Tamyrlin: 2003-08-21

I disagree with you on the basic premise. Why will the Dark One escape his prison? The initial bore was open for atleast a hundred years before it was sealed, but no Dark One stepped out. Sure, his influence became huge, and he could figuratively touch the world, but I have yet to seen any proof that the DO can actually leave his prison. The seals will break and the DO's influence will be unfettered, and you may even be right about Rand using the Choedan Kal (nice RJ, leaving that one intact), but I don't believe the DO will ever leave his prison.

Anubis: 2003-08-21

2 things make me think that the dark one will escape. fels saying have to clear rubble before you can rebuild, and talking about how no patch would ever be as good as what the creator made. and lanfears comments about how with the choden kal they could challenge the creator. also, if rand just reseals the bore, it will be the exact same deal as the last age. which i hope doesnt happen.

Callandor: 2003-08-21

Clear the rubble... clear the seals, not destroy the entire prison. Seal the patch up with anothr method besides the seals and there most likely wont be a balcklash since the seals themselves were what the DO used to taint saidin.

Deane Aryman: 2003-08-21

I must agree with Tamyrlin on this one, I think there will be this huge battle, involving all the characters we know against the new dreadlords and the forsaken, but no DO. he will be strong but not present in person. but one thing i do belive, Rand will not die, his blood will be spilt on #&%" that place, but anyone can bleed you know, he does not have to die.

Rhodric: 2003-08-22

i don't think Rand will create a new prison. he will just create a much better patch on the existing one, after destroying the last seals.

rubbernilly: 2003-08-22

I think the first sealing of the bore failed because women were not involved.

I think that the prison will be "healed," not that a completely new one will be built, and I think that it will be Rand, Logain, Flinn, Nynaeve, Alivia, Nicola, et al, who are in a circle using both Choeden Kals.

Of course, the female access key was destroyed. The actual sa'angreal remains on Tremalking, but Rand has lost his only key to it. The other one we have seen (in Tanchico) was also damaged. We know that several were made, but that the area where they were being made was overrun by shadow forces before the statues could be delivered, so the statues were hidden.

Personally, I don't think that Rand will find another statue for the women to use. I think that eventually Elayne will get a look at the melted one that Nynaeve used at the Cleansing and reason out how that particular ter'angreal was made. Then she can make another.

Caramoor: 2003-08-22

I don't think he will make a new prison. He will find a better patch. Maybe the prison will be rebuilt in another age (there are 5 we know nothing about).

Also, I think the blood being spilled on Shayol Ghul will be Aiel fighting in the last battle. They are of his blood. Prophecy is so misleading.

Fade: 2003-08-22

Like so many others i have talked to about the prophecy, his blood being spilled on shayol ghoul, i had taken it to mean that Galad will die there. i mean RJ has do do SOMETHING with galad, he has been a freeloader in the books taking up valuably story time.

Secondly, i don't think that elayne will fix or create a new ter'angreal to use the CK. i believe this wont happen because there are only two to three books left. you can count on the majority of one book to be almost completely dedicated to TG, and the book before that the lead up to TG. anyway, thats just my take.

Anubis: 2003-08-22

nevertheless, i think the darkones prescence will be felt. the shadow at noon, twice dawns the day. in the last battle the shadow will fall acrost the pattern. weather its as much as at the end of the AOL, or completely... i dont know.

Friar: 2003-08-23

To the original theory, RJ has spent so much time on plots and sub plots of many characters that it cannot be just Rand alone. The series would have finished ages ago. (pun intended). There was talk of two main ways to counter the DO in the last age. One of sealing and the other of using the choden kal. It may be that this time they will use the second. The idea of Fain is good because the evil of DO had its opposite in cleaning the taint. I think that he has a big part to play later.

Just a side thought: Did the female Ades Sedei know that the DO would have a something like a counter stroke, (or backlash). This could be the message that Cadsuane will give to the Ashamen They held back knowing something..... Interesting...Also if the women were involved would have the female power have been tainted?

Anyway, “to clear rubble before you can rebuild” Clear away the seals/patch before you can close the hole not clear away the prison. Remember also, that when the bore was first drilled there was a “thinness” perceived. It could be that the substance that forms the original prison will be smoothed into the place that now contains the hole.

Than: 2003-08-23

Balefire Beidomon and Mierin they're still alive and they drilled the bore

moridin68: 2003-08-23

What if we saw circles being used the way they were in the AoL ? Asha'man forming circles with Aes Sedai utilizing all known angreal and sa'angreal. I could imagine one such circle containing Rand, Alivia, Nynaeve, Logain, Elayne, Aviendha, and Damer. Now, imagine this group using the following items: Rand with the access key to the CK, Logain with Callandor (he who takes it shall follow after), Nynaeve with the sa'angreal rod from the WT, and the others with other various sa'angreal. With that much of the Power being used, I think we would see a pretty effective seal placed on the DO's prison.

