anfear is key to defeating the DO
by cwarner62: 2003-02-02 | Not yet rated
Lanfear drilled the Bore
Lanfear will be the key to Rand sealing the Bore and defeating the DO at TG. We know from the BWB that Lanfear, along with another AOL scientist named Beidomon, actually drilled the Bore. It therefore makes sense that she should know more about the Bore than anyone else and would be the most likely person to figure out how to seal it completely.
Lanfear already has a plan to defeat the DO.
Lanfear is the only Forsaken we've seen to actually defy the DO:
Her voice dropped to a whisper, equal parts eagerness and fear. "Two great sa'angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can. Far greater than the sword. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even...the Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!"
-TSR Ch. 6, p. 189 (paperback)
Lanfear is not stupid. She knows what she'd be in for if she tried to overthrow the DO with Rand and lost. She wouldn't risk that unless she was absolutely sure she'd succeed. She wouldn't even suggest it to Rand unless she already had an idea, a plan as to how they could use the CKs to seal the Bore. And we know from WH that this was not just her spouting BS to Rand:
So he had found a woman to use the other access key. She would have faced the Great Lord--faced the Creator!--with him. She would have shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side.
-WH Ch. 35, p. 641
She actually intended to go through with this plan.
Min's Vision
There was new evidence hidden in ACoS that Rand needs Lanfear. There were two thoughts from Min's POV:
What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?
-ACoS Ch. 35, p. 696 (paperback)
Min sighed regretfully, but it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed.
-ACoS Ch. 35, p. 700 (paperback)
Many people assume that the first quote refers to Moiraine because of the second quote, just 4 pages later. But there is no evidence at all that the two viewings are connected. Min's vision that she thinks failed refers to her vision that Moiraine will marry Thom, which has absolutely nothing to do with her vision about Rand needing a woman dead and gone to win. Although never explicitly stated, there has been a plethora of evidence to this effect. Moiraine has several times expressed absolute confidence that Thom was still alive. She also told Thom in TSR that she was certain he'd survive his trip to Tanchico. There is also:
Finally she said, "I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than either of you knows that of your future husband."
-TSR Ch. 6, p. 126 (paperback)
and in her letter to Rand:
"You see, I do not know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you."
-TFoH Ch. 53, p. 900 (paperback)
This is why she had a "small bubble of hope" when she attacked Lanfear. She had seen in Rhuidean that she had to pass through the ter'angreal with Lanfear, but she had some hope that she would somehow survive based on Min's vision that she would marry Thom.
Since there is no evidence that the "woman dead and gone" viweing has anything to do with Moiraine, it is very plausible that it is Lanfear that Rand needs. This is possibly corroborated by something Lanfear said to Rand:
"Remember that I am your only hope of surviving, my love." -TFoH Ch. 6, p. 177 (paperback)
While this may be Lanfear BS'ing Rand, it is also possible that it is true.
How does Rand get Lanfear to help?
A few books ago, this wouldn't have been a problem. She wanted to overthrow the DO with Rand. But now she hates him, and is mindtrapped, so how can she help? This is where my theory that Rand and Moridin will merge comes in. Min had a vision in ACoS:
"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched and seemed to merge into one another, and...one of you dies, and one doesn't."
-ACoS Ch. 33, p. 526 (paperback)
Rand thinks that this refers to him and LTT so that must be wrong. Lately, we have noticed a third person within Rand, called "the other" or "the third destroyer". I think this "other" is none other than Moridin. He and Rand will merge and one will survive and the other will die.
The Other is a result of Rand and Moridin crossing BF streams
The other and Rand's OP sickness are both the result of Rand and Moridin crossing BF streams in ACoS.
"Just thinking of that, of the two streams touching, made his vision double again. Just for an instant, he could see the man's face again, sharp where everything else had blurred.
