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wice dawns the day of the Last Battle
by Jes: 2004-03-31 | 2 out of 10 (2 votes)
Previous Categories: The Last Battle
Rand arrives at the last battle (or maybe next-to-last battle) at sunrise (“he who comes with the dawn” probably means more than exiting Rhuidean). He is then killed by someone (it doesn't matter who).
Then someone else (most likely Logain) kills Rand's murderer with BALEFIRE. Whoever this is uses enough balefire that time reverses itself so that (1) Rand is alive again (“to live you must die”) and (2) Twice Dawns the Day!
(Notice that if it is Logain who balefires Rand's killer, Logain would get the “glory to come” for killing one of the Chosen and saving Rand.)
Jordan is too twisty for me to think that I'm 100 percent right, but at the same time I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone else suggest this balefire angle. In some ways it seems too simplistic even to me.
(If someone already posted this, I apologize, I'm not trying to steal your idea. I did look for it among all the theories, but didn't see it. )
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2004-05-22
This is a fun idea, but I don't think it really explains "twice dawns the day." Balefire does not push time back, it burns out a thread, replacing other threads. The day would have no reason to dawn twice; Rand would simply be alive. However, having said that, it does work well with the "to live you must die" line.
Callandor: 2004-05-23
Have to think of the strain on the Pattern.
If Rand dies, the Pattern wove it to be so. It moves on, the Last Battle continues after his death, until Logain balefires the killer. Then the Pattern has to compensate for the entire last sequence of events, which surrounded a pivotal moment in history. Quite strenuous.
Rand dies. Leave it at that.
charliec: 2004-05-23
Logain (or is it Taim?) is said to have held the sun in place while he defeated an opponent during his false dragon days... bizarre channeling could cause something like two dawns...
Jes: 2004-05-23
Tamyrlin, you are right, of course, about Balefire not turning back time -- I'm not sure what I was thinking!
I guess the only way both halves of my theory would work is if the chosen who killed Rand had also caused darkness to fall somehow. Obviously. no one could cause a solar eclipse, but perhaps could cause Dragonmount to erupt. If the balefire burned out their thread, then the day could dawn twice. (That might also counter the arguments of the anti-eruption faction who think such an event would destroy half the people in Randland.)
Anubis: 2004-05-24
said it before and ill say it again.
1. normal dawn.
2. shadow streaches across pattern. night again.
3. shadow is beaten and reimprisoned.
4. 3 results in a "second dawn" of sorts.
and why would balefire make time reverse? there has been no indication, in fact quite the opposite, that time travel is possible.
iced: 2004-05-25
my theory behind this is as per Mins Viewing of rand and LTT one of them dies and the other one takes over completly is that rand is taken over by ltt somehow dies and rand is awakend so it is the same day but 2 personalalities awakin thus twice dawns this day
Oatman: 2004-05-26
I always figured twice dawns the day meant that the day dawned, then the DO's prison was destroyed, who blankets the world in darkness, which is broken by the second dawn, when Rand reinprisons him and light is restored to the world.
a dragonburned fool: 2004-06-03
No, Jes, balefire would not cause the feeling of two dawns by anybody, maybe except the one who did the balefire. In all the examples of balefire usage, the past event is not experienced by anybody, only the contemporary consequences change. The observers don't feel the critical event to occur twice, they only are confused about their memories, nothing more.
FerDeLance: 2004-06-03
Personally i think that "Twice dawns the day of the Last Battle" can be taken literally. To reseal the bore (or less likely destroy the DO) is going to take massive amounts of power. We know that Rand is going to break the world again. Last time the breaking occured when all the male aes sedai went mad (not likely to happen like this again though). This time the re-sealing of the bore is going to be such a massive event its going to cause the world to shift on its axis's, breaking the world. Meaning that physically the day is going to dawn twice.
(The rest i've sort of made up as i go along).I've been thinking about LT & the other voice in his head. The time now is the 3rd age, therfore maybe Rand is the 3rd age dragon, LT the 2nd age dragon and the other voice is the 1st age dragon (the original?). So what i'm saying is that when the dragon is reborn, the souls of the other dragons are reborn within him.
I've noticed that LT seems to be having greater & greater influence over Rand. Rand is getting harder & harder, he is becoming like LT when he shot off to seal the bore at the end of the 2nd age. Cadsuane has to make Rand laugh, i think this has to do with Rand realising that hes not LT.
During the Last Battle, at some point Rands blood is going to be spilt over the rocks. When this happens LT is going to grab hold of the source and reseal the bore. Problem is LT's mad and goes to far. Alivia has to step in and kill the 'Dragon Reborn'. Because Cadsuane made Rand laugh, somehow he can help as well, otherwise all would have been lost.