LameAim: 2003-08-24

In reply to Tamyrlin:

"Eventually those loyal to the Dark One felt themselves strong enough to act. In a swift strike they made an attempt to free the Dark One completely an take control" - The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, "The Age of Legends".

Now why would the Friends of the Dark try to free the Dark One if it was impossible?

Callandor: 2003-08-24

**Also if the women were involved would have the female power have been tainted?**

Yes, RJ said that in a recent interview. So the only real thing that could've made it possible for him to taint saidin, since RJ said the specifics have to be just right, are the seals.

**Balefire Beidomon and Mierin they're still alive and they drilled the bore**

Beidomon is dead as far as we know, Lanfear is still alive but if you were able to balefire her back that far, it would most likely destroy the Pattern entirely.

**Logain with Callandor (he who takes it shall follow after)**

Narishima took Callandor from the Stone, and he was in the circle that used it at SL when the taint was cleansed. He is very obviously the one who follows after.

**Now why would the Friends of the Dark try to free the Dark One if it was impossible?**

They think it is possible, and are just utter fools :P.

rubbernilly: 2003-08-25

Than -

If Beidomon was Mierin's male counterpart in the drilling (I don't have the books here to be sure), then I think it is mentioned that he died at the drilling. I tend to think that Mierin lived only because she immediately gave her soul to the DO.

Besides, that much balefire (enough to undo an entire Age of two threads of the pattern) would probably completely unravel the pattern.

Dorindha: 2003-08-25

Rubbernilly - I don't think we know anything about what happened to Beidomen, and Mierin can't have gone to the DO immediately as they didn't know what they had tapped into for some time. Besides which, I think Semirhage was the first one to go to the DO.

Callandor: 2003-08-25

**I don't think we know anything about what happened to Beidomen, and Mierin can't have gone to the DO immediately as they didn't know what they had tapped into for some time.**

Weather he died in the drilling or not, 3000 years will kill any channeler that is not a Forsaken, and none of the 13 had a name with Beidomen in it. He's dead.

Lanfear went over to the Dark after the drilling, but not because of it. It's unlikely that she went over to the Dark right away after, but we will never know unless we are told.

**Besides which, I think Semirhage was the first one to go to the DO.**

Come on... it was Ishy; you know it in your heart ;).

Anubis: 2003-08-26

naaah, callandor it wasnt ishy to go first... hes the betrayer of hope... so that would mean he would have gone when the darkfriends were a force, but it still looked like good was gonna win.

Anubis: 2003-08-26

sorry fer the double.... merin aka lanfear drilled the bore. the dark one knows (well he has to escape sometime so the creator can seal him again) how big of a hole he needs. so between lanfear and the dark one they should have a pretty darn good idea of how far along the freeing is.

Jiana: 2003-08-28

Well....okay, a few misplaced thoughts from my head to your screen. :)

One thing I agree on is that using the seals as focal points for the patch is no good, apparently. Everyone (in the series) wonders why the seals are breaking when they are made of heartstone. Well.. ahem. If you have a hole in your shoe, even if it's patched, doesn't it still get bigger and bigger until eventually your toe pops out? I think that given enough time, the DO could break completely free of the prison. But, thanks to Rand & Co., the DO will not be given enough time.

Also, I thought Beidomon was Aginor? (which is a moot point because Aginor is dead...)

Lastly, I agree that it will take a giant circle to seal it properly. IMO, this circle should include: Rand, Nynaeve, Damer, Jahar, Logain, Elayne, Aviendha, Egwene, and.... possibly, just maybe, Moiraine. Thank you Anubis for more food for thought. :)

Than: 2003-09-08

they arent going to patch it again that wont work cause Shai'tan will just get out again it needs to have the bore removed didnt anyone pay atention to the philosipher who got his nugget split by a gholam. and so what if the pattern needs to be rewoven if the darkone gets free the pattern is fu..screwed anyway its a better choice than Shai'tan's world now isnt it

Cauthan: 2007-02-09

Hi. I'm new here. I've visited this site many times, for a very long time now. Finally decided to sign up.

This is just my two cents. I believe that Rand will not seal the bore, like LTT did. I believe he will undo the bore completely. I can't state any quotes or anything, but all of you know there are many references to the wheel, and what was once, long long ago will come again. Lanfear and company bored a whole in the weave. Not in a patch. Through the weave. If this is to come again, the bore needs to be undone.

So, it goes something like this.

Age 1 - Peaceful

Age 2 - Bore drilled. Craziness Abounds

Age 3 - Relative peace. Dragon Reborn. Tarmon Gaidon, Bore undone.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Davian93: 2007-02-13

The only issue with that theory is that there are 7 Ages not 3.

Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-15

Cauthan:


*** This is just my two cents. I believe that Rand will not seal the bore, like LTT did. I believe he will undo the bore completely. I can't state any quotes or anything, but all of you know there are many references to the wheel, and what was once, long long ago will come again. Lanfear and company bored a whole in the weave. Not in a patch. Through the weave. If this is to come again, the bore needs to be undone. ***

If what you're saying is that the Bore needs to be closed rather than patched, then that is exactly what Herid Fel tells Rand:

---- TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 19 - A Taste of Solitude

"What do you mean it can't be the Last Battle?" Rand tried to keep his voice smooth. Herid always came to the point; you just had to prod him toward it.

