1
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-02
I love talking about Mirror Worlds, almost as much as Lanfear. :) The cool thing is, Rand only has to defeat the DO in the real world. Since nothing in a Mirror World can change the real world, Rand does not need to worry about them. In fact, after Rand defeats the DO, a new Mirror World will be created to simulate the possibility that Rand was defeated, and another where the simulated possibility that Rand and the DO had a stalemate. Actually, those Mirror Worlds probably already exists, because they simulate past, present, and future events. Fain won't become the DO...because Fain is not a constant. :)
2
Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-09
Wouldn't the prophecy you mentioned imply that the Servsnts(Aes Sedai) would balance the Guardians(Ashaman)? The balancing on the edge of the knife would then imply the balance between the yin and yang that is so symbolic throughout the series thus far
3
Anubis: 2003-03-01
the yin yang fits, but remember that the one jordan uses does not have the spot of black in the white or vice versa. that, in my opinion makes it more fitting, they can work together, but cant intermix.
4
solomonrex: 2003-03-13
These posts about the mirror worlds and the ghosts and weevils stirred another thought: the Horn of Valere brought dead heroes to life (as ghosts?), so perhaps the DO has his own version of the horn of Valere to cause the dead to haunt the living. I'd be interested in the identities of all the ghosts- are they all dark friends? Did they have any connection to the DO? And I don't think Shadar Logoth and Padan Fain have anything to do with it- because his style was paranoia.
5
heronblade: 2003-06-05
the DO doesn't need a horn. he can step around time to resurrect his minions (manic laughter;})the horn ballances this ability for the light
6
Callandor: 2003-06-05
Wrong. Main thing with the DO is he has to be able to get the soul of the Forsaken BEFORE they die. Thats why he can't reincarnate balefired people. They die before they actually die.
7
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-14
Callandor nailed it on the head, the Horn of Valere can be used by the dark, What if Ingtar had blown it. The Horn is just a tool, possibly created for TG but it is neutral
8
missinglinks: 2004-04-30
Is been awhile since I've read WoT and have fogotten a few details. Stick with me if I go astray.
A couple things.
1) Concerning the Horn.
**the DO doesn't need a horn. he can step around time to resurrect his minions (manic laughter;})the horn ballances this ability for the light**
In either TGH or TDR I believe it was Moiraine and another Aes Sedai. Not sure on who was conversing but they are talking in direct referece to Mat, and him being the only one who can sound the horn. In the conversation, Moiriane is concerned about Mat being kill and the having the DO's minions take possesion of the Horn. For the only way to be released from the horn is death. (ooh i just had another thought)But anyway. It is not the side of good the heros are called to. It is the horn alone that they are called to.
2) Padin Fain: and I was just reading over TGH again and started to think about him and Nesblis.....? Neablis...? what ever it is. Do we actually know who he is yet??
If not consider this. Padin Fain or the being we know as Padin Fain is touched by all kinds of evil: Shadar Logath; Mashadar (Isn't that what the dark wind in the ways was called; and is the DO's hound. Didn't the DO actually instill a part of himself into Padin Fain. This combination could create anything. Basically Padin Fain is touched by every great evil in the known world. Makes a sound candidate to me.
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Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-30
Missinglinks:
The horn is also tied to the dragon. It is stated that the heroes of the horn will fight for whoever blows the horn, but will come to the dragon. I'm not sure about the exact quote but I beleive it is in TGH. Also, Padan fain is more likely to fight Shaidar Haran.
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Flinn Sedai: 2004-04-30
I have my little problem with the Horn, which is this...
RJ has said straight out that the Horn of Valere was from an earlier Age than AoL. However, the heroes summmoned by the Horn can only advance to the Dragon Banner, which was clearly made in the AoL. Those two bits of info just dont fit together, but it does mean that the Heroes will only follow the Dragon. Just a bit to think about.
11
udernation: 2004-04-30
Why, Brendan? I'd don't see ANY connection between Fain and SH...
12
Callandor: 2004-04-30
**2) Padin Fain: and I was just reading over TGH again and started to think about him and Nesblis.....? Neablis...? what ever it is. Do we actually know who he is yet??**
The Nae'blis is Moridin, previously known as Ishamael before being transmigrated by the Dark One.
