A Remnant of a Remnant..."
by Jiana: 2005-05-03 | 4.26 out of 10 (19 votes)
This theory, like the only lonely other one I've posted, will probably fall to pieces upon scrutiny, but I am really interested to know what the rest of you, especially the WoT gurus, think of this, regarding the prophecy from the Karatheon Cycle that refers to the Aiel. (Besides, I figured if I had been raised, I might as well post a theory and try to prove my worth :) )
I have been thinking about the "remnant of a remnant" that will be left of the Aiel after the Last Battle. It is my opinion that all of the Aiel will participate in the LB, and that most will be killed by the opposing force. But keep in mind the ones that have suffered from the "bleakness" and gone to the Tuatha'an.
The Tinkers (who have previously been referred to as a *remnant* from an earlier Age) will probably try to stay as far away from the battle as possible, unless Aram convinces them otherwise, which I doubt. What happens to them I honestly haven't thought about.
The Shaido, now... Bear with me, please, because I hadn't considered the Shaido until after I began (bad planning, I know say sorry). A confrontation with the bulk of the Shaido is eminent, and I believe that most will be killed. Those who remain I believe would either try to join with their warrior societies in other clans, or off themselves from shame. That takes care of the Shaido.
However, after the LB is done, the relative few Aiel that are left, and however many Tinkers are left (along with the other Aiel who recently joined them--and if this proves to be true it was great and sneaky planning on RJ's part), will embrace one another as a sort of family, as both peoples have the same bloodlines. This will somewhat change the attitudes of both peoples toward violence. Perhaps the Tuatha'an will decide that violence for a cause is acceptable... Perhaps the Aiel will decide that constant fueding is no way to live... I think both things will happen, and this would be the remnant of a remnant mentioned in the prophecies. In other words, a people who are generally peace-loving, but if someone ticks them off, said someone needs to be prepared for the thorough a**-kicking they will invariably get.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-05-11
I don't know how much we will see of the remnant of the remnant. In other words, I don't think Jordan is going to go there with the series. We will probably see some of the killing occur, in the sense that we will begin to understand how only a few will survive. However, Jordan says that war will continue, after the LB, which I think will include the Aiel/Tinkers/Shaido, etc.
2
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-05-11
Ooh, I like this theory! Especially with the shaido getting assimilated into the main Aiel after a battle, and joining with the Tinkers. I have to say, however, that I think that instead of joining with the Tuath'an, thay will instead form a separate but similar group, who are, as you said. **a people who are generally peace-loving, but if someone ticks them off, said someone needs to be prepared for the thorough a**-kicking they will invariably get**.
The reason I believe they will not join with the tinkers is the fact that not only have they despised them for a few thousand years, but the bloodline of the Tinkers is no longer even close to being mostly Aiel; remember they have been adopting people ever since they split from the main Aiel.
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MatCauthon: 2005-05-11
I think the Aiel are a remnant already. They come from from the people that split off from the Tuatha'an because they couldn't follow The Way of the Leaf anymore.
So I think that "A remnant of a remnant" are the ones that follow Rand.
Since I believe that the Aiel are a remnant, then when Rand broke them he created the second remnant. They lost a whole clan in the Shaido, plus all the others that couldn't follow Rand and joined the Shaido, as well as the people that couldn't handle knowing that they used to be Tuatha'an and felt the bleakness. I don't remember if it gives an estimation of how many of the total Aiel stayed with Rand but I think its probably 1/2 or less.
I'm not sure if I explained my thoughts well above so I'll just sum it up like this: I think we already see the "remnant of a remnant" and that its the Aiel that stayed with Rand. The Shaido will get wiped out. There will be loses in the LB, of course, but I don't think more to Aiel than any other group of people.
4
ssjx7squall: 2005-05-11
well i kinda agree but the cycle says a lil different. According to Moraine in the dragon reborn says that "he shall slay his people with the sword of peace and destroy them with the leaf."Shrug just a thought saw this on my second reading of the series today its on page97. Frankly from that right there i dont think it will be a literal death. Or even a violent one. I beleive by the end of the series the Aiel will become a peaceful race but losing all their warrior heritage, thus losing their past after they changed from the traveling people. Rand will "kill them" with peace. He will change them to the way of the leaf. We know that the Aeil already consider the traveling people lost ones and think of their lives as worse than death. So i beleive the destruction of the aeil will be the peace that may come sooner or later in the series. So he will kill them with the sword of peace, meaning either like later in the series where he kills off the Aeil who break the law with violence, or he just forces them into peace, and the leaf part i beleive is where they will eventually be "forced" in to the way of the leaf...
