hivan and Calian
by Grady: 2004-02-06 | Not yet rated
In CoS Mat is remembering seeing Birgitte with the heroes of the Horn at Falme, and I noticed it also said:
"Artur Hawkwing himself led, tall and hook-nosed, and behind came the rest, little more than a hundred. So few, but all those the Wheel would spin out again and again to guide the Pattern, to make legend and myth. Mikel of the Pure Heart, and Shivan the Hunter behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side. Amaresu, with the Sword of the Sun glowing in her hands, and Paedrig, the golden-tongued peacemaker, and there, carrying the silver bow with which she never missed."
My sister and I have been fighting about this for awhile, she says that Rand and Elayne's twin children will be Shivan and Calian reborn and herald the new Age(thus the Andor royal line being key to victory, blah, blah....)
I say that Shivan and Calian will appear and herald the new age when Mat blows the Horn at the LB, because I don't even think Elayne will have the kids till after TG. But we both really hope they both show up at TB since it would be a shame to mention them and the end of an Age and then not have them there. Just wanted to hear some other opinions...thanks.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-02-21
Grady, I agree with you. I don't think there is time for the birth before the LB, so I don't believe these children will play a part, nor that will we ever know if they are reborn heroes.
2
Elder Haman: 2004-02-21
Maybe they don't have to actually do anything- just their birth comes at the End of the Age and their task is to help in building the New Age
3
Callandor: 2004-02-21
**I say that Shivan and Calian will appear and herald the new age when Mat blows the Horn at the LB, because I don't even think Elayne will have the kids till after TG.**
But do you agree that her children will be the rebirth of Shivan and Calian?
If so, then read this:
**Q: When a soul is reborn, at what point does it enter the body?
RJ: Hmm... I'd have to say as a fetus. When the body becomes capable of sustaining life.**
And...
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 14 - What Wise Ones Know
"No more than breathing does." Monaelle let the weave vanish with a grin. "You have two. It is too early to say whether they are girls are boys, but they are healthy, and so are you."**
Two fetuses in Elayne, going by the interview, two souls are already in her womb, hence if they are Shivan and Calian they are already there.
**My sister and I have been fighting about this for awhile, she says that Rand and Elayne's twin children will be Shivan and Calian reborn and herald the new Age(thus the Andor royal line being key to victory, blah, blah....)**
How is this? Rand is the key to victory, not Elayne; you know, being the Dragon Reborn might be a bit more helpful then a pregnant queen (in transit ;)).
**I don't think there is time for the birth before the LB**
Two more books to go. Between TGH and TDR, almost a year passes in time. I think a birth is very probable, and am counting on it :).
I also believe, more specifically, that Elayne will give birth to her children right as Rand dies in the Last Battle (you could take this as "twice dawns", two children, but I myself haven't decided on that little tidbit ;)).
4
Zaela Sedai: 2004-02-22
I think that the twins being Shivan and Calian is a great theory. RJ loves to forshadow everything and leave little clues that we don't think are important. It would be a great way to tie them back into the story. I also think that Elayne's children will be born before the end of the series, and maybe even Aviendha's four, who knows.
5
Grady: 2004-02-23
I forgot about the distance of time that passes with TGH and TDR so I suppose there could be enough time for them to be born before TG. I can see how your idea about the babies already having Shivan and Calian's souls works too, but I still think they will be too young to make any big impact during the last battle, I can see how Shivan could be a herald by just being born but what about Calian? Wouldn't she be too young to choose anything? And what do you guys think she's supposed to choose anyway? Just thinking about it gets me all giddy inside if they do show up.
6
Callandor: 2004-02-23
**I can see how your idea about the babies already having Shivan and Calian's souls works too, but I still think they will be too young to make any big impact during the last battle, I can see how Shivan could be a herald by just being born but what about Calian?**
There is going to be an entire Age (and many more) after the Last Battle; the Heroes aren't reborn just for fighting.
7
charliec: 2004-02-24
although, the transition between ages doesn't necessarily have a sharp cut-off... the new age, and new sets of nations and cultures may not begin to emerge for many years after TG (eg. the breaking of the world went on for quite an extended period of time) Shivan and Calian could be born around the time of the the Last Battle, and yet grow up in time to be prominent at the actual end of the age, and herald the beginning of the next...
8
Daekyras: 2004-02-25
As the quote says, there are about 100 heroes of the horn. Do they all have to be at the last battle? Probably not.
It would be cool to think of the twins as Shivan and Calian but for all we know it could be any sister and brother- Gawyn and Elayne, Bodewhin and Mat etc- they don't have to wear masks, and Mat or gawyn could probably be referred to as hunters ( gawyn- hunting for his mother, Mat- for his Sanity!) and it is not inconcievable that Elayne would have to make a choice( children or rand).
I just don't think there is enough evidence.
Cool idea though!
9
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-25
Daekyras, it can't be just any brother and sister. Shivana nd Calian were with the heros at Falme. It would have to be someone who was not born at the time of Falme and Mat and Bode, Elayne and Gawyn, etc do not pass this test.