**If not consider this. Padin Fain or the being we know as...This combination could create anything. Basically Padin Fain is touched by every great evil in the known world. Makes a sound candidate to me.**
Padan Fain is a combination of his own soul, Mordeth's soul, and personal enhancement by the Dark One. He did not meet with Mashadar; Mashadar is the fog of Shadar Logoth, and kills anyone it touches. He met with Machin Shin, the Black Wind, but was not effected by it; he was treated both as someone well remembered and accepted, as well as feared.
You are correct in saying that the Horn will work for the Dark; anyone that sounds it originally, will summon the Heroes (not anymore since Mat did).
However, the Pattern would not allow a Darkfriend to do this, unless it served a purpose to the Light. The Pattern is what allowed Rand, Mat, and Perrin to be at Falme, and it wrote out the events there. It would not have allowed for it to occur differently, such as a Darkfriend sounding the Horn.
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charliec: 2004-05-02
**RJ has said straight out that the Horn of Valere was from an earlier Age than AoL...but it does mean that the Heroes will only follow the Dragon. Just a bit to think about. **
It is not that they couldn't advance except under the dragon banner, but that it was fitting as the banner was there at the time.
Besides, if summoned at other times the Dragon might well have been at the head of the heroes rather than Hawkwing, and so they would advance under his banner anyway.
**However, the Pattern would not allow a Darkfriend to do this, unless it served a purpose to the Light. The Pattern is what allowed Rand, Mat, and Perrin to be at Falme, and it wrote out the events there. It would not have allowed for it to occur differently, such as a Darkfriend sounding the Horn.**
One of the confusing things about the book... does the Pattern choose paths to favour the light? From what Moiraine says early on, I'd say no- the pattern is neither light nor dark, but weaves the two together, and we have hints (admittedly not entirely trustworthy) that in past ages the pattern has permitted a measure of victory for the dark.
So the pattern could have permitted a darkfriend to blow it, or someone on the wrong side such as Turok if he'd decided to.
14
Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-02
Udernation: My reasoning for Sh and Padan fain fighting, is just the fact that SH is the closest to the DO, which would probably make him the most evil, and Padan Fain is clearly gaining powers (I.E. the ghosts) and if we are talking about padan faun being the key to defeating the DO, then it seems likely. We've seen him torture myydraal before. It was just my assumption.
15
dragonsceptor: 2004-05-02
I know this is going to open up old wounds but here goes...why do we need a replacement for the DO? If successful at TG, Rand will completely seal the bore thus removing the DO's ability to influence the pattern. How could Rand kill the DO? What are you going to kill him with? Balefire? I don't think so. It removes the thread from the pattern. The DO doesn't have a thread to be removed. The DO is outside the pattern. The idea that Rand can kill the DO is ludicrous. He can reseal the DO's prison but that is distinctly different from killing the DO. If the creator is eternal, so is the DO. Otherwise it would not be balanced.
16
Callandor: 2004-05-02
**So the pattern could have permitted a darkfriend to blow it, or someone on the wrong side such as Turok if he'd decided to.**
Turak wasn't a Darkfriend though; he was just a Seanchan.
**One of the confusing things about the book... does the Pattern choose paths to favour the light? From what Moiraine says early on, I'd say no- the pattern is neither light nor dark, but weaves the two together, and we have hints (admittedly not entirely trustworthy) that in past ages the pattern has permitted a measure of victory for the dark.**
If the Dark is victorious, then the Dark One is free. Otherwise it is not a victory for them, but a setback for the Light (like the Taint).
The Pattern does not weave in favor of one or the other; it strives for balance.
Also, in interviews, RJ has said that if the Dragon and the Heroes of the Horn were on opposing sides (a Darkfriend summoning them), that a rift in the Pattern would occur. I've always taken this to be strong indication that the Patternw would never allow a Darkfriend to sound the Horn in order to avoid the rift.
Examples of this are Fain, Ingtar, and Lanfear. Fain had the Horn in his possession, but he could not open it. Pattern influence. Ingtar was seeking the Horn, but never got a true hold of it. Pattern influence. Lanfear got to hold the Horn of Valere in her hands, but did not sound it. Pattern influence.