-ACoS Ch. 41, p. 848 (paperback)
This is the first time that Rand's vision doubles and also the first time he sees the other face. The next time we see Rand is the first time his OP sickness is ever mentioned:
For an instant, he saw double; the world seemed to tilt dizzily. That was a recent problem, and he worried it might be part of the sickness that killed men who channeled
-PoD Ch. 13, p. 325 (paperback)
And a few chapters later, we have the first ever mention of "the other":
when he saw himself in a dream, it was not always himself at all that he saw. It was not always Lews Therin, either, the face he had come to recognize as Lews Therin's. Sometimes it was blurred, yet vaguely famaliar, and Lews Therin seemed startled by it, too.
...
The dizziness faded quickly, the twinned sight a little more slowly, as it always did these last few weeks
-PoD Ch. 21, p. 460, 464 (paperback)
We can see the sickness gradually getting worse throughout PoD and WH as Rand sees "the other" more often.
For an instant, he thought he saw a face. Not with his eyes; in his head. A man, shimmering and unrecognizable, gone.
-PoD Ch. 29, p. 644 (paperback)
I thought I could build, Lews Therin mumured in his head. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.
-WH Pro, p. 80
The only new thing from CoT is Rand's monologue in his head about the Creator. He says that it didn't come from him, so it must have been LTT...except that LTT had been nodding along as if listening to someone else and agreeing. This monologue seems very similar to the musings of a certain Elan Morin Tedronai.
Rand will end up controlling Cyndane's mindtrap
If Rand and Moridin do merge, Randin will have control of Cyndane's mindtrap. If this is Rand, then he can make her tell him how to defeat the DO and help him use the CK to seal the Bore.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-02
I agree with your assumption about Lanfear, and Rand needing her. She is key, no matter how much RJ has demeaned her these last couple of books. I would love to see her kill Moridin.
2
pointyman: 2003-02-03
An interesting theory for sure... many good points.
I'll just toss something out which is slightly unconnected but your post made me think of it. Total conjecture I admit, but:
What if Herid Fel was Beidomon reborn?
He was one of the two that opened the bore, so therefore must have been quite a thinker in his day. A philosopher, some might say. Just like Fel. There is no evidence to suggest that Beidomon was a DF, or that he had the spark inborn him. Fel could also have had the ability to learn to channel within him.
If Lanfear were to fulfill the 'dead and gone' viewing, then perhaps the DO knows that the information on his orignal prison, and how the bore was drilled is key. Could indicate a good reason for the killing of Fel.
A question then arises: if Lanfear is the key to Rand winning, why does the DO resurrect her? Surely he would be safer with her gone. I suppose it could be argued that he doesn't know how important she is, but it wouldn't take a genius to figure out, let alone a (more or less) omnipotent being. If he is aware of the danger that she could represent, perhaps he feels placing her in a new body, so that she is unrecognisable, is a sufficient measure of protection.
Why did he resurrect her? Surely he could 'distill' her thoughts in SG... he must have known that she planned to use the CK with Rand.. perhaps that is why her 'punishment' has been to be placed in a Mindtrap. After all, she didn't really do anything wrong in the whole scene at the docks... or did she?
If she is to be the key, it will have to come off her own bat, as no-one else seems to know who she is. Graendal didn't even know on their first meeting. Can anyone remember a quote stating that Moridin knows?
3
cwarner62: 2003-02-03
pointyman- Intersting ideas about Fel. While I'm not sure about him being Beidomon reincarnated, he was definitely killed because he figured out something that the DO does not want Rand to know.
I don't think the DO knows that Lanfear planned to betray him though. If he knew that, I think she would be dead permanantly. I think she's mindtrapped because 1) she set up Asmodean to teach Rand. Teaching Rand to channel could have been a big selling point on trying to win Rand over to the DO, but Lanfear made Asmodean do it free of charge. and 2) Lanfear tried to kill Rand. We see in the prologue to LoC, just a few days later, that the DO orders "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". He tells the rest of the Forsaken to NOT kill Rand.
I don't think there's a quote about Moridin knowing who Cyndane is, but I'm sure he does know since he is Nae'blis and controls her mindtrap.
4
Elder Haman: 2003-03-03
There is the reference to "only seven now living" remembering the game.
While I don't know about Moridin and Rand merging- the whole OP crossed w/ TP causing this sickness would be a masterstroke of Jordan. We're sitting here thinking it has to do with the taint, and it doesn't at all! I'll have to think about the implications of that idea.
