n the Clarity of Foretellings
by Yaga Shura: 2005-05-12 | 6.6 out of 10 (30 votes)
My theory is that the clarity of the Foretelling is directly related to the length of time between the Foretelling taking place, and the incident that was Foretold occurring. There is also some evidence to suggest that clarity of Foretelling is related to whether the individual with the Talent can remember their Foretellings or not.
The main sources of Foretellings in the Wheel of Time are the Karaethon Cycle and Elaida, with other Foretellings coming from Nicola and Gitara.
The Karaethon Cycle predicted events a long time in the future (3000 years and more), and it is extremely hard to understand.
Evidence:
TDR ch6 ~“Even scholars who have studied them for their entire lives do not know how to interpret them all”~ pg93
Tor Website Q&A ~ The Prophecies were the collected Foretellings that occurred before, during and after the War of Power~
Gitara's Foretelling of Rand's birth took place very close to the time of his birth (a day, no more), and it was easily understood.
Evidence:
NS ch2 ~“He is born again!” Gitara cried. “I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!”~ pg 34
Elaida's Foretelling from ACoS was relatively clear, and concerned events in the not too distant future (probably less than a year, although it is not yet possible to say for certain).
Evidence:
ACoS, prologue ~The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds~
Elaida's Foretelling in TEotW was clear, and concerned events over approximately the next three years.
Evidence:
TEotW, ch40~ “This I Foretell," Elaida replied, "and swear under the Light that I can say no clearer. From this day Andor marches toward pain and division. The Shadow has yet to darken to its blackest, and I cannot see if the Light will come after. Where the world has wept one tear, it will weep thousands.”~
This is slightly clearer than might be expected, but Elaida attempting to make her Foretelling clearer can perhaps account for this.
In the prologue to ACoS, Elaida made a foretelling that was badly understood
Evidence:
AcoS prologue ~ long ago she had Foretold that the Royal House of Andor held the key to winning the Last Battle~
As a result of this, she attached herself to Morgase, yet it was Tigraine who was the important member of the House, not Morgase. Some of the confusion can be explained by a lack of knowledge on Elaida's part, but it still seems that some of the confusion must have come directly from some ambivalence in the Foretelling.
Nicola's Foretelling in LoC was about events after the Last Battle (at least a year away), and it was cryptic in some places, but clear in others.
LoC ch14 ~ The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade~ pg362
It is illogical to suppose that Gitara's ability to Foretell would be stronger than that of the Aes Sedai during the Breaking, since all things related to the One Power have declined since that time. This indicates that the strength of Foretelling is not related to clarity.
These things combined suggest that the degree of clarity of a Foretelling is related to the length of time between the Foretelling and it coming true. This explains why the oldest Foretellings are the most cryptic.
Gitara had the Talent very strongly
Evidence:
TGH ch8 ~ when she had the Foretelling, it was strong~ pg128
This could be suggested as a reason why she was so clear, but that supposition does not fit with the evidence from Elaida's Foretellings. By her own admission, Elaida has the Talent weakly, and yet we can see that she is relatively clear.
Evidence:
TSRch1 ~it came seldom and faintly~ pg 26
TEotW ch40 ~ “This I Foretell," Elaida replied, "and swear under the Light that I can say no clearer. From this day Andor marches toward pain and division. The Shadow has yet to darken to its blackest, and I cannot see if the Light will come after. Where the world has wept one tear, it will weep thousands.” She whispers the rest to Rand. “Pain and division come to the whole world, and this man stands in the heart of it”~
It could be argued that she spoke clearly because Morgase commanded it, but there are several pieces of evidence to contradict this, one of which comes directly from Elaida herself. Firstly, from the above quotation,, “I can say no clearer” could either mean that she is actively making her words clear, or that she has no control, no ability to make the words any clearer.
