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Home | Index | Archives | Help
alking Dead, Rand's decision
by Shadow Bane: 2003-06-30 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: The Last Battle
We know Rand has a ...softspot?... for women. He has a list of EVERY woman who has ever died for him in his head that he can recite at a whim!?! At TG when/if the DO fights Rand isn't it possible he could use these women (and possibly dead men Rand knows) to torture Rand? I think Rand would find it hard to fight the DO when every woman he has memorized in his head is screaming in pain nearby. Rand might have to decide either to try and help them or leave them ad fight the DO.
I have a few questions though. Does anyone know if the DO can channel a power like TP? Can the DO Reanimate without resurrecting a soul? Could he make souls appear in a physical form? I can't find this info in the books but maybe someone somewhere knows. Anyway the basic idea I had was the DO will use the women Rand regrets letting die against him the same way he tried to use Kari. Anybody think it could happen???!
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-02
Okay...this is somewhat of a pet peeve of mine, but I will be kind. ;) The DO isn't out of his prison, but Ishamael led everyone to believe that he was Ba'alzamon. Rand meets, not the DO, but Ishamael in T'A'R at the end of the first book. Ishamael used an illusion of Rand's mother to convince him to turn to the DO. It wasn't Kari Al'Thor. The DO does not control the souls of the dead, otherwise, he would resurrect every soul of a dead channeler and put them all in mindtraps and have them go out and destroy the world. The Pattern controls all of the souls of the Dead, except for those who sell their souls to the DO, like the Forsaken. He controls their souls, which is he shows through the ability to transmigrate them. The idea that the DO controls the souls of the dead is a fairy tale that mothers use to scare their children. It doesn't happen. He is imprisoned and has no control. He would like to have that control, which is why he wants to break out of his prison and remake the Pattern, but at this moment he doesn't have that power. Kari was an illusion by Ishamael, that is all. Rand met Ishamael, not the DO, at the end of that book, and we know that Ishamael doesn't control the souls of the dead either. We know that the DO uses the souls of those brought to Shayol Ghul in the creation of swords and is able to remove the souls of those who sell themselves to him and make people into graymen. What he does with the soul of a grayman is an interesting question. When the soul is removed, does it still have some attachment to the body, and when the grayman is killed, is the soul recycled into the Pattern, or does the DO retain control of it? :)
Mairashda: 2003-07-02
not much to add to that, now is there... except that this weak spot of rands may be one of the reasons why cadsuane has to teach him to be human, no, to accept that he is human... after all there are other ways to exploit this weakness but to resurrect the list.
Tyr: 2003-07-02
Pet peeve, eh?
*cough* Excessive, compulsive *cough*
Anyway, simple insults of the dead woman would probably be enough to drive Rand of the edge...Right now I think Rand is more or less fleaing from the forces of the DO. He's got to gather himself first, before anything. But it will be used against him, but at that time he won't be stone, or steal, he'll be human, and he'll accept it.errr...hopefully...
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-02
Then there are those of us who believe that the Great Lord of the Dark CAN grab and resurrect any soul he wants. Tamyrlin is not the end of all knowledge.
I think the Great Lord can basically do all the things you describe, and more. As to why he doesn't do it, I'd suspect that it either requires a certain effort or it doesn't serve to accomplish his goals. A large section of my upcoming Moridin killed Asmodean theory deals with this, and I look forward to Tamyrlin's debate. Keep the Faith.
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-02
Not the end of all knowledge, but on this subject, pretty darn close. Let's see, we have no indication by anyone who would know, that the DO can resurrect any soul he wants. We also have absolutely no indication that it truly was Kari Al'Thor. What we do know is that Ishamael was playing with Rand in T'A'R throughout the entire first book, posing as the DO. We also know that the DO has only resurrected people "attached" to him. So, if you are trying to base your theory on the facts from the books, then it would be wrong.
Callandor: 2003-07-02
Have to go with Tam. We have no indication that any soul, not attached to the DO, can be brought under his control.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-03
It is a fact that while we haven't seen any other cases, there is no indication that non-connected souls can't be resurrected by the Dark One. The closest you'll find is a statement when the Dark One speaks about how he can't bring Rahvin back. We do know that there is one case where he can't bring someone back, which we all know is death by balefire. There is also a second way which will keep him from bringing a soul back, which is if that person has failed him miserably. Asmodean is the example here, while Moghedien and Cyndane are examples of those who came within a hair of the final death. I understand you're dedicated to your idea, but please don't tell me that it's proven. The walking dead, Howal Gode, Kari al'Thor are reason enough to believe the opposite of you, that he CAN bring anyone back. My point is not proven either, but nor is there proof against it. As for why no one else has been brought back: Why resurrect anyone but your most dedicated servants? The Shadow hierarchy is performance-based. Succeed and get a second chance. Fail and die the final death. It's not a mystery, it's simple Shadow Policy.
Callandor: 2003-07-03
Trollocs are a mindless army driven by Myrddaal. Why not bring back an entire human army if he could?
