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and is a Dreamwalker

by Saidar Haran: 2006-04-10 | 4 out of 10 (13 votes)

Previous Categories: Prophecies, Foretellings, and Talents

First theory here, so bear with me.

Rand has the ability to become a dreamwalker. I've taken most of the evidence for this from TDR. He is as yet untrained, but he has the ability. This will be the first part of my theory. Second will be the reason that no more evidence has surfaced since TDR.

There are quotes in TDR that say that Rand is a dreamwalker. Egwene encounters him in Tel'aran'rhiod:

**TITLE: The Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 27 - Tel'aran'rhiod

The only one there was a tall young man, sitting and staring into the flames. Rand. Those flames did not burn wood. They did not burn anything she could see.**

**TITLE: The Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 27 - Tel'aran'rhiod

Egwene's lips compressed, but she stepped out. I did not! "It's me, Rand. Do not be afraid. It is a dream. I must be in your dreams."**

**TITLE: The Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 32 - The First Ship

He had once thought he would marry Egwene. A long time ago, that seemed. That was gone, now. She had come in his dreams, though.**

Rand seems to remember his encounter with Egwene, and since she was in Tel'aran'rhiod, this suggests that he was unconsciously there. While this could be explained away as her unconsciously touching his dreams, there are Rand's own dreams:

**TITLE: The Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 32 - The First Ship

Hands, pushing Egwene, and Nynaeve, and Elayne into cages, snaring them in nets, hurting them**

This is clearly a prophetic dream, since Perrin has a similar "Wolf Dream" vision of them, and they are heading toward Be'lal's stronghold ("Weaver of Nets").

Perrin also encounters Rand in his Wolf Dream of Tel'aran'rhiod:

**TITLE: The Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 36 - Daughter of the Night

He was standing on a rise, with shadowy, indistinct dips and swells all around him. They seemed to fade into the distance too soon. Rand stood below him. Rand, and a ragged circle of Myrddraal and men and women his eyes seemed to slide right past.**

**TITLE: The Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 36 - Daughter of the Night

"Burn you!" Rand howled.

Light burned Perrin's eyes, and pain seared everything.**

Rand remembers attacking Perrin:

**TITLE: The Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 36 - Daughter of the Night

Rand sat up out of his exhausted sleep, gasping, the cloak he had used as a blanket falling away. His side ached, the old wound from Falme throbbing. His fire had burned down to coals with only a few wavering flames. That was Perrin. It was! It was him, not a dream. Somehow. I almost killed him!

From all this, I think it should be clear that Rand can touch the World of Dreams in his sleep, and, since he didnâ€™t vanish before their eyes, has the ability of a Dreamwalker. The point that he has prophetic dreams is less certain, but likely.

All my quotes are from TDR so far. I also have a reason for that. I believe that the reason this ability went is due to memories from Lews Therin. According to Callandorâ€™s Barrier Degradation theory, the taint was breaking the barrier between his past life and him. Not until TDR does Rand accept that he can channel. TDR is also when he starts channeling regularly. In TSR(I think, my copy got destroyed), he begins to dream some of Lews Therinâ€™s dreams. I believe that the reason he no longer Dreams is because his prophetic dreams were only prophetic in the AOL, and he doesnâ€™t dreamwalk because he believes that Telâ€™aranâ€™rhiod is only accessible by gateway. If the Wise Ones tried to train him in dreamwalking, then I believe that he would be able to get abilities like Egweneâ€™s (if they could get past their skepticism of male Dreamers, that is.)

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2006-06-07

I think you are right that Rand is a Dreamwalker, obviously untrained. Rand as a Dreamwalker isn't necessarily a new idea, however it is an interesting topic for newer members to discuss; I haven't seen it in a while. Although, I believe it may be something different that is preventing him from going back in T'A'R via his dreams since that time that you mention, which isn't as often discussed. As far as we know, Asmodean teaches Rand to ward his dreams, in fact, if I recall correctly, it is one of his first lessons. From some direct quotes in TFOH, we learn that Rand is now warding his dreams, and that he has learned different levels of wards. It seems more likely that the wards he is using not only prevent those from T'A'R getting in (although some Forsaken speak of ways of breaking those wards), it likely keeps him from entering T'A'R while he sleeps.

Callandor: 2006-06-07

**Rand seems to remember his encounter with Egwene, and since she was in Tel'aran'rhiod, this suggests that he was unconsciously there.**

Rand is not a dreamwalker -- Rand is being tormented into tel'aran'rhiod, due to Ishamael (and/or Lanfear to be technical). We've seen this throughout The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, here in The Dragon Reborn, and again in The Shadow Rising. It amazingly stops from The Fires of Heaven on, once Rand starts warding his dreams from intruders.

For example:

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 27 - Tel'aran'rhiod

"Do you think I don't know it is a dream?" he sneered. "I know that makes it no less real." He stared angrily out into the darkness as if looking for someone. "How long will you try?" he shouted at the night. "How many faces will you send? My mother, My father, now her! Pretty girls won't tempt me with a kiss, not even one I know! I deny you, father of Lies! I deny you!"

"Rand," she said uncertainly. "It's Egwene. I am Egwene." There was a sword in his hands, suddenly, out of nowhere. Its blade was worked out of a single flame, slightly curved and graven with a heron.

"My mother gave me honeycake," he said in a tight voice, "with the smell of poison rank on it. My father had a knife for my ribs. She - she offered kisses, and more." Sweat slicked his face; his stare seemed enough to set her afire. "What do you bring?"**

Rand is in tel'aran'rhiod due to Ishamael (and/or Lanfear); Egwene in this instance just happened to be in the same place while he was. The same thing happened to Perrin.

JakOShadows: 2006-06-08

Interesting theory. It could also be argued that Ishmael was pulling him into T'A'R. Because Ishy had been influencing is dreams through out those three books, if I remember correctly. I always thought he was the one guiding him to take Callandor, and it seem likely to attack him with his friends and shadowspan as well. From the dreams with Perrin and Egwene it seems likely that it was happening a lot. I also think Tam has a point. The warding probably could prevent him from stepping into T'A'R, but I got the impression that the bad dreams ended when Ishmael died.

Tamyrlin: 2006-06-09

Callandor, while it is obvious that Ishamael brings Rand into T'A'R various times, you would have to prove that each time Rand touches T'A'R it was because he was brought in, to prove he isn't a Dreamwalker. Even if you can quote five instances, unless RJ demonstrates that Rand was there on account of being brought in by another, there is still room to believe that Rand is a dreamwalker. I would have to go back and do a re-read of the first four books, but it seems a bit premature to simply pin each entrance into T'A'R on Ishamael.

Callandor: 2006-06-10

**Callandor, while it is obvious that Ishamael brings Rand into T'A'R various times, you would have to prove that each time Rand touches T'A'R it was because he was brought in, to prove he isn't a Dreamwalker.**

So, it's obvious that at times Ishamael brings Rand into tel'aran'rhiod to torment him -- yet it's question why Rand is in tel'aran'rhiod at certain instances?

Go with what you yourself said was obvious: it's a trick by Ishamael (and/or Lanfear). Egwene and Perrin just happened to come to Rand in tel'aran'rhiod at the same time.

**Even if you can quote five instances, unless RJ demonstrates that Rand was there on account of being brought in by another, there is still room to believe that Rand is a dreamwalker. I would have to go back and do a re-read of the first four books, but it seems a bit premature to simply pin each entrance into T'A'R on Ishamael.**

Why? Give me one reason why it would be even thought of that Rand would be a dreamwalker other than "It's a nifty idea."

We know Rand is being pulled into tel'aran'rhiod by Forsaken against his will. We know this amazingly stops once he wards his dreams. We know that Rand doesn't enter into tel'aran'rhiod after that point unless it's via a gateway.

We have a complete pattern of Rand only being in tel'aran'rhiod against his will or via a gateway. Every single instance of him being in there is accounted for by those two methods. Why even begin to assume that Rand is somehow a dreamwalker, then? It's needless complication.

Ieyasu: 2006-06-10

Nice theory. I agree

I've always felt he had the ability/talent to, he just needed to learn or be tought.

A few of those dream sequences he has had did not include Ishmael nor Landfear intervening, or pulling him into TR. He has the ability to enter the dreamworld, just doesnt have the knowledge to effectively use the talent. In TDR I believe there is a few instances stating that he impressed his own dreams upon all the sleeping members of the town he was in. I believe it was Verin or the wiseones (or maybe even Moiraine) who said that that was a sign of one who had the natural talent to dreamwalk.

I believe the wiseones also mentioned something about men dreamwalkers being rare... But I dont think there has been much mention of this talent in the latter portion of the series. I cant recall seeing too much of Rand's dreams, other than some mentions about some of them belonging to LTT.

Tamyrlin: 2006-06-10

Callandor, you know it isn't a fact that Rand isn't a Dreamwalker. You stated it as such, and used for proof, a severe lack of such proof. You can't prove Rand isn't a Dreamwalker. So yes, it is a nice idea, without concrete proof to make it a fact. I haven't studied the books and it isn't my theory, but you are incorrect in your wholesale denial of the idea.

Traveller: 2006-06-11

Hmmm, I dunno...

When reading the books, I always put Rand's strangely realistic dreams down to outside perception, e.g. Ba'alzamon and the other Forsaken bringing him into Tel'aran'rhiod. However, your quotes show quite clearly that later on, he seems to be able to enter Tel'aran'rhiod of his own will. On the other hand, when Egwene was learning with the Wise Ones, didn't they tell her that bringing someone els into TAR was an evil thing. From this I understood that becasue Ba'alzamon kept bringing Rand into TAR, that Rand was somehow affected by this, possibly giving him some ability to enter TAR easily in his sleep, although he seems unaware of what he is doing. (We know that Ba'alzamon brought Rand into TAR, not just went into his dreams, coz Rand describes his dreams with the light coming out of nowhere, but everywhere, and he keeps scratches etc he gets there.)

Anyway, I can see that what you are saying is entirely plausible, that he gets the ability from LTT, but it has always struck me as a kind of side effect of being continually dragged to TAR by Forsaken.

Callandor: 2006-06-12

**Callandor, you know it isn't a fact that Rand isn't a Dreamwalker. You stated it as such, and used for proof, a severe lack of such proof. You can't prove Rand isn't a Dreamwalker.**

Well, since this is a theory dealing with proving that Rand IS a dreamwalker, I'm not finding a particular motivation to give out copious amounts of quotes. They have to prove their proposal.

**So yes, it is a nice idea, without concrete proof to make it a fact.**

It's a nice "Hey, what if...." with absolutely no true substance for it.

**I haven't studied the books and it isn't my theory, but you are incorrect in your wholesale denial of the idea.**

Tell me why. The main evidence used for this theory is already explained with what we know. This theory brings up auxilliary problems that would need to be answered as well, all of which would be nicely answered if Rand is not a dreamwalker.

**However, your quotes show quite clearly that later on, he seems to be able to enter Tel'aran'rhiod of his own will.**

How is it shown to be his own will, when Rand himself knows he's being brought in only to be tormented? What Perrin does in the Wolf Dream is of his own free will (well, that'd bring up a whole debate about the events and such, but merely using the term for simplicity sake) -- what happens to Rand doesn't hold a single marker of any such thing.

Traveller: 2006-06-12

I am really sorry guys, I must have been asleep when I wrote my last reply, I meant "interference" not "perception". Oh dear, I am going more insane than Rand.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-06-13

Well, Callandor has good points about Rand not entering the dreamworld while dreaming since he shielded his dreams.

Also, given what we know about Egwene et al entering TAR - there doesn't seem to be much interaction with other creatures/things in TAR - yet Rands dream ventures to TAR (as far as I can remember) always contained nasty interactions...so we can presume it was in fact the forsaken pulling him into TAR.

The fight with Rahvin in TAR in the flesh was an interesting one...in that Rand, with very little pratice, showed some ability in TAR (in order to be able to resist Rahvin). Of course it's not known how strong Rahvin was in TAR, but given what he was doing to Rand, we can presume he had some talent.

AnotherForsaken: 2006-06-13

*** He has the ability to enter the dreamworld, just doesnt have the knowledge to effectively use the talent. In TDR I believe there is a few instances stating that he impressed his own dreams upon all the sleeping members of the town he was in. I believe it was Verin or the wiseones (or maybe even Moiraine) who said that that was a sign of one who had the natural talent to dreamwalk.

Moirane said that the reason other people kept having the same dream was a channeler who was strong with spirit and didnt shield their dreams could project their dreams on others.

WinespringBrother: 2006-06-13

It does seem that Rand can access TAR on demand, whether in the flesh or in dreaming. Is it known whether he was asleep or awake when he spied on Egwene and learned where the rebel Aes Sedai were? If asleep then (or on any other occasion, that would prove he can access TAR while asleep, and therefore a dreamwalker.

However, there is no mention of him having dreamwalker abilities, like having prophetic dreams, or the ability to visit the GOI, or invade others' dreams.

dudemanguy453: 2006-06-13

Although i think it was a well thought out theory i will have to agree with Callandor in that he is not a dreamwalker and that he is just being brought into T'A'R

wolfbrother10: 2006-06-14

The fight brought up by Snakes n Foxes offers good evidence for LTT being a dreamwalker. He was able to counter all of Rahvin's attacks in TAR. Even before that when he faced Ishy he did the same. We can tell from his POV that these were reactions and or impulses that were done by LTT or what we consider LTT. From this I deduce that LTT was a dreamwalker or was in TAR often and Rand could also be a dreamwalker.

ThunderWalker: 2006-06-14

Traveller does make a point. Rand could have "learned" to enter TAR.

I think it likely that Rand is a Dreamwalker, because a good number of the Forsaken are Dreamwalkers. Sort of a balance.

We know that men can be Dreamwalkers. The WOs say it is rare -- and we can be pretty sure that Ishmael is one. (and possible Asmodean).

However, we also have been told that the ring, tablet, etc are "Training" ter'angreals. That is, people can be trained to enter TAR, even if they aren't born Dreamers. (Whether the training allows them to eventually enter without the ter'angreal is unknown).

I doubt being pulled into TAR a handful of times could effectively train you to enter on your own (though I don't discount the possiblity). I think that if it worked that way, there wouldn't be any need for trainig ter'angreal. All you would need is natural Dreamer as a teacher.

TAR may be involved in the cleansing. If so, Rand would need to have good control over TAR.

I think it possible that Rand *is* a Dreamwalker, and Ishmeal has inadvertantly "forced" Rand to develop this ability. Rand may not konw this, since he now wards his dreams, which keeps him from entering them. But, he has spoken to the Wise Ones enough that he may suspect he has the ability, which may (or may not) help with the battle ahead.

JakOShadows: 2006-06-14

snake'n'foxes:

Actually, in the fight with rahvin, it seemed as if he was fumbling through it a little bit. For example, when the fish started showing up, he struggled for a little and thought I need them to disappear. And as a result they did, but it wasn't because he had skill at it. It was due to the fact that he stumbled into it when he was trying to channel it away. He reacted in the same way as when he was learning to channel.

snakes-n-foxes: 2006-06-15

Hi Jak'O

Yep, Rand showed some degree of incompetence against Rahvin, yet in the end, he held his own...perhaps only just...but in the end - he still held his own...against someone quite obviously trained in TAR.

Rand of course has had no training, and could not be expected to know how to react to new things straight up...so there would have to be some fumbling.

wolfbrother10: 2006-06-15

Thunderwalker:

Where in the books does it say that the dream ter'angreal are for training? I don't recall this.

However, I can see that the use of the ter'angreal would aid someone who had the ability to enter TAR but that was not the purpose of it, I don't think. I think the purpose of the dream ter'angreal was to allow those with no access to TAR to gain access.

Callandor: 2006-06-15

**TAR may be involved in the cleansing. If so, Rand would need to have good control over TAR.**

?

Rand cleansed saidin with the One Power, and the use of the Shadar Logoth evil, nothing more.

**Rand may not konw this, since he now wards his dreams, which keeps him from entering them.**

This just seems like a cop out. Rand's wards we are told keep people from invading his dreams; nothing about him not being able to go into tel'aran'rhiod.

Even so, if Rand is a natural dreamwalker, how come he didn't go into tel'aran'rhiod while he was captured in Lord of Chaos, and wasn't warding his dreams?

TheJester: 2006-06-16

The Training Ter'angreal comment was made by Demandred when he noticed Elayne in TAR in front of the Lion Throne (can't remember off the top of my head which book this is)

Since all the Forsaken can enter TAR and it seems can manage it in the flesh and probably asleep (supported by Demandred's mental comment).

Moghedien can enter in both the flesh and asleep we know since she was spying on Nynaeve.

We know that Lanfear and Ishamael would hook someone from sleep into TAR where they would be in control, and we also know that Asmodean could enter someone else's controled area of TAR, see tSR.