Evidence:
TSR, ch1 ~The Foretelling had come on her at the sight of him~ pg 26
BWB, ch24 ~Foretelling ... cannot be called at will~ pg300
While not conclusive that she did not speak clearly because she was commanded to, they definitely suggest that Elaida has little to no control over her ability.
An analysis of Elaida's Foretelling suggests clarity is not related to Foretelling strength.
However, it does suggest another possibility for why certain Foretellings are clearer than others.
As shown above, Elaida's Foretellings are usually fairly clear. Further, she remembers what she has Foretold.
Evidence:
TSR ch1~The very first thing Elaida had Foretold, while still an Accepted –and had known enough even then to keep to herself~ pg26
Nicola, on the other hand, does not remember what she has Foretold
ACoS ch9 ~The major Talent, Foretelling, emerged so that no one understood what she had Foretold. She herself did not remember a word she said~ pg 193
Although admittedly two people is too few to form a proper theory on this, there are no more examples to go on, and there does seem to be some connection between clarity and memory.
This may also explain why the Karaethon Cycle can be understood at all. Given that Nicola's foretelling, of an event only a few years in the future, is so much more cryptic than Elaida's Foretelling of an event less than a year away, it would seem logical to expect Foretellings three thousand years before their fulfilment to be incomprehensible. If the Aes Sedai making the Karaethon Cycle had the ability to recall their Foretellings, it may help to explain this.
The reason why Foretellings have different degrees of clarity is less clear. One suggestion would be that free will has the ability to jeopardise the accuracy of any Foretold event. This is not to say that the event would not happen
BWB, ch24 ~these events are firmly set into the fabric of the Pattern~ pg300
but rather that the precise details of the event may change. This relates very closely to the nature of predetermination in the Wheel of Time; small details can be altered, the bigger the details are, the less they can be altered.
As to why memory would play a part in the clarity of a Foretelling, there is little evidence to work with in formulating a theory. On pure speculation, it could be argued that the act of the information from the Pattern passing in to the mind of the Foreteller somehow alters the wording. If it does not stay in the mind, it is delivered unprocessed, raw, and lacking refinement, and therefore is lee easily understood, because. If it lodges itself in the mind, it is made easier to comprehend, changing the wording without changing the meaning.
So there it is. My theory on why some Foretellings are clearer than others. The degree of clarity is definitely related to the length of time between the Foretelling and the event, and possibly it is also connected to whether or not the Foreteller remembers the Foretelling.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-05-27
Well done, Yaga. I think you are right to a point. Clarity is subjective. It would seem the individuals ability to receive a foretelling also addresses the clarity issue. Elaida says she gets it faintly, however, she gets stuff regarding events that will occur shortly, when compared to foretellings thousands of years in advance of its occurrence. I think an individuals strength allows them to see further into the future, yet the farther away the event is, the less clarity they have. In other words, Gitara would see an event with more clarity than Elaida would see, regarding the same event. If Elaida had foretold the birth of the Dragon Reborn, it would probably have been, "I see a child, it is the Dragon Reborn, he has come", versus the details Gitara had. Is that what you were suggesting?
2
: 2005-05-27
An interesting theory, but I'm not sure all of your assumptions are correct. For one, I'm not sure the Foretellings you think are clearer really are clearer in any sort of subjective way.
To me, Nicola's Foretellings are not empirically clearer than Prophecies dating from the Age of Legends. It's simply that we, as readers of the book, are privy to certain pieces of information that make us *think* we know what they mean better.
LoC ch14 ~ The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade~ pg362
We know who the first sentence refers to only because we are reading books that have dwelled on these three characters. A person from Randland who didn't know these people wouldn't know what that sentence meant. Maybe many could figure out who the lion sword refers to (or at least that it relates to Andor). Few would figure out the dedicated spear, and very few even know about the one who sees beyond. Judging by the threads we've had on here, we're not sure what the second sentence means or if it even refers to the three people from the first sentence. The great battle sentence seems pretty clear in a general way, but doesn't really tell us anything specific. The next sentence seems to refer to the Seanchan, Aes Sedai and Ashaman; not everyone in Randland is aware of all three of these groups, but those who are could puzzle out that's what this sentence refers to. The last sentence might just be a general statement or might have a specific meaning we don't yet understand.
