o need for Last Battle
by lythe84: 2003-05-29 | Not yet rated
Theres actually a chance that there is no need for the Last Battle if my theory is correct:
We know that balefire not only removes the thread from the Pattern, but also undoes the actions of that individual up to a certain time period (depending on the strength of the balefire). We also know that Lanfear (aka Miernin) was the one of the two Aes Sedai that bored the hole into the Dark One. So if Lanfear were to be hit by a balefire powerful enough, it is possible that it will undo her actions all the way up to the point when she unleashed the Dark One; and with her gone, the Dark One will not likely be released unless some other idiot bores into it again.
I know there are some points in the theory that makes it weak. For example, having balefire powerful enough to undo Lanfear's thousands of years of existence might be a problem. However, if we assume the most ideal situation (every single good male and female Aes Sedai linking with all of them holding an angreal and Rand using callandor and the other mysterious unknown male sa angreal and Nynaeve (or some other powerful Aes Sedai) using the female sa angreal...it might be possible...
And since Lanfear was "asleep" for the majority of her thousands of years in existence, removing her from the pattern may not cause as much damage to the Pattern as we would think.
What do you guys think? Would love some feed back.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-05-31
I think this has crossed my mind, but, if I remember correctly, Jordan has answered this question. He has mentioned that there is not enough power to do what you have just suggested, and most likely, it would make the Pattern unravel. Because if Lanfear never bored the hole, then no one would currently exist that exists. I wish I had the RJ quote, but I don't have time to go looking. Anyone remember where it is?
2
Tyr: 2003-05-31
Not even with the Choedan Kal? If Rand could get rid of the taint, undo what The DO did then i am sure he could produce balefire powerful enough to totally erase her thread.
I am asuming that in the AOL most Aes Sedai could produce Balefire. But, balefire was banned. So why would the create a Ter'Angreal that produces balefire (when Nynaeve first met Mog, a blask sister came rushing through the door from the garden with the balefire producing ter'angreal).
Maybe that balefire is different somehow, and perhaps Rand could use that thing.
3
Tyr: 2003-05-31
Contrary to my last post I believe if this was possible the Hall of Servants would have voted on it, then balefired her themselves. Is one Aes Sedai worth mankind? Nope. I don't think this could happen. And even if it was possible, would someone in this age go through with it? Think of the paradox it would create. Without the bore, LTT's rebirth wouldn't be needed, Rand wouldn't have been born. How is it possible for someone not born to balefire a person. I think it would probobly cahnge the face of Randland and no one would risk that.
4
Mairashda: 2003-05-31
this is basically an extended version of the "grandfather-paradox" with the same logical problems... without the bore and the war of the shadow history would not have taken a radically different path: no rand, no two rivers folks, no white tower, etc... and who to balefire mierin/lanfear/cyndane? an very dissatisfying ending if it should happen this way. there simply is no way to pull this off credibly.
5
Callandor: 2003-05-31
Two words: No Way.
6
lythe84: 2003-06-01
U guys do make sense...but the way i figured it is that balefire must have special properties that would not be contrained by the Pattern. It is mentioned that during the War of the Shadows entire cities were wiped out and those ppl's lives erased. The same paradox that you guys speak of still exists. If the balefire removes that person completely from the pattern, and assuming the balefire is strong enough to remove this individual a couple minutes before he/she was hit, how could the wielder have balefire someone that didnt exists a few minutes prior to using it against that person? Hence it is my conclusion that the paradox associated with the use of balefire must be to a minimum. When Rand disposed of the hell hounds outside Matt's door in Fires of Heaven, Matt still retains the memory of the hound slobbering over him even though it didnt happen. So what if Lanfear is destroyed and the Dark One is never opened. Could it be possible that everything stay the way it is, except Rand and the rest merely retains memory of the struggle?
7
Tyr: 2003-06-01
When a new dragon needs to be found, the wheel starts weaving a whole bunch of dragon. Some false, but there is the possibility .
Wouldn't the pattern just weave the bore in another way? It had to of happened countless times before, unless the AOL was the first age. No matter what the the bore would still be created, by lanfear, or not.
8
Weird Harold: 2003-06-01
lythe84 said, "It is mentioned that during the War of the Shadows entire cities were wiped out and those ppl's lives erased. The same paradox that you guys speak of still exists."
There has been a lot of discussion about balefire paradoxes, and it's probably the second most popular topic for questions to RJ at signings. Consequently, there is a lot of information about Balefire not in the books. Anyone making theories involving Balefire really should do a LOT more research in the interviews.