It stands to reason that Lews Therin would have had similar training and Rand would have the same natural abilities.

Now what needs to be determined if Rand learned the rules because he was hooked and moved into TAR and Egwene came across that area.

As to abilities even Egwene couldn't find the GOI unless guided and before just fumbled through the rules of TAR, she also did not shield her dreams as a Novice and I cannot remember if she shields her dreams as Amyrlin.

The Wise Ones do not as they would know instantly if someone came into their dreams (Egwene may be suffering from similar arrogance) and they have far more control over thier own dreams than others.

Rand being male would also develop any abilities later than females, given that we have no way of checking if wards on dreams have bearing of prophetic effects, it is possible that Rand has shielded himself from them.

I however think that he is not a Dreamwalker but was hooked often into TAR and is using knowledge from Lews Therin to open a gateway to TAR and prefers that one.

Ieyasu: 2006-06-17

Rand has been in TAR more than once without forsaken influence.

this is without a doubt. several of his dream sequences do not involve the forsaken at all.

IIRC the spying he did in TAR when he discovered the rebels were in salidar, that came AFTER he started shielding his dreams. AFTER his trip to the waste... no? (no access to my books, i just moved so i cant verify till i figure out which box they are in) correct me if im wrong.

prior to his wardings, several of his dream sequences did not contain the forsaken. i think it is silly to attribute every bad dream/experience he had in TAR as torment by the forsaken. the super girls and aes sedai made quite a few nightmarish situations themselves WITHOUT forsaken influence. to say he has only touched TAR by being pulled there is absolutely silly.

anotherforsaken:

**Moirane said that the reason other people kept having the same dream was a channeler who was strong with spirit and didnt shield their dreams could project their dreams on others.**

yes thanks, i remember correctly now.

callandor:

**So, it's obvious that at times Ishamael brings Rand into tel'aran'rhiod to torment him -- yet it's question why Rand is in tel'aran'rhiod at certain instances?

Go with what you yourself said was obvious:**

it is obvious that ishy has influenced rand's dream.

that, BY NO MEANS, makes him obviously responsible for EVERY SINGLE rand TAR experience.

**We have a complete pattern of Rand only being in tel'aran'rhiod against his will or via a gateway. Every single instance of him being in there is accounted for by those two methods.**

prove it!

**How is it shown to be his own will, when Rand himself knows he's being brought in only to be tormented? **

was he being tormented when he spied and found out about salidar??

rand believes his torment was from one source... however, has rand always been right in what he believes?

as i said previously, nightmarish occurances in TAR are rather easy for the untrained. TAR is molded by the current thoughts of the person in it, it stands to reason in his 'fireside dream' that he created all those images of ppl he loved tempting him on his own. after all, he was being hunted by the shadow relentlessly, in both the waking world, and the world of dreams... the forsaken already have used his family against him in dreams... he is on the run... dark friends at every turn... i would think that would make anyone a bit paranoid. leave anyone with a few stray thoughts... thoughts that form things in TAR.

more than enough to effect a dream. ESPECIALLY a TAR dream...

**Even so, if Rand is a natural dreamwalker, how come he didn't go into tel'aran'rhiod while he was captured in Lord of Chaos, and wasn't warding his dreams?**

untought/untrained?

didnt know he could?

perhaps he hasnt linked TAR via gate way as the same place via sleep?

how come he didnt use the shadowspawn killing weave in KOD during the attack?

how come he didnt balefire semmy and get his hand back? how come he didnt do this? or that? this is a rather pointless line of reasoning...

the WO dreamers... can they ALL access the GOI? do they ALL have prophetic dreams? i think there are various levels of dreaming... being a dreamer has always just meant being able to touch TAR to me.. didnt the wise ones say some are stronger in some aspects than others? but they are ALL dreamers still

we know ishy, lanfear, and moggy were ALL dreamers... i have yet to see a prophetic dream from ANY of them... have you? i dont think GOI or prophetic dreams are what makes a dreamer a dreamer. i think those are two side talents that are closely linked, so i wouldnt disqualify rand as a dreamer for not having prophetic dreams or the GOI

**TITLE: The Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 32 - The First Ship

Hands, pushing Egwene, and Nynaeve, and Elayne into cages, snaring them in nets, hurting them**

is that a prophetic dream or not?

is perrin a dreamwalker? he can access the GOI (he asked hopper if it was possible to bring someone into TAR and hopper said it was evil... that means he has the ability to do so, right?) he has prophetic dreams that touch on reality... hes a dreamwalker, right?

when has rand really had time to develope this ability? he had spent his time in a frantic rush to learn how to use saidin, learn to comman armies, learn to govern nations, learn culturial differences, etc etc all while being hounded by the shadow.. when has he had the time to even persue dreaming? he has enough on his plate as is...

he hasnt made much use of his ability, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Traveller: 2006-06-17

Thunderwalker:

"I doubt being pulled into TAR a handful of times could effectively train you to enter on your own (though I don't discount the possiblity). I think that if it worked that way, there wouldn't be any need for trainig ter'angreal. All you would need is natural Dreamer as a teacher. "

Perhaps the training ter'angreal were created by Dream walkers in order to spread the learning- it would be hard for them to teach everyone every night, whilst there were so little dreamwalkers to help train. And I DO think that being constantly pulled into TAR would help develop the ability of a dreamwalker- this is effectively what the training ter'angreal do- they allow access to TAR, and after a while, the Dreamer can enter without the ter'angreal.

Callandor: 2006-06-19

**IIRC the spying he did in TAR when he discovered the rebels were in salidar, that came AFTER he started shielding his dreams. AFTER his trip to the waste... no?**

Yes, and after he became consciously aware of the weave to enter tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh. Again, Rand has entered tel'aran'rhiod either through a gateway or through Forsaken intervention.

**it is obvious that ishy has influenced rand's dream.

that, BY NO MEANS, makes him obviously responsible for EVERY SINGLE rand TAR experience.**

Again, why? Rand has only been entered into tel'aran'rhiod by Forsaken influence in the past, later on after he sheilds his dreams only through a gateway -- yet it some how must be that Rand is a dreamwalker? You know, never showing any other signs or instances that aren't explained already by the two methods we know he has used (can't really use the Forsaken for this, but that's what it amounts to) to enter tel'aran'rhiod.

Once Rand sheilds his dreams, amazingly, he stops entering tel'aran'rhiod unless it's in the flesh.

**prove it!**

Right -- I'm going to prove the theory that I'm not even working on.

The burden of evidence is on the poster, and anyone that supports the view. So it is you that must prove an instance where Rand enters tel'aran'rhiod without the two methods.

**was he being tormented when he spied and found out about salidar??**

How delightfully taken out of context.

Traveller:

**However, your [Saidar Haran] quotes show quite clearly that later on, he seems to be able to enter Tel'aran'rhiod of his own will.**

My responce (that you used):

**How is it shown to be his own will, when Rand himself knows he's being brought in only to be tormented?**

So, next time try to use proper framing of an issue instead of trying to make it seem like I was saying something that I wasn't.

And to answer your question -- no, Rand was not being tormented. It was an instance when Rand was in tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, as shown:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 32 - Summoned in Haste

Lews Therin rumbled somewhere in the back of his head--he always did when Rand came close to Callandor--but tonight the gleaming crystal sword interested Rand not at all. He stared at where the huge map had hung. Not really a map, there at the end, but something more. What was this place? Was it simple chance that drew him here tonight instead of yesterday, or tomorrow? One of his ta'veren tugs on the Pattern? No matter. Egwene had accepted that summons meekly, and that she would never do if it came from the Tower and Elaida. This Salidar was where her mysterious friends were hiding. Where Elayne was. They had handed themselves to him.

Laughing, he opened a gateway to the reflection of the Palace in Caemlyn.**

So, once again, would you actually prove an instance where Rand is in tel'aran'rhiod that is not explained by what we already know.

**as i said previously, nightmarish occurances in TAR are rather easy for the untrained. TAR is molded by the current thoughts of the person in it, it stands to reason in his 'fireside dream' that he created all those images of ppl he loved tempting him on his own. after all, he was being hunted by the shadow relentlessly, in both the waking world, and the world of dreams... the forsaken already have used his family against him in dreams... he is on the run... dark friends at every turn... i would think that would make anyone a bit paranoid. leave anyone with a few stray thoughts... thoughts that form things in TAR.**

~Sigh~ This is the entire problem. You're framing the situation exactly as it is: with Rand being hounded in his dreams by the Forsaken. Yet, you say that this instance, aside from the countless others, is somehow different through nothing other than claiming it is.

**untought/untrained?

didnt know he could?

perhaps he hasnt linked TAR via gate way as the same place via sleep?**

And here I thought you had just tried to frame my words to try to force me to agree that Rand did have "free will" over his actions regarding entering tel'aran'rhiod....

Get your position straight. If you believe Rand is a dreamwalker, and has shown instances where he's entered of his own accord, he should be able to do it at other times in the series. When he was shielded was a perfect instance for days.

Oh, and just for an addition, you claim the Forsaken hounding Rand was enough to give him nightmarish scenarios? How about being captured and possibly on your way to being gentled or a pawn for the rest of your life, worrying about the safety of one you love, having a voice in your head, and being beaten more than once every day to top if off? You would think that would produce some nightmarish scenarios....

**how come he didnt use the shadowspawn killing weave in KOD during the attack?**

Who knows -- maybe Lews Therin didn't have the time.

**how come he didnt balefire semmy and get his hand back? how come he didnt do this? or that? this is a rather pointless line of reasoning...**

No, they bring up valid questions about people's actions. You're claiming (and trying to assert) that Rand has free control over entering tel'aran'rhiod, and when I ask you about a specific instance where there is nothing for you to hide behind in reasoning, you deflect the issue. The pithy claim that Rand couldn't enter tel'aran'rhiod with his dreams shielded is voided when Rand is captured. I ask again, why didn't Rand go into tel'aran'rhiod then, if he has free will in doing so at other instances, as you so claim?

**the WO dreamers... can they ALL access the GOI? do they ALL have prophetic dreams?**

Any dreamwalker can enter the gap of infinity. From what we know, you have to be a dreamwalker to access the place anyway.

As for prophetic dreams, I can't recall specifically if they said that was always with a dreamwalker, but I doubt it. Being a Dreamer and being a dreamwalker are two different things.

**is perrin a dreamwalker? he can access the GOI (he asked hopper if it was possible to bring someone into TAR and hopper said it was evil... that means he has the ability to do so, right?) he has prophetic dreams that touch on reality... hes a dreamwalker, right?**

Yes, Perrin can access the wolf dream (tel'aran'rhiod), and he has prophectic dreams. It certainly is implied he can enter the gap of infinity.

**when has rand really had time to develope this ability? he had spent his time in a frantic rush to learn how to use saidin, learn to comman armies, learn to govern nations, learn culturial differences, etc etc all while being hounded by the shadow.. when has he had the time to even persue dreaming? he has enough on his plate as is...

he hasnt made much use of his ability, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist.**

All the more relevant to why didn't Rand enter tel'aran'rhiod when he was captured, when he had nothing but time on his hands to do so?

You can't try to cop out through his dreams being warded, you can't cop out through the nightmarish scenario, you can't cop out due to lack of time, and you're certainly claiming Rand has the ability to do it on is own of his own accord.

So, tell me why it did not happen? You couldn't imagaine a better situation for it to specifically happen. So, why?

JakOShadows: 2006-06-20

Ieyasu:

I thought that Callandor was correct. They are all accounted for, because Ishy was tormenting Rand up until the end of tDR. And then in tSR, we don't see anymore dreams that seem like t'a'r. The only times we see him in t'a'r after tDR is when we see him make a gateway.

Saidar Haran: 2006-06-21

Callandor,

When I posted this, I left out all the dreams clearly influenced by Ishy. I agree that it is possible these were caused by Lanfear's influence, but, as you have been asked, please prove it.

Ieyasu:

Thanks for your support. As to him impressing his dreams, I believe AnotherForsaken already said that Moiraine said channelers strong in spirit did this. As spirit is the power most linked to dreams, this does not seem to be evidence one way or the other. I also agree that the situations Rand found himself in could have been created by him (he was on the run, heading toward Callandor, and at the time not sure in his control of Saidin and therefore afraid of what he could encounter.)

Traveller:

I agree that it is possible that being continually dragged in "trained" him, so to speak, but as I believe someone mentioned, why would training dream ter'angreal be needed then? At the very least, I think that he gets some "instincts" or habits from LTT to help him.

snakes-n-foxes:

You do have a good point there; I mentioned above that it's possible that Lanfear's influence was part of this, though it seems more her style to invade his dreams thant to pull him to tel'aran'rhiod.

ThunderWalker:

I never really considered what "Training Ter'angreal" could imply. Rand has visited Tel'aran'rhiod enough that he may be able, if training allows a person to touch the World of Dreams at will, to go there. Some support comes from the fact that Egwene uses the ring before she reaches the World of Dreams unaided, but someone would probably tell me that was because she already had the talent.

Callandor(again):

You quoted: **TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 32 - Summoned in Haste

Lews Therin rumbled somewhere in the back of his head--he always did when Rand came close to Callandor--but tonight the gleaming crystal sword interested Rand not at all. He stared at where the huge map had hung. Not really a map, there at the end, but something more. What was this place? Was it simple chance that drew him here tonight instead of yesterday, or tomorrow? One of his ta'veren tugs on the Pattern? No matter. Egwene had accepted that summons meekly, and that she would never do if it came from the Tower and Elaida. This Salidar was where her mysterious friends were hiding. Where Elayne was. They had handed themselves to him.

Laughing, he opened a gateway to the reflection of the Palace in Caemlyn.**

That last bit seems as though, from Tel'aran'rhiod, he's Traveling to another part of tel'aran'rhiod. If it was back to the waking world, it should have just been "to the palace in Caemlyn." If he Traveled back to Caemlyn's reflection, he would be mimicing the belief of Aes Sedai who first touch Tel'aran'rhiod: That you have to be where your sleeping body was to return to it. This could go either way, but I would say it indicates that he has touched tel'aran'rhiod accidentally but doesn't realize the rules of this world.

Sorry it took so long to reply to this.

Callandor: 2006-06-21

**I thought that Callandor was correct. They are all accounted for, because Ishy was tormenting Rand up until the end of tDR. And then in tSR, we don't see anymore dreams that seem like t'a'r. The only times we see him in t'a'r after tDR is when we see him make a gateway.**

Well, we do see incidents of similar nature, but not quite like what Ishamael did to Rand. Rand has Lanfear and Asmodean enter into his actual dreams (not pull him into tel'aran'rhiod), but it is at least important to highlight that it's still the Forsaken the ones doing this to Rand.

But yes, after Rand learns to shield his dreams, we only see Rand in tel'aran'rhiod when he enters via a gateway.

Traveller: 2006-06-22

"Traveller:

**However, your [Saidar Haran] quotes show quite clearly that later on, he seems to be able to enter Tel'aran'rhiod of his own will.**

My responce (that you used):

**How is it shown to be his own will, when Rand himself knows he's being brought in only to be tormented?**

So, next time try to use proper framing of an issue instead of trying to make it seem like I was saying something that I wasn't. "

Was all of that to me? I am utterly confused coz I never used that quote from you. So I would appreciate not being told not to make you sound like you're saying something you weren't, when I didn't use that quote at all, or say that. Sorry if I sound rude, but I am utterly confused.

Traveller: 2006-06-22

Sorry, all of that last reply from me was to Callandor.

Ieyasu: 2006-06-23

jako

i dont agree, there are dreams rand has that do not involve the forsaken, and that can be explained by the inherent nature of TAR and thoughts.

hence why ive asked callie to back up his assertation two times now.

Anubis: 2006-06-23

Callandor is requesting an instance when Rand has entered TAR both while sleeping, and of his own free will.

The only instance even worth bringing up in this argument, and it is very debatable, is in the waste when Lanfear and Asmodean entered his dreams. TAR COULD have been involved. But I doubt it.

Something interesting. Is it possible to Skim to TAR?

Callandor: 2006-06-25

**When I posted this, I left out all the dreams clearly influenced by Ishy. I agree that it is possible these were caused by Lanfear's influence, but, as you have been asked, please prove it.**

This is you're theory Saidar. The burden of evidence is on you to make such broad sweeping claims.

As well, I don't really think these were influenced by Lanfear; they stink still of Ishamael, since Lanfear seems to prefer to enter into Rand's actual dreams rather than draw Rand elsewhere. As well, the process was clearly intended to kill Rand since all the people he could trust tried to kill him that he referenced, and Ishamael clearly wanted Rand dead throughout the Dragon Reborn.