OK, so some parts are fairly clear to us as readers of the book, some parts are not so clear, and some are pretty unclear. To a Randlander of the time of the Foretelling, all would be even less clear.
Now imagine this very Foretelling had taken place 5 years earlier. Suddenly the woman who sees beyond is even more unknown, the dedicated spear is on the other side of the Spine and has no reason to be thought of in Randland, and the lion sword could have been a number of people related to Andor. The three had no connection yet. The great battle might have been clear, or might have seemed to be any big future battle, not *the* big future battle we can assume it refers to. The Seanchan were unknown and the Ashaman nonexistent, and it would be unlikely the Aes Sedai reference could be made clearly without the balancing Ashaman reference.
Suddenly, the Foretelling is a lot less clear, but not because it got empirically less clear in its wording or anything, but just because of the lack of proximity to events.
Put the Foretelling further back, in the Age of Legends, and suppose it became part of the Cycle. Things like the dedicated spear and the lion sword also didn't exist yet. To scholars for 3,000 years up until the time of the books, practically nothing would be comprehensible. Again, if this Foretelling had come in the exact same words in the Age of Legends, it wouldn't be subjectively less clear, it would just be less clear because the world had a lot of changes to go through before it even resembled the world in the Foretellings. I think the same could be said for it as other Cycle prophecies: that scholars could study it their whole lives and not figure it out. Until things started falling into place: the Return, the Ashaman, three women with certain attributes brought together.
I'd argue that Elaida's Foretelling upon meeting Rand isn't particularly clear. I think you're mistaking general for clear. If you look at it, she really makes no real specific predictions other than some bad stuff is coming down the pike. It is just so general there's nothing really to puzzle out.
Her vision of the White Tower and Black Tower seems clearer, but again, because of our (the reader's) proximity to events. A similar Foretelling before the White Tower existed, or before it was broken, and before the Black Tower existed, would be as puzzling as the Cycle prophecies. Someone who hadn't met Rand might have had a Foretelling of a man meeting the Amyrlin's anger, but Elaida has met Rand so can identify him - I don't think the Foretelling was more clear, she just had knowledge about the people involved that someone having the same Foretelling 3,000 years before wouldn't have. And keep in mind despite all the supposed clarity, Elaida still reads the Foretelling wrong. We, the reader, are privy to information the average Randlander isn't, and that's why the Foretelling is clever foreshadowing and irony, not something to puzzle over or use as evidence that Elaida will triumph.
Gitara's Foretelling is a weird one. Obviously it is quite clear, but also, it doesn't really seem to be a Foretelling of the future but a Foretelling of the present: he is born.
In closing, I think all prophecies or Foretellings are pretty unclear and become more unclear the further they are from the time predicted, but only because the pieces haven't started to fall into place, not because of some difference in the actual Foretelling. Imagine if you had a vision of the future 3,000 years from now. It might be a clear vision, but it still might be a complete mystery to you because you wouldn't understand everything you were seeing due to the differences in the world. Imagine someone from 3,000 years ago seeing our time clearly. How would they be able to understand what they saw clearly enough to make sense, and would it make sense to anyone until the countries and technologies and ways of life that exist now came into being?
I also think there's a sort of observational bias. The Foretellings that seems clear to us are only clear because RJ has seen fit to give us that information. Others aren't necessarily empirically less clear in their wording or meaning, RJ just hasn't given us the pieces of the puzzle yet.
