggling nephew is still his secret at this point, but it comes out later and has much to do with why he chooses to join Rand and the rest. Taim was known to have blood on his hands. He was a false dragon, and led a devestating war in Saldea. He killed men who went mad with the power at the black tower. Daved Hanlon was not a known rapist and murderer, yet this is more information that relates to the future, and his connection to Elayne.