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-03
First of all, the lack of evidence isn't evidence. Second, balefire is the proof I have. Balefire does not destroy a soul. Balefire removes the thread, the physical body, from the Pattern. The soul is returned to the pool of souls to await rebirth. So why can't the DO resurrect that soul? The soul is in the same place as all souls. The reason is, he isn't attached to them any longer. He can't step outside of Time, and take the soul before it is detached from him and returned to the Pattern's pool of souls. Jordan has said that all souls await rebirth. So, please explain why the DO can't grab the soul of Rahvin, but he can somehow grab the soul of Kari Al'Thor who died a decade before him?
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-03
I'll point out that the Dark One was generally believed unable to do any resurrecting prior to a certain number of seals breaking. But bringing back Aginor over a year after he died was no problem. So if the Dark One couldn't touch the souls of the dead at the time of death, as the supposed case is with balefire, then how did Aginor get brought back. You say it's a connection to the Dark One, I say it's because Aginor had served well and deserved rebirth. I explain the timing by the sudden appearance of Rebel Aes Sedai and Black Tower, which required agents to be placed inside. You explain it by the Dark One being trapped outside of time until Book 6 or whenever.
Based on Gode, Kari, and the 'gars, the Dark One can bring back people in their original bodies, new ones, badly ravaged ones, whatever he feels like. Or they were all illusions and you are right. I think there's a healthy debate to be made on the issue, and I don't think there's proof enough yet to confirm one or the other, despite what the masses believe. See you on the boards :)
Tyr: 2003-07-03
How does causing havoc, and carnage, and unsuing chaos not serve the Dark Ones purpose. In fact, did he not order his own forsaken to cause chaos....why, then, would he not, at will slowly create an army of channelers.Thats kind of self-contradictery, isn't it? And the dark ones been imprisioned for a LONG time, why wouldn't he, at any lengths, try to break out, despite any great effort required.And WHY not resurect people to BECOME his dedicated servants. Thats illogical, its not as if they can't be turned to the dark one. Process is simple, have all the BA sisters for a circle with 13 myrddaal, and slowly turn more and more female channelers to the dark, then you have something of a assembely line, process DEDICATED servants...of any kind...I am assuming the DO is smart, not an idiot, and any smart person would, if possible create an army, however slow it is being created. TG is approaching, and whats he got to fight for him...Trollocs, Myrddraal, the Forsaken, and some channelers. We know Rand can destory trollocs, and myrddraal by the castle load (stone of tear) so how much does the DO think they'll help?
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-03
Tamyrlin-
"Balefire does not destroy a soul. Balefire removes the thread, the physical body, from the Pattern. The soul is returned to the pool of souls to await rebirth. So why can't the DO resurrect that soul?"
You said it yourself-Balefire removes the thread. because balefire removes the thread and the physical body from the pattern, if the DO reached out for say, Rahvin, there wouldn't be anything to reach out FOR. Rahvin was erased so unless the DO could travel back in time to the place in time where Rahvin still existed he has nothing to resurrect. Kari Al'Thor was not balefired so she still existed up until the time of her death so the DO (through Ishy) could bring her soul into the physical world.
As for bringing Rahvin back once he returned to the 'pool' he was no longer Rahvin but the soul that Rahvin used so he would be a whole new person.
solomonrex: 2003-07-03
The FAQ's write-up of balefire contains quotes from RJ that support what Tam is saying exactly. It's a nice write-up and direct evidence that the DO can't control every 'dead' person (or every soul).
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-03
GLoTD, I think you are confusing Hell with T'A'R. ;) So, you are saying that Ishamael didn't create an illusion of Gode to scare Rand? It was Ishamael, not the DO. So, Ishamael has control over the souls of the dead? And you still didn't answer my question concerning Balefire. I can understand that you don't want to believe it, but the DO does not control the grave. Ishamael told Rand that he (the DO, he he he)controls the dead, hoping Rand would turn, thinking he couldn't escape him in death. Bringing up the 'gars doesn't help your case. The 'gars were the DO's forsaken, which were connected to him, so obviously the DO can choose when and where to transmigrate them. So, your evidence is two moments in T'A'R, where Ishamael was acting like the DO, trying to scare Rand into following him.
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-03
SB, I think you are mixing your beliefs. Why does the DO have to reach out for Rahvin, if he controls all of the souls of the dead? Why doesn't he just sit back and wait for the dead souls to come to him? The DO doesn't control the physical body, he controls the souls of his Forsaken. When their bodies die, their souls remain in his control, and he is able to transmigrate them. What you are suggesting is the DO somehow grabbed Kari Al'Thor (again, why is that necessary, if her soul was going to be in his possession in the first place), at her death, and has been holding on to her ever since?
Look, the Pattern controls the souls. It places them into bodies and the souls return to this location at death. The DO can gain control over the soul of the person if they will become his. At their death, he controls the soul of that individual and is able to place them into a new body, or just retain them. Everything in the books indicates this type of relationship...that is, according to how the majority of us look at those quotes. I am working on putting the interviews into the search engine, so maybe that will help us when we can search for direct answers from RJ.