3
Yaga Shura: 2005-05-27
"I think an individuals strength allows them to see further into the future, yet the farther away the event is, the less clarity they have. In other words, Gitara would see an event with more clarity than Elaida would see, regarding the same event. If Elaida had foretold the birth of the Dragon Reborn, it would probably have been, "I see a child, it is the Dragon Reborn, he has come", versus the details Gitara had. Is that what you were suggesting? "
Yes, pretty much. The strength of an individual's Foretelling talent would seem to affect how far in to the future they can see, but the lower limit is unchanged.
4
Callandor: 2005-05-27
**In the prologue to ACoS, Elaida made a foretelling that was badly understood**
Hold on there. Elaida's Foretelling was misunderstood, but that has absolutely no impact on the clarity of it. You said so yourself that the Foretellings made in the AoL as part of the Karaethon Cycle were easily misunderstood, yet clear. But Elaida is exempted from this?
It was a clear Foretelling: the royal line of Andor is the key to winning the Last Battle. Elaida interpreted it badly, but so what? Moiraine interpreted parts of the Karaethon Cycle horribly different from what they ended up being.
**Some of the confusion can be explained by a lack of knowledge on Elaida's part, but it still seems that some of the confusion must have come directly from some ambivalence in the Foretelling.**
I don't see that at all. The Foretelling was explicit -- Elaida interpreted it wrong.
5
Anubis: 2005-05-27
I agree, clarity is subjective.
Take this one.
He will bind the nine moons to him.
Reaction 3000 years ago: Huh?
Reaction today: Tuons gonna serve him? Cool.
6
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-05-28
Nice theory, well thought out.
ummm...the karaethon cycle was written 3000 years old...that wouldn't make it 'nearly imcomprehensible' that'd make it impossible at all to understand, heh.
By the way, while I can't find it, I seem to remember one of the forsaken mentioning that in the Age of Legends the foretelling could be controlled at need.
7
MatCauthon: 2005-05-28
I think that of course the longer the length of time between the fortelling and the event the more unclear the fortelling will be. This would be due to several factors.
The first is the retelling of the fortelling. As everyone knows, word of mouth is the worst way to pass something along as it will get greatly distorted in a short time. Ever play telephone as a kid?
Even if its written there could be damage to the writings over a long period of time or it could be miswritten in the first place. And then on top of that any translations that take place will not have the exact meaning and connotations as the writing did in the original language. Thats with any language and I believe that the Old Tongue (which IIRC the prophocies were first written in) was even worse for this. If you didn't know exactly what the person was saying in the first place, there were many different ways you could translate anything in the Old Tongue.
As for the person remembering the fortelling it goes back to word of mouth. If they don't remember it then they have to rely on someone to have been there, been paying attention, and be able to recite it back verbatim. If not then it will be a little off.
8
Merk: 2005-05-28
FYI, the third post in this theory was by me. Don't know why my name sometimes doesn't take...
9
Yaga Shura: 2005-05-29
Merk: "I'd argue that Elaida's Foretelling upon meeting Rand isn't particularly clear. I think you're mistaking general for clear. If you look at it, she really makes no real specific predictions other than some bad stuff is coming down the pike. It is just so general there's nothing really to puzzle out."
Look at the line "this man stands in the heart of it". Look at the line "Andor marches towards pain and division". Tell me those aren't far clearer than any Karaethon Cycle prophecies.
"To me, Nicola's Foretellings are not empirically clearer than Prophecies dating from the Age of Legends."
To the characters in the book, they are. It is not just me, but the characters themselves, who make this distinction.
"Suddenly, the Foretelling is a lot less clear, but not because it got empirically less clear in its wording or anything, but just because of the lack of proximity to events."
You've made a big -and dangerous- assumption: that the wording would not change. How can you say this?
"Gitara's Foretelling is a weird one. Obviously it is quite clear, but also, it doesn't really seem to be a Foretelling of the future but a Foretelling of the present: he is born."
The tense of the Foretelling is irrelevant. Nicola's Foretelling from LoC was in the present tense, but it most certainly was a Foretelling.