**That last bit seems as though, from Tel'aran'rhiod, he's Traveling to another part of tel'aran'rhiod.**

Well, yes, he is. He's using the gateway from Tear to go to Caemlyn, where he will exit tel'aran'rhiod. If Rand exited in Tear, he would leave right from that place. He apparently wanted to leave from Caemlyn.

**If he Traveled back to Caemlyn's reflection, he would be mimicing the belief of Aes Sedai who first touch Tel'aran'rhiod: That you have to be where your sleeping body was to return to it.**

How is that? Rand is using a gateway -- Rand is clearly in tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh.

**This could go either way, but I would say it indicates that he has touched tel'aran'rhiod accidentally but doesn't realize the rules of this world.**

Once again, people in tel'aran'rhiod by dream do not use gateways. Rand is going to Caemlyn so he can leave the world of dreams there, instead of in Tear. Gateways into and out of the flesh in tel'aran'rhiod only work as far as we've seen from the same specific location (they make it seem like they've really opened a doorway to the same place).

**Was all of that to me? I am utterly confused coz I never used that quote from you. So I would appreciate not being told not to make you sound like you're saying something you weren't, when I didn't use that quote at all, or say that. Sorry if I sound rude, but I am utterly confused.**

No, no, not to you Traveler. Ieyasu took my comments that were to you out of context and tried to show them as saying something else.

**i dont agree, there are dreams rand has that do not involve the forsaken, and that can be explained by the inherent nature of TAR and thoughts.

hence why ive asked callie to back up his assertation two times now.**

Yes, the assertion when it's the posters theory, and those that support it, that have the burden of evidence.

As for your other comment, yeah, Rand has dreams that don't involve the Forsaken. He has a lot of silly dreams about people -- normal dreams.

You guys have to show a situation that Rand was in tel'aran'rhiod, of his own free will, without the Forsaken obviously partaking a hand. The instances in the original post, and the suggested one of the Waste are hardly sufficent to even bring doubt to that the Forsaken are the ones behind Rand being in tel'aran'rhiod not using a gateway instead of Rand doing it himself.

Anubis: 2006-06-27

I think you peeps need to also take into account that normal people can accidently enter TAR briefly while sleeping.

Trahelion: 2006-06-27

I think this is a good theory and I aggree with it. There is much evidence that it is possible nod no evidece that it can not happen at all. Callondor, just becuase it is possible that Rand was foricbly brought to Telaranriod doesnt mean that it is not possible that he is a Dreamwalker. Your opinions make sense but so do Saidars and I realy dont think its necessary for oyu to have to think you have to be right.

Callandor: 2006-06-27

**Callondor, just becuase it is possible that Rand was foricbly brought to Telaranriod doesnt mean that it is not possible that he is a Dreamwalker. Your opinions make sense but so do Saidars and I realy dont think its necessary for oyu to have to think you have to be right.**

If Saidar is right in their claims, then Rand can enter tel'aran'rhiod of his own free will without a gateway. Because of this, we should have at least ONE insident where we can say definatively "Yes, Rand is in tel'aran'rhiod with no other means than dreaming in." We don't have that. Every single instance of Rand being in tel'aran'rhiod is explained by being forced into it by the Forsaken, or entering it via a gateway. There are no situations that require Rand being a dreamwalker; it's a completely extra and useless supposition that is based on nothing but an idle wish.

Ieyasu: 2006-06-28

callie:

the quote you produced from tdr chap 27 is perfect example of a time he was in TAR without forsaken intervention. you are only using the context YOU want in that rand screamed out into the night.

however reread the dream again, it makes no mention of any forsaken pulling him into tar, nor gateways. when egwene appears there is no lanfear or ishy sending images at him.

you are mistaken when you say i have to show him in TAR of his own free will. all that needs to be shown is that he was in TAR without forsaken intervention or a gateway.

choice has nothing to do with it.

did egwene first touch TAR by choice?

his screaming at the night doesnt mean that all those things occured within the same dream. all of those things are quite plausible images he himself created in his highly paranoid state of mind. there is nothing in that dream that you yourself quoted to make it stand out that rand was pulled into TAR at that time.

same thing with the dream involving perrin.

there are no forsaken mentioned at all in relation to how rand got there.

if you would like to assume that he was pulled in both times, be my guest. i personally dont make that assumption.

"You guys have to show a situation that Rand was in tel'aran'rhiod, of his own free will, without the Forsaken obviously partaking a hand."

no, not by free will

only a time when he was there without a gateway or forsaken intervention.

you yourself provided such proof. not to mention the quotes in the original post as well.

once again, i challenge you to back up your claims with quotes callie.

its ok to disagree callie, jsut say that. dont make allegations that you cant back up.

if you are going to allege he is ONLY there by those two methods, then you need to provide the back up.

lurk: 2006-06-28

~Rand is not a dreamwalker -- Rand is being tormented into tel'aran'rhiod, due to Ishamael (and/or Lanfear to be technical). We've seen this throughout The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, here in The Dragon Reborn, and again in The Shadow Rising. It amazingly stops from The Fires of Heaven on, once Rand starts warding his dreams from intruders. ~

Question: when you ward your dream does it mean that you cannnot enter TÂ´AÂ´R anymore?. This could explain why Rand does not dream anymore.

some very circumstantial evidence (do not shoot me for this :) ). We know Aes Sedai ward their dreams, they are wary of them. True we do not know if all AS ward their dreams. But there has not been a serious dreamwalker among the AS in a long tim, could be caused by the warding of their dreams.

aaaah just my 2 cts

JakOShadows: 2006-06-28

Trahelion:

I see your point that there is a possibility that he is a dreamwalker, but I prefer to ascribe to idea of Occam's Razor. It is far simpler and has been shown that Rand has been forced into t'a'r before. So since that is intuitively more obvious, to prove otherwise should require more evidence in my opinion.

Callandor: 2006-06-28

**the quote you produced from tdr chap 27 is perfect example of a time he was in TAR without forsaken intervention. you are only using the context YOU want in that rand screamed out into the night.**

How is it at all a "perfect" example? Rand himself is telling us that the Forsaken have been pulling him into tel'aran'rhiod and torturing him in his dreams -- exactly as Ishamael did in The Eye of the World and The Great Hunt.

**however reread the dream again, it makes no mention of any forsaken pulling him into tar, nor gateways. when egwene appears there is no lanfear or ishy sending images at him.**

You're right -- except:

**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 27 - Tel'aran'rhiod

"Do you think I don't know it is a dream?" he sneered. "I know that makes it no less real." He stared angrily out into the darkness as if looking for someone. "How long will you try?" he shouted at the night. "How many faces will you send? My mother, My father, now her! Pretty girls won't tempt me with a kiss, not even one I know! I deny you, father of Lies! I deny you!"

"Rand," she said uncertainly. "It's Egwene. I am Egwene." There was a sword in his hands, suddenly, out of nowhere. Its blade was worked out of a single flame, slightly curved and graven with a heron.

"My mother gave me honeycake," he said in a tight voice, "with the smell of poison rank on it. My father had a knife for my ribs. She - she offered kisses, and more." Sweat slicked his face; his stare seemed enough to set her afire. "What do you bring?"**

Rand is telling us what has been going on this entire time. It's not Rand doing this to himself; it's the Forsaken. If you notice, in The Eye of the World, an amazingly similar situation occurs:

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow

"Mother?" he breathed, and she smiled, a hopeless smile. His mother's smile. "No! My mother is dead, and the other two are safe away from here. I deny you!" Egwene and Nynaeve blurred, became wafting mist, dissipated. Kari al'Thor still stood there, her eyes big with fear.**

Rand enters tel'aran'rhiod (this time through a gateway), and is tempted by constructs made by a Forsaken. Where have we seen this before?

**you are mistaken when you say i have to show him in TAR of his own free will. all that needs to be shown is that he was in TAR without forsaken intervention or a gateway.**

If Rand is in tel'aran'rhiod by a gateway or by Forsaken means, he's obviously not entering tel'aran'rhiod of his own free will the way a dreamwalker does.

Once again, you have yet to do this. But thank you for finally realizing the burden of evidence is on you (technically Saidar, but supporters as well).

**choice has nothing to do with it.

did egwene first touch TAR by choice?**

She chose to enter tel'aran'rhiod by putting on the dream ter'angreal. Are we going to get into a discussion about fate or are you postering for a semantical issue for no true meaning?

**his screaming at the night doesnt mean that all those things occured within the same dream.**

No kidding -- no one has ever said that. It's your repeated refusal to see the only ways that we know of Rand entering tel'aran'rhiod: by a gateway or by a Forsaken pulling him into it.

**there is nothing in that dream that you yourself quoted to make it stand out that rand was pulled into TAR at that time.**

Right -- except for Rand screaming obviously at the Forsaken who are doing this.

**if you would like to assume that he was pulled in both times, be my guest. i personally dont make that assumption.**

And no one really knows why. Again, why is it that in this instance it must be that Rand dreamed himself into tel'aran'rhiod, when every other single instance is covered by Forsaken intervention or a gateway (assuming for sake that people even agree that this isn't an obvious incident of Forsaken intervention)?

And furthermore, where are the other incidents that become necessary if Rand is a dreamwalker? I'm still waiting for your grand explanation for why it isn't a perfect opportunity for Rand to showcase that he is a dreamwalker when he is captured by the Aes Sedai.

**no, not by free will

only a time when he was there without a gateway or forsaken intervention.**

Which is going to be what? Of his own free will. Rand actually thinking "Hey, I want to go into tel'aran'rhiod. Let's go to sleep and dream myself there." You've yet to do this. You've yet to come close.

**once again, i challenge you to back up your claims with quotes callie.**

Again -- what claims am I making here? I'm stating common knowledge. Rand, throughout the early books, was hounded by the Forsaken in his dreams (Ishamael in particular) and this brought him into tel'aran'rhiod. The only other way Rand has done this is through a gateway.

It is Saidar that is claiming there is something more to the situation than we know of, and you that are supporting such a notion. Hence, it falls on you to back up your claims.

**its ok to disagree callie, jsut say that. dont make allegations that you cant back up.

if you are going to allege he is ONLY there by those two methods, then you need to provide the back up.**

1. I do disagree, and have said that repeatedly.

2. Again, it's common knowledge and we've seen it repeatedly that Rand only goes into tel'aran'rhiod by Forsaken intervention or a gateway. If you believe there is another method Rand is using, you must support it.

**Question: when you ward your dream does it mean that you cannnot enter TÂ´AÂ´R anymore?. This could explain why Rand does not dream anymore.**

I have no idea why people would believe so. The wards are designed to keep people from entering dreams; we've heard absolutely nothing about keeping people in because of them.

And as well, again, even if the wards do this for some reason, we have a perfect instance where Rand didn't ward his dreams: when he is captured by the Aes Sedai. Why didn't we see him go into tel'aran'rhiod if he is a dreamwalker like Egwene has done in Knife of Dreams when she is captured?

jason wolfbrother: 2006-06-29

**Ieyasu:

callie:

the quote you produced from tdr chap 27 is perfect example of a time he was in TAR without forsaken intervention. you are only using the context YOU want in that rand screamed out into the night.

however reread the dream again, it makes no mention of any forsaken pulling him into tar, nor gateways. when egwene appears there is no lanfear or ishy sending images at him.**

you are mistaken when you say i have to show him in TAR of his own free will. all that needs to be shown is that he was in TAR without forsaken intervention or a gateway.

and where else in the book has it shown the Forsaken actually pulling Rand into TAR? Where have we seen Rand in TAR in the Flesh without a Gateway? As Callandor (not callie, Callandor, give him the respect of using his name, as he does to you) has repeatedly pointed out, every instance of Rand in TAR has been shown to be either Forsaken intervention, or Rand making a Gateway into TAR himself.

**choice has nothing to do with it.

did egwene first touch TAR by choice?**

Um yeah she did. When Verin gave her the dream ter'angreal studied by Corianin Nedeal. When Egwene first used that ter'angreal was her first visit to TAR.

Tamyrlin: 2006-06-29

JWB and Callandor - It isn't necessary to want to touch TAR, to get there. Dreamwalkers, in a similar fashion to those born with the spark of channeling, will enter TAR, even if they don't want to try. Just as Perrin did, without trying. It is part of the gift, to touch TAR. The dream ter'angreal is merely a teaching device, and a help for those that can't naturally touch TAR. Also, Egwene learns to touch TAR at will thanks to her training. Rand would have had no such training, and therefore the idea he could ever simply enter TAR at will isn't likely. Consider Egwene's "dream" before she gets a hold on the ter'angreal.

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 12 - Woven in the Pattern

"I - I don't think they're in the Blight, or back in Fal Dara. I had a dream." She said it half defiantly. It sounded silly when she said it, but it had seemed so real. A nightmare for true, but real. First there had been a man with a mask over his face, and fire in place of his eyes. Despite the mask, she had thought he was surprised to see her. His look had frightened her till she thought her bones would break from shivering, but suddenly he vanished, and she saw Rand sleeping on the ground, wrapped in a cloak. A woman had been standing over him, looking down. Her face was in shadow, but her eyes seemed to shine like the moon, and Egwene had known she was evil. Then there was a flash of light, and they were gone. Both of them. And behind it all, almost like another thing altogether, was the feel of danger, as if a trap was just beginning to snap shut on an unsuspecting lamb, a trap with many jaws. As though time had slowed, and she could watch the iron jaws creep closer together. The dream had not faded with waking, the way dreams did. And the danger felt so strong she still wanted to look over her shoulder - only somehow she knew that it was aimed at Rand, not at her."

Obviously, Egwene dreamed herself into TAR, accidentally, because she had the gift, before she ever touches the ring. I haven't had time to scour each moment Rand touches TAR, but the idea certainly isn't far fetched, it just needs more concrete evidence. But I will note, the only real evidence this "theory" needs is to demonstrate Rand in TAR, without being brought there by Forsaken or by opening a gateway. Just because Rand blames coming into TAR on the Forsaken, doesn't mean they did, nor is it factual evidence against the idea. If we actually saw Rand enter TAR without help...this wouldn't be a theory.

Anubis: 2006-06-29

**If we actually saw Rand enter TAR without help...this wouldn't be a theory.**

Like I said, non dreamwalkers CAN enter TAR. We have seen it, they think they are just dreaming.

Leaving two options:

1. They are latent dreamwalkers.

2. You don't need to be a dreamwalker to briefly and accidently enter TAR.

If Rand entered TAR briefly, did not realize he was in TAR, and left, option 2 could still apply. However, that has not happened, and all we have seen is Forsaken dream manipulation.

Ieyasu: 2006-06-29

JWD: (Feel free to correct if I am wrong in using this abbreviation without disrespecting you.)

"(not callie, Callandor, give him the respect of using his name, as he does to you)"

Excuse me, Iâ€™ve seen it used in other posts, I thought it was a nickname, a shortening like your acronym/abbreviation. Respect has nothing to do with it.

Callandor:

"Rand is telling us what has been going on this entire time. It's not Rand doing this to himself; it's the Forsaken. If you notice, in The Eye of the World, an amazingly similar situation occurs"

If you notice, when the forsaken are involved they are IN the dream. IIRC I canâ€™t think of a single 'torment' dream that doesnâ€™t involve them directly.

It is a perfect example of a time he is in TAR without any explained means.

His rant into the darkness doesnâ€™t prove anything about how he entered into TAR. He rants about the tormenting dreams.

I donâ€™t have the quotes off hand, but I canâ€™t recall any tormenting dreams that donâ€™t have onscreen appearances of the forsaken.

But in these two dreams (this one and the one involving Perrin) we donâ€™t see any direct forsaken involvement. We see rand at a fire side in a highly paranoid state of mine in a medium where thoughts can take life. We see him rant about bad dreams. In the Perrin one we see him sword fighting shadow spawn, no forsaken, which, prior to these dreams, have been present in each tormenting dream. These dreams make no mention of how he is in TAR.

"Once again, you have yet to do this. But thank you for finally realizing the burden of evidence is on you (technically Saidar, but supporters as well)."

I donâ€™t agree. I believe anyone who makes an allegation should back up their allegation when requested. Saidar provided quotes supporting his allegation. You have made an allegation that he has ONLY entered TAR by those two methods. As Tamyrlin said right after, you will have an extremely difficult time supporting that claim. There is no need to back it up as itâ€™s already debunked in that we donâ€™t see how he enters TAR every single time. These two dreams donâ€™t show any direct forsaken involvement, and donâ€™t explain how he got to TAR.

"No kidding -- no one has ever said that. It's your repeated refusal to see the only ways that we know of Rand entering tel'aran'rhiod: by a gateway or by a Forsaken pulling him into it. "

My point is that there are other ways to enter TAR than the two we have seen Rand use.

His rant doesnâ€™t prove how he entered TAR. We have basically seen everything he rants about already.

IIRC the two dreams that involve 'real' Egwene and 'real' Perrin are the only two TAR dreams we see of Rand in TAR without direct forsaken involvement, a gateway, and we have no known way of entry.