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-03
I don't beleive the DO "posses" the souls exactly. I think he can access them whenever he wants (so he might as well posess them) so when i say 'reach out' I mean he decides to take full control of their soul. as for Kari no. she was in the pool and he decided to take her out hence reached for her then gave her to Ishy to use. The DO can access the pool when he wants to use the soul. As for the whole raising the army thing, the DO however still cannot directly touch the world so it is not logical that he could 'convert' that many people to his cause. Otherwise TG would be over because Rand wouldn't stand a chance. The DO is still locked up so he can only fully resurect and 'touch' loyal supporters. He can however use dead souls to his advantage as he can access them.
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-03
I know this is futile...:). If the DO can dip his fingers into the pool at will...then he would be able to grab Rahvin. But he can't! Rahvin is there right now, balefire doesn't destroy the soul. It destroys the body, and the action of that person. Rahvin's soul is in the pool and will be used by the Pattern again. But, as the DO explains, he can't transmigrate Rahvin any longer, Rahvin is lost to him. And we have no indication that the DO can GIVE access of the soul to Ishamael.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-04
Let me just spell out how I think the Dark one operates, and we'll worry about proof later.
I believe anyone visiting the Bore has always been able to communicate with the Dark One. It happens that only Ishamael did so for 3 millenia. Perhaps Black Ajah heads and Isam also have visited. Ishamael has either been free for the whole time as he claims, or he is released for forty year stints every thousand years. While he is long-lived, one must wonder if his original body survived all that time. He comes close to dying against Rand several times before Book 3. Would he have been unresurrectable if he had died in Book 1 or 2? I say no. I think he's been ressurected or has known he would be ressurected whenever he died, regardless of broken seals or other details. The balefire argument indicates that the Dark One must grab you at the time of death, which is why Rahvin couldn't be saved. He was blasted back in time a week or so, I think the consensus is. Then presumably, the Dark One was free enough to resurrect Ishamael within a week of the end of Book 3. Because if he wasn't free enough yet, then Ishamael would also have been beyond his ability to reach. But then what about Aginor and Balthamel? They were brought back over a year after their death. If the Dark One can't go back in time to grab them, and he wasn't free to resurrect back then, how did they get brought back? The usual explanation is the Black Cord allows the Dark One to find them after death. Then why is Rahvin's somehow no longer accesible? A week was too far for Rahvin, yet a year is ok for Aginor. There is a flaw that could feasibly be explained by Rahvin's Black Cord getting wrecked by balefire even though it wasn't specifically targeted. But we have also seen that Ishamael's Black Cord was cut numerous times, including his final death in Book 3. Presumably all of these Forsaken went back to the "soul pool" when they died, and significant time elapsed before their resurrection, so why does balefire make Rahvin's case different? I maintain the best way to explain this issue is if the Dark One was always able to ressurect souls of his choosing.
As mentionned in other posts, this privilege is reserved for his most dedicated servants, and only if they died in triumph, not failure. You don't bring an army back and turn them one by one. It's a gift unworthy of trollocs and typical darkfriends and involuntary servants of the Dark. Resurrection is special and used for key purposes, in particular rewarding the faithful. Gode was brought back to provide crucial info to Ishamael, not to scare Rand. A special effort was made to locate Kari's soul (after Rand was identified as 'the one') for the purpose of swaying Rand. She was real because of her reaction of thankfulness as Rand balefires her. Same for Gode's look of fear as Ishy rewards him.
I say Ishy asked the Dark One to bring back Kari and Gode, and got what he asked for. Thus, Ishy 'controls the dead' with the help of his master. Ishy has been fearless of death, because his master can bring him back at any time over the past 3000 years.
The Dark One's ability is to rummage through the 'soul pool' to find the soul he wants, be it Kari, Gode, or Forsaken. And preserving the memory of your past life is part of it also. The longer you're dead, the more you forget when you're brought back. He said balefire stops resurrection. But nothing about non-connected souls. The fact that Moridin can accept Rand's death indicates to me that he can be recuperated by the Dark One. I know you'll ask why that wasn't done at the AoL. Fine, I'll concede that maybe one seal had to be broken for the Dark One to work his magic. In this case the seal in the Eye of the World, which was broken sometime before the end of Book 1, I believe it was prior to the beginning of Book 1, but that's me.
Futile indeed. :)
Tyr: 2003-07-04
What makes the souls of the loyal different from other souls?
They are connected to the dark one, so, what if those not fully removed from the pattern never actually go to the soul pool.
Why would the rules of the pattern be different on them?
Because they are directly connected to the dark one. Think of it like this : Your feet are shackled to the wall (DO) and you try to move away from the wall. At a certain point, the chain leading to your shackled feet will tense. You either pull the wall, or you go no further.
Why would the DO specifically pull Kari al'Thor's soul to scare an UNTRAINED boy, when an illusion can do just the same?
GLotD you said:"I think the Great Lord can basically do all the things you describe, and more. As to why he doesn't do it, I'd suspect that it either requires a certain effort..."