5
Mairan Sedai: 2003-04-30
Maybe Ishydin and Rand aren't merging... maybe Ishy is just spying on Rand somehow, getting into his head. That would be very scary, but in a cool way. Although if he is, what's up with the monologue? Maybe the spying weave did more than Ishy thought it would...
6
heronblade: 2003-06-05
(excuse the clumsy language, im sorting this in my head as i write)bale fire messes up the thread of whatever it hits so if two streams of BF hit then they might messup the thread that formed the fire. it cannot erase the thread as it should so perhaps sections of the BF's thread get mixed up or twisted. this could have gon back to the channelers miking their threads together much like matts memories (bits other peoples threads in his memory) but instead of being inserted after the fact by the finns, they are 'active' parts of consciousness. i've just thought LTT ripped himself out of the pattern in a similar way to BF using tons of sadin. if he was spinning around the void after having been 'sucked through' couldnt the active bits of his thread been drawn to his new incarnation?
7
Rand-althor: 2003-06-06
A few things.
1) Where does it say that Mins failed viewing of Moiraine is about her marrying Thom?
2) How would Moiraine know she is going to marry Thom in tear BEFORE she goes through the archway?
Theres more but im running low on time so ill post em later.
8
Weird Harold: 2003-06-06
1) Where does it say that Mins failed viewing of Moiraine is about her marrying Thom?
It doesn't -- Min only says that Moraine is the only vision that ever failed.
However, Min viewing that Thom and Moraine would marry is a common inference from a number of clues.
First, Min references a viewing of Moiraine that is never revealed.
Second, Moraine make her comment about knowing the face of theman she would marry befor eshe goes through either Finn-door.
Third, Min says early on that most of her viewing are about people getting married or breaking up.
Ergo, Min had an undisclosed(to the readers) viewing that Moraine would Marry Thom inBearlon whenshe first joined the story.
2) How would Moiraine know she is going to marry Thom in tear BEFORE she goes through the archway?
Min told her in Bearlon after she first saw Thom.
9
Callandor: 2003-06-06
Min could have very easily told Moiraine who she would marry if she saw it in her viewings at Baelron.
10
Rand-althor: 2003-06-07
Where does she say that most of her viewings are about people getting married or breaking up? So far we only know of 1 that she was certian that meant they would marry. The one she speaks about early in the series, when proving her point that telling people does not change it. The only other viewings we have been told about that shethough may have indicated marrage, is the one abour her, elayne, and Avienda loving Rand, and even she wasn't sure about that, and when the Aes Sedai swear to Rand, and she sees that one of them will have a love affair, which does not even say they will be marrying. So so far, we have seen only one that is about marrage, and none about breaking up.
11
Weird Harold: 2003-06-07
Rand asked, "Where does she say that most of her viewings are about people getting married or breaking up? So far we only know of 1 that she was certian that meant they would marry. The one she speaks about early in the series, when proving her point that telling people does not change it."
I can't recall anyplace where she eplicitly thinks "most of the viewings of ordinary people are about love and marriage," but it is strongly implied every time we are reminded of her ability in each new book.
It's probbly most strongly implied when she explains how her ability causes problems because she told about a man who would leave his wife and later accused of making him do it -- also where she explains why she seldom lets her ability be known.
Every connection to Min having a viewing of Thom and Moiraine marrying is circumstantial and inference, but there is more than enough evidence and foreshadowing to convince me that it the most plausible explanation for various cryptic remarks.
12
Callandor: 2003-06-07
Min uses marriage as an example of what she is able to see in her POV in TSR once she gets into the WT.
13
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-08
Just wanted to say, what about the wound in Rand's side? any chance that it could be used? After all it is supposed to hold great evil, why not use it as a plug for the DOs prison. Do we need Lanfear? I think she will confront Rand one last time resulting in a battle, not sure when though? And what about Cyndane is she Lanfear, Moraine, both? just some thoughts.
14
Callandor: 2003-06-09
We have been given no reference or indication that Cyndane is anything but Lanfear reincarnated.