I always have viewed that the Perrin dream was sort of rand training himself to use the power, and his comments in it make it seem like it has occurred more than once.

As for my question about Egwene, the significance is that she has entered TAR prior to the training device Verin gave her. I thought this was common knowledge, as seen in the quote Tamyrlin provided.

Tamyrlin:

"JWB and Callandor - It isn't necessary to want to touch TAR, to get there. Dreamwalkers, in a similar fashion to those born with the spark of channeling, will enter TAR, even if they don't want to try. Just as Perrin did, without trying. It is part of the gift, to touch TAR."

This is exactly what I was getting at.

Callandor:

"Which is going to be what? Of his own free will. Rand actually thinking "Hey, I want to go into tel'aran'rhiod. Let's go to sleep and dream myself there." You've yet to do this. You've yet to come close."

And Iâ€™m suggesting exactly what Tamyrlin just said. That touching TAR isnâ€™t a choice, just like touching saidin for an inborn channeler isnâ€™t a choice. Itâ€™s not a matter of 'if' or â€˜choiceâ€™, itâ€™s a matter of 'when'. The option of â€˜by choiceâ€™ comes with training. If he is a born dreamer, it stands to reason that he will enter TAR on his own, not by choice, just like Egwene did. Just like he didnâ€™t touch saidin by choice, or â€˜his own free willâ€™ until after he learned how. He hasnâ€™t learned how to touch TAR by choice yet. That is why he didnâ€™t do it when he was captured, as you suggest he would do if he was a dreamer.

"Again -- what claims am I making here?"

You are claiming that he has only entered TAR by those two methods. Can you prove that claim?

on screen we have seen him pulled into TAR (though, I'm not so sure he actually gets pulled in to TAR per se, ill address this a little later on)

On screen we have seen him enter via gateway.

What we HAVENT seen is how he has entered EVERY SINGLE TIME.

These two dreams in particular have no direct forsaken involvement, and IIRC are the only dreams that we donâ€™t see either forsaken or a gateway.

"2. Again, it's common knowledge and we've seen it repeatedly that Rand only goes into tel'aran'rhiod by Forsaken intervention or a gateway. If you believe there is another method Rand is using, you must support it."

I donâ€™t agree this is common knowledge.

I believe these dreams which have no direct forsaken involvement, and also have no explained entry suggest that rand has touched TAR involuntarily on his own. Nothing about these two dreams in particular proves there was forsaken involvement.

Your 'by choice' comment is negated because I believe as a dreamer, he would touch TAR regardless of whether or not he choose to. I believe these two dreams are his dreamer talent manifesting itself without his conscious knowledge or choice. Much like the way he â€˜refreshedâ€™ Bella.

side note: I guess I would say rand is a wilder dreamer. Perhaps he has 'blocked' himself from entering by choice due to the early forsaken involvement. But he would still touch TAR on his own a couple times. Perhaps to train him to dreamwalk, this would be a block to over come, who knows. Entering by gateway could be his trigger, just like anger was for nyn. But this is all just speculation.

I am supporting it. The quotes are already provided. You are making a completely separate claim that it is the ONLY way he has entered TAR.

Iâ€™m not so sure the forsaken actually pull him into TAR every time. I believe it is mentioned that exceptionally strong dreams can enter and control (to some degree) another persons dream. It is not necessary that they pull him in so much, and as seen with Egwene in the quote provided by Tamyrlin, it could be that they are entering his dreams and controlling to some degree rather than pulling him into TAR. but this is a separate issue, for the sake of this conversation 'pulling into TAR' works well to name whatever it exactly is that the forsaken are doing, whether its hooking him into actual TAR or entering his dreams and bringing TAR to rand (so to speak)

JWB:

"and where else in the book has it shown the Forsaken actually pulling Rand into TAR?"

I donâ€™t know if they are pulling him to TAR or as suggested in Egwene's dream, they are entering his dream. Iâ€™m terming whatever it is exactly they are doing to torment him as 'pulling into TAR'

"Where have we seen Rand in TAR in the Flesh without a Gateway?"

Iâ€™m suggesting these two dreams (which we donâ€™t see how he entered NOR do we see overt forsaken involvement) are an instance we see Rand in TAR without a gateway.

"Um yeah she did. When Verin gave her the dream ter'angreal studied by Corianin Nedeal. When Egwene first used that ter'angreal was her first visit to TAR."

Um no she didnâ€™t. See Tamyrlin quote.

I thought this was common knowledge...

Tamyrlin:

I think we are on the same wavelength. This is exactly what I was getting at.

jason wolfbrother: 2006-06-29

my objection to callie is simply a repeat of Callandor's own objection which he has made repeatedly. obviously if he wants to he can object himself and I'll leave it at that.

Tamyrlin I disagree with your "Obvious" statement. I don't think Egwene was in TAR. We know she is a Dreamer. We know that a Dreamer is not the same as a Dreamwalker. We know that Dreamwalker's use TAR. But we also know that Dream's do not take place in TAR. So her first Dream doesn't put her in TAR. That took place with the ter'angreal Verin gave her. That was her first vist to TAR. take a look at that quote

"TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 27 - Tel'aran'rhiod

"So this is Verin's Tel'aran'rhiod," she said. "Corianin Nedeal's World of Dreams. It does not look dangerous to me." But Verin had said it was. Black Ajah or not, Egwene did not see how any Aes Sedai could tell a lie right out. She could be mistaken. But she did not believe Verin was.

Abruptly she let it go. The butterflies settled back, unconcerned by their brief adventure. Myrddraal and some other Shadowspawn could sense someone channeling. Looking around, she could not imagine such things in that place, but just because she could not imagine them did not mean they were not there. And the Black Ajah had all those ter'angreal studied by Corianin Nedeal. It was a sickening reminder of why she was there.

Yet it was more than a matter of proving to herself that she was not afraid. She was afraid, and knew it. But so long as the Black Ajah had those ter'angreal Corianin had studied, she would have to keep going back. She was sure the answer to why they wanted them lay in Tel'aran'rhiod. If she could find answers about the Black Ajah there perhaps other answers, too, if half what she had been told about Dreaming were true - she had to go back. "But not tonight," she said softly. "Not yet." "

not the same as her Dreams throughout TGH at all. and those were clearly Dreams.

Callandor: 2006-06-30

**JWB and Callandor - It isn't necessary to want to touch TAR, to get there. Dreamwalkers, in a similar fashion to those born with the spark of channeling, will enter TAR, even if they don't want to try. Just as Perrin did, without trying. It is part of the gift, to touch TAR.**

Do you have a quote, Tam? I don't remember it being said that a dreamwalker will enter tel'aran'rhiod whether they wanted to or not. Perrin's case can be argued to be slightly different since he's a wolfbrother (even though we know he is in all by true name a dreamwalker).

Even if this is true, shouldn't that just be all the worse for this theory? Rand should be entering into tel'aran'rhiod a lot then on his own (if not knowingly, apparently). We should be seeing several instances, many times over, instead of just two exceedingly suspicious instances.

**Obviously, Egwene dreamed herself into TAR, accidentally, because she had the gift, before she ever touches the ring.**

It's very weird, but I would actually argue Egwene is not in tel'aran'rhiod. She says it was like a dream but true, yes, but look at what she describes. Seeing Ishamael, then seeing what is very comparable to one of her many other True Dreams. Notice how Egwene can sense the "feel of danger," the sense of a trap, and how Ishamael just up and vanished.

**I haven't had time to scour each moment Rand touches TAR, but the idea certainly isn't far fetched, it just needs more concrete evidence.**

I've not said it's far fetched -- I've said we have no evidence at all for it, especially not the situations given. It makes problems for what we already know that would remain unaddressed and simply lingering. It's needless complication.

**Just because Rand blames coming into TAR on the Forsaken, doesn't mean they did, nor is it factual evidence against the idea.**

Right. Because we've never seen it happen before at all, Tam.

We know Ishamael at least of the Forsaken was doing this specifically to Rand (as well as Mat and Perrin), and even doing the exact same things in the given example: tempting Rand with constructs made in tel'aran'rhiod. To even begin to doubt that this isn't just another example of this requires far more than has been presented here.

**If you notice, when the forsaken are involved they are IN the dream. IIRC I canâ€™t think of a single 'torment' dream that doesnâ€™t involve them directly.**

How about when Rand has a series of dreams in The Eye of the World chapter 9? Such as seeing Shayol Ghul, Dragonmound, and Tar Valon? Ishamael wasn't in the dream; however, it is undoubtedly his influence here.

**It is a perfect example of a time he is in TAR without any explained means.**

If you completely ignore the previous events that are all Forsaken involvement and Rand's own saying that it is Ishamael.

**His rant into the darkness doesnâ€™t prove anything about how he entered into TAR. He rants about the tormenting dreams.**

....

Which are the dreams where he is pulled into tel'aran'rhiod by Ishamael and, you know, tormented.

**In the Perrin one we see him sword fighting shadow spawn, no forsaken, which, prior to these dreams, have been present in each tormenting dream.**

You are incorrect in the last bit.

**I donâ€™t agree. I believe anyone who makes an allegation should back up their allegation when requested. Saidar provided quotes supporting his allegation. You have made an allegation that he has ONLY entered TAR by those two methods.**

It's this simple: when you breach an idea across to people, you have the burden of evidence. If you say, Rand is a dreamwalker, all people have to do is say "Prove it."

I'm asking for a single instance in which it is crystal clear Rand has no other means of getting into tel'aran'rhiod other than being a dreamwalker (of his own volition I would add, since him just appearing in there due to being a natural dreamwalker I don't buy until I see a quote for it). You have yet to come close to this. Every single instance of Rand entering tel'aran'rhiod can be explained by the continued torment of Rand by the Forsaken from The Eye of the World to The Shadow Raising, and Rand utlizing gateways to do so otherwise.

**As Tamyrlin said right after, you will have an extremely difficult time supporting that claim.**

As amazingly as it sounds, Tam can speak incorrectly.

**My point is that there are other ways to enter TAR than the two we have seen Rand use.**

And no one is denying that -- it's just that we've never seen Rand use them, and do not have a single instance in which one would be even close to assured to say he has.

**His rant doesnâ€™t prove how he entered TAR. We have basically seen everything he rants about already.**

What does this even mean? We've seen what he rants about already? So? Yes, we've seen Rand pulled into tel'aran'rhiod against his will by Ishamael -- that's the entire point. This has been repeatedly done in every instance where Rand has entered tel'aran'rhiod without a gateway.

**As for my question about Egwene, the significance is that she has entered TAR prior to the training device Verin gave her. I thought this was common knowledge, as seen in the quote Tamyrlin provided.**

Again, I don't see how it is. The quote Tam gave is showing that Egwene is a Dreamer, not a dreamwalker. Anaiya says the very same thing in the next few paragraphs.

**And Iâ€™m suggesting exactly what Tamyrlin just said. That touching TAR isnâ€™t a choice, just like touching saidin for an inborn channeler isnâ€™t a choice.**

You're suggestion doesn't hold water without any evidence. The Egwene quote doesn't pass for me, so unless you have a Wise One saying so, it's nothing but a supposition of your own.

**Itâ€™s not a matter of 'if' or â€˜choiceâ€™, itâ€™s a matter of 'when'. The option of â€˜by choiceâ€™ comes with training. If he is a born dreamer, it stands to reason that he will enter TAR on his own, not by choice, just like Egwene did. Just like he didnâ€™t touch saidin by choice, or â€˜his own free willâ€™ until after he learned how. He hasnâ€™t learned how to touch TAR by choice yet. That is why he didnâ€™t do it when he was captured, as you suggest he would do if he was a dreamer.**

1. Again, without any evidence this is still nothing other than your own assertion.

2. How is it that this explains why Rand didn't enter tel'aran'rhiod when he was captured? As you said, it's a time of when not if then, and Rand would have all the time in the world then. This is all assuming that Rand warding his dreams even blocks him from entering tel'aran'rhiod (yet another supposition). Rand obviously wouldn't be trained at all by doing this twice (unless you have yet another proposed incident?). So Rand would still be inexprienced, and entering whenever it called.

**You are claiming that he has only entered TAR by those two methods. Can you prove that claim?**

Yes, I can. The fact of the matter is that I don't, because it is Saidar (and by extension you, since you support this) that are proposing another way. The burden of evidence is yet again on you to prove your claim.

**What we HAVENT seen is how he has entered EVERY SINGLE TIME.

These two dreams in particular have no direct forsaken involvement, and IIRC are the only dreams that we donâ€™t see either forsaken or a gateway.**

Again, you are incorrect.

**I donâ€™t agree this is common knowledge.**

There would be no need to propose this as a theory then -- we'd all know or be believing "Hey, Rand might be a dreamwalker."

**I believe these dreams which have no direct forsaken involvement, and also have no explained entry suggest that rand has touched TAR involuntarily on his own. Nothing about these two dreams in particular proves there was forsaken involvement.**

1. That's fine for you to believe it -- it does nothing to show that it wasn't already common knowledge that Rand has only been in tel'aran'rhiod by being pulled into it or a gateway.

2. Again, we've seen this countless times before, and we have Rand's own shouts about this.

**Your 'by choice' comment is negated because I believe as a dreamer, he would touch TAR regardless of whether or not he choose to.**

A Dreamer is one that has prophectic dreams. A dreamwalker is one that enters tel'aran'rhiod at will. For example, Egwene (in the section quoted) was a Dreamer. She was taught to be a dreamwalker.

**side note: I guess I would say rand is a wilder dreamer. Perhaps he has 'blocked' himself from entering by choice due to the early forsaken involvement. But he would still touch TAR on his own a couple times. Perhaps to train him to dreamwalk, this would be a block to over come, who knows. Entering by gateway could be his trigger, just like anger was for nyn. But this is all just speculation.**

Well, at least you admit it at the very end.

**Iâ€™m not so sure the forsaken actually pull him into TAR every time. I believe it is mentioned that exceptionally strong dreams can enter and control (to some degree) another persons dream.**

But the person is still in control:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 5 - Among the Wise Ones

"No, Amys." Finding someone else's dreams was a lot harder than stepping into Tel 'aran'rhiod, the World of dreams, especially if they were any distance away. It was easier both the closer they were and the better you knew them. The Wise Ones still demanded that she not enter Tel'aran'rhiod without at least one of them along, but someone else's dream was maybe just as dangerous in its own way. In Tel'aran'rhiod she was in control of herself and of things around her to a large degree, unless one of the Wise Ones decided to take over, her command of Tel'aran'rhiod was increasing, but she still could not match any of them, with their long experience: In another's dream, though, you were a part of that dream; it took all you could muster not to behave as the dreamer wanted, be as their dream took you, and still sometimes it did not work. The Wise Ones had been very careful when watching Rand's dreams never to enter fully. Even so they insisted she learn. If they were to teach dreamwalking, they meant to teach all that they knew of it.**

**Um no she didnâ€™t. See Tamyrlin quote.

I thought this was common knowledge...**

It is common knowledge: that Egwene's first trip into tel'aran'rhiod was with the dream ter'angreal (ironically, the very same chapter in which Egwene sees Rand -- perhaps why it's called Tel'aran'rhiod?).

In Tamyrlin's quote, Egwene is showing her talent to be a Dreamer, which is not the same as being a dreamwalker.

Tamyrlin: 2006-06-30

"As amazingly as it sounds, Tam can speak incorrectly."

Liar! :)

While Dreamers have "prophetic" dreams without entering TAR proper, we know that what Egwene sees Ishamael and Lanfear, who notoriously have been haunting TAR proper, "but it had seemed so real. A nightmare for true, but real." It seemed real, because it was real. And to me, this is the proof, "Despite the mask, she had thought he was surprised to see her." He was suprised to see her, because she was there. Ishamael wouldn't have seen Egwene, unless she was touching TAR proper.

: 2006-06-30

First off, let me clarify, I'm using dreamer and dreamwalker interchangeably. I apologize for this, as it is causing some confusion. I will refrain from doing this in the future. Please read all my previous posts in calling Rand a dreamer changed to a dreamwalker.

Callandor:

â€œHow about when Rand has a series of dreams in The Eye of the World chapter 9? Such as seeing Shayol Ghul, Dragonmound, and Tar Valon? Ishamael wasn't in the dream; however, it is undoubtedly his influence here.â€

Nice try, however you are wrong. Ishy is in the dream; reread it a bit more closely.

As for his rant about tormenting dreams, thatâ€™s what it isâ€¦ nothing more. Just a rant that neither proves or disproves how he GOT to TAR in the first place.

You are using it out of context suggesting that in this instance, with NO forsaken involvement, that the rant in of itself it proof he was hooked into TAR. This is an assumption that I choose not to ascribe to.

