1
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-02
Well, I will have to disagree. Verin was trying to explain to Egwene about how all things have three constants, and she brought up a paradox of sorts that even she didn't bother trying to unwind. From further studying of Egwene's trips to T'A'R, and Rand's visit to the Mirror World, it is becoming clear that Mirror Worlds do not change the real world. They truly are mirrors of a sort, similar to looking at your reflection. It only exists within the mirror. You can meet yourself at the mirror, talk to yourself, but yourself cannot step out of the Mirror. What is inside the mirror, for my purposes in explaining it here, is a simulation of yourself. The Portal Stones make it possible for a "real person" to leave the "real world" in the flesh and travel into this simulation. There is some indication to believe these Mirror Worlds exist in the Unseen World because of how they operate. Rand must defeat the DO in the real world. Finally, let me leave you with a perfect example. The Mirror World that Rand visited showed that the Trollocs had beaten Artur Hawkwing, it was desolate, abandoned. None of those things happened in reality. None of those things changed the real world. Even if Rand killed Grolm there, or killed Trollocs, nothing would change in the real world. He could destroy that "world" and nothing would happen. There would still be an unsealed prison in the real world. This is very similar to making changes while in T'A'R because T'A'R is the Mirror of the real world.
2
Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-09
Things that happen in TAR do affect the real world...i.e. A wound or death in TAR still occurs in the real world.
3
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-09
I was specifically mentioning changes made to reflection of the world in T'A'R. Moving an apple on a table or a chair. Shooting balefire through the wall or destroying a palace. Those changes in T'A'R don't affect the real world. Nightmares remain in dreams, and reflections don't change reality. Obviously, from what we have seen, physical injury of someone who visits those worlds can be "real" when they return.
4
Niall: 2003-03-26
Actually, as far as the DO across the Portal Stones goes, there would seem to be a definite possibility that killing him there would kill all of them. In book 3, page 239, Verin tells Egwene,
"...there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once."
This wouls indicate that it isn't just a reflection of the DO, but is the DO. If you accept that as true, logically killing the DO in a world where there is just the DO and nothing else should destroy the DO everywhere. (Let me state for the record, though, that I don't believe that this is how the series will end, but I thought in this case I should play the Dark One's advocate.=))
5
Daishan: 2003-03-31
A more direct quote;
"No, child. There is one Creator, who exists everywhere at once for all of these worlds. In the same way, there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once. If he is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all." (TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams)
This is Verin to Egwene.
So...It sounds possible to me. In the same way you might wonder HOW he is imprisoned in all those worlds... Also with the Seals? But that would mean Lews and his 113 friends did the same thing in every world? Any ideas?
6
Callandor: 2003-03-31
DO is imprisoned outside the wheel. All the ther worlds are still part of the wheel of time. So if you shield the DO, himself at the source, off then think of it as a squid with thousands of tenticals touching all the worlds. Shield the head or body and you stop the arms. Thats what LTT did. He attacked the strongest most direct link to the DO and sealed him off with the Seals.
7
Aeolus: 2003-04-02
Well, I am glad I have stirred up some debate...
Tamyrlin, I do think that you confused my original theory, which concerned Portal Stones, with the idea of TAR...apologies if this is not the case! :)
As subsequent responses have reflected, there does indeed seem to be logical grounds for surmising that sealing up the DO in the world where nothing exists to stop Rand (which is a possibility and therefore must have a corresponding world) would in fact solve the DO problem in ALL worlds.
The real question, I guess, is whether RJ will want to use this convenient solution... My rationale for this is that the Last Battle is going to be extremely hard to depict in terms that do the build up justice. I actually think RJ is quite sentimental and will find it difficult to kill off Rand, and a battle, no matter how epic, would not be any particular surprise. I think Rand will go AWOL during the battle to use the Portal Stones and kill the DO in the manner I have posited. It would be in keeping with RJ's habit of surprising us...I also can't believe that an author with a writing and plotting style of such military precision brought the Stones in for no reason. He has always said that he knew the ending when he started the EotW.
8
dionysus: 2003-04-14
Regardless, finding this easier world would be more difficult than one would expect. Even if you try to use the Snakes or Foxes, you can't ask questions related to the dark one.... asking which world shadowspawn don't exist in definately violates that rule.
Otherwise, I agree that killing the Dark One in an alternate reality would destroy him altogether. The realities reached by portal stones aren't just images but actualities.