If there are efforts required, then why would the DO go through SUCH lengths as to JUST grab one soul, not loyal to him just for show. That is very illogical.
And Aginor didn't get balefired...did he? I don't think so...
And if the DO can only, with ease, resurrect souls, and bodies, why doesn't he bring back his Dreadlords?
They are loyal to him, and died for the DO, why don't they get resurrected?
Why only the Forsaken?
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-04
The problem you will always have, GLoTD, is the fact that the books don't support your hypothesis. :) No Black Ajah or darkfriend, according to the books and Alviarin's thoughts, has been transmigrated. All that we do know is that Forsaken, who are attached to the DO, have been transmigrated. Also, we know that no Forsaken that is balefired can be transmigrated. But the problem you and Shadow Bane are having is you both want to have it both ways; you want the DO to have to grab the soul at death, but you also then counter yourselves by saying that the DO has free reign of the souls in the soul pool. The DO says he can't get to Rahvin, not that he doesn't think Rahvin is worthy of transmigration. This indicates to the reader that the DO doesn't have access to the soul pool. Otherwise, the DO would say, "Rahvin awaits rebirth, but I may choose to bring him back if I feel he is worthy." Instead, the DO shows true emotion and anger in regards to Rahvin's balefiring. What you are denying is that Kari and Gode could easily have been illusions, (by the way, illusions in T'A'R can talk and can rip your throat out if you aren't careful what you are thinking about).
Also, Ishamael shows up in Book 2 burnt to a crisp, which happened to him in T'A'R. So, we know that the DO didn't transmigrate him into a new body between those books. And balefire could easily destroy any connection that the DO has to his Forsaken, as you pointed out.
Finally, you are using words like "special" and "used for key purposes" to explain away inconsistencies. But we have no indication that the transmigration process is "hard" for the DO, or that he only uses it sparingly. Nothing in the books indicates that type of limitation. But this line of thought allows you to make the excuse that the DO wouldn't just take every soul of every important channeler he can find and control them...because it's hard, or his power is only for special circumstances.
One last note, why would the DO care to get out of his prison, if he already has unfettered access to all of the souls that make up the Pattern? What is the Pattern without souls, but a bunch of wasted rock and water? The DO wants control over the souls, which is why he wants to destroy his prison and take control of the Pattern, but it is apparent that the Pattern is in control, and he is limited by those souls to which he is attached.
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-04
There is a distinction i need to make-
there is a difference between transmigration and just manipulating a soul. Transmigration brings that soul back into the pattern, manipulating a soul (like Kari) just gives the DO control over their 'fate'.
I am beginning to realize the DO can only transmigrate someone DEVOTED to him, but that doesn't mean he can't manipulate a soul that isn't. Rahvin was balefired, his 'ties' of devotion to the DO gone so when the DO if he decided to, went to the 'pool of souls' and found him he could no longer transmigrate him, although he could manipulate his soul (but this would be a waste of the DO's precious time)This is the difference balefire would make.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-04
I have a hypothesis. You also have one, that just happens to be the majority view. You've given reasons why the Dark One can't resurrect just any old soul, but you also are lacking the proof.
It happens that all resurrected people outside T'A'R were Forsaken. The debate is whether Kari, Gode, and Ilyena (she was offered to Lews Therin) could have been resurrected. You choose to discount them because they don't meet your criteria, I include them because they meet mine.
I do not want the Dark One to grab the soul at the time of death. I maintain that Aginor was grabbed long after his death, just as Kari was. Until Ishamael confirmed which of the boys he was looking for, there was no way he knew who Kari was. But just as soon as he was sure it was Rand, Bang! He tracked her down and used her. You say he used her as an illusion, I think it's more evil to use the real thing.
The Dark One can find the soul he wants among the billions of dead in the pattern, and can bring them back to life, in their original body (Gode), a healed version of their old body (Kari), or an entirely new body (Moridin). It's not control over them all, it's not free reign, it's him plucking the one he wants from the masses he doesn't care about.
Ishy didn't die in Book 1, but he could have. Did he freak out and worry this was the final death? No. He knows he's coming back. He's always known since we've seen him. So I think the Dark One has been free to resurrect since Book 1.
I am using words like "special" and "used for key purposes" to explain away inconsistencies. You do the same with words like "T'a'R" and "illusions", or "connected." These have never been used in context in the books, so I don't see much difference.
Your wasted rocks and water comment is very good. I recall that the mirror world the Dark One had won in looked pretty bleak. The debate over control or destroy the pattern may never end. Still, it's possible that the goal is not to own the souls, but to destroy the souls entirely.
Tell me again please, why was Rahvin not resurrectable. If because of the time factor, what about Aginor? If because the connection was severed, what about Ishamael?
I don't deny your theory may be correct, but I feel mine equally well explains matters, and doesn't make Ishamael and the Dark One out to be paper tigers in the first book. Why can't Ishamael just be telling the truth?
Callandor: 2003-07-04
**Ishamael has either been free for the whole time as he claims, or he is released for forty year stints every thousand years.**
Off topic, but I just want to say I agree with the latter right there :).