â€œYou are incorrect in the last bit.â€

Can you prove it? The quote you refer to but donâ€™t bother to post clearly shows someone who fits Ishyâ€™s description. Also, within the same dream is a voice speaking to Rand, whos voice is it? Thus, overt on-screen forsaken involvement.

Every â€˜tormentâ€™ dream a forsaken is clearly seen as responsible.

â€œI'm asking for a single instance in which it is crystal clear Rand has no other means of getting into tel'aran'rhiod other than being a dreamwalker (of his own volition I would add, since him just appearing in there due to being a natural dreamwalker I don't buy until I see a quote for it). You have yet to come close to this. Every single instance of Rand entering tel'aran'rhiod can be explained by the continued torment of Rand by the Forsaken from The Eye of the World to The Shadow Raising, and Rand utilizing gateways to do so otherwise.â€

I'm not buying your ONLY those two methods theory Callandor, until I see quotes to back it up.

Both the Egwene dream and the Perrin dream (to me) are clearly dreams proving his talent to dreamwalk. I wonâ€™t bother quoting them yet again as they have already been posted.

As for the dream about spying, reread it again, there is no mention how he got there OR how he exited. We see him step out from a column, travel from one place within TAR to another place, and that is it. No entry, no exit. Is he there in the flesh? Probably, as suggested by his traveling within TAR rather than just manifesting himself somewhere else. (I think while in TAR by natural means ((sleeping)) you can poof from place to place by thought alone ((what is actually occurring is a brief exit of TAR and re-entry elsewhere)) but when there by unnatural means (in the flesh), you cant do this because you cant just pop out of TAR briefly to rejoin elsewhere.)

â€œWhat does this even mean? We've seen what he rants about already? So? Yes, we've seen Rand pulled into tel'aran'rhiod against his will by Ishamael -- that's the entire point. This has been repeatedly done in every instance where Rand has entered tel'aran'rhiod without a gateway.â€

This means we have seen dreams that resemble what he rants about. Weâ€™ve seen Ishy use his family against him. There are a few things that we havenâ€™t seen included in the rant, but most of it can be covered by dreams that have already been seen. It certainly is implied there are more torment dreams off camera (or page in this instance, I suppose)

No, seeing Ishmael pull him into TAR is NOT the entire point. The point is that there isnâ€™t anything NEW in this dream. And NO! This has NOT been done repeatedly in EVERY single instance. As suggested, these two dreams are NOT proven that he was hooked into TAR.

That is why this theory exists in the first place Callandor, because not every instance in TAR involves the forsaken, and not EVERY entry is explained.

Yes, the forsaken torment his dreams. Yes, they sometimes hook him into TAR. Yes, they sometimes enter his dreams. No, we donâ€™t see them in every Rand TAR experience. No, we donâ€™t see how Rand enters TAR every single time.

â€œYou're suggestion doesn't hold water without any evidence. The Egwene quote doesn't pass for me, so unless you have a Wise One saying so, it's nothing but a supposition of your own.â€

And your suggestion that he has only entered TAR by the two methods you claim doesnâ€™t hold water without any evidence.

As for the WOâ€™s, I donâ€™t consider them a great authority on TAR. What do they know? They know a few old rumors and wives tales, but they have no real skill with dreamwalking. Unless you are counting the ability to control errant thoughts? They know about need, Egwene fumbled that out on her own. They know how to locate a dream and enter it, but they donâ€™t know how to hook people. They donâ€™t have any where NEAR the skill the forsaken have. In their ignorance, how much of what they say is actually creditable? They donâ€™t know much at all.

â€œ1. Again, without any evidence this is still nothing other than your own assertion.â€

Much like your theory about gateway/hooking being the ONLY means, neh?

Just your own assertion that you refuse to back up.

â€œ2. How is it that this explains why Rand didn't enter tel'aran'rhiod when he was captured? As you said, it's a time of when not if then, and Rand would have all the time in the world then. This is all assuming that Rand warding his dreams even blocks him from entering tel'aran'rhiod (yet another supposition). Rand obviously wouldn't be trained at all by doing this twice (unless you have yet another proposed incident?). So Rand would still be inexprienced, and entering whenever it called.â€

I have yet to say I believe his wards block his dreams. I'm still on the fence on that one. It explains why he didnâ€™t while captured because HE DIDNâ€™T KNOW HOW! He couldnâ€™t â€˜chooseâ€™ to go there because he isnâ€™t sure HOW to do it voluntarily. Out of curiosity, how do you know he DIDNâ€™T touch TAR while captured (or any other time)? How do you know it doesnâ€™t call every other night? We donâ€™t see Randâ€™s dreams anymore (very often), that doesnâ€™t mean he doesnâ€™t have them.

â€œYes, I can.â€

Do it then. Prove it, or stop using it as a basis to disqualify the theory. If you donâ€™t agree, just admit that you donâ€™t agree, stop making unproven allegations that you refuse to back up.

â€œAgain, you are incorrect.â€

Do you have another tormenting dream that DOESNâ€™T involve the forsaken? The one you referred to (but didnâ€™t post) has Ishy in itâ€¦ do you have another quote (that you will actually post this time) proving forsaken torment without overt forsaken involvement?

â€œThere would be no need to propose this as a theory then -- we'd all know or be believing "Hey, Rand might be a dreamwalker."â€

Thatâ€™s the whole POINT of this theory Callandor, that it ISNT common knowledge that your theory as to ONLY those two methods. If it was common knowledge, then people such as myself, Saidar, or Tamyrlin wouldnâ€™t be supporting it. It is common knowledge to you because you refuse to think otherwise. Its common knowledge that the forsaken have tormented him in TAR, its common knowledge he has entered TAR via gateway, but it is NOT common knowledge that these are the ONLY two ways he has gotten there.

â€œ1. That's fine for you to believe it -- it does nothing to show that it wasn't already common knowledge that Rand has only been in tel'aran'rhiod by being pulled into it or a gateway.â€

Back to common knowledgeâ€¦ its NOT common knowledge. Itâ€™s a common assumption. There is a difference. We have not seen how he enters TAR every single time. There is no way to prove your allegation true.

â€œ2. Again, we've seen this countless times before, and we have Rand's own shouts about this.â€

Again, we havenâ€™t seen how he gets to TAR every single time, nor have we seen every single dream. And in the dreams we HAVE seen, not every single one of them is satisfactory defined in your two-methods theory.

Again, his rant neither proves nor disproves anything.

Come with something new Callandor, its obvious you and I will not agree on these two points and this constant repetition is getting either of us anywhereâ€¦

â€œA Dreamer is one that has prophectic dreams. A dreamwalker is one that enters tel'aran'rhiod at will. For example, Egwene (in the section quoted) was a Dreamer. She was taught to be a dreamwalker.â€

I meant dreamwalker; I was using the two terms interchangeably, sorry for the confusion.

As for her dream being prophetic, I donâ€™t agree.

***TGH chap 12 pg 180

â€œFirst there had been a man with a mask over his face, and fire in place of his eyes. Despite the mask, she had thought he was surprised to see her.â€***

So if it was merely a prophetic dream, why does he appear to see her? Why the surprise?

â€œWell, at least you admit it at the very end.â€

Yes, I admit that I was speculation about Rand being a wilder-dreamwalker. Please do not take my statement out of context and infer I'm talking about anything other than the side-note.

But to get right down to it, every single theory and every single post about a theory is pure speculation. NONE of this is fact yet (or ever in some of the theories cases)

As for your next quote about the WOâ€™sâ€¦ they can be wrong. They arenâ€™t infallible. Nor are they particularly knowledgeable (except in comparison with current 3rd agers)

â€œIt is common knowledge: that Egwene's first trip into tel'aran'rhiod was with the dream ter'angreal (ironically, the very same chapter in which Egwene sees Rand -- perhaps why it's called Tel'aran'rhiod?).

In Tamyrlin's quote, Egwene is showing her talent to be a Dreamer, which is not the same as being a dreamwalker.â€

Once again, poor word choice, apparently to you and those of your frame of mind, this is a common ASSUMPTION. I donâ€™t agree that this is a prophetic dream however. I donâ€™t agree that with the dream terâ€™angreal was her first time in TAR. Just the first time she was AWARE she was in TAR.

Callandor: 2006-07-01

**Liar! :)**

Psssssh :P

**While Dreamers have "prophetic" dreams without entering TAR proper, we know that what Egwene sees Ishamael and Lanfear, who notoriously have been haunting TAR proper, "but it had seemed so real. A nightmare for true, but real." It seemed real, because it was real. And to me, this is the proof, "Despite the mask, she had thought he was surprised to see her." He was suprised to see her, because she was there. Ishamael wouldn't have seen Egwene, unless she was touching TAR proper.**

Then why does Egwene see Ishamael "disappear" and go into another situation that is unarguably an instance of Egwene having a True Dream (unless you doubt that one as well?)?

Why does Egwene, as in the quote JWB presented, say "This is Verin's tel'aran'rhiod...." if she has already been there before? Rand Skimmed in The Eye of the World -- he remembered it as being familar when he did it again in The Shadow Rising. Rand went into tel'aran'rhiod via a gateway in The Dragon Reborn -- he remembered it as familiar when he did it again in The Fires of Heaven against Rahvin.

Why doesn't Egwene say "Hey, I've been here before!"?

JakOShadows: 2006-07-01

Tam:

I think in that quote it is hard say whether it is t'a'r or not. But either way, it doesn't change the circumstances around Rand. If he were a dreamer and had learned any skill at it, we would have seen at least one incident of it in the series. But there is not one we could definitely chalk up to him being a dreamer. So while it is possible, we have seen no evidence for it; which makes it more likely he's not a dreamer. Which is why I believe a quote to prove this is not required, since it is obviously shown through out the books.

Saidar Haran: 2006-07-01

**But we also know that Dream's do not take place in TAR. So her first Dream doesn't put her in TAR. That took place with the ter'angreal Verin gave her. That was her first vist to TAR. take a look at that quote**

Not necessarily; look at Perrin's forays into tel'aran'rhiod. While visiting, he sees "windows" that act as true dreams. I'm not saying that this is definitely what happened to Egwene, just that it is a possibility.

Tamrylin, thanks for that quote. I would agree with you that Egwene thinking Ishy was surprised supports that she was unconsciously in tel'aran'rhiod and he was suprised that she was.

jason wolfbrother: Egwene's use of the dream ter'angreal produced a different experience for her than her unconcious foray where she saw ishy because she is expecting something different. Tel'aran'rhiod is influenced by the mind, and Egwene expects something different than anything she did before, so she gets it.

Callandor: You say that the dreams I mentioned were Ishy tormenting Rand. However, it is more Ishy's style to face Rand and taunt him with his inadequacy.

Ieyasu: 2006-07-01

the anon post is mine... seems i forgot to sign in when i sent it

Callandor: 2006-07-01

**Not necessarily; look at Perrin's forays into tel'aran'rhiod. While visiting, he sees "windows" that act as true dreams. I'm not saying that this is definitely what happened to Egwene, just that it is a possibility.**

Again, the difference is as simple is that Perrin is a wolfbrother, Egwene is a Dreamer. Every single instance of Egwene's True Dreams take place in her head, like any of her normal dreams except that these are prophectic and "True." They do not take place in tel'aran'rhiod.

**jason wolfbrother: Egwene's use of the dream ter'angreal produced a different experience for her than her unconcious foray where she saw ishy because she is expecting something different. Tel'aran'rhiod is influenced by the mind, and Egwene expects something different than anything she did before, so she gets it.**

What rubbish. Tel'aran'rhiod has a distinct feel to it that anyone has to get used to. Again, Rand noticed this feeling right away when he realized he had yet again entered into tel'aran'rhiod via a gateway in The Fires of Heaven.

As well, you're basing this on the completely tenuous (I'd say bogus, but why not be generous?) claim that Egwene was in tel'aran'rhiod before, and not having a True Dream.

**Callandor: You say that the dreams I mentioned were Ishy tormenting Rand. However, it is more Ishy's style to face Rand and taunt him with his inadequacy.**

Right. Except that Ishamael in The Dragon Reborn has gotten to the point where he wants to kill Rand -- hence why every construct tries to kill Rand in some way -- as shown by his final moves in The Dragon Reborn.

As well, Ishamael doesn't always face and taunt Rand, as shown by the very first series of dreams Ishamael forces on Rand in The Eye of the World.

Tamyrlin: 2006-07-02

Callandor, most normal people don't realize they are in T'A'R while they dream, until they are killed by a nightmare there. Rand doesn't believe he is any place other than his dream, even when Ishamael pulls him into T'A'R. He believes he is having a nightmare. It doesn't stand to reason that Egwene would have known she had been there before. Obviously, when she is using the ring, she expects to go to T'A'R, which Verin has described to her. However, the idea that she would have recognized that she had been there before is "rubbish". As this quote suggest, "Tel'aran'rhiod touched them all, yet few could enter except accidentally, for unknowing moments, during their own mundane Dreams. Dangerous moments for those dreamers, though they never knew it unless they were very unlucky.", we have no reason to believe that if Egwene had touched the World of Dreams during one of her dreams and seen Ishamael and Lanfear, that she for some reason would have to realize she was anywhere but in her dream. Here is another quote that demonstrates that Egwene very well could have touched TAR long enough to see Ishamael, but not to detect that she was having anything but a nightmare: "She ignored them as she hurried by; they were not in the World of Dreams long enough to see her, or if they did they would simply think her part of their own dream."

And finally, this quote seems to suggest I am right about Wards affecting the ability to enter TAR.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 8 - The Storm Gathers

"When did he start listening to sense? I only glimpsed him. Maybe he just touched Tel'aran'rhiod in a dream." Unlikely, that. He apparently hedged his dreams with wards so strong she did not think he could reach the World of dreams any other way than in the flesh, not even if he had been a Dreamwalker and had one of the rings. "Maybe it was somebody who looked a little like him. As I said, I only saw him for a moment, in the square in front of the Tower."

It isn't definitive, but she has obvious reason to believe he could only be there in the flesh, because of his wards. She suggests that even if he were a Dreamwalker and had one of the rings, the wards would still prevent him. This provides a very plausible explanation why he no longer is seen in TAR, other than when he enters by the flesh.

Callandor: 2006-07-02

**Callandor, most normal people don't realize they are in T'A'R while they dream, until they are killed by a nightmare there. Rand doesn't believe he is any place other than his dream, even when Ishamael pulls him into T'A'R. He believes he is having a nightmare. It doesn't stand to reason that Egwene would have known she had been there before.**

Why? Again, Rand remarked upon entering tel'aran'rhiod before via a gateway:

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 55 - The Threads Burn

He wove another now. A gateway, an opening at least, a hole in reality. It was not blackness on the other side. In fact, if he had not known the way was there, if he could not have seen the weave of it, he might not have known. There before him were the same arches opening onto the same courtyard and fountain, the same columned walk. For an instant the neatly rounded holes his balefire had made in arch and column wavered, filled, then were holes again. Wherever that gateway led, it was to somewhere else, a reflection of the Royal palace as once it had been a reflection of the Stone of Tear. Vaguely he regretted not talking to Asmodean about it while he had the chance, but he had never been able to speak of that day to anyone. It did not matter. On that day he had carried Callandor, but the angreal in his pocket had already proved enough to harry Rahvin.**

So, tell me, what stands to reason more? Egwene didn't realize she was in tel'aran'rhiod, or that she was never there in the first place, but instead was having True Dreams?

**we have no reason to believe that if Egwene had touched the World of Dreams during one of her dreams and seen Ishamael and Lanfear, that she for some reason would have to realize she was anywhere but in her dream.**

Well, I'm glad to see you're starting to be doubtful that it was such an encounter.

However, you're initial claim is working against you. Why did Egwene point this out? Because it was so strange, it was so different. Why would she not remember the same different sensation, the same strangeness, when she experienced it yet again?

**Here is another quote that demonstrates that Egwene very well could have touched TAR long enough to see Ishamael, but not to detect that she was having anything but a nightmare: "She ignored them as she hurried by; they were not in the World of Dreams long enough to see her, or if they did they would simply think her part of their own dream."**

Again, Tam, your initial claim is working against you. You said Egwene was entering tel'aran'rhiod because she is a dreamwalker, and that the inherent ability was manifesting itself -- Egwene is speaking of normal people entering tel'aran'rhiod.

And I still don't see why you're clinging to this being an instance of Egwene being in tel'aran'rhiod, when you haven't said much of anything against it being one of Egwene's True Dreams (especially the Lanfear aspect of it, and the "trap" feeling Egwene gets).

**It isn't definitive, but she has obvious reason to believe he could only be there in the flesh, because of his wards.**

Yes, it's not definitive, but let's say it's true. That still does not explain away why Rand did not enter into tel'aran'rhiod when he had a perfect opprotunity to: when he was captured by Aes Sedai from the White Tower.