The 'Dragon(s) Reborn' are killed, but Rand lives. The reason Rand lives is going to be connected to his triple bonds. Theres got to be a reason why he is bonded to 3 people & we know bonding people wasn't around in the Age of Legends (Forsaken POV in one of the books?). Somehow the love of his 3 wifes through the bond is going to draw Rand back from the abyss.
Thoughts? I like the first bit, but can see you all ripping the rest to shreads!
Brendan Reborn: 2004-06-03
Whoa, hold the phone.
**The rest i've sort of made up as i go along).I've been thinking about LT & the other voice in his head. The time now is the 3rd age, therfore maybe Rand is the 3rd age dragon, LT the 2nd age dragon and the other voice is the 1st age dragon (the original?). So what i'm saying is that when the dragon is reborn, the souls of the other dragons are reborn within him.**
Yes the soul of the dragon is reborn, so in essence it is LTT, for it is the same soul. By the way, the first age would be the AOL I beleive, and the second age, well that is Hawkings time, thus bringing us to the third age. Only 2 dragons. Maybe you meant turnings of the wheel. But that still wouldn't explain LTT being the second dragon.
**he 'Dragon(s) Reborn' are killed, but Rand lives. The reason Rand lives is going to be connected to his triple bonds. Theres got to be a reason why he is bonded to 3 people & we know bonding people wasn't around in the Age of Legends (Forsaken POV in one of the books?). Somehow the love of his 3 wifes through the bond is going to draw Rand back from the abyss.**
Actually, they bonded people all the time in the AOL, usually their Aes Sedai counterpart.
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-06-03
Rand would have hundreds of voices in his head if each dragon was in his head (Hawkwing said something like "I've rode with you times beyond counting , and rode against you the same amount of times"
Callandor: 2004-06-03
**We know that Rand is going to break the world again. Last time the breaking occured when all the male aes sedai went mad (not likely to happen like this again though). This time the re-sealing of the bore is going to be such a massive event its going to cause the world to shift on its axis's, breaking the world. Meaning that physically the day is going to dawn twice.**
Disagree. Rand's breaking of the world is much more metaphorical, then physical. Rand has broken the bonds of nations, shattered customs, split nations and people, merged bitter enemies together, and created a powerhouse of male balance against Aes Sedai.
Tell me that is not a breaking of the world.
**So what i'm saying is that when the dragon is reborn, the souls of the other dragons are reborn within him.**
No, Rand IS the Dragon soul reborn in a new body. There is one soul, different reincarnations, different personalities upon every rebirth. Rand is LTT's soul reborn; LTT was the Dragon reincarnation's soul before that reborn; the Fourth Age Dragon will be Rand's soul reborn. But they are not seperate souls. They are one soul, the Dragon's soul, reborn, again and again.
**Cadsuane has to make Rand laugh, i think this has to do with Rand realising that hes not LT.**
I think that Rand yells constantly at LTT in his own mind, that he knows quite well that he is not LTT.
Also, LTT has most likely become more present, powerful, defined, "sane", with more and more of the taint that has entered Rand (personal opinion not proven fact; just strongly implied ;)).
**The 'Dragon(s) Reborn' are killed, but Rand lives. The reason Rand lives is going to be connected to his triple bonds. Theres got to be a reason why he is bonded to 3 people & we know bonding people wasn't around in the Age of Legends (Forsaken POV in one of the books?). Somehow the love of his 3 wifes through the bond is going to draw Rand back from the abyss.**
To be technical, Rand has 4 bonds on him. Also, the whole Rand survives due to bonds is a load of crap.
Thing I never get is why people place the importance on Rand living. There is nothing for the Dragon to do after the Last Battle. Nothing. Rand certainly doesn't want to continue living the life he has now, even though he deeply loves Elayne, Min, and Avi.
The entire series, the entire battle between the Dragon and the Shadow, has been focused on one thing: The Dragon's soul. Nothing else. Everything else is a means to an end. The Last Battle is just the opprotune moment to try and do this; how often does the thing you want come directly to you?
The Shadow wants Rand's soul, so that the Dragon cannot be reborn any more, so they can destroy it, corrupt it, use it, whatever, they just want it "gone" away from interfering. No Dragon soul, then the Dark has nothing to worry about. The Dark One does not say, "My ancient enemy, Birgitte," or Cain, or Hawkwing; he says "My ancient enemy, the Dragon."
No Dragon to fight the Dark One, then no matter how long it takes, the Light is screwed. Eventually, the Dark One will break free.
The key to this, is Rand's soul. There are many ways to destroy it or get it out of the way. Balefire is the most common, although it might not be perment (RJ hasn't confirmed since he has confabulated his answers), but if the Dark One, or one of his servants (Forsaken), takes his soul, they win.
