1
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-14
Friar, this is an original thought, and I like it. Just recently, I have been wondering if it is really possible for the DO to escape his prison. The hole was bored, and it remained in that state, if I remember correctly, for over a hundred years. He can influence the world, but he hasn't shown that he can truly escape in his current form. So, the idea that the DO needs to possess the body of Rand, to escape sounds plausible; however, why couldn't he possess the body of Ishamael? Are you suggesting that there is some uniqueness about Rand's body or thread? I like the idea that, in the case of possession occurring, the evil of Shadar Logoth would battle the evil of the DO, literally. That is what you are suggesting, correct? Although, I don't believe Rand will ever be without Lews, in the sense that they are the same soul, but maybe, in his rebirth, he won't create a second personality, because any damage from the taint, etc, will be corrected.
2
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-14
This is really original, and could it be? THOUGHT PROVOKING! (yeah!) I don't know about the DO possesing a physical body, i don't think it's possible even for some one like shaidar haran to be the DO in the flesh because he is to powerful to be completely physical. I agree with you that Rand will escape Lews. my own theory is that Rand will take on the form of a hero of the horn, instead of Lews. Like this theory but i still dont see the DO being made flesh.
3
Lewin: 2003-07-14
Great theory... Like the thought of the DO struggling to take over Rands body to take on physically in the real world. And then perhaps Rand finds out somehow and decides to commit suicide, and thus his blood on the slopes of Shayul Gaul (Dont really remember how the prophecy was..) will save the world since the DO cant take his body...
And i dont think Rand will have LTT's voice in his head forever, they will melt togtheer( Like Mins wieving says), and become one harmonical person.
4
juitzhead: 2003-07-14
Ill have to agree that this would be a good pet theory. I say pet because you have overlooked on crucial piece of evidence that MIGHT go against you. Ishamael told Rand that the Dragon had been turned previously. Now, Ishamael has said a lot of things to turn Rand, and a lot of these things are not known as fact or fiction. Just one reason of why it could not be.
5
juitzhead: 2003-07-14
sorry, the point was, if he had been turned then why couldnt the DO take over his body? I would assume that a person who has been turned has their soul controlled by the DO.
6
Jiana: 2003-07-14
I like this theory Friar. And there may be (just maybe) a little foreshadowing to it as well. Currently re reading book six LoC, and Sammael speculates on whether or not the "Great Lord" intends Rand to be Nae'blis, provided that he could be turned to the Shadow's side. Sammael may have almost hit the mark, in that he doesn't intend Rand to be Nae'blis, the DO intends for Rand to be his host.
Tam: Why doesn't he just possess Ishmael?
Because Ishmael is not the Creator's champion. Lews Therin/Rand al'Thor is. The DO would get more personal pleasure, if not gain, from possessing his body instead. Kind of an "in your face" thing.
7
Rhodric: 2003-07-15
perhaps in the age that the dragon was turned to the dark side, the dark one himself was not able to touch the world. ie. in an age where the DO prison is complete.
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rubbernilly: 2003-07-15
I don't necessarily like the idea that the DO's goal is to possess Rand, but it does have some merit:
If the DO can possess the Creator's champion in order to move about the world, what you have is a situation where the DO is free to do what he wants to do without having to fight a Champion of the Light.
And, with the DO's ability to keep Rand alive indefinately, the soul of the Creator's Champion is effectively trapped and out of the way for eternity. Interesting.
9
Friar: 2003-07-16
Thank you for your replies. I am glad that you like to discuss it so.
My idea stems from the fact that for many (thousands) of cycles the DO still remains inside his prison. His goal is to "Remake Randworld in his own image" and be free once and for all. In previously incarnated version of Rand he has "Converted" the creators champion but still remained trapped, (somehow). Therefore to break the cycle he has to do something different. Something that he has not done before. Thought that he can posses one of his own followers (creatures of the dark), it is not enough, (he attaches himself but nothing more). He needs something of the creators and in particular his champion.
Now why is the question. I have only speculated on a theory that is based on some facts but the wound that Rand has, has not been removed and so must play an important part in the final battle.
10
Friar: 2003-07-16
Just two more thoughts:
When the "Taint" is cleared from Saidin there are 4 forces. Saidin, Saidar, Taint and Fain-evil. The same process could be used which cleanses the body (rebirth of Rand perhaps?)
Also from comments about the game called the "the fisher" (a more complex version of stones),I believe that this may not be a "new" scenario. The fisher is holding his wounded side.
However I believe that DO wants the wheel/cycle to end so he must do something that makes this time different. A battle in which the DO must "annihilate" the soul of Rand. Something that he has not done before.
As to the people that do not like the idea of possession, it is just what DO wants not what he gets.
11
Mairashda: 2003-07-16
saidin and saidar are but two aspects of the One Power. they are different and yet they are the same. as for the nature of the taint... it has been argued that the taint might have been fact saidar and not an aspect of the dark one at all. fain does have some special abilities, but they are limited to him. they are not a power on a cosmological scale as the one power which turns the wheel of time or the true power which- what does the true power do anyway apart from giving you those eyes?