All the conditions are available for Rand to do this (even the one of a dangerous situation, if one is so inclined to need that), and he had plenty of time. So, why did it not occur?

TheJester: 2006-07-03

When Rand was captured by the Aes Sedai he could not ward his dreams and people are using this to dismiss his abilities as a possible Dreamwalker.

I disagree with this usage.

If he could enter Tel'aran'rhiod what would it accomplish, none of the Aes Sedai there guarding him have access to Tel'aran'rhiod, and therefore he could not affect them.

He has had no training and therefore would not be able to 'hook' any of the dreaming Aes sedai into Tel'aran'rhiod, and again this would accomplish very little. The Aes Sedai that are shielding him are awake, and if he could hook the other sleeping Aes Sedai into Tel'aron'rhiod (even if he could find all their dreams) they would eventually wake up and be shielded and remember Rand doing it and then face him, or if he bound them to Tel'aran'rhiod it still wouldn't deal with the others that are still guarding him.

Second he was shielded and his intention was to break the shield and escape, that was the information that Lews Therin was feeding him, and in this case I think he was fearful of sleeping incase he missed his chance and he wasn't well treated, I guess that disrupting sleeping patterns is an effective measure of brekaing someone that was those Aes Sedai's intentions.

For these reasons, just because he didn't enter Tel'aran'rhiod at this point does not necessarily rule out that he cannot enter at will.

Tamyrlin: 2006-07-03

Callandor, that quote confuses me. What were you demonstrating regarding Rand entering T'A'R? He was pulled into T'A'R many times, and while there, never recollects that it is a "reflection" of the Real World, even though he is in T'A'R. Plus, I don't recall him saying to himself, the first time he enters in the flesh, "oh, THIS is the place Ishamael kept bringing me".

It stands to reason that Egwene would not immediately connect a dream she had once, even prophetic, that for a moment touched T'A'R, long enough to see Ishamael, before leaving it once again.

Tell me, why is it so hard to believe Callandor, that Egwene's dreams, as a Dreamer, might have touched T'A'R, while random people touch T'A'R during their dreams all of the time, as demonstrated by the quotes in my last reply.

I'm not doubting Egwene's encounter. You are suggesting it has to have been one or the other, by how you are responding. However, we very well know she could have been having a prophetic dream, and during the same, touched T'A'R briefly. I see no problem with suggesting a mix of the two.

Egwene wouldn't have mentioned any of the same strangeness, because she wasn't in T'A'R long enough to determine that it was anything but her dream, just as those quotes I pointed to suggest.

And finally, I see no reason why Rand would at any time BELIEVE he could enter T'A'R. I have never suggested he could do so at will, nor does Egwene do so at will, until she is taught. But I have suggested that if he had either Dreaming or Dreamwalker abilities, he would eventually touch T'A'R on his own, especially since Ishamael was pulling him in so often. If Egwene wasn't taught about Dreamwalking, she would have touched T'A'R randomly, and had prophetic dreams. Even she wouldn't have been going to T'A'R at will, as you suggest Rand should be able to.

Callandor: 2006-07-03

**If he could enter Tel'aran'rhiod what would it accomplish, none of the Aes Sedai there guarding him have access to Tel'aran'rhiod, and therefore he could not affect them.**

Who cares if it would be fruitless -- what did it accomplish if Rand was entering tel'aran'rhiod is true for the given examples in The Dragon Reborn? Absolutely nothing.

The entire reason people are supposing this for, is because this was a manifestation of Rand's ability as a dreamwalker. It just happened. It didn't happen afterwards due to the wards. Fine. What about the length of time when Rand could not ward his dreams? Plenty of time for this to manifest itself again, let alone Rand just doing it by accident.

**Second he was shielded and his intention was to break the shield and escape, that was the information that Lews Therin was feeding him, and in this case I think he was fearful of sleeping incase he missed his chance and he wasn't well treated, I guess that disrupting sleeping patterns is an effective measure of brekaing someone that was those Aes Sedai's intentions.**

But again, the entire proposed mechanism was that Rand does this practically against his will in The Dragon Reborn -- it's just manifesting itself. Why would that not happen here?

The fact that it's a distressing time is irrelevant. In fact, that's even worse for this view, since it was also suggested that it was because of this distressing time in The Dragon Reborn that Rand did this.

**Plus, I don't recall him saying to himself, the first time he enters in the flesh, "oh, THIS is the place Ishamael kept bringing me".**

He had the problem of attacking Ishamael at the time. The point is that Rand knew that he was in the same place when he entered again.

Take the examples as far forward as you want. Egwene has never said that her dreams in The Great Hunt were in tel'aran'rhiod.

**It stands to reason that Egwene would not immediately connect a dream she had once, even prophetic, that for a moment touched T'A'R, long enough to see Ishamael, before leaving it once again.**

Again, go as far forward as you want then. She never has done so.

**Tell me, why is it so hard to believe Callandor, that Egwene's dreams, as a Dreamer, might have touched T'A'R, while random people touch T'A'R during their dreams all of the time, as demonstrated by the quotes in my last reply.**

Because none of her other True Dreams have touched tel'aran'rhiod in a similar way. If you find one, great, it might help you here. But so far, your asking for a one time exception and saying that this happened instead of it all being a True Dream.

**I'm not doubting Egwene's encounter.**

That "if" is very mysterious then ;)

**However, we very well know she could have been having a prophetic dream, and during the same, touched T'A'R briefly. I see no problem with suggesting a mix of the two.**

Tell me why it hasn't happened again then.

**Egwene wouldn't have mentioned any of the same strangeness, because she wasn't in T'A'R long enough to determine that it was anything but her dream, just as those quotes I pointed to suggest.**

Or it's because she never was in tel'aran'rhiod to begin with, and this was nothing but her first series of True Dreams. Which seems more simple?

**But I have suggested that if he had either Dreaming or Dreamwalker abilities, he would eventually touch T'A'R on his own, especially since Ishamael was pulling him in so often.**

Even worse then, since you have no reason to explain why it did not happen to Rand when he was captured by Aes Sedai. If it just happens, why didn't it happen when he had the perfect instance of doing so?

**If Egwene wasn't taught about Dreamwalking, she would have touched T'A'R randomly, and had prophetic dreams. Even she wouldn't have been going to T'A'R at will, as you suggest Rand should be able to.**

I'd still like to see where you are getting the notion that dreamwalkers manifest themselves in this way similar to wilders -- so far I've just been humoring you in the belief.

wolfbrother10: 2006-07-04

In regard to the wilder dreamwalkers, I don't believe that the abilities associated with dreamwalking manifest themselves in due time. We know that Egwene did experience preminitions in her dreams and that she appeared in Rand's dream when Ishy was there (I don't have a quote but I recall him teasing Rand for hiding behind the "girl" that could not protect him, in his dreams the "girl" being Egwene) but we know that Egwene was desperately searching for a way to help Rand and maybe her desperation allowed her to enter TAR through "need".

All of the tests that Anaiya put her through fueled Egwene's desire to be a dreamwalker and aid Rand somehow; through her desire Egwene opened herself up to the abilities of a dreamwalker without any training even though she did not always know that what she did was associated with dreamwalking.

It might seem out there but it is all about desire and mental states in TAR. From the very beginning we could see that Egwene possessed the mind to be an excellent dreamwalker when she met up with Amys and was able to clothe herself after Amys took of the cadin'sor she was wearing and left her naked. Even Amys was surprised and her mental strength. Maybe this is what makes Egwene different from other Dreamwalkers.

In regard to Perrin's experience in TAR he had a guide that is teaching him the ropes, Hopper. His ta'vareness might affect the other abilities that he has discovered.

Rand on the other hand finds no refuge in TAR in fact he tries to avoid any dreaming due to past experiences if he is a dreamer then he would not be exposing himself to the opportunity to gain these abilities or to allow them to manifest on their own. Like someone mentioned it would be kind of like a block for a channeler.

ThunderWalker: 2006-07-05

I am inclined to believe Rand is a Dreamwalker, however Callandor brought up a good argument against this.

While Rand was confined in the box, he was cut off from the OP. He had no ward on his dreams. Therefore, if he were a Dreamwalker, there is the possiblity that he could have accessed TAR.

I seem to remember RJ being asked why no Dreamwalkers could have discovered Rand's plight by accessing his dreams during this time. And he replied with something to the efect of -- when you try something many times, and fail, you stop trying.

It is equally possible that in addition to shielding Rand, they also warded his dreams. After all, he is a powerful channeler, and is not a happy camper. They would want to share his "nightmares" while he was confined.

But then, RJ didn't say he was when he was asked why no one peeked at Rand's dreams.

Callandor: 2006-07-05

**I seem to remember RJ being asked why no Dreamwalkers could have discovered Rand's plight by accessing his dreams during this time. And he replied with something to the efect of -- when you try something many times, and fail, you stop trying.**

Yes, Jordan said this:

**Q: Did Egwene as Amrylin happen to be watching people's dreams while Rand was shielded?

A: I'm not quite sure I understand the question. Again?

Q: Since Rand was shielded and couldn't form any Wards on his dreams could Egwene have spied out that he was in trouble while in Tel aran' rhiod?

A: Ah. Yes, she could have. The problem is, when you've learned that something is impossible, you have a tendency to stop trying it. She just didn't try to spy during the period in question.**

William Seeker: 2006-07-26

Good tehory. I'd agree with him being a Dreamwalker, but I'd also say the reason he can't do it anymore is the warding and/or a mental block. The first thing he has Aesmodean (or whatever) teach him is warding, Lanfear becomes upset about it. And he tells her its to keep everything and everyone out.

BrainFireBob: 2006-09-30

Two things:

One: Every time we KNEW Ishamael pulled Rand into Tel'aran'rhiod (indisputably) it was into a dream of Ishamael's own making- the fireplace room.

Rand's dreams are also a point of consideration for this theory- if he can dreamwalk, he may also Dream- and his dreams are interesting considered from this standpoint.

Two: Jordan makes a point of how difficult it is for Rand to learn to ward his dreams. That seems odd for such a talented channeller. There's only two possible reasons for it, to my mind. One, Lews Therin knew and used a different weave, so it's the learning a second method problem. Two, Lews Therin didn't NEED to learn to ward his dreams, so for the first time, Rand's learning a complicated weave completely on his own, and the "familiarity" he relies on for learning isn't present.

I prefer Lews Therin being a dreamwalker, myself, for a simple reason: Lews Therin, from what we know, was always the equal of the Forsaken. That's why the DO needs such outstandingly talented champions. That may even be why he picks some of those he does- he may be searching for a true "equal" to the Dragon. It would fit Jordan's MO for Rand/LTT to be a strong enough dreamwalker that Moghedian or Lanfear couldn't just toss him around- maybe not in their class, but certainly in the next tier down.

In an odd way, the acceptability of Asmodean then makes sense- the Dragon has this unusual artistic streak (LTT drew, Rand plays the flute- and apparently LTT was a music lover [knew a song well enough for Rand to play it from memory]).

Anubis: 2006-10-02

**One: Every time we KNEW Ishamael pulled Rand into Tel'aran'rhiod (indisputably) it was into a dream of Ishamael's own making- the fireplace room.**

This is so not true.

gohan: 2006-10-02

Dreamwalker has the ability to enter other people's dreams.

I believe that Rand is NOT a Dreamwalker though he can enter Tel'aran'rhiod PHYSICALLY as he had entered it when he battles Ishamael in the Stone of Tear and Rahvin in the palace in Caemlyn.

Him seeing Egwene is not a SOLID evidence that he had entered Tel'aran'rhiod in his dreams. As Egwene has assumed, she must have entered Rand's dreams. Remember that dreaming is different from entering Tel'aran'rhiod in dreams.

Perrin's Wolfdreams is somehow the same as Egwene's Dreaming, and when Egwene is Dreaming she is not actually inside Tel'aran'rhiod. If it is, then everytime Egwene enters Tel'aran'rhiod then she'll see visions. So Rand seeing Perrin cold be that Perrin has entered Rand's dreams.

vardene: 2006-10-03

**TEoTW, chap9:tellings of the wheel

**It was not the valley itself that sapped his strength and filled the empty spaces left with a helplessness.From the centre of the furoius vapors amountain thrust upward, amountain taller than any he had ever seen in the mountains of mist, a mountain so black as to be the loss of all hope.THat black stone spire, a dagger stabbing at the heavens was the source of his desolation. He had never seen it before, but he knew it. The memory of it flashed away like quicksilver when he tried to touch it, but the memory was there, he knew it was there.**

**TEoTW, chap9:tellings of the wheeel.

**serve me, avoice whispered in the stillness of his mind.A familiar voice. If he listened hard enough he was sure he would know it. serve me. He shook his head to try to get it out of his head. serve me! He shook his fist at the black mountain, "The light consume you, shai'tan"

Abruptly the smell of death lay thick around him. A figure loomed over him,in acloak the color of dried blood, a figure with a face.. He did not want to see the face that looked down at him. He did not want to think of that face. it hurt to think of it, turned his mind to embers. A hand reached toard him. Not caring if he fell over the edge, he threw himself away.**

This is the first time in the series that Rand enters the world of dreams.It occured on winternight, following the trolloc attack the revelations by moiraine. it was from Rand himself and shows ishy did not appear until until he named the DO. it is also perhaps the reason ishy began to hound him afterwards. Ishy must have known LTT was a dreamwalker in the AOL.(The memory was there though rand had never seen it before) LT was enough of a dreamwalker to keep rand from focusing directly on the memory, an act that would have taken him into Shayol Ghul.

But the point is that Rand entered T'A'R before ishy came along and had memories concerning the rules of T'A'R even from the beginning. Memories that clearly must be LTs since he does not recognise them

Anubis: 2006-10-04

**serve me, avoice whispered in the stillness of his mind.A familiar voice. If he listened hard enough he was sure he would know it. serve me. He shook his head to try to get it out of his head. serve me! He shook his fist at the black mountain, "The light consume you, shai'tan**

**This is the first time in the series that Rand enters the world of dreams.It occured on winternight, following the trolloc attack the revelations by moiraine. it was from Rand himself and shows ishy did not appear until until he named the DO.**

Ishamael did not appear until Rand named the Dark One, but Ishamael was in the dream before then, unless you believe that the "familiar voice" telling Rand to "serve me" was the wind.

So, there has yet to be found an instance of Rand being in TAR, not in the flesh, without the influence of one of the Forsaken.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-04

***But the point is that Rand entered T'A'R before ishy came along and had memories concerning the rules of T'A'R even from the beginning. Memories that clearly must be LTs since he does not recognise them***

Yes, but how do we know that Ishmael didn't transport him there either. The shadow knew enough to send trollocs to the exact three house Mat, Perrin, and Rand were in. I'm not saying that Ishmael is guaranteed everytime to have brought Rand in, but until you can show that he willing and consciously went in to t'a'r, you have no proof that he is a dreamwalker or dreamer. You got show more than, "hey, Ishmael wasn't seen in his dream, so it was Rand's doing."

BrainFireBob: 2006-10-05

**One: Every time we KNEW Ishamael pulled Rand into Tel'aran'rhiod (indisputably) it was into a dream of Ishamael's own making- the fireplace room.**

This is so not true.

Well, Anubis, give me an example we know it was Ishy's doing Rand entered Tel'aran'rhiod that it WASN'T into a dream of Ishamael's making.

vardene: 2006-10-05

oops! the last bit of that post came out pretty disjointed. Apologies. The point i was making was that Rand entered T'A'R b4 ishy came along and even knew rules and places he had never beeen to or heard of. All possible only if LTT was a dreamwalker and the ability has passed onto rand.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-05

Brainfirebob:

We have seen dreams that Ishmael created which were not the fireplace setting either. Remember in the chapters when Egwene and Perrin see Rand in t'a'r. It is obvious he had to have dealt with it a lot before, and why would he even have dreams about that? So that leads to believe that it was Ishy's doing. Again, I have no proof, but we have seen him do it before and it seems like his method of choice for the first three books. Not to mention they stop after Rand kills Ishy. So in my opinion, it is not likely the only dreams that Ishmael controlled were the ones with the fireplace. But it is the only one in which we as the reader directly see Ishy in, so you are technically right in that aspect.

Darkshadow: 2006-10-06

But back in TSH, Egwene is taught to look for the Wise Ones dreams, but she pouts about how come DISTANCE and location of certain dreams are not related. So even if once knew where the wise ones sleep every night (as Egwene should know, cuz she studies with them every night) you still had to methodically search for them in a different method.