5
ssjx7squall: 2005-05-11
Oh ya sorry foregot to add this on the last post, but i dont understand why everyone here seems to think that when someone says someones gonna die they take it literally. You can die in more ways than one and i mean that by both physically, spiritually, emoitanlly etc. etc. just a thought
6
Callandor: 2005-05-11
**Since I believe that the Aiel are a remnant, then when Rand broke them he created the second remnant. They lost a whole clan in the Shaido, plus all the others that couldn't follow Rand and joined the Shaido, as well as the people that couldn't handle knowing that they used to be Tuatha'an and felt the bleakness. I don't remember if it gives an estimation of how many of the total Aiel stayed with Rand but I think its probably 1/2 or less.**
When the Shaido entered Cairhien, Rand did not have all the clans under his control. After TFOH, and the Shaido had fled, they were the only clan that completely did not accept Rand as the Car'n'carn (there were of course the bleekness people from every clan). Other than that, the rest of the 11 clans all follow Rand, and only the Shaido, the Brotherless, and the bleakness sufferers don't.
Other than the numbers, Cauthon I feel has it right. The first breaking was when the Tinkers left the Aiel, and then when the Shaido left, the rest of the Aiel that follow Rand are the remnant that survive.
The Shaido I feel will be completely irradicated by a lot of factors -- these all center around what is happening with Perrin's rescue of Faile. With help of the Seanchan, Perrin's Forces, Dragonsworn, Brotherless, and possibly a toss in of the Whitecloaks the Shaido will come under fire from outside as well as from within.
The brotherless may "re-join" the Aiel that follow Rand, or also be destroyed, I haven't made up my mind on that part of it yet.
**Oh ya sorry foregot to add this on the last post, but i dont understand why everyone here seems to think that when someone says someones gonna die they take it literally. You can die in more ways than one and i mean that by both physically, spiritually, emoitanlly etc. etc. just a thought**
The prophecy does not say death -- it says only a remnant of a remnant ~survives~. Quite a bit more of a clear line drawn than they will die.
7
JakOShadows: 2005-05-11
I like your idea ssjx, but I don't think it will happen before. I think they will get tired of war and fighting after fighting the last battle. And they won't be forced either. I think they'll see their duty done(helping the Aes Sedai), and they will spiritually see no need to fight. This makes sense with all the prophecies and why they showed how the split off from the Tuathon in Rhuidean.
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MatCauthon: 2005-05-12
**"he shall slay his people with the sword of peace and destroy them with the leaf."**
Nice quote. I think this goes well with my theory that the remaining Aiel are the remnant of a remnant. What drove a lot of them away was reveiling that they used to be Tuatha'an and followed the Way of the Leaf.
9
dedoublya: 2005-05-12
I don't know if anyone is considering the scale of the bleakness. At one point, in The Lord of Chaos, when Rand has been captured, Rhurac, i think, says that every day a thousand Aiel drop their spears. A thousand a day is a lot. The Wise Ones seem to think that this is the remnant of a remnant thing. Rand is taking away the "weak" to reveal the harder inner core that is the remnant of a remnant of the Aiel.
10
JakOShadows: 2005-05-12
Good find there. That does seem to make sense and it would also explain why they showed the vision to the clan leaders.
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MatCauthon: 2005-05-12
****Since I believe that the Aiel are a remnant, then when Rand broke them he created the second remnant. They lost a whole clan in the Shaido, plus all the others that couldn't follow Rand and joined the Shaido, as well as the people that couldn't handle knowing that they used to be Tuatha'an and felt the bleakness. I don't remember if it gives an estimation of how many of the total Aiel stayed with Rand but I think its probably 1/2 or less.**
When the Shaido entered Cairhien, Rand did not have all the clans under his control. After TFOH, and the Shaido had fled, they were the only clan that completely did not accept Rand as the Car'n'carn (there were of course the bleekness people from every clan). Other than that, the rest of the 11 clans all follow Rand, and only the Shaido, the Brotherless, and the bleakness sufferers don't. **
The reason I said 1/2 or less is that I think that while Rand does have 11/12 tribes with him, I think that between the Bleakness and the Brotherless is numbers are much smaller than one would think from that.
Unfortunately, I can't look for any quotes to support this atm and as I recall there's never been a direction % or anything stated of what he does have. I vaguely recall them talking about Rand's numbers versus the Shaido's and I think they were pretty close. But that may have been before the last few clans joined Rand. I'll have to look for it when I get a chance.
12
ssjx7squall: 2005-05-12
Thanx Jack but the only reason i say they will be forced is because it says that He meaning rand will slay em with the sword blah blah blah etc etc..
13
Stilicho: 2005-05-13
I don't think the Aiel will start following the way of the leaf after the LB. As for the prophesy, I believe Rand has already "slain" his people with the leaf by breaking the Aiel with the revelation of their Da'shain Aiel past. The remaining warlike like Aiel will follow him to the LB and those that survive will continue their current culture. The general peace that should follow the LB will reduce the number of wars fought by these Aiel, but they won't adopt the way of the leaf by any means. If that ever happens it will be the result of generations of change in the new, more peaceful age, and not the result of an immediate, imposed Pax Dragonica.
