rophecies of the Dragon
by Tigraine: 2003-01-17 | Not yet rated
This is really more of a question than a theory, although I will offer a solution as well.
Where did the Prophecies of the Dragon in each culture come from?
Obviously they are somewhat like Egwene's "true dreams" in that they will eventually come to pass, although not always in the manner expected. However, since we have only met one man going by the title of "Prophet" and he has no prophetic gift to speak of, I am assuming that the Prophecies are really nothing more than an organized set of Foretellings and Dreams about the Dragon Reborn and the Last Battle. A lot of them, apparently, as it would take hours to recite them all.
So, my proposed idea is that the Prophecies were either created just after the Dragon Lews Therin died. This places them during the end of the Collapse, perhaps even years into the Breaking.
Now, we also know that the old term "ajah" referred to a temporary joining of Aes Sedai in a common goal. There were myriads of ajah that appeared and disappeared as their tasks were achieved. Perhaps there once was an ajah dedicated to Foretelling and Dreaming? After Lews' death, perhaps they were bombarded by hundreds of glimpses far into the future, and after collecting their thoughts, they wrote the original Prophecies of the Dragon?
That's my thought on the matter for now. It's not really an important issue, but I've always wondered where a "prophesy" would come from in a world without "prophets" (as far as we know).
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-17
You believe that the prophecies originated from one source, or from a few sources, all from Aes Sedai, that were probably put together by a "group" or early ajah after the Breaking? It sounds reasonable. We know that the gift of prophecy/foretelling is something tied to the One Power, but we also know that Dreaming is something not necessarily tied to the One Power. But the question is, were the original prophecies, foretellings or dreams written down in verse? Does the BWB tell anything about the Karatheon (sp?) Cycle and such compilations of prophecies?
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Elder Haman: 2003-01-17
From the Aiel memories when Rand gets his dragons we know that the prophecies of the Dragon date from just after the Hundred Companions went insane, (Lewis Therin might not be dead yet). One of the Aes Sedai is frustrated because the prophecies aren't clear enough.
Later, when Alviarin is talking with Messana, Messana comments on the strangness of Eladia being so clear when she can't control the Foretelling.
From this I've concluded that the Prophecies come from Foretelling. That in the Age of Legends Foretelling was a command performance, (you could control when you Foretold, and about what), but it was always given in poetry/High Chant that obscured what it meant.
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onemorereader: 2003-01-28
From this I've concluded that the Prophecies come from Foretelling. That in the Age of Legends Foretelling was a command performance, (you could control when you Foretold, and about what), but it was always given in poetry/High Chant that obscured what it meant.
Also, Tuon veiled herself before arriving based on the Foretelling one of her damane gave her. She (I think she, but at least some Seanchen) says something to the effect that "everyone knew that damane can tell the future."
This is somewhat a sidenote, but I think her damane told her something about getting married to Mat, but the prophecy was unclear (b/c it was on command). This is the reason for Tuon's nod's and smile's to herself. She sees the Fortelling being fulfilled. I think that it is fulfilled to her satisfaction is why they apparently go back to Suroth offstage in the end of CoT.
4
Callandor: 2003-01-28
I myself HIGHLY doubt that Tuon traveled with Mat all the way back to Ebou Dar, when shes not even married to Mat, and that Mat would almost for sure be killed right away because we KNOW that Suroth is a DF, and you can say that the DOTNM would demand Mats protection of whatever and a darkfriend could still take him out, AND!!! to top it off its all not in a POV of Mat or anyone.
Two Words: No Way. It is most definetly someone, most likely a DF that Suroth planted, to pretend to be the DOTNM in order to trap Rand with the Sad Braclets. And she could most likely do this because its in the Seanchan prophecies that the Dragon will be bound, and every Seanchan will have read these or at least know of them, and I highly doubt that they would be THAT touchy over the subject of someone pretending to be Tuon.
In my mind, Tuon is still with Mat, going to wherever the the heck they are going, and not back with Suroth.
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Weird Harold: 2003-03-20
Callandor:
"Two Words: No Way. It is most definitely someone, most likely a DF that Suroth planted, to pretend to be the DOTNM in order to trap Rand with the Sad Bracelets. ..."
We know that there is someone impersonating Tuon from Seeker Morr's comments in CoT "A Doll's Story" so the Impostor theory is certainly very possible, if not probable.
Callandor :
"In my mind, Tuon is still with Mat, going to wherever the heck they are going, and not back with Suroth."
The question is, "who is in charge at the end of CoT?"
Mat's only real purpose is escape, and he's been notably unsuccessful at that through the series. He has a general plan of rejoining the Band of the Red Hand, but no real "purpose" in mind other than being far from Ebou Dar.
Tuon, OTOH, has a "purpose," or at least a very strong sense of duty. She's followed the omens to fulfill the damane Lydia's Foretelling, which obviously includes going with Mat. I'm convinced that there was more to that foretelling than simply marrying Mat, and I suspect it has something to do with Rand and his relationship to "The Nine Moons." She expresses concern about insuring that Rand meet the Prophecies as she knows them -- including the corruption about "kneeling to the Crystal Throne" I believe Ishamael inserted in Luthair Paendrag's copy.