Also, it seems that one would need to know more information about the person they're searching for in the space between T'A'R'(sorry forgot wat its actually called). Ishy would have only known that ONE OF THE THREE YOUTHS was the Dragon, but couldnt have known where their dreams where, since he didnt know anything about them... unless he searched every villagers mind and we would have heard about villagers complaining about bad dreams (all of Tear was complaining when Be'lal was in control, so in the case of Isy, the same should hold true). I believe this still puts "Rand is a Dreamwalker" back on the table

Ieyasu: 2006-10-07

Anubis:

**So, there has yet to be found an instance of Rand being in TAR, not in the flesh, without the influence of one of the Forsaken.**

reread my earlier posts... i pointed out two such dreams without any apparent influence of forsaken

JakOShadows: 2006-10-07

Dark Shadow:

Ishmael can also sense ta'veren to some degree so he could be using that. But even if he didn't have to use it at all, he could still do it in book 3 because Rand, Mat and Perrin traveled through villages, etc. in the previous books as well. And plus, while it has nothing to do with location, if you learn the persons dream well enough it can always be found. That's what Egwene was learning in the passage where you got the quote from. So that is not the final nail in the coffin buddy.

Anubis: 2006-10-08

**reread my earlier posts... i pointed out two such dreams without any apparent influence of forsaken**

Don't see any.

BrainFireBob: 2006-10-08

Jak-

I disagree. Ishy could have easily been staging those attacks by manipulating tel'aran'rhiod, which Rand could have entered via nascent dreamwalking ability.Hence my point still stand.

vardene: 2006-10-09

jakoshadows,

**Yes but we dont know ishy didnt transport him there either.**

you dont have evidence that ishy brought him to T'A'R. He entered T'A'R after the trolloc attack on winternight and the subsequent declaration by moiraine that the shadow was hunting him and the others. He was frightened and searching when he went to sleeep. He sleeps then immmediately steps into a dream of S.Ghul. also,

**TEoTW, chap 12:flight down the arinelle

**"A dream!Rand shouted.This is a dream!" Baalzamon's eyes began to widen, in surprise or anger or both, then he shimmmered, and his features blurred, and faded.**

**TSR chap 11:what lies hidden

**...You surprised me, pulling free as you did,turning my own spear on me.But you are still untaught, however strong"**

Both the wise ones and Moggy say you have to be strong to escape another dreamwalker's weaving of T'A'R. that rand escaped ishy's attempt to hold him makes him not just a dreamwalker, but a strong one as well. That is, if the memories aren't enough for you. sheesh.

BigBlade: 2006-10-09

I dont believe that Rand is a dream walker. If he is does that mean that LTT must have been one also? Also if Rand were a dreamwalker I think RJ would have expanded on it by now, or it would have come out earlier in the books. Rand becoming a dreamwalker just wouldn't change the books all that much this far on in the story. Rand has shown that if he needs to get into T'A'R then he would just go in the flesh regardless the consequences.

timmooo: 2006-10-09

You are right. It is clear that rand is a dreamwalker though i doubt he will ever be trained as there is no-one to train him. Ever since rand started warding his dreams no one has been able to acess them. I believe that this also works the other way around and that it prevent rand from leaving his dreams, so the chance of him training himself is very small unless egwene finds out.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-10

Brainfirebob:

If all you can say, it is possible your way happened, then you can't prove it. And since the assumption has always been that Rand isn't a dreamwalker, we have to go with that until the is solid evidence. Just saying your theory is possible, with out any prior accounts or evidence does not make a proven theory. You have to go with the logical and provable, not the possible.

Vardene:

***Both the wise ones and Moggy say you have to be strong to escape another dreamwalker's weaving of T'A'R. that rand escaped ishy's attempt to hold him makes him not just a dreamwalker, but a strong one as well. That is, if the memories aren't enough for you. sheesh.***

You know what else could have happened. That he has never been a dreamwalker at all, and accidently stumbled onto how to do it. To be a dreamwalker, don't you have to be able to naturally bring yourself into t'a'r. So just because he made Ishy disappear does not make him a true dreamwalker. It just means he can weave a gateway in and learn how to manipulate the properties of t'a'r *like* a dreamwalker. It doesn't mean he is one. I'll look up the definition to be sure, but I'm pretty confident that that is the definition of a dreamwalker.

Sampson: 2006-10-10

Even if Rand has the potential to be a dream walker, why? Like it has been stated, ever since he learned to ward his dreams, he doesnâ€™t have any reason to explore or expand that talent. If he wants to go into to TAR then he will weave a gateway and step in.

BigBlade: 2006-10-10

Okay. When Mat blows the horn LTT says that he has met Rand before and calls him Lewis Therin. Meaning that the Dragon is a Hero of the horn, because he must always be reborn. While he is waiting to be reborn does he then wait in T'A'R like the other people waiting to be reborn? If he does that mean that he is there in the flesh or has some special connection to T'A'R?

Anubis: 2006-10-11

**

Both the wise ones and Moggy say you have to be strong to escape another dreamwalker's weaving of T'A'R. that rand escaped ishy's attempt to hold him makes him not just a dreamwalker, but a strong one as well. That is, if the memories aren't enough for you. sheesh.**

Read your quote before you submit it and tell me what it means. You say that the Dreamwalkers claim you need to be "strong" to break out of someones clutches in TAR. Do they say a "strong dreamwalker" or just "strong".

If it is just "strong" then go away. You have no point.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-12

Bigblade:

That might be true if he were dead, but right now the dragon's soul is in the body, so it wouldn't have much affect now. It would just mean when Rand died, he would then be linked to the horn and t'a'r.

BrainFireBob: 2006-10-13

If all you can say, it is possible your way happened, then you can't prove it. And since the assumption has always been that Rand isn't a dreamwalker, we have to go with that until the is solid evidence. Just saying your theory is possible, with out any prior accounts or evidence does not make a proven theory. You have to go with the logical and provable, not the possible.

Jak- you TRYING to be patronizing?

This is on of the most inane responses I've ever seen- you totally missed my point.

I was opposing the argument that "Ishy brought Rand into tel'aran'rhiod every time he went there"- we don't know that, that's an unfounded assumption. The other alternative is just as likely- more, from my POV, since not only is there Egwene's RJ-style teaser about how Rand's dreams are warded so strongly he couldn't reach tel'aran'rhiod with the gift now, but Rand's independence and control of himself in dreams not his own were impressive.

Besides, the context of the War of Power, with LTT unable to defend himself dream-wise, isn't terribly tenable.

vardene: 2006-10-14

anubis,

the wise ones used the term "strong in the dream".moggy made a similar reference.

jako,

you need to offer prooof that rand is not a dreamwalker, not just trying to outpost the opposition. i dont have the books here, but verin told egwene in book 3 about the things that make one a dreamwalker and this includes dreams that predict the future and ability to manipulate the world of dreams both of which rand has.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-15

Allright guys, I will try and find some evidence proves my point more, but I still think that ya'll are the ones coming up with the new idea, you should have more evidence too. You claim I am being unreasonable, but I am merely showing that what we as the reader have always believed can still be true. So therefore, that is the best answer so far, and will take more evidence to change belief. And I am not the only I have heard say this. Callandor also says this a lot too. I don't think its unreasonable at all.

And as to how LTT survived in the War of Power, he could have just warded his dreams like he does now. You aren't saying you have to be dreamwalker to do that too, are you?

Callandor: 2006-10-15

**While he is waiting to be reborn does he then wait in T'A'R like the other people waiting to be reborn? If he does that mean that he is there in the flesh or has some special connection to T'A'R?**

When Heroes are dead, they await rebirth in tel'aran'rhiod. Only they and wolves do this. The only special connection with this is that the Dragon soul is a Hero of the Horn. He's not there in the flesh -- again, only select souls that are awaiting rebirth (IE: dead, they have no bodies) are in tel'aran'rhiod.

**I was opposing the argument that "Ishy brought Rand into tel'aran'rhiod every time he went there"- we don't know that, that's an unfounded assumption.**

Unfounded? Really? The multiple examples of Rand and Ishamael having their confrontations in tel'aran'rhiod, obviously against Rand's will are just nothing to you? There has been much evidence given that Rand was only in tel'aran'rhiod when it was by the control of someone else bringing him there -- namely Ishamael and Lanfear. Other than that, he had to use a gateway to enter it, which he clearly did not do until the end of The Dragon Reborn, and we know all other instances of him doing so.

**Besides, the context of the War of Power, with LTT unable to defend himself dream-wise, isn't terribly tenable.**

Where is that stated or even assumed? Whether Rand is a dreamwalker or not (which he is not), no one here is doubting that Rand is somehow unable to defend his dreams. We know from numerous examples he's capable of doing just that -- because he wards his dreams. Being a channeler and protecting your dreams is not related to being a dreamwalker. Just look at how Egwene's dreams are so unprotected due to Aran'gar from The Path of Daggers to Crossroads.

**you need to offer prooof that rand is not a dreamwalker, not just trying to outpost the opposition. i dont have the books here, but verin told egwene in book 3 about the things that make one a dreamwalker and this includes dreams that predict the future and ability to manipulate the world of dreams both of which rand has.**

1. Ability to predict the future makes one a Dreamer, not a dreamwalker. There's quite a difference between the two. And I'd like to really see anyone show how Rand has had any type of dreams that predict the future.

2. Again, where is this said by Verin? She's talking about what makes a Dreamer, not a dreamwalker. The closest thing to this is that she says a true Dreamer can enter tel'aran'rhiod.

3. If people insist on putting out any other silly notions of what is needed to prove a claim, it's quite simple. You make a claim, and if it's contested, you have to give evidence for it. The claim here is: Rand is a dreamwalker. There has been numerous examples and evidence given to show why this is not so based on the "evidence" given in the original post. So, if you insist on saying that Rand is Dreamwalker, the burden of evidence is on YOU. You provide evidence for your claims. People who don't believe that claim do not have to provide evidence to disprove all claims in the world.

So, enough people. JakO is saying the exactly correct thing.

vardene: 2006-10-16

anubis again, if the W.O. say "strong", strong in what? what does brawn have to do with T'A'R?

For J-o-s, rand is using abilities of the dragon, and these will include LT's ability to dreamwalk and memories of such.One does not have to be aware of abilities to use them. i dont know all the workings of this pc but i'm using it. and rand noticed this in the battle with ishy in the stone. after ishy's death, he did have dreams that indicated that ely and min would love him but egwene would turn away.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-16

***For J-o-s, rand is using abilities of the dragon, and these will include LT's ability to dreamwalk and memories of such.One does not have to be aware of abilities to use them. i dont know all the workings of this pc but i'm using it. and rand noticed this in the battle with ishy in the stone. after ishy's death, he did have dreams that indicated that ely and min would love him but egwene would turn away.***

First of all, how do we know LTT is a dreamwalker. I didn't think there was anywhere in the books that it has been stated that he was, but if you can give me a quote then I'll believe you. As for the fight with Ishy in the stone, of course he used the properties of t'a'r then, but to be a dreamwalker a person has to be able to go there on their own. And in that case, I'm pretty sure he used a gateway. And when Rand is dreaming about Min and Elayne, doesn't he already know that they will fall in love with him, and vice versa. And another thing about that vision that makes me think it isn't foretelling, is the fact Aviendha isn't in the dream. And if it were a foretelling about that topic, why not see the third person when the other two are already being shown.

On one side not here, it seems like as more people support the theory, they forget the basic rules of being a dreamer and/or dreamwalker.

A dreamwalker can go into t'a'r at will and also see other peoples dreams as well if they are strong enough. A dreamer, while in t'a'r, can sometimes see visions of what might happen in the future. A dreamer is a dreamwalker as well, but a dreamwalker is necessarily and dreamer. If a person makes a gateway, etc to get into t'a'r are, then even if they aren't dreamwalkers they can still manipulate its properties(like the Salidar AS). If any of ya'll don't agree with my definition, maybe that's where we need to start from. Because it is essential in determining whether Rand is a dreamwalker.

Anubis: 2006-10-17

**anubis again, if the W.O. say "strong", strong in what? what does brawn have to do with T'A'R?**

My two guesses are strong willed and idiot.

vardene: 2006-10-21

J-o-s, i already quoted rand's first trip into T'A'R. consider:

1, it happened immediately after the trolloc attack.

2, Moiraine had just told him he and his friends were the targets of the shadow but without any idea why.

3, He was frightened and exhausted.

The moment he slept he found himself in the world of dreams(w.o.d.) running and afraid just the way his mind had been in the waking world.

Next he is drawn towards the source of his problems: shayol ghul. If ishy had drawn him in, he would have brought him directly to wherever he(ishy) was rather than running around until he shouted shaitan before he saw ishy's face.

Finally, are you saying that a non dreamwalker could escape the weaving of a dreamwalker in T'A'R?

JakOShadows: 2006-10-22

vardene:

***Finally, are you saying that a non dreamwalker could escape the weaving of a dreamwalker in T'A'R?***

Yes, I believe it is possible. Not everyone can do it, but it is possible. And if you think about, LTT might have even used t'a'r some with a ter'angreal like the salidar AS used. That would still mean he is not a dreamwalker. So LTT could still know how to use t'a'r, without naturally having the talent, and hence Rand could rely on that skill from a past life. And it would still mean neither Rand or LTT were dreamwalkers. Ya'll assume that because he accidently did something in t'a'r that he is dreamwalker, and I think it takes more solid evidence than a random occurance.

vardene: 2006-10-23

jakoshadows,

you claim "ACCIDENTS". he got into T'A'R by accident then defeated ishy by accident?

W.H. chap22, out of thin air.

***The ephemeral always changed here, and he barely noticed anymore. He could not use tel'alan'rhoid the way the chosen could, but here was where he felt the most free. here he could be who he wanted to be. he chukcled at the thought.**

JakOShadows: 2006-10-23

vardene:

I was saying that Ishmael brought him there, then he made him disapear by accident. Not everything is accident, but right now we can not prove that Ishy did not guide him in his dreams and that Rand needed to be dreamwalker to make him disappear. Until you can prove that, I won't believe you. I'm not saying that everything is a freak accident, but that if you can't prove that he had to be a dreamwalker to do it, then you can't claim he is a dreamwalker.

vardene: 2006-10-27

how about this for more proof?

***TSR CHAP50; Traps.***

***tired as he was, he could not help tossing and thinking. what did melaine mean to say? why did the wise ones not care that he knew Aviendha was their spy?Aviendha. A pretty woman, if surlier than a mule with four stone bruised hooves.His breathing slowed, his thoughts became misty. A month. Too long, no choice. Honor. Isendre smiling.kadere watching. trap. whose trap? which trap? Traps. If only he could trust moiraaine.Perrin. home perrin was probably swimming in..

Eyes closed, Rand stroked through the water.Nicely cool. And so wet. it seemed he had never realized how good wet felt.***

Callandor: 2006-10-27

**how about this for more proof?**

Of...?

Rand, like anyone else, has normal dreams.

JakOShadows: 2006-10-28

vardene:

I'm not saying it is impossible. That quote there makes it seem entirely possible, but what about that dreams proves without a doubt that he is a dreamer or a dreamwalker. That vision makes it likely he is a dreamer, but then how come we haven't seen more prophetic visions. You don't have to be in t'a'r to see those, so the warding of his dreams wouldn't affect it either. That's a good piece of evidence, but doesn't prove that Rand is a dreamwalker or a dreamer.

KaetySedai: 2006-10-29

It is a good theory but I've read alot on it and it most likely seems that someone pulls him into TAR each time. Some seem like they don't, for me I don't know. But in tEotW its most likely that a Forsaken pulls him in. Ex: Ishy, Be'lal, Lanfear. Maybe when Egwene saw him in TAR she wasn't trained enough to know that she was pulling him into TAR.

Anubis: 2006-10-29

**you claim "ACCIDENTS". he got into T'A'R by accident then defeated ishy by accident?**

No, he got in by gateway, which you failed to mention.

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BrainFireBob: 2006-11-21

Only one part of that am I replying to, Callandor- Rand's in tel'aran'rhiod plenty of times in tDR- Perrin and Egwene both find him there by need, and Perrin, at least, has no demonstrated ability to tap into the dreams of others.

We've no evidence Ishy's there.

101

Callandor: 2006-11-21

**Only one part of that am I replying to, Callandor- Rand's in tel'aran'rhiod plenty of times in tDR- Perrin and Egwene both find him there by need, and Perrin, at least, has no demonstrated ability to tap into the dreams of others.

We've no evidence Ishy's there.**

Yeah, sure....

I'll just quote myself:

**Unfounded? Really? The multiple examples of Rand and Ishamael having their confrontations in tel'aran'rhiod, obviously against Rand's will are just nothing to you? There has been much evidence given that Rand was only in tel'aran'rhiod when it was by the control of someone else bringing him there -- namely Ishamael and Lanfear. Other than that, he had to use a gateway to enter it, which he clearly did not do until the end of The Dragon Reborn, and we know all other instances of him doing so.**

102

JakOShadows: 2006-11-21

Brainfirebob:

We also don't see his pov very much in tDR either. So that means we don't know for sure whether he consciously entered t'a'r or if someone pulled him in. Until you can show that it wasn't Ishy, it isn't proof. Because we have seen before that he liked to guide Rand using t'a'r and know that he was planning something for him at Tear. So you'll have to first disprove conventional belief.