9
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-15
C'mon peoples...you are all fundamentally misunderstanding what Mirror Worlds are. Lets play a game. In this game, it is the Second Age. LTT, in the real world has just sealed the Dark One, and in x mirror world LTT failed to seal the Dark One, in fact, he placed the seals incorrectly and it ripped open the prison and the DO was released into x. So folks...what happens, in the real world, where real things have happened, the DO is not released. And in x world, where the Pattern has chosen to simulate an "if" scenario, the DO was released...so which is it, has the DO won, or lost...hmm, paradox. Verin says it herself, it is a paradox. And sorry, anything Verin knows about Mirror Worlds is based on something she read in a book, and from Lanfear's point of view, the real books, (ones that Verin would like to read but hasn't), the ones written by people who had actually visited the Mirror Worlds, and not just a book on the philosophy of Mirror Worlds by some Third Ager, are the ones that explain how Mirror Worlds work. Lanfear is the source of true information, Verin is the source of philosophical junk. Lanfear explains that you can go meet yourself in some worlds...strange, she doesn't mention that someone from a Mirror World can meet you, nor does she mention that things that happen on Mirror Worlds can have an affect on the Real World...because they can't.
10
Dorindha: 2003-04-15
The DO and Creator are CONSTANTS, OUTSIDE the pattern. This means that they are the same in all the infinite potential variations of the pattern - something done to the DO in one world, affects the DO in all worlds. This would work, because although things done to the mirror worlds do not affect things in the "real" world, affecting the DO outside the pattern would have an effect in all worlds.
As in the original theory, if there is an infinite number of worlds, there must be a world where the DO has not really touched the pattern - much like the AoL, where they didn't even know the DO existed. Therefore, logically, if Rand can find out a world where there is a situation similar to this (with the bore - I think someone says the bore exists in all worlds) and seals it - I'm not sure it is possible to destroy something that is not part of the pattern - problem solved.
However, I don't think the Finns could help (I think it needs to be the snakes as the others grant requests - so it would have to be someone other than Rand asking) as questions touching the shadow have potentially dire consequences (though aren't forbidden). This would only leave experimenting with portal stones to find this world - just trying out which symbol does what - which is also potentially dangerous. Therefore, while the basis of the theory is ok, it is just impossible in practice.
11
solomonrex: 2003-04-15
I agree with Tamyrlin here. The mirror worlds are not 'parallel universes', they are only examples of how the pattern could go wrong (pale reflections of reality). There is no mirror world where the DO has been defeated, because in fact there is only one pattern of events in which he does get defeated, and that is the real world's pattern. Remember every version of their lives that Rand, Egwene, etc. run through when they travel using the portal stones- and every version of their lives has Rand dying and the DO winning. Also, I think we are correct in thinking that the mirror worlds are related to TAR and in TAR there is no blight, no Shayol Ghul, nothing. The DO is not part of the pattern, and the mirror worlds and TAR are, so there is probably no way to fight him there, whatever Verin says.
12
Niall: 2003-04-15
Tamyrlin-good point, but I think you are basing your responces on the idea that it is the world that is important. (Only the real world can be the one that matters.) That could be true, but I don't think you've considered the possibility that it is the people who matter, not the world, as far as imprisoning the DO goes.
Also, just because Lanfear didn't say something can happen doesn't mean that it can't. It just means she didn't say something could happen.
13
believer2: 2003-04-15
I think Aeolus has a good idea here. If it is what RJ is going to do remains to be seen.
The DO does exist outside of the Pattern, but is traped inside of the Wheel of Time. If we use a wagon wheel as an example (I actually think of it as a sphere with a center), with the outer rim as the Wheel of Time, and the hub as the DO's prison, with all the possible worlds lying between the two, then what Aeolus has suggested is posible.
The rim & the hub can, & do, touch each world that lies in between. I think Rand will use one of these worlds to do what he needs to do.
I think Rand's faked death is to prevent the Forsaken, and others, from realizing what he is doing. Remember, Rand only needs to reseal the DO's prison. I doubt that Rand has the ability/capability to kill the DO. After all the DO has to be able to come back in other ages.
14
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-16
Once again, it doesn't work that way. Mirror Worlds are only as real as T'A'R. They are the worlds of "If", in other words, there is an "If", where LTT failed to reach the Bore in time, there is an "If" world where LTT placed the seals incorrectly and it broke open the prison, there is an "If" world where the DO's forces destroyed all of the forces of the Light and rule, there is an "If" world where Rand chose not to leave his town, and eventually went nuts. There are "If" worlds for every variation of what might have, or may be.
TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 16 - In the Mirror of Darkness
"Not here," Loial said slowly. "Obviously not here. 'From Stone to Stone run the lines of if, between the worlds that might be.' I've been thinking on it, and I believe I know what the 'the worlds that might be' are. Maybe I do. worlds our world might have been if things had happened differently. Maybe that's why it is all so . . . washed-out looking. Because it's an 'if,' a 'maybe.' Just a shadow of the real world. In this world, I think, the Trollocs won. Maybe that's why we have not seen any villages or people."
These worlds don't exist, they are shadows, mirrors, past, present and future possibilities and probabilities designed by the Pattern so that it can forsee all possible futures. It is impossible to know, but obviously conclusive that in one of the infinite number of Mirror Worlds, LTT and his forces failed, and the DO was freed from his prison.