"What? Yes, exactly the point. It can't be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One's prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don't think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn't the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

"I don't see... " Rand trailed off.

"Yes, you do. You'd make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One's prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal's weakening. But that doesn't matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One's prison has to be whole again."

"Why? Maybe the next time they'll drill through the patch. Maybe that's how they could do it the last time -- drill into what the Creator made, I mean -- maybe they drilled the Bore through a patch and we just don't know."

Herid shook his head. For a moment he stared at his pipe, once more realizing it was unlit, and Rand thought he might have to recall him again, but instead Herid blinked and went on. "Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One's prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age?" He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. "Umph. No matter now. I'm not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole -- an Age, at least -- that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. Um. I wonder. . ." He peered at his notes and scratched his head, then seemed startled to find he used the hand holding the pen. There was a smudge of ink in his hair. "Any Age where seals weaken must remember the Dark One eventually, because they will have to face him and wall him up again." Sticking his pipe back between his teeth, he tried to make another note without dipping the pen.

----

Notice that Fel doesn't say that the Bore has to be fixed in the current Age, though, just at least an Age before the Third Age comes again.

thethirdsa-angreal: 2007-02-15

How about this approach. all of us Know from Verin's explanation that the DO is sealed in all the worlds and also that there are three constants.

1. The Creator.

2. DO.

3. T'A'R.

We know that T'A'R has a reflection of all the worlds that can be. The last time the bore was sealed LTT sealed it in this world and maybe because of that the reflection of that action is feeble in the other worlds.

We also know from the nature of Mat's Terangreal that the "True Power" can in some ways affect the Channeling of the One Power. Beacuse of which the DO is able to weaken the Ceundillar focus points of the seal on the bore.

Now from the Nature of the Bore we know that it is a hole through the reality of the Web spun by the Wheel of Time. The creator had sealed the DO from the reality in this prison.

Therefore the way to go about sealing the Bore would be to enter the T'A'R and create a shield using Saidar and Saidin to push the reality around the Bore back to what it was.

E114EVA: 2007-02-16

I think Rand will kill the DO

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-02-19

*I think Rand will kill the DO* Inpossible. He's only a man, not the Creator. And, I don't think the Creator could kill the DO either, so how could Rand?

JakOShadows: 2007-02-20

Marie Curie:

I agree with you on that. Actually, I think it is impossible for Rand to complete fix the prison. It will be more like a gradual thing. I don't necessarilly know how, but that's seems to make the most sense to me.

Eva:

The dragon is mortal and the DO is a God. the dragon cannot kill the DO. Otherwise, it probably would have been done before. And there wouldn't be a DO.

Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-21

thethirdsa-angreal:
*** We also know from the nature of Mat's Terangreal that the "True Power" can in some ways affect the Channeling of the One Power. Beacuse of which the DO is able to weaken the Ceundillar focus points of the seal on the bore. ***

Could you please explain how Mat's ter'angreal is related to the True Power and how that affects channeling the One Power? I don't follow what you mean. Mat's ter'angreal stops direct weaves of the One Power. We don't know whether Mat's ter'angreal stops direct weaves of the True Power.

Aeonix: 2011-01-10

All this talk of circles and who would form them with no idea how the bore would be sealed? It has been theorized that the pattern is effectively a layer of order sealing away the other half of the yin/yang (ancient Aes Sedai symbol) - Chaos. The DO can touch the world because the pattern is thin; is essentially antimatter made conscious if you want to think in terms of physics.

Thus, the way to seal the DO away again is to un-thin the pattern. Logically, it follows that the only person who can see the pattern beyond the pale of the mortal world is Min.

I don't know how the pattern will be sealed or who will be involved but any theory involving un-thinning the pattern to seal the DO and it's chaos back behind the weave must necessarily involve Min.

Lorcin: 2011-01-10

sealing the bore might not end the conflict as the age of legends didn't end until the dragon (the champion of the light) was killed and that was a draw. therefore the Rand must do something completly different. the dark one keeps the wheel turning (great serpent metaphor) and the wheel is like that game (forget the name sorry) so maybe he needed to kill the Shadows champion e.g. Mordin though he did kill ishy a couple of times so.... but that would only be a draw in favour of the light and not a true win and theirs a lot of this will be the last age stuff going around. So.... I go no more ideas it's up to the rest of you.

ChubbyAiel: 2011-01-11

"the dark one keeps the wheel turning (great serpent metaphor)"

I thought the One Power drives the Wheel. Presumably the Dark One wants to destroy the Wheel because he wants to destroy the Pattern, and the Wheel spins the Pattern. The Great Serpent isn't a metaphor for the Dark One, but for Time itself.