**While he is long-lived, one must wonder if his original body survived all that time. He comes close to dying against Rand several times before Book 3. Would he have been unresurrectable if he had died in Book 1 or 2? I say no. I think he's been ressurected or has known he would be ressurected whenever he died, regardless of broken seals or other details.**
Then why is Ishy so wary of Rands blade in TGH?
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call
For the first time Rand realized that Ba'alzamon acted as if the heron-mark blade could harm him. Steel can't hurt the Dark One. But Ba'alzamon watched the sword warily. Rand was one with the sword.**
As Tam points out with the burn marks healing slowly in TGH, and Ishy being careful around the blade, he isnt going around *Oh Im not afraid to die.* The only time he even isnt careful about Rand is in TDR when he does die. After 3 seals have been broken.
**But then what about Aginor and Balthamel? They were brought back over a year after their death.**
I think that they were captured right when they died.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
Interesting choices, those names. Osan'gar and aran'gar were the left- and right-hand daggers in a form of dueling briefly popular early in that long building from the day the Bore had been made to the actual beginning of the War of Power. His memories were spotty—too much had been lost in the long sleep, and the short—but he remembered that.**
The SHORT sleep, after the long one which is in the Bore. I think the DO grabbed their souls right as they died, but had no bodies for them so he put them in a Bore-like place for when he had more power and more bodies.
**As mentioned in other posts, this privilege is reserved for his most dedicated servants, and only if they died in triumph, not failure.**
Umm... Arignor OD on the OP because of greed - great triumph there.
Baltamael was killed by the Green Man - another shinning example.
Lanfear died (presumably but however she did eventually die) by falling through the doorway - she was already going her own way, so whats the triumph there?
Ishamael is the only one brought back by triumph (Trolloc Wars, controlling Hawkwing, Black Ajah, and more).
**Ishy has been fearless of death, because his master can bring him back at any time over the past 3000 years.**
Far from it. As said above, hes been afraid of death up until TDR.
**Fine, I'll concede that maybe one seal had to be broken for the Dark One to work his magic. In this case the seal in the Eye of the World, which was broken sometime before the end of Book 1, I believe it was prior to the beginning of Book 1, but that's me.**
More then one is needed most likely, otherwise Arginor and Baltamael wouldve been brought back earlier.
**Futile indeed. :)**
Exactly :).
The DO doesnt have control over all souls, only the Forsaken.
Pendragon: 2003-07-04
I think everyone is missing an intregral part of the entire discussion. It is stated numerous times that every soul is part of the "Pattern." You have to ask yourself first:
#1. Why is someone connected to the Pattern?
That answer is simple: everyone soul is connected to the Pattern by a thread. RJ likes to use sewing terms when talking about his 'Dead and Death' scenerios. So picture a quilt, a.k.a. the Pattern. A quilt has numerous pieces of cloth peaced together and each piece is a soul. It is connected to the quilt by a thread. Now, the DO has control of some souls because he holds their 'threads.' Instead of being connected to the quilt, their piece of cloth just sits on top of it while the DO hold its thread. (I know it is getting hard to visualize all of this. It was better in my head, I swear.) The DO will always have control over those souls whose 'threads' he holds, while all other souls are connected to the quilt, or 'Pattern.' Other souls are the same way, their threads being held by something else. All of the old heroes' 'threads' are held by the Horn. Their cloth still lays on top of the Pattern, but the thread is controlled by the Horn.
If you are still with me, good job. After all this, Tamyrlin's theory is the closest to what I've posted.
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-04
GLoTD, nothing wrong with taking the minority view...heck, I do it all of the time...actually, I think most of my theories were the creation of a new minority view. :) It doesn't appear that I am any closer to convincing you, so I created my faction, "The Dark One's Control Over Souls is Limited," and I invite anyone that believes me to join. Here is the direct link:
New Faction
As to my explanation of the effect of balefire...I need to research RJ's comments on Balefire, but my assumption would be that balefire destroys any connection the body or soul has at the moment it touches the person, removing it from the Pattern (which is why a balefire that only removes the Forsaken 1 millisecond back in time would still put that person out of the DO's reach.) The DO is attached to the soul of each Forsaken. As Pendragon put it, the DO is holding the "thread", but balefire destroys that link. That would be my explanation, but it is something I need to ask RJ. You hypothesized that this would be my answer.
As to Ishy's transmigration, IIRC Ishy's cords were cut in T'A'R, that is the obvious explanation as to why he was never cut off from the DO as Asmodean was in the Real World, and the DO was still holding Ishy's thread.
Pendragon: 2003-07-05
As far as balefire goes, it destroy's threads. Balefire not only destroy's the thread that is connected to the Pattern, but also the one the DO holds. Now, when the Forsaken die by any other means than by balefire, their thread to the Pattern gets cut, like taking the cloth off the quilt and throwing it in a big wastebasket to be resewn later. However, the DO still has his thread that he controls, so he can bring those cloths and put them back on himself. They are on a different spot on the quilt, making a new pattern, but it is still the same cloth.