17
charliec: 2004-05-03
**Turak wasn't a Darkfriend though; he was just a Seanchan.**
But still, if he'd blown it the heroes would have been fighting for the wrong side (and by coincidence against the dragon).
Thanks for that info from RJ, did he indicate whether that's because they'd be fighting for the dark, or because they'd be fighting against their leader?
18
Arbryan: 2004-05-03
**If successful at TG, Rand will completely seal the bore thus removing the DO's ability to influence the pattern.**
I just started re-reading the series and in the book one prologue LTT (after he is made sane) thinks about how foolish he was to think that he could replicate the work of the creator. That in his ignorance he thought he could match the creators work when he sealed the Dark One.
Being the first book, I'd place more weight on the insight than if it came in a later one. I'm not saying that the Creator himself is going to do it, just that I don't think it's going to be as straight forward as Rand seals the DO. The end.
19
Jaidh: 2004-05-03
Padin Fain is fighting for both the DO and Rand(even though he does not know it).
Fain is killing everyone that tries to kill Rand because Fain wants to be the one who kills Rand. So in essence Fain is helping Rand.
On the other hand, Fain is fighting for the DO because he is trying to kill Rand, allowing the DO to have control of the world.
I disagree with Phlaneri or the ideas that ***Padan Fain will be the new DO if Rand kills off this current one.*** This does not seem possible because then in my mind the Wheel will be broken.
I have to go but I will finish later.
20
Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-03
I don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but The Dark one and the Creator are constants, outside the pattern, and if the dark one is destroyed for even a brief period of time, it would disrupt the balance of the pattern. Padan Fain cannot be the dark one after this one.
21
Jaidh: 2004-05-03
OK. Back to my reply.
Fain cannot be the new DO just like Rand cannot be the Creator becasue they(being the DO and Creator) are outside of the pattern. They are diffrent/out of The Wheel. Fain cannot be the DO because he has tied himself to Rand and Rand is affected by The Wheel and the Pattern.
On the WOT Faq article 1.7.1 is all about Fain and his ties to the DO and to Shadar Logoth. This is an interesting theory which helps expalin(or at least to me) why Fain cannot be the new DO.
I suggest you read it.
22
Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-03
Jaidh:
**Padin Fain is fighting for both the DO and Rand(even though he does not know it). **
Fain isn't "fighting" for anyone other then himself. He may be killing off the good guys, and killing off the bad guys, but his motives are only to get to Rand. I don't see any action in the series involving Fain fighting for the light.
**Fain cannot be the DO because he has tied himself to Rand and Rand is affected by The Wheel and the Pattern.**
Although I agree that Fain will not be the dark one, RJ has stated he has no thread in the pattern (thanks callandor for that quote ;)) and further, Rand is ta'veren, the pattern bends around him affects all lives around him. The creator and DO have no threads to be governed by the pattern. They are outside. If fain has no thread, which was stated, then he can't be governed by the pattern either, and In turn isn't "tied to the wheel". You may say he's "tied to Rand" but only in the sense that he wants to kill him. The DO is tied to Rand, he's wanting the same goal. The creator is tied to Rand because...well the creator is pretty much tied to everything.
23
Flinn Sedai: 2004-05-03
**It is not that they couldn't advance except under the dragon banner, but that it was fitting as the banner was there at the time.**
Charliec, here is the quote for you. It's a bit long, but here's the important part.
The Great Hunt, Chapter 47: The Grave Is No Bar To My Call. Page#661
"His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. 'Something is wrong here. Something holds me.' Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. 'You are here. Have you the banner?' A murmur ran through those behind him.
'Yes.' Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon's banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to the stallion's knees. The murmur among the heroes rose.
'The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,' Artur Hawkwing said. 'You are here. The banner is here. The weave of the moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.'"
They have to serve whatever side the Dragon serves on. Yet if it is of an Age prior to the AoL, then how can it be bound to a banner created during that Age?
24
udernation: 2004-05-03
unfortunately, Fain is also outside the pattern...if someone could explain why this is true, it'd be appreciated, actually. But it is - i guess that means that theoretically he COULD replace the DO. I don't know why this would make for a good nor logical ending. I'm currently liking the idea of the WoT being broken, and so no longer cyclical, which'd then flow onto the current time...very 'nice'...