Tuon and Mat have different responsibilities and goals, but I believe Tuon's are more important to her than Mat's are to him. At the end of CoT, it's not clear who is in charge, although Tuon certainly appears to be. She, at least, will return to Ebou Dar and "remove the veil" to arrive officially as the DotNM. Whether Mat goes with her and what his status will be is a total mystery -- I can see several obvious twists without a hint as to which is most likely.
According to the WOT Chronology site, there are about 13 days from Tuon and Mat's last appearance and the offer to meet the DotNM getting to Rand. With a *'raken base one day back at the river crossing, there is enough time for Tuon to return before the offer was made, and more than enough time for her to return before Rand gets there. Tuon COULD meet Rand, and she will definitely return to Ebou Dar. The timing of her return depends on who is really in charge at Valan Luca's Show.
About Prophecy, the Seanchan version, and Foretelling on command:
Ishamael taunts Rand about his success at causing Hawkwing's failure and a failure yet to come. The reference is associated in context with Luthair's expedition to Seanchan.
Since it's likely that Foretelling is a Skill rather than a talent -- i.e. it can be trained in anyone who can channel -- It's also likely that Ishamael and the other Forsaken can Foretell "on demand" as well. I suspect Ish is probably particularly skilled at Foretelling, and can "see" a long way into the future.
I also suspect that the further into the future Foretelling reaches, the less absolutely true it is. Perhaps the initial question to trigger Foretelling On Demand affects the accuracy of Foretelling?
Since Ishamael is "responsible for the Seanchan" I suspect he used Foretelling to create a condition that would (attempt to) remove TDR from the Westlands at a critical moment for his success at T'G.
First, he sent Hawking's Armies to consolidate Seanchan.
Second, he set certain conditions to send the Correne at the right time.
Third he made a minor change in the Prophecies of the Dragon.
Maybe Fourth: He sent Anath/Semirhage to manage a key figure in the Prophecy to reinforce his corruption of it.
6
Mairan Sedai: 2003-04-30
And maybe Tuon had a reason for giving Luca that letter of protection at that particular time. If she's thinking Ebou Dar, Mat doesn't have that much time to convince her to take his name off of that "NOT under my protection" list, neh? :-) Maybe this is where he gets made da'covale (although I'm still not sure that will happen).
7
brother of Battles: 2004-07-09
First, there is no way in the world or any other that Mat is going to be made property of any kind. He is way too important to Rand for winning TG.
Second, I really don't think Ishy has fortelling or at the beginning of the books he wouldn't have handled things with Rand, Mat, and Parrin so badly that eventually led to his first death. I think that while he was free for 40 years for every 1,000 he pulled strings and planted more in expectation of the next time he would be free.
I do however agree that someone, probably Ishy, tweeked the prophacies of the Dragon in seanchan. He was responsible for sending Hawkwings armies over the ocean, so he knew that they would come back. And by adding that one prophecy, it gave the Sanchan what they think is the correct(true) prophecy.
With the Sanchean prophecies, they will distract Rand and Moridin will be able to move more fully into the open and move his own plans along.
But back on topic, I think I agree to some extent with Tigraine. I see that it can be possible that right after the 100 companions sealed up the DO's prison, and Sadin was tainted, and "ajah" of sorts was assembled to catalog and script the Prophecies of the dragon. And the reason so meny were recorded was because a Hugh event has just occured and the world is changing. Plus we know that at the time the prophecies were recorded, a heck of a lot more people had the fortelling then there are now.
So basically, Mat won't be made property, Ishy didn't have fortelling, and an "ajah" was formed to record all fortelling concerning the Dragon Reborn.
8
Brendan Reborn: 2004-07-09
Just to nitpick, It is generalized that Ajahs were started to meet a common purpose. That is, yellows = heal, red=gentle, and so on. In the BWB that is the clearest definition I can see. Look at page 90.
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mako0424: 2004-07-10
i would have to automatically disagree with this theory, that not only can all channelers Foretell, i dont think so, but i also think no ajah was created specifically for prophecies, but IF there was, i think there would still maybe be one member.....Verin Sedai.
She has been searching for Dragon for 70 years, she has experimented with T'A'R'. i think she knows alot more than she lets on. maybe she too has the Foretelling, but i know it says damane can read fortunes, but i couldnt imaguine all of them could. i thought foretelling was a rare gift, and those that could foretell, could do it on command. not any channeler, and i agree, those on command are more vague, and those spur the moment unexpected foretellings are strong and specific, such as Gitara or Elaida. i also think , the damane that told Tuon's future, wasnt commanded too, i think it was spur the moment, and quite specific.
but i dont know if this is important or not, but i also think Nicola has control of her foretellings, and thats why she has made so many that all sound true and definitly possible.