Callandor: "I don't see that at all. The Foretelling was explicit -- Elaida interpreted it wrong. "
The ambivalence comes from not knowing which royal line of Andor: Tigraine or Morgase. A Foretelling of perfect clarity would be immpossible for a reasonably intelligent person such as Elaida to misinterpret.
"You said so yourself that the Foretellings made in the AoL as part of the Karaethon Cycle were easily misunderstood, yet clear."
I did? Where?
Snakes-n-foxes
"that wouldn't make it 'nearly imcomprehensible' that'd make it impossible at all to understand, heh. "
This was part of what made me think that there had to be another factor affecting clarity other than the time between the Foretelling and the event.
10
Merk: 2005-06-07
****Look at the line "this man stands in the heart of it". Look at the line "Andor marches towards pain and division". Tell me those aren't far clearer than any Karaethon Cycle prophecies.*****
Those aren't far clearer than any Karaethon Cycle prophecies. Yes, she specifically identifies him, but other than that, what do we really learn from the Foretelling? It is so non-specific to be useless as prophecy. "Bad stuff's a-comin'" is all she's saying.
***To the characters in the book, they are. It is not just me, but the characters themselves, who make this distinction.*****
Hmm. Got any quotes to support this statement?
*****You've made a big -and dangerous- assumption: that the wording would not change. How can you say this?*****
Huh? I don't understand what you are trying to say. If the wording got changed through the years, it would likely get less clear. But my point was even if the wording were exactly the same, it would still seem less clear because of the distance from the events and lack of familiarity with the subject and time period on the part of the Foreteller and people trying to interpret it through the years.
11
Heron: 2005-06-10
"You've made a big -and dangerous- assumption: that the wording would not change. How can you say this?"
Since I did not write what this is referring to, I can only tell my interpretation of it: when you conduct an experiment to see what affects something, you isolate one factor, or as near to as you can, and record the results. Then you change that factor. The factor in question is time, so the wording must remain constant FOR THE PURPOSES OF THE EXPERIMENT, no other. The wording, of course, also has an effect on the clarity, but regardless of wording, the further from the event in question that a Fortlling is, the harder it will be to understand at the time that it is made. To try to further clarify this, let us use the example of Elaida's "victory speech".
ACOS Prologue, page 19 -- *"The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Fortell."*
At the time of the Fortelling, it seemed that the Aes Sedai would break the White Tower, but "sisters walk its grounds" already. A civil war-type rending seems more likely now that the events are closer in time. The clarity, or at least, the decipherability of the Fortelling has increased, although nothing of the original Foretelling has changed. That's what I think is being said, anyway.
12
Yaga Shura: 2005-06-21
"Those aren't far clearer than any Karaethon Cycle prophecies. Yes, she specifically identifies him"
Which is far more than the KC prophecies manage most of the time. For example, the header prophecy to CoT refers to the left and right hands. Who are they? Can we say for certain? No. What about "The seas rage" from the footer prophecy to LoC?
"Hmm. Got any quotes to support this statement? "
No, I was mistaken. At best, all I can say is that it is unclear if Nicola's Foretellings are easier to understand.
Moiraine says that scholars who have studied the KC for their entire lives still have no idea what to make of parts of it. It also says in AcoS, ch9 that Nicola's Foretellings “emerged so that no-one understood what she had Foretold.” But remember, they haven't had 3000 years of working on interpetation.
This makes Nicola a bad example. But compare her Foretellings to Elaida's, and I think you will see the difference in clarity.
“it would still seem less clear because of the distance from the events and lack of familiarity with the subject and time period on the part of the Foreteller and people trying to interpret it through the years.”
Okay, I agree with that, but I also feel that the wording would become increasingly more complex. Take Elaida's foretelling from TEotW and compare it to, for example, the header prophecy to CoT, which is from the KC. The KC is less clear, despite the fact that we are familiar with the subject material of both