12
heronblade: 2003-07-17
the reason everyone thinks rand will die was because one of the prophesys said his blood must be spilt on the rock of SL and we (and the charactors)assumed this would be fatal. what if this is the wounds on his side breaking open and the 'tainted blood' infecting the do's prison. i think rand will blead to death and Ny will heal him from death by linking with one of the male's with healing talents. she always insisted anything can be healed and i think this would tie up the hints and prophesys in a jordanishk way
13
ranman38: 2003-07-17
Very interesting theory. I propose that Rand will die by his own hand. He will do what Lews couldn't; kill himself to stop the bloodshed. Will the DO possess Rand? Don't know, but when Rand kills himself, it will free him of all hindrances. Someone or something will bring him back. Some cataclysmic event to the wheel of time itself. His rebirth will be completely unintended by those that cause it, hoping, in fact, the opposite, his permanent death and the DO's victory at TG. TG is going to be one heck of a ride, with everyone present, and many many things happening at once. You'll see. :)
14
Vaughn882: 2003-07-17
I like your idea, its new, and fresh, but I just don't think its going to happen. I mean, it could, but that just seems a little far-out.
I have only one question: Why do you think that RJ doesn't like the Wheel of Time theory? I mean, he made the whole thing up, I doubt very much that he'd like to see it destroyed or remade. I'm pretty confident that Rand will win ;).
I really like the idea that Rand would kill himself instead of killing everyone else, it would be in his character. A couple of books back I would have agreed with you, but now that Saidin is cleansed, Rand won't go mad (well, any more mad than he is now) so I don't think he'll have to.
I wonder how the world will be broken this time (if it is). Rand and Moiraine are always saying that Rand will break the world no matter what he does, but I wonder how he'll do it.?
15
TheDragon7190: 2003-07-17
that was an original theory, but i dont really agree with it. i just dont like the thought that the last battle will be a struggle for rands body. also rand does not have to die, he could just be wounded and his blood splashes on the rocks of shadar logoth. and i think the Dark one would care less aboutwich body he could get into, as long as it was a body.
16
Niahanchi: 2003-07-18
This a great theory! There has been several hints through out the books that the Dark One wants nothing more then to subvert Rand. Why not take over his body?
Vaughn, Nothing says he has to break the world the same way as he did last time. One could argue that all of the upheaval that has been caused so far has broken the world. I think of the next breaking as Rand changing the world in a major way, not trying to destroy it.
17
Rhodric: 2003-07-18
Vaughn:
I have only one question: Why do you think that RJ doesn't like the Wheel of Time theory? I mean, he made the whole thing up, I doubt very much that he'd like to see it destroyed or remade.
RJ says that time is wheel, past and future are the same depending on which way you face on the wheel. but he then says that perhaps the best thing we got from the ancient greeks is the fact that time is progressive, not cyclic. a timeline not a wheel.
so no he doesn't seem to believe in his own invention.
18
Vaughn882: 2003-07-18
First off, I didnt say Rand had to break the World again this time, or even that he would. It just is said so many times that he will that we are led to beleive it. I personally do not think he will break the world, for one reason, he is no longer going to be mad, and all of the pieces of literature (the poems and such from the fourth age) make it sound like the world has not been broken. Nicola's fortelling about the ashaman balancing the aes sedai and the world not yet done with war also makes it sound like the world will not be broken.
As for RJ not liking the wheel of time, I still doubt that he doesnt like his own creation (or is at least willing to have it destroyed). I've never heard him say the greek thing, but of course I haven't read half the interviews people have had with him. The destruction of the wheel just wouldnt fit into his theory, it just seems that the wheel will never be destroyed. If it were, that would mean the Shadow is victorious, wouldnt it? And it'll kind of suck if this huge series about good guys we've been reading about for the past years loses, so i think it's logical that the good guys are going to win.
19
Particleman: 2003-08-08
I'm not sure how much relevance you should read into this but here is a quote I found form EOTW, Ch.24, pg.351-352 (paperback)
"He found himself staring at his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him, nor seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face."
Make of it what you will.
20
Arbryan: 2004-03-08
The primary assumption is that the DO wants to enter this world. He's currently outside of the pattern and wants to be inside? Does this mean that the Dark One is some sort of dark-ta'veren and will reshape the pattern from within? Or, does he just want to rule the world of man so that he can expand the Blight and rule a bigger Blight that covers the globe? I imagine that he'd never be happy until he can challenge the Creator himself - now where have I heard of that possibility before??
Anyway, let's just go with the assumption that he wants to rule here and needs a body to do it. Let's say that when he's ready/able to get out he takes the best choice - with his first being Rand to attempt to slap the Creator in the face. Wouldn't Nae'Blis (Regent, one who rules or reigns, one who governs a kingdom in the absence or disability of the sovereign). Could he be using that term for his own physical form and in a round-about way stating that the Creator will be absent or disabled? Nae'Blis is Hindu (I think) for devil, so why wouldn't he be refering to himself and using the hunger for power to play the Chosen like pawns for the right to "die so that I can have your body"?