103

vardene: 2006-11-23

anubis, a dreamwalker that hasn't been trained. he pops into it and is unaware of possibilities and propereties. he had dreams of ely, avi and min loving him before it happened but never considered it prophetic, he just isnt trained. he may have had more, but he'll either forget(which egwene had to learn) or think them normal dreams and nightmares.

104

JakOShadows: 2006-11-26

vardene:

You have a point there, but to say that he is an untrained dreamwalker and just doesn't remember his dreams is not proof. You have to show that he has done it repeatedly.

105

Anubis: 2006-11-26

**He could not seem to stop playing that one tune. It made him think of Egwene. He had thought once that he would marry Egwene. A long time ago, that seemed. That was gone, now. She had come in his dreams, though. It might have been her. Her face. It was her face.

Only, there had been so many faces, faces he knew. Tam, and his mother, and Mat, and Perrin. All trying to kill him. It had not really been them, of course. Only their faces, on Shadowspawn. He thought it had not really been them. Even in his dreams it seemed the Shadowspawn walked. Were they only dreams? Some dreams were real, he knew. And others were only dreams, nightmares, or hopes. But how to tell the difference?

Min had walked his dreams one night - and tried to plant a knife in his back. He was still surprised at how much that had pained him. He had been careless, let her come close, let down his guard. Around Min, he had not felt any need to be on his guard in so long, despite the things she saw when she looked at him. Being with her had been like having balm soothed into his wounds.**

Yes, there is nothing at all to suggest that Ishamael was involved in Rand being in TAR in TDR. Nothing at all.

**Only, there had been so many faces, faces he knew. Tam, and his mother, and Mat, and Perrin. All trying to kill him. It had not really been them, of course. Only their faces, on Shadowspawn.**

Again, so we are clear. Nothing at all.

106

Dragons Shadow: 2006-12-04

Maybe I'm wrong, but I always assumed that the "rare" male dreamwalkers became wolfbrothers. We never hear of a "Wolfsister" we only are told of men. Dreaming(or having true dreams) is a thing of the Power, however dreamwalking is the ability to enter The World of Dreams, and as we know wolfbrothers have that ability, they are simply not trained in the full range of their abilities

107

Callandor: 2006-12-05

**Maybe I'm wrong, but I always assumed that the "rare" male dreamwalkers became wolfbrothers. We never hear of a "Wolfsister" we only are told of men.**

Jordan has said that there are wolfbrothers as well as wolfsisters. To the best of our knowledge (limited here) it goes like this: wolfbrothers are dreamwalkers, but not all male dreamwalkers are wolfbrothers.

**Dreaming(or having true dreams) is a thing of the Power, however dreamwalking is the ability to enter The World of Dreams, and as we know wolfbrothers have that ability, they are simply not trained in the full range of their abilities**

Dreaming is not connected with the ability to channel, nor is dreamwalking as you mentioned:

**TITLE: Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes

Firmly she made herself step back to her sleeping body, but not to ordinary sleep. She never did that anymore. That one corner of her brain remained fully aware, cataloging her dreams, filing away those that foretold the future, or at any rate gave glimpses of the possible course it might take. At least she could tell that much now, though the only one she had been able to interpret so far was the dream that told of Gawyn becoming her Warder. Aes Sedai called this Dreaming, and the women who could do it Dreamers, all long dead but her, yet it had no more to do with the One Power than dreamwalking did.**

108

Dragons Shadow: 2006-12-09

Thank You Callandor.

I realized that the part about true dreams was wrong when I re-read TDR this week.

**As he peered at this rough land, a circle of darkness suddenly blanked out a part of the mountains; he could not have said whether the darkness was right in front of his face or halfway to the mountains, but he seemed to be seeing through it, and beyond. Mat, rattling a dice cup. His opponent stared at Mat with eyes of fire. Mat did not seem to see the man, but Perrin knew him.

â€œMat!â€ he shouted. â€œItâ€™s Baâ€™alzamon! Light, Mat, youâ€™re dicing with Baâ€™alzamon!â€

Mat made his toss, and as the dice spun, the vision faded, and the dark place was dry mountains again.

â€œHopper!â€ Perrin turned slowly, looking in every direction. He even looked up in the skyâ€”He can fly, nowâ€”where clouds promised a rain the ground far below the spire top would drink up as soon as it fell. â€œHopper!â€

A darkness formed among the clouds, a hole into somewhere else. Egwene and Nynaeve and Elayne stood looking at a huge metal cage, with a raised door held on a heavy spring. They stepped in and reached up together to loose the catch. The barred door snapped down behind them. A woman with her hair all in braids laughed at them, and another woman all in white laughed at her. The hole in the sky closed, and there were only clouds.**

This shows that the true dreams are not limited to Power users, Perrin has them as well.

However, I also came across this quote:

**So many faces in his dreams. Selene had come, cool and mysterious and so lovely his mouth went dry just thinking of her, offering him glory as she hadâ€”so long ago, it seemedâ€”but now it was the sword she said he had to take. And with the sword would come her. Callandor. That was always in his dreams. Always. And taunting faces. HANDS, PUSHING EGWENE, AND NYNAEVE, AND ELAYNE INTO CAGES, SNARING THEM IN NETS, HURTING THEM. Why should he weep more for Elayne than for the other two?** (emphasis mine)

This quote shows the same kind of true dreams as are seen with Egwene and Perrin. Remember that the girls are about to be captured and tortured by the Black Ajah who are working for Be'lal. Be'lal was known as the netweaver if memory serves. They will also be locked in a cell in the stone. Thus fulfilling the images in rand's dream of the "hands" capturing, netting, and hurting the three girls.

I can only conclude that Rand does have some latent talent as a Dreamer/dreamwalker. However, Rand himself is convinced that his dreams are caused by Forsaken and avoids them for the rest of the series. He shows no inclination to learn and no indication that he thinks he can.

109

Callandor: 2006-12-10

**This quote shows the same kind of true dreams as are seen with Egwene and Perrin. Remember that the girls are about to be captured and tortured by the Black Ajah who are working for Be'lal. Be'lal was known as the netweaver if memory serves. They will also be locked in a cell in the stone. Thus fulfilling the images in rand's dream of the "hands" capturing, netting, and hurting the three girls.

I can only conclude that Rand does have some latent talent as a Dreamer/dreamwalker. However, Rand himself is convinced that his dreams are caused by Forsaken and avoids them for the rest of the series. He shows no inclination to learn and no indication that he thinks he can.**

This is explained just by what Rand says: Selene, aka Lanfear. She's in on the plot with Be'lal -- she's the one that sent Nynaeve, Elayne, and Min to the Black Ajah material that lead them to go to Tear, where Be'lal was. She's already shown compunction before and does again that Rand's dreams -- and anyone's truly -- she considers her's.

110

Anubis: 2007-01-12

**HANDS, PUSHING EGWENE, AND NYNAEVE, AND ELAYNE INTO CAGES, SNARING THEM IN NETS, HURTING THEM.**

This is the only thing which even comes close to suggesting Rand could be a dreamwalker and still it is tainted by possible Lanfear influence.

111

vardene: 2007-01-15

i noticed that rand's entry into t'a'r in EoTW and TSR were preceded by thots of his destination before he slept. in TSR, he specifically thought of swimming and ended in a pool with his favourite women. In EtOW, he thinks of the shadow in EF and ends up in shayol ghul, running. It seems to me he stepped from thought to T'A'R-the characteristic of dreamers. Its unlikely lanfear would have brought him into a dream with her rivals, she has already shown her jealousy cant take this but more importantly, she must have tampered with his thoughts if she brought him into T'A'R. If the forsaken could touch his thoughts, he'd have been turned to the shadow long since.

112

Davian93: 2007-01-15

**** i noticed that rand's entry into t'a'r in EoTW and TSR were preceded by thots of his destination before he slept. in TSR, he specifically thought of swimming and ended in a pool with his favourite women. In EtOW, he thinks of the shadow in EF and ends up in shayol ghul, running. It seems to me he stepped from thought to T'A'R-the characteristic of dreamers. Its unlikely lanfear would have brought him into a dream with her rivals, she has already shown her jealousy cant take this but more importantly, she must have tampered with his thoughts if she brought him into T'A'R.****

The dreams in tEotW were all caused by Ishy, (as seen by all 3 boys having the same dreams). As for Rand's dreams of the pool in TSR, those took place in his own dreams which Lanfear manipulated or was observing and then pulled him into a dream of her creation. The WO's speak of this technique of drawing someone into a dream as evil and its very likely something Lanfear did on a routine basis.

113

vardene: 2007-01-19

***The dreams in tEotW were all caused by Ishy, (as seen by all 3 boys having the same dreams).***

we dont know that. we saw rand's dreams were different from mat's since he came back with a splinter in his hand. we dont know just how different their dreams were. Perrrin is a dreamwalker yet he had those dreams with ishy in it. Ishy's presence isn't proof against the theory.

*** As for Rand's dreams of the pool in TSR, those took place in his own dreams which Lanfear manipulated or was observing and then pulled him into a dream of her creation. The WO's speak of this technique of drawing someone into a dream as evil and its very likely something Lanfear did on a routine basis.***

Again there's no proof that lanfear manipulated or was able to manipulate rand's dreams. Asmodean also showed up which lanfear certainly didn't want or intend. she couldn't have been the one weaving the dream. it has to be someone outside of the two, and rand did think of swimming before he slept much similar to egwene's early jaunts into the WoDreams.

114

eyeless: 2007-01-19

the difference between rand and egwene is egwene can knowingly navigate it and goes from dream to dream. (i.e. meeting rand then later meeting perrin in the same night) if rand was a dreamwalker rand would experence the dreams more often in the books.

115

greatwolf: 2007-02-11

In TGH, verin 1st stumbled on egwene's talent when claimed rand was in danger. later in the same book, rand was aware of the danger egwene, elyane and nynaeve were in, though he was nowhere near them. he was also aware of the link of this danger to himself.

He may very well be a dreamwalker, or LT may have been. Rand seems to have a bar in channeling, he may have the same concerning dreaming especially as he hasn't been trained.

116

Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-22

greatwolf:
*** In TGH, verin 1st stumbled on egwene's talent when claimed rand was in danger. later in the same book, rand was aware of the danger egwene, elyane and nynaeve were in, though he was nowhere near them. he was also aware of the link of this danger to himself. ***

When Egwene dreamed that Rand was in danger, that was her Talent of Dreaming coming through. Egwene later was trained as a Dreamwalker by the Wise Ones and she is trying to hone her Dreaming Talent. Dreaming and Dreamwalking are different skills, though, as RJ has indicated.

From the wotmania FAQ:
-----
On Dreamers, Dreamwalkers and prophetic dreams he said that the ability to interpret one's dreams, enter Tel'aran'rhiod and meddle with other people's dreams were different Talents.
----

*** He may very well be a dreamwalker, or LT may have been. Rand seems to have a bar in channeling, he may have the same concerning dreaming especially as he hasn't been trained. ***

I'm not sure what you mean that Rand has a "bar in channeling." Do you mean a block like Nynaeve had? I don't think that Rand has experienced any such thing. Sure, there were things that he didn't know how to do early on, but he's had training from Asmodean and he also has memories from Lews Therin.

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greatwolf: 2007-02-24

Marie curie7,

In Kod, rand seemed unable to channel at the stone without seeing it, also a case in TPoD. Thatâ€™s what I referred to.

118

Marie Curie 7: 2007-03-02

greatwolf:
In Kod, rand seemed unable to channel at the stone without seeing it, also a case in TPoD. That's what I referred to.

I believe this is the scene you're referring to in KoD:

-----
TITLE: Knife of Dreams, CHAPTER: 21 - Within the Stone

Keeping his eyes on the windows -- being able to see the Stone was a necessity, and seeing open air between the Dragon and the Stone, the open air above, loosened his breathing a little. Just a little -- keeping his eyes fixed on the sky above the Stone, he ordered everyone to stand against the walls. They obeyed with speed. Well, Cadsuane gave him a sharp look before gliding to the wall, and Nynaeve sniffed before flouncing over, but the rest moved quickly. If they thought he wanted space for safety's sake, in a way he did. Having them out of his line of sight made the room seem a little larger. Only a little, yet every inch was a blessed relief. The bond was filled with concern.

Must get out. Lews Therin moaned. Have to get out.
Stiffening himself against what he knew would come, watchful of any attempt by Lews Therin, Rand seized the male half of the True Source, and saidin flooded into him. Had the madman tried to seize it first? He had brushed it, certainly, touched it, but it was Rand's. Mountains of flame collapsing in fiery avalanches tried to scour him away. Waves chat made ice seem warm tried to crush him in raging seas. He gloried in it, suddenly so alive it seemed he had been sleepwalking before. He could hear the breath of everyone in the room, could see that great banner atop the Stone so clearly he almost thought he could make out the weave of the fabric. The double wound in his side throbbed as if trying to rip itself out of his body, but with the Power filling him, he could ignore that pain. He thought he could have ignored a sword thrust.

Yet with saidin came the inevitable violent nausea, the almost overwhelming desire to double over and empty himself of every meal he had ever eaten. His knees trembled with it. He fought that as hard as he fought the Power, and saidin had to be fought ever and always. A man forced saidin to his will, or it destroyed him. The face of the man from Shadar Logoth floated in his head for a moment. He looked furious. And near to sicking up. Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction, and they would touch. No more than a hair.

"What's the matter?" Nynaeve demanded, moving close and peering up at him in concern. "Your face has gone all gray." She reached for his head, and his skin popped out in goose bumps.
He brushed her hands away. "I'm all right. Stand clear." She stood there giving him one of those looks women carried in their belt pouches. This one said she knew he was lying even if she could not prove it. Did they practice those looks in front of mirrors? "Stand clear, Nynaeve."
"He's all right, Nynaeve," Min said, though her face had a touch of gray about it, too, and she had both red-gloved hands pressed to her middle. She knew.
Nynaeve sniffed at him, wrinkling her nose in disdain, but she finally moved out of his way. Maybe Lan had had enough and run away. No, not that. Lan would not leave her unless she told him to, and then only for as long as was needful. Wherever he was, Nynaeve knew and likely had sent him there for reasons of her own. Aes Sedai and their bloody secrets.

He channeled, Spirit touched with Fire, and the familiar vertical silvery slash appeared at the foot of the bed, seemed to rotate into a dim view of massive columns in darkness. Light from the inn room gave all the illumination. The opening, standing inches above the floor, was no larger than the door to the room, yet as soon as it was fully open, three of the Maidens, already veiled, darted through pulling spears free, and Rand's skin pebbled again as Alivia leaped after them. Protecting him was a self-imposed duty, but one she took as seriously as the Maidens did.

There would be no ambush here, though, no dangers, so he stepped through, and down. At the other end, the gateway sat more than a foot above the huge gray slabs of stone that he had not wanted to damage any more than he already had. This was the Heart of the Stone, and with the Power in him, and the light spilling through the gateway from the room in The Dragon, he could see the narrow hole in one of those stones where he had driven Callandor into the floor. Who draws it out shall follow after. He had thought long and hard before sending Narishma to bring Callandor to him. However the Prophecies meant the man was to follow him, Narishma was otherwise occupied today. A forest of immense redstone columns surrounded him, stretching up into the dark that hid the unlit golden lamps and the vaulted ceiling and the great dome. His boots echoed hollowly in the vast chamber, and even the whispers of the Maidens' soft boots. In this space, the sense of confinement vanished.
-----

This scene doesn't illustrate a "block" in Rand's ability to channel. Rand needs to see the Stone because he doesn't know the ground well at the inn, and he wants to use Traveling to get to the Stone. It simply illustrates that in order to Travel a short distance (from the inn to the Heart of the Stone), it's helpful to be able to see where you're going. One place that we learn that you can Travel short distances without knowing the ground at your starting place is when Rand leads the attack on Sammael in Illian:

-----
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 41- A Crown of Swords

Rand did not wait to see the last of the horsemen exit. With well under a third out of the gateway, he immediately wove another, smaller opening. You did not need to know a place at all to Travel if you only intended to go a very short distance. Around him he felt Dashiva and the rest weaving their gateways, but he was already stepping through his own, letting it close behind him atop one of the slender towers of the King's Palace. Absently he wondered whether Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar, the King of Illian, was somewhere below him at that moment.
-----

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and is a Dreamwalker

by Saidar Haran: 2006-04-10 | 4 out of 10 (13 votes)

Previous Categories: Prophecies, Foretellings, and Talents

Comments

Tamyrlin: 2006-06-07

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