Then Verin tells us:
"I don't know what any of these worlds is like. It is believed there are worlds where a year is only a day here, and others where a day is a year here. There are supposed to be worlds where the very air would kill us at a breath, and worlds that barely have enough reality to hold together."
The least probable worlds are even real enough possibilities to be held together by T'A'R. But, it is fair to suggest that worlds where the DO does escape are the least probable, but are still possible. So that is the kicker.
Verin, ""Let these represent worlds that might exist if different choices had been made, if major turning points in the Pattern had gone another way."
Egwene wonders to herself, if there are so many worlds are there infinite numbers of Dark One's and Creators. Verin chides her that there are only One Creator, One Dark One, and One T'A'R that remain permanent throughout. Then she mentions her paradox, if Mirror Worlds show all possibilities, then some would show ones where the Dark One escaped, meaning that he would be free everywhere, and others would show ones where the Dark One remained prisoner, so everywhere he would be imprisoned...that is why it is philosophical mumbo jumbo.
15
Caracarn: 2003-04-16
The problem with using the portal stones is that the Forsaken probably know how to use them and they can easily transport a few fists of Trollocs as Rand brought all those people from Tear to Rhuidien.
16
Anubis: 2003-04-16
thats always been wierd to me. free him in one and he is free in all, keep him imprisioned in one and he is imprisoned in all. it doensnt make sense logicly. but tam, there is one dark one. he cant be free in any world. also i dont think its possible to free him in any world other then the "correct" one.
or maybe, there are 50% of the worlds where it went better, and 50% where it went worse, and the "real" world is the focus point, the one battle that will determine the end. (like there being 101 worlds, DO winning in 50 creator winning in 50, and the last one up for grabs)
17
Rand-althor: 2003-04-16
I also tend to disagree. Of course this would be the best case scenario, seeing as noboby good dies, but nobody bad dies either, that leaves the forsaken to attempt to open the bore(again) and probably millions of trollocs and even more other crations in the blight. This solves nothing. Plus it seems very un-Jordanish to build so much tention in the last battle, just to have Rand run off to a portal stone world, and have no real battles. Then there is of course the whole mirror, not real, only reflection of what could have been. Basically, I believe that this theory would sink if it was a ship, sink very very fast, thats how many holes it has.
18
wilder: 2003-04-17
What if there are actually two Last Battles?
Two of the prophecies in TGH seem to indicate a double battle. "Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live and twice to die" (p. 386 in paperback) and "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth." (p. 386)
There is also a possible foreshadowing of this when one of the captured Black Ajah (Joiya?) says "Who can say what tricks the Dragon Reborn can play? Perhaps put himself in two places at once" (TSR p.121)
One possible way for the day of the LB to dawn twice, would be for Rand to use to Portal Stone to access a world where time runs differently (Verin says "It is believed there are worlds where a year is only a day here, and others where a day is a year here.") and so experience the LB in both a mirror world and later in the real world.
I think the possiblity that makes more sense is that he might experience all or part of the day of the LB in T'A'R, where time runs differently than in the waking world, and then re-experience the day in the waking world. Since Rand can enter T'A'R fully, any wounds taken there would result in his blood being shed.
I haven't worked out yet what Rand will accomplish by this. Perhaps he could set up a trap in T'A'R that he then springs during the "waking world" version of the battle; or shield some of the Forsaken and any new Dreadlords in T'A'R, thus shielding them in the waking world and taking them out of the contest.
Any thoughts? Have I just had too much chocolate?
19
Rand-althor: 2003-04-17
i like the idea of a T'A'R trap set up. But I think the sheilding is more likely to happen, unless most of the battle is going to be based in T'A'R. Cause so far, from what we have seen, traps in T'A'R only effect T'A'R, because if they didnt then the forsaken could just trap the whole world in T'A'R and get Rand that way. Still, good thinking with the fighting there.
20
Korell: 2003-04-17
I'm sorry this was a long list of posts so i did not read all of them however i am in agreence with Tamyrlin on this one but i have my own opinion to add....first based on the mirror worlds description would it not be impossible for a mirror to affect anything outside the wheel? what if the Darkone can only be touched from the "real world" therfore eliminating the possability of somone touching him in a mirror world...however here is what my true opinion on the matter...it says there are three constants right well if the darkone were to be destoryed then he could not be a constant because he would cease to exsits not to mention if it were to happen it would unravle the pattern because if 3 spokes hold a wheel togeather and you remove 1 the wheel will colapse on the side without a spoke.. the dark one can never be destoryed totally he will always exist just as there will always be some form of evil because without evil there is no good or the same agelace would have to continue on for eternity because history would not repeat itself with no Darkone.
21
oxdp954: 2003-04-17
The DO is not so much a living thing as he/it is a force. The "last Battle" won't really be the last one. Rand could go to another world and seal the DO's prison, but it would have no effect on the world he lives in. A mortal can not kill a force.