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JakOShadows: 2005-05-13
This does depend on the fact that it will turn into another age of legends. If it turns into another age where there is no one power, then there will still be squabling for vast areas of land, because there will be no group resolving for peace.
15
Callandor: 2005-05-13
**The reason I said 1/2 or less is that I think that while Rand does have 11/12 tribes with him, I think that between the Bleakness and the Brotherless is numbers are much smaller than one would think from that.**
The Bleakness effects the Shaido as well. There's no way that Rand having 11 out of 12 clans under his control, and suffering roughly the same losses as the Shaido, could have half or less of the numbers.
**I vaguely recall them talking about Rand's numbers versus the Shaido's and I think they were pretty close. But that may have been before the last few clans joined Rand.**
It was before Rand had all the clans.
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 42 - Before the Arrow
Without lifting his eyes from the map, he snorted. “You know as well as I. If even one of those, four clans decides to side with Couladin, they'll take you from behind while your hands are still full of Shaido. Couladin will be the anvil and they the hammer, with you the nut between. Only take half of what you have against Couladin. That makes it an even fight, but you have to settle for it.” There was no such thing as fairness in war. You took your enemy from behind, when he least expected it, when and where he was weakest. “You still have an edge. He has to worry about a sortie from the city. The other half, you split in three parts. One to funnel Couladin to the river, the other two a few miles apart, between the city and the four clans.”**
Before the Battle of Cairhien, Rand had twice the Shaido numbers. There were still 4 clans that were undecided. With those 7 clans, Rand had roughly double the Shaid's numbers.
The four clans I would figure to be roughly what Rand's forces where at half. So with all the clans then, before the Battle, Dumai's Wells, and then the spreading of the Shaido, the forces that Rand would have controlled were at least 3:1 greater than the Shaido.
16
Jiana: 2005-05-14
I think I might need to clear something up here. I didn't mean that the Aiel would follow the Way of the Leaf. What I meant was that the LB would change both the Aiel and the Tinkers' view of violence... After the LB, the Aiel would be less ready for fighting (have less of an appetite for it), and the some of the Tinkers would be more ready for fighting. I don't know, if the Tuatha'an decide to hide during the LB, maybe someone finds them and destroys a whole bunch but not all, and the ones that are left are ticked off enough to go to war. But I've wandered. My point was that I don't think the Way of the Leaf as it has been for three thousand+ years will exist after the LB. There will be a version of it, but nowhere near the same.
17
Ashaman Thunder Leader: 2005-05-15
I think it will go more like this. The Aiel were originally like the tinkers. No violence and all that. Then some of them started to do violence until all the liveing Aiel were no longer like tinkers. In a way they were no longer Aiel. Then Rand came along and revealed the truth about their past.(Being Da'shain Aiel) As a result the bleakness came on them and some ran off. I think that the ones that ran off and are trying to live like tinkers(no violence etc.) are the "remnant of a remnant" that he saved by returning them to being Dai'shain.
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ssjx7squall: 2005-05-16
Ya sorry i was the one who kinda started that tangent...
19
Kantuna: 2005-05-22
OK then, how about this.
The original Jenn aiel (Is that the right one? I mean the ones from the AoL, aiel, tinkers et al) are the aiel. Then most went to the waste, and a remnant became the tinkers. Then just pretend that the tinkers ARE in the last battle, for some reason or other. They might find the song in the middle of the last battle or something. Anyway, most of the Tinkers are wiped out and another remnant survives - so there's only some tuatha'an left alive. They would be a remnant of a remnant of the aiel, and for all we know the rest of the aiel could all die in the last battle or before.
Just a quick prediction - I think that almost all of the Shaido will be wiped out in a battle at Malden between Perrin/two rivers and the Shaido in Knife of Dreams.
20
minalth: 2005-05-25
I do not think that the Shaido lose as many to the bleakness as Rand. The Shaido are in denial about the whole situation, and are also acting oddly because they know deep down that Rand is correct.
21
Callandor: 2005-05-26
**I do not think that the Shaido lose as many to the bleakness as Rand.**
Not as many, simply because Rand has more Aiel. The Shaido are still very much effected by the bleakness.
22
JakOShadows: 2005-05-26
Minalth: That's a really good explanation for what's going on. And to tell you the truth, that's the main reason I think they'll be destroyed. They're lack of ability to cope with the changing of the times. Whereas the Aeil who go to Rand and hold strong to their future/destiny will be the remnant.
23
IshaSamMoridin: 2005-06-10
I had a thought, does anyone else equate 'sword of peace' with Aram? a tinker that carries a swrod would kind of pit in with that, i think