25
Callandor: 2004-05-03
**But still, if he'd blown it the heroes would have been fighting for the wrong side (and by coincidence against the dragon).**
In the context of the interview, "sides" are never defined. Sides in your point of view means everyone with the Dragon or against, anyone against would cause the rift to occur.
To me, the sides are Light and Dark. Turak, being a Seanchan, not a Darkfriend, would be on the Light side and hence with the Dragon, not causing the rift.
26
charliec: 2004-05-04
**They have to serve whatever side the Dragon serves on. Yet if it is of an Age prior to the AoL, then how can it be bound to a banner created during that Age? **
This particular banner may have been created in the AoL, but the "Dragon's banner" as an idea could have existed as long as there had been a dragon. Former Dragons would have carried a banner as well, and while in TAR the Dragon hero would have his trademark banner just as Cain has his swords and Birgitte her bow.
The heroes are not tied to this particular incarnation of the dragonbanner (which is only a thing of cloth), but rather to the Dragon and his banner.
27
Jaidh: 2004-05-04
Brendan Reborn:
First you know good and well my theory becasue you where there when i proposed it. Yet it is clear that Fain's fait is tied to Rand's because his envy or want to kill Rand is too great even if he is ouside the pattern. As for the Wheel theory that I was alluding to, The Wheel will be broken becasue there is a level a pyrmid of hierarchy if you will. This being that the DO and the Creator are too high up for Fain to reach that certain lvl. Again i will continue... sorry gtg.
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Jaidh: 2004-05-05
Ok. So as I was saying, there is a hierarchy so to speak. Fain maybe out side the patter but he is affected by the DO. Now some of you may say or question why can't the DO affect the Creator, well its like ying and yang. The DO cannot control the good or the creator, instead he can only leadthe creator (and vise versa) by working his own magic. But the DO can control Fain even if he
Fain being controlled is explained by my theory of the hierachy. The DO and the Creator are at the unreachable stage of the pyrmaid, just like in real life where no other than God can be God or vise versa for the Devil.
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Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-05
**First you know good and well my theory becasue you where there when i proposed it. Yet it is clear that Fain's fait is tied to Rand's because his envy or want to kill Rand is too great even if he is ouside the pattern. As for the Wheel theory that I was alluding to, The Wheel will be broken becasue there is a level a pyrmid of hierarchy if you will. This being that the DO and the Creator are too high up for Fain to reach that certain lvl. Again i will continue... sorry gtg.**
Fain is within the pattern, he just doesn't have a thread. He is running around in Randland, wanting to kill Rand. It doesn't neccesarily mean that he is "tied to rand", just that he has extreme hatred towards him. I agree, the wheel WOULD be broken if fain was the new DO (which isn't likely", but I don't see enough evidence for that to happen. As for the pyramid heiarchy thing, I agree there is a certain difference in levels of power, but you must remember, Fain was twisted by the Do and ALSO, corrupted by manmade evil, which is by far more evil than the DO's kind. The DO's evil has been known from the beginning of time, whereas the manmade evil (used to fight evil) began to slowly become evil. According to the pyramid though, Rand would most likely be in the second to top level, and thsi wouldn't make sense, because a simple aiel or trolloc could kill Rand if he wasn't paying attention (not likely though)
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Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-07
Jaidh:
Yes i know I knew about your post, and before you posted it, I revealed to you the flaws in what you stated.
Fain is not connected THROUGH THE PATTERN to Rand, due to his lack of a thread. It's illogical (not to include impossible) to conclude that without a thread, your fate can be tied to a person that is governed by the pattern. This would mean in turn, that your fate be tied to the pattern as well. Though Fain has an obsession with Rand, it is not an output of the pattern itself on Fain's life. (We have no evidence to conclude otherwise)
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waterbucket: 2004-05-10
Fain's obsession with Rand is given to him by the Dark One.
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Anubis: 2004-05-11
oh but it is. fain was connected to the pattern at one point in his existance. at this point he was bonded perminantly to rand. his connection to the pattern was severed (only in the sense that he is not woven by the wheel of time) but his connection to rand remains.