Makes you wonder what would happen if Mat blew the Horn of Valere and somebody just went to work on the army with balefire. Would the Heroes still be tied to the Horn, or would that thread be cut also.
My head hurts.
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-05
We agree at least on balefire Pendragon. The reason the DO could no longer transmigrate rahvin was balefire. however he could manipulate his soul if he saw fit. Manipulating a soul just gives the DO control of that souls 'fate'(we saw this with Kari)I still agree with TGLOTD though,
(would be nice if someone would make a faction for our point...)
Callandor: 2003-07-05
**Makes you wonder what would happen if Mat blew the Horn of Valere and somebody just went to work on the army with balefire. Would the Heroes still be tied to the Horn, or would that thread be cut also.**
Absolutely nothing would happen to them. The Heroes aren't effected by the OP once summoned by the Horn.
Mairashda: 2003-07-06
the Heroes are not affected by the One Power because they are not quite in our world, while your basic web is very definitely. balefire, however, is a web that is IIRC partly outside of the pattern ... so it might have some interesting effect.
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-06
Callandor's right. The damane at Falme couldn't touch them. The question is-
Can the DO manipulate the soul of a Hero? I think not on this one. The horn probably gives some kind of protection.
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-06
In TGH it says the HotH are protected by their link to the horn, however if an evil being should blow it...that's a different story.
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-06
Callandor-
"Then why is Ishy so wary of Rands blade in TGH?"
Because he wanted to win the battle at Falme. If he got killed he couldn't win (at least THERE) He wanted to finish it there and then, obviously he failed.
Callandor: 2003-07-06
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 52 - Need
The other woman grimaced, embarrassed and regretful. "I cannot, Nynaeve. I cannot touch the world of flesh unless the Horn calls me again. Or else the Wheel weaves me out. If it did this moment, you would find only an infant mewling at her mother's breast. As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why THE POWER COULD NOT TOUCH US. Here, all is part of the dream, and the One Power could destroy me as easily as you. More easily. I told you; I am an archer, a sometime soldier, no more." Her complex golden braid swung as she shook her head. "I do not know why I am explaining. I should not even be talking to you."**
Nothing at all would happen to the Heroes if attacked with balefire.
juitzhead: 2003-07-06
I have to agree with Tam.
I don't believe that the DO can transmigrate any soul he chooses. Firsty, because we havent seen it and secondly because it would be no use to him. What is the point of resurrecting souls that are not loyal to you? Sure, channelers can be turned or put on a cour'suvra, once resurrected. But since we havent seen or heard of it in the books, not even from the Forsaken or their memories from the AOL when this could have frequently, i tend to believe that it cant happen.
Non-channelers? They can't be turned by the OP that we know of (maybe bound by that chair Sammael was talking about, but there aren't any around). Could the DO manipulate the soul? I don't think so but have no proof so this could go either way. Hence, Ishy trying to get Rand to swear to the DO, otherwise, he could have just kidnapped him and taken him to SG where the DO could have turned him.
The fact that the Forsaken have SWORN their souls to the DO, allows him to claim their souls and resurrect them. (nothing to do with black threads).
Non-sworn (which include HotH) are not succeptible to have their souls manipulated.
Time time time, the DO cannot step outside of time. He has to live here and now. The way I see balefire death is that your death doesn't happen at the instant you get balefired, your death is at the end of your burnt thread. Huh? Say you get balefire and hour back, your soul is returned to the pool and hour back, not at the instant you get balefired. Hence the DO cannot step outside the pattern and reach your soul an hour back. He needs to be there when your soul is released to the pool.
Why wouldn't he be able to resurrect Rahvin from the pool If he was able to do with the ‘gars a year later?
He doesnt have access to the soul pool. He has his own mini soul pool where he keeps the souls of those devoted to him. Nothing to do with success or failure. The Forsaken have sworn their souls to him so he can do as he chooses with them.
As far a 3rd ager people go, not sure if the DO would transmigrate them also.
Callandor: 2003-07-06
Then why not just simply impale himself on the blade and split Rands head with his staff when Rands defenses are down then if hes SO not fearing death?
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-06
You mean Heron in the Rushes? I dont know, well Ishy is kinda insane...maybe he just well didn't think of it. You got me there Callandor.
Anubis: 2003-07-07
ISHMAEL IS NOT TRYING TO KILL RAND.
he did that once, and only once. and it ended badly.
the dark one does not ressurect his dredlords because it would be too much work and not worth it. like bringing back a trolloc. prolly there is a time limit, and you need a body there at the right time and theres only so many of those you can have laying around.
the dark one cant ressurect rhavin because he needs to catch the soul as it leaves the body. with balefire the soul already left the body, its home free and safe. hence the i cant step outside of time remark. he cant go back and get a soul thats already left.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-07
A Faction? Champion Idea. It's long overdue. You know I'll be making a few of my own someday... ;)
I find that I agree with one above point: If some connection to the Dark One is required, it's the pledge, not the Black Cord. I believe that is just the True Power link, not a resurrection link. I also agree that a Dark One closet for Dead Chosen, instead of returning to the Soul Pool is a plausible explanation for the lag between Aginor's death and resurrection, though I still say that he was brought back because of the emergence of the Asha'man and Rebel Aes Sedai, not because the Dark one was suddenly free enough to begin resurrecting.