10
timetorollthedice: 2004-02-25
Keep in mind that TG could come and go and in just a few paragraphs, RJ could come up with something like "And the Children of the Dragon Reborn grew strong in station and in the power, as their mothers did. As they took there places to herald the coming of the fourth age, they were like there father in power and glory".
They don't have to be in this story. This story is about Rand more than anyone else. I don't expect RJ to write 6 more anthologies expounding the deeds of the heroes from each age. He can tell us that they did do or will do great things and let our imaginations take off.
Offshoot: Has there ever been any talk to anyone's knowledge if, after completing the series, RJ will open up the WOT series to other authors, writing for different ages?
11
Daekyras: 2004-02-26
Good spot dragonscepter! I was just trying to say that there is no evidence that Elaynes children are the heroes. They could be anyone, below the age of 1 year old.
12
Callandor: 2004-02-27
**I was just trying to say that there is no evidence that Elaynes children are the heroes. They could be anyone, below the age of 1 year old.**
No, there is no real proof, but it is more of a convient tie in.
We know the Age is ending, so they will be born soon.
We an important ruler and main character pregnant with twins, which could be a male and a female (that is also what Elayne is hoping for), which are the children of the Dragon Reborn.
We know one of the Heroes, Calian, is called the chooser, so odds are that she has to choose something (giant leap of logic there ;)), and by the title given to her, and possibly the entire reason she is a Hero, it most likely is an important choice and could more likely come to someone of power or presteige then the common person (although it isn't set in stone of course ;)). In the future, if Elayne's children turn out to be Shivan and Calian reborn, Calian would be the heir to one of the most powerful countries in the world. It does give quite a bit of presteige.
It's not proof, just more ooo that meshes nicely into it.
13
Zanion: 2004-03-02
Maybe it is just me, but I don't even remember Shivan and Calian in any of the novels or being spoken of at the end of TGH, could anyone give me some background as to who they are and their powers? Thanks.
14
Callandor: 2004-03-02
From the WoT Encyclopaedia:
**Shivan the Hunter
One of the Heroes of the Horn. He is brother to Calian the Chooser.
Chronology
TGH,Ch47 - Mat blows the Horn of Valere and calls forth the Heroes of the Horn including Shivan the Hunter.
Other References
ACoS,Ch21 - Mat recognizes Birgitte and recalls seeing her with the other Heroes of the Horn including Shivan the Hunter.**
The information is the exact same for Shivan the Hunter, just that it is switched genders :)
So, not that much to go on.
15
Davian93: 2004-03-02
****Maybe it is just me, but I don't even remember Shivan and Calian in any of the novels or being spoken of at the end of TGH, could anyone give me some background as to who they are and their powers? Thanks.****
At the end of TGH as mentioned above...
Artur Hawkwing himself led, tall and hook-nosed, and behind came the rest, little more than a hundred. So few, but all those the Wheel would spin out again and again to guide the Pattern, to make legend and myth. Mikel of the Pure Heart, and Shivan the Hunter behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side. Amaresu, with the Sword of the Sun glowing in her hands, and Paedrig, the golden-tongued peacemaker, and there, carrying the silver bow with which she never missed."
16
jason wolfbrother: 2004-03-03
Zanion *Maybe it is just me, but I don't even remember Shivan and Calian in any of the novels or being spoken of at the end of TGH, could anyone give me some background as to who they are and their powers? Thanks.*
here is the quote: not from TGH but from CoS Ch. 21 Swovan Night
"and Shivan the Hunter behind his black mask. He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side."
this is Mat's flashback to when he sounded the horn and first saw Birgitte. He is remembering that she is the Birgitte from the stories.
17
a dragonburned fool: 2004-03-05
I don't believe that the Last Battle and the End of 3 Age would be one and the same event. It's not the case with the end of 2Age: the 2Age Last Battle (LTT's strike at Shayol Ghul) took place more then century before the Age ended, for the Age ended when the Destruction of the world ended. So after every impotrant event that changes the time-count (Trolloc wars, Hawkwing's Empire), there is a dark period of time, nobody knows how much, and the next hystorical period comes after that. The same would be IMO with the end of 3 Age. Some time after the Last Battle (according to Nicola's fortelling) there would be more 3Age events (war with Seanchan?) and the Age would end not sooner then everybody who remembered the pre-Tarmon-Gaidon-time dies. So Shivan and Calian have yet to grow, they will be just in age, when the age would be to be changed.
18
Unicorn: 2004-03-21
Did anyone consider that Melaine's twins could be Shivan and Calian? this would also alieviate some of the time issues brought up earlier as Malaine was preganant before Elayne
19
Callandor: 2004-03-21
**Did anyone consider that Melaine's twins could be Shivan and Calian? this would also alieviate some of the time issues brought up earlier as Malaine was preganant before Elayne**
No, her children are definately not Shivan and Calian. Melaine is going to have twin girls "like mirrors" while Shivan and Calian are brother and sister.