For example, RJ has specifically confirmed that Balefire does NOT reverse the effects of Balefire. Those cities destroyed by balefire would still be destroyed by balefire even though the reason for the War of Power was removed by balefire. The extensive use of balefire in the AOL before they realized the danger simply makes your plan even more dangerous to the Pattern, rather than less -- it piles paradox on top of paradox to the point where even Tyr's view of the WOT universe couldn't fix things.
Tyr said, "Wouldn't the pattern just weave the bore in another way? ... No matter what the the bore would still be created, by lanfear, or not."
I don't think the essential nature of the WOT universe works quite this way -- the concept of "convergent possibilities" doesn't seem compatible with the repetitive nature of the Wheel of Time. It's a concept that is derived from the Modern (RW) view of Time as linear, rather than the 18th century worldview that the WOT is modeled on. Balefire itself is so dangerous to the Pattern and Lace of Ages because it is based on temporal concepts that simply didn't exist until the 20th century and condradict the entire WOT universe.
Luckily, I don't think that even the CK (which would cease to exist if the Bore was never drilled) don't have enough power to erase Lanfear's thread back nearly 4,000 years. If it could, and did, happen that her thread was toally removed from the Pattern, the paradoxes and necessary rearranging required would destroy the entire WOT -- I don't se any other possible outcome.
9
Tyr: 2003-06-02
If you know alot about physics,you would realize, if RJ's Randland follows the same principles, and ibides by the same rules as Earth, then it is imposible. If you factor in all the variables, which ARE variables, not solid fact, then the equation itself could never, entirely be accurate, hence never getting the true answer. Even if you did, the principles of a paradox makes it unsolvable. Get it?
10
heronblade: 2003-06-05
wasn't it stated that the bore has existed for as long as the prison and that the pressent bore was only through an existing patch. if this is the case then it is entirely likely that the patch would have disintergrated to follow the natural pattern of the wheel. the last battle is as much a part of the wheel as anything else and i dont think it can not happen. prophesys are descriptions of things to happen. the wording is often fairly loose and obscure but i dont think that whoever set the pattern would allow its essence to be sidesteped by use of loopholes or clever wording.
11
rubbernilly: 2003-06-05
Hmmm... Remember Fel's explanation of this? If the prison was once whole, then it must be again before the wheel comes round again.
Now whether that includes what could - by semantics - be thought of as a patch, that's one thing. But a patch such as exists now does not qualify... the Bore is not healed.
12
Rand-althor: 2003-06-06
I agree with most of the arguments against, the bore had to be created, and Randland would be shattered if that essential part was taken out. As to a little about why Balefire cannot reverse balefire, think of it this way, when you burn a stick, there is no way to get that stick back, same as if you burn a thread in the pattern. Therefore burning the oringinal thread will not bring the seccond back, they have been burned out of the pattern, forever. Also Lanfear wasn't the only one involved in creating the bore, so eliminating her would not eliminate the bore, it would change the curcumstances under which it was created, to possably a time when LTT has died, causing the DO to have won 4000 years ago, and if Rand thinks about it, I dont think he will want to take that risk.
A side note, if Cyndane is indeed Lanfear reborn (as opposed to Lanfear just having her beauty and strength in the power reduced by the finns, whiether as a punnishment, or meerly because she had it enhanced and lost it somehow) then Balefiring her now would only serve to eliminate what she has done in this life, because if she died and was reborn, then her thread ended, and she started a new one later, meaning that she would not be balefired back to before she created the bore
13
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-09
Sorry just wanted to say that last response made me think of something. Maybe Lanfear went to the Foxes and wished she was the strongest in the OP and she was the most beautiful woman ever like Mat made his wishes. When she fell through again they got pised and took her gifts back, hence her knew appearance. After all we have never seen Meiren have we. Sorry to interupt.
14
rubbernilly: 2003-06-10
That idea is discussed thoroughly in the "Lanfear was artificially enhanced" Theory.
It is a pet theory of mine, with the clarification of your presentation that I don't think that the Finn just took their gifts back from her. I think she died, and that her soul was effectively reset to its default abilities.
15
Rand-althor: 2003-06-10
I just thought of something. Cyndane Can't be lanfear "unenhanced" or else why would she have a new name? Possibly unenhanced and killed (explaining the OP drop) but not just unenhanced, therefore Lanfear is dead and reborn.
16
rubbernilly: 2003-06-11
What is a name?
Why couldn't she be given a new name without dying?
But I agree with you, I think it is pretty obvious that she died and has been reincarnated.
So, for me, the order would have went:
She died
Therefore she was 'un-enhanced'
She is put in a new body (with her natural strength)