As for worth, Callandor. Failing isn't bad. It's failing to try, or counteracting the Dark One's desires that gets you permanently dead. Aginor and Balthamel tried to win, and lost. They come back. Lanfear gave Rand Asmodean. She gets Mindtrapped. Carridin put off locating and killing Rand, so he dies. Anyone who's sincerely done as the Dark One asks, has been rewarded even in failure for their unswerving dedication. Those who faltered... well...
Final point about Ishamael's fear of death. I think it was Graendal who said if al'Thor showed up, she would flee rather than face him. She's not so sure that she'll be back, so why risk it? The fact that Ishamael even faces Rand is indication enough of his confidence, in both winning the conflict, or having a failsafe if things go sour. It's not proof, but who else has dared face Rand with so much on the line?
I think it unlikely I'll convert anyone, but we'll see how many sign up to my (eventual) faction.
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-07
You've got one member. anyways yeah, the DO needs loyal servants, so those are the ones he chooses to transmigrate. Just like TGLOTD says.
Anubis: 2003-07-07
maybe getting stabbed through the chest with a large sword is kinda painfull and ishy doesnt seem like the embrace pain type to me...
or maybe it was just an act.
Callandor: 2003-07-07
Ishamael will face Rand because of 1. Ishamael was the only Forsaken able to challenge LTT in strength of the Power (BWB), and 2. He thinks that he can control Rand and knows how to do that even if he had to force him along.
And another thing Arignor, Baltamael, Be lal, and Lanfear all face Rand so its not just Ishamael and I doubt they face Rand because they dont fear death.
juitzhead: 2003-07-07
quote:
"I find that I agree with one above point: If some connection to the Dark One is required, it's the pledge, not the Black Cord. I believe that is just the True Power link, not a resurrection link. I also agree that a Dark One closet for Dead Chosen, instead of returning to the Soul Pool is a plausible explanation for the lag between Aginor's death and resurrection, though I still say that he was brought back because of the emergence of the Asha'man and Rebel Aes Sedai, not because the Dark one was suddenly free enough to begin resurrecting."
so GL, basically youre agreeing with Tam. ;)
oh yeah "VOTE 1" GLTOD
Tam, do you agree with the mini-soul pool theory? I think it answers a lot in terms of timing and no access to the soul-pool.
Callandor: 2003-07-07
**I find that I agree with one above point: If some connection to the Dark One is required, it's the pledge, not the Black Cord. I believe that is just the True Power link, not a resurrection link.**
Just a little nitpick: The Black Cords dont allow a person to use the TP, that comes by wanting to and the DO letting you.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-08
Juitzhead, where Tam and I disagree is whether non-Forsaken can be resurrected. The Black Cord symbolizes something, which I think is not resurrection related, but I believe Tam does. I concede that yes, his theory seems to mostly hold water, (why else would it persevere over all this time) but I see a few holes in it. I agree that it's possible. But I'm far from declaring things as absolute certainties as Callandor frequently seems to. ;)
Anubis: 2003-07-08
um... the black chords are the dark ones connection to the forsaken. protect them from taint... prolly some other stuff cus im betting the females have them too. and possibly the ressurection. i guess the do would need to ressurect someone without dark chords to lay that to rest. and im betting it aint gonna happen, so for all intents and pourposes, the black chords are what enables the DO to ressurect.
Rand-althor: 2003-07-08
Ishy only ever wanted to defeat Rand in TDR. I think in TGH he was just stalling for time, hoping that the Seanchan would get Egwene and Nyn on to a ship and his plan would be a success. 3 reasons for this belief.
1) If his goal was to kill Rand, then why did he hit rand on the side, as opposed to through the heart.
2) If he wanted Rand to die, he would have killed him with either the TP or the OP, either or
3) When Ishy is thinking about the game(i forget its name) he thinks sonething about there being a third path to victory, to eliminate all your enemies, then goes on to say He had tried that once and it had been painful, and had failed. Assuming that he is talking about the bigger battle with Rand, not the actual game on the board, that would have been TDR, the ONLY time he has tried to defeat Rand.
Now to dispute the main point of the theory. As above comments are, if the DO could reserect at will, then why not make an army. Granted, non-channelers wouldn't work, but he could make a army of channelers turned to the dark through 13 BA and 13 fades.