It's also been stated by RJ in interviews that he reverse engineers history, religion, myth, you name it and re-creates his own formula for things. As much as I don't want to believe it, we do know that Rand is supposedly a story representation of Christ, and Nynaeve wants to heal the dead. And she won't be happy until she has healed someone THREE DAYS DEAD (emphasis mine). Now whom better to die for 3 days and be brought back to life than someone that "must die" and is setup to be the "savior" of the world against the DO? I believe that his death and re-birth will either be part of the 'sealing the Bore' ritual and/or that it will allow his wound to be healed. Let's face it, there really does have to be some reason that it has played such a dominant part. It has a purpose yet to be seen.
21
Anubis: 2004-03-08
alrite
this is kinda sick, but i think i know how rand could get rid of his evil wound. it involves taking a huge chunck out of rands side, that would fully remove the wounded portion of rand, (fireball or somthing would do, hell even a sword) Then you have some really really really good healer on hand to heal him, and if everything goes to plan, no more wound.
22
free will: 2005-06-01
Slayer is somehow Luc and Isam, right? So could Rand die in a similar manner as Luc or Isam did and get merged with someone else? And if so could he then get put back into a healed body? There seemed to be some indication about the puppet girl that restoring life is hard, but shuttling a soul back and forth somewhere else might assist with such a plan. I agree that the Rand possession theory doesn't jibe with LTT being turned in other ages unless those ages had no bore.
But isn't the name Dragon going to mean something? No one knows what a Dragon is, so it seems like one has to appear. Which leads me to wonder if we know what happens when LTT dies. In the prologue a mountain sorta covered up his death. Maybe something cool happens when the Dragon dies. Me I didn't think of Rand as a savior, in fact I sorta thought maybe he is the serpent in the world as opposed to the DO being the serpent outside the world or time being a serpent (and for the record I don't think RJ is going to trash the wheel, that's what the DO wants). The serpent within creation introduces evil to the garden. Maybe Rand has to introduce an evil into the world so that DO doesn't gain strength by making pacts and suck. If people have a natural evil, then no one will care about the DO and he can't gain power. So maybe Rand gives birth to dragons that have a physical evil in the world that gobbles up the Trollocs and shadow followers and makes evil worldly but inhuman as opposed to otherwordly but human.
Your theory seems to imply that the Do is defeated, rather than forgotten, and I just don't buy Rand destroying the Wheel and DO utterly. But if you wanted me to accept your theory then if you could tie in explaining why LTT was dubbed the dragon, then that would go a long ways in my book.
23
Callandor: 2005-06-02
**Slayer is somehow Luc and Isam, right? So could Rand die in a similar manner as Luc or Isam did and get merged with someone else? And if so could he then get put back into a healed body? There seemed to be some indication about the puppet girl that restoring life is hard, but shuttling a soul back and forth somewhere else might assist with such a plan. I agree that the Rand possession theory doesn't jibe with LTT being turned in other ages unless those ages had no bore.**
Well, since we really don't know how Slayer was created in the first place, it's all supposition. But since Slayer is so immersed in the Shadow, they are obviously first choice in how to do it, as well as RJ saying that Slayer has many "gifts" from the Dark One.
However, if Slayer were somehow a product of transmigration (which also has a few problems with it, but does remain the most likely course), then Rand's involvement in anything similar is flat out impossible, save if Rand turns to the Dark One and takes vows like the Forsaken did.
**Which leads me to wonder if we know what happens when LTT dies. In the prologue a mountain sorta covered up his death. Maybe something cool happens when the Dragon dies.**
What, a bolt of light bright enough to blind anything around for miles, the creation of a mountain from nowhere, the changing of a river course, and the creation of a 3 or 4 mile island, is ~not~ cool? ;-)
**Your theory seems to imply that the Do is defeated, rather than forgotten, and I just don't buy Rand destroying the Wheel and DO utterly.**
As well you shouldn't, because Rand cannot. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel of Time nor change it's course (ta'veren can only alter the Pattern). The Dark One being outside the Wheel and Pattern, has no physical body to destroy at all, so how would he be destroyed?
24
Hank McCoy: 2005-06-02
Always, always, always do I see in theories that “His blood on the rocks . . .” is a direct reference to Rand's personal blood. Why is that? Time and again prophecy has been shown to be convoluted and misunderstood. So why do some many jump on Rand bleeding at the end?
I have not seen it written here (it has to be somewhere because to me it is very obvious) but could the prophecy actually refer to blood in a familiar form? Enter Luc. There was a reason he was sent to the blight. The same reason Tigraine was sent to the waste by Gitara: crucial to the “Last Battle” and/or the Dragon. Luc is Rand's blood in that he is family (uncle). There is a great purpose to Slayer/Luc than a nifty assassin. Could it be that it is Luc who bleeds on the rocks. Gasp!