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And as a point towards the Kari argument, what is created in TAR is real, but soulless. When Egwene made Bela real in TAR, the real Bela didn't fall dead because she had no soul. But it acted as the real Bela would. In the same way, Kari acted as the real her would have If she was ever put in that situation. That is the only reason she was able to thank Rand for freeing her. If the DO had supreme control over the souls, then why would he not have killed Mat and Perin as they awaited rebirth? It is obvious they are not heros of the horn, so why not just ping them off, and Rand looses, TG won, and the pattern is yours. Therefore the DO has no control whatsoever over people who have not sworn to him.
heronblade: 2003-07-09
woildn't the forsaken be the do's equivalent of the hero's of the horn?
if so, when they are dead they could go to a place parallel to the wod until pulled out like brigitte was.
it could be the do has access to this world and works his mojo there. it could also have something to do with how the wiseones warn of the danger of walking in the wod in a body, and hoppers warnings of being there to strongly to perrin.
it could make it so enough of you is left behind that the do can get a grip on your soul.
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-10
TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 56 - Glowing Embers
Idly-but with a shiver, too-be wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man. He did not think so. Immortality was gone. That was a gift of the Great Lord; he used that name in his head, whatever al'Thor demanded on his tongue. That was proof enough that he was himself. Immortality gone- he knew it must be imagination, yet sometimes he thought he could feel time dragging at him, pulling him toward a grave he had never thought to meet and nawing the little of saidin he could was like drinking sewage.", Tamyrlin, 2003-07-10
That quote was found by Tamyrlin and posted under the Lanfear was not killed by the Elfinns theory.
All i can say is...wow. This requires some rethinking. So this is a 'revised' view of how the DO conducts himself.
The DO cannot step out of time- period. The DO can only Transmigrate souls attached to him by the cords (any ideas on what they are, like physically?) However the DO because of the (for lack of a better word)'seperateness' of Shayol Ghul can access the pool of souls. Using some power of his he can take a soul, and manipulate it, delaying it's rebirth (maybe like what Machin shin does...at least similar) The DO has some way of keeping souls in his own 'mini' soul pool to wait until he gives them rebirth. I do however wonder if the cords are strictly for channelers, or if nonchannelers who are of the dark (like slayer) would have them too. Balefire affects the DO's control by preventing transmigration through time. One quote seems to contradict all others though.
TEOTW Prolougue "Elan Morin" to Lews Therin
"You can have her back, Kinslayer. The Great Lord of the Dark can make her live again, if you will serve him"
How could Lews have Ilyena back if she was not attached to him by cords? To me it seems he would just manipulate her soul for a moment, long enough to convince LTT then let her soul go back to the pool. GLOTD, Tamyrlin any ideas?
A Wild One: 2003-07-10
SB-
How could Lews have Ilyena back if she was not attached to him by cords? To me it seems he would just manipulate her soul for a moment, long enough to convince LTT then let her soul go back to the pool. GLOTD, Tamyrlin any ideas? ***
Obviously a lie used to manipulate, you know like "the checks in the mail" or "no honey, you're not fat". Since LTT serves the Light, he wouldn't know ishy was lying until it was too late.
Callandor: 2003-07-10
Umm.. Ishy was lying maybe? Tempting Lews to join the Dark finally? Or just throwing in his face *Hey you crazy moron! You killed your wife!*
Rand-althor: 2003-07-11
I don't thing anything REALLY happens if you go into the world of dreams in the flesh. I think the wise ones knew that the forsaken used it, so reasonably assumed it would be evil (like Compulsion), but that was not enough to keep people out of TAR in the flesh, so they made up a story about leaving part of yourself there everytime you go. I mean Rand pops in and out of TAR but we haven't seen any sign of weakening in him.
Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-11
Just go to my new Moridin killed Asmodean theory for the exhaustive reasons behind my belief that Kari was real, and just about every other issue on resurrection debated here.
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-15
Callandor-
Although that seems probable to me at least that whole conversation seemed...deeper. The champion of light confronting the champion of the darkness. They seemed kind of tired of the struggle. I don't know Ishmael seemed...genuine to me. That just bothers me i guess.
juitzhead: 2003-07-29
Callandor said: "Just a little nitpick: The Black Cords dont allow a person to use the TP, that comes by wanting to and the DO letting you. "
the black chords protect from the taint AND allow you to tap into the TP. You still need permission but that connection allows you to do it.
Gee i love that new interview. :)
Callandor: 2003-07-30
Technically, I'm not wrong at all. The Black Cords dont allow you to draw on it anytime you want, they just give you the ability (plus I said this before the dang interview). You still NEED the DO's permission.
mosc: 2004-01-02
Surely, if the DO can control the souls of the dead he would take the souls of the various heroes who oppose him, or send his champions back into the world, fully formed at the instant they die (like Moggy does to Birgette). Possibly the Heroes of the horn are exempt from this, but he could still get the Dragon as he isn't one (he's a bad guy by the first age according to Revelations)
Flinn Sedai: 2004-03-27
RJ has already adressed the DO abilities in this matter to an extent. He said that the DO has to reserve a soul for reincarnation, then he can ressurect them whenever he wants, thats why he cant ressurect BFed people. He has to reserve the soul within a few second of their death, but if they were dead before he could ressurect them, then obviously he couldnt put them in a new body. Unless somebody used extremely weak BF, then he cant touch them.
Callandor: 2004-03-28
**Unless somebody used extremely weak BF, then he cant touch them.**
Any level of balefire would do it.