Prime example of this:
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 55 - What Is Written in Prophecy
Slowly the shadow descended, resolving into Ba'alzamon, clothed in dead black, like a Myrddraal's black. Yet even that was not so dark as the shadow that clung to him. He hung in the air, two spans above the floor, glaring at Rand with a rage as fierce as his eyes. "Twice in this life I have offered you the chance to serve me living." Flames leaped in his mouth as he spoke, and every word roared like a furnace. "Twice you have refused, and wounded me. Now you will serve the Lord of the Grave in death. *Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer. Die, Rand al'Thor. It is time for you to die! I take your soul!*"
As Ba'alzamon put forth his hand, Rand pushed himself up, threw himself desperately toward Callandor, still glittering and flashing in midair. He did not know whether he could reach it, or touch it if he did, but he was sure it was his only chance.
*Ba'alzamon's blow struck him as he leapt, struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away.* Rand screamed. *He felt as if he were collapsing like an empty sack, as if he were being turned inside out.* The pain in his side, the wound taken at Falme, was almost welcome, something to hang onto, a reminder of life. His hand closed convulsively. On Callandor's hilt.
He turned to face Ba'alzamon. The tearing within him had ceased as soon as his hand touched Callandor. Only an instant had passed, yet it seemed to have lasted forever. "You will not take my soul," he shouted. "This time, I mean to finish it once and for all! I mean to finish it now!"**
Then later in the chapter:
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 55 - What Is Written in Prophecy
Water filled the halls from top to bottom, thick and black as the bottom of the sea, choking off breath. He made it air again, unknowingly, and ran on, and suddenly the air gained weight until it seemed every inch of his skin supported a mountain, squeezing in from all directions. In the instant before he was crushed to nothingness he chose tides out of the flood of Power raging through him - he did not know how or which or why; it was too fast for thought or knowing - and the pressure vanished. He pursued Ba'alzamon, and the very air was abruptly solid rock encasing him, then molten stone, then nothing at all to fill his lungs. The ground beneath his boots pulled at him as if every pound suddenly weighed a thousand, then all weight vanished so that a step left him spinning in midair. *Unseen maws gaped to rip his mind from his body, to tear away his soul.* He sprang each trap and ran on; what Ba'alzamon twisted to destroy him, he made right without being aware of how. Vaguely he knew that in some way he had brought things back into natural balance, forced them into line with his own dance down that impossibly thin divide between existence and nothingness, but that knowledge was distant. All his awareness lay in the pursuit, the hunt, the death that must end it.**
There is one true safe place for the Dragon's soul: the soul pool.
If anyone believes the Dark One can take any soul he likes, please rid it of your thoughts. He would've taken the Dragon's soul first chane he got, anytime he got, this Age, Second Age, First Age, any Age. Just once, and it's gone.
Once Rand dies, he soul goes right to the soul pool, to safety. To be reborn again, and again, to constantly fight the Dark One.
Can't make my opinion any clearer then this.
Callandor: 2004-06-03
**Actually, they bonded people all the time in the AOL, usually their Aes Sedai counterpart.**
No, the Forsaken knew nothing of Bonding. They scorn the 3rd Agers for figuring out what they couldn't do.
Davian93: 2004-06-03
****Yes the soul of the dragon is reborn, so in essence it is LTT, for it is the same soul. By the way, the first age would be the AOL I beleive, and the second age, well that is Hawkings time, thus bringing us to the third age. Only 2 dragons. Maybe you meant turnings of the wheel. But that still wouldn't explain LTT being the second dragon.****
Just to clear something up here. The 2nd Age was the Age of Legends. Hawkwing lived in the 3rd age approximately 1,000 years before Rand and everyone else. LTT was 2nd age Dragon and Rand is 3rd age Dragon. If there was a 1st age dragon, there is no evidence either way on that or if that is the 3rd voice in Rands head.
Anubis: 2004-06-04
callandor, i agree with you except for one thing. you seem (just the way it comes across, feel free to clarify) to think that the next dragon will be rand althor reborn. or the dragon reborn. it will not. at least that is my understanding. LTT was the dragon. not the dragon reborn. and the next one will be as well. rand is an anomoly.
: 2004-06-04
"Disagree. Rand's breaking of the world is much more metaphorical, then physical. Rand has broken the bonds of nations, shattered customs, split nations and people, merged bitter enemies together, and created a powerhouse of male balance against Aes Sedai.
Tell me that is not a breaking of the world."
I've always believed that for Rand to save the world he must break it (at the Last Battle). The first breaking must have been like the worst nuclear holocaust imaginable. Whole citys were destroyed, mountain ranges levelled, oceans created & evaporated. Out of the population, a bare handful survived (say 10,000 or something). The AOL was no more, hardly any records survived. Thats what i would describe as a Breaking.
I wouldn't describe "the bonds of nations, shattered customs, split nations and people, merged bitter enemies together.." as a breaking. Artur Hawkwing united all the western nations, sent armies across the Aryth ocean. On his death, there was war upon war (lasting 100 years). So great was the destruction that only fragmentary records survived. Metaphorically the life & death of Artur Hawkwing (who was only ta'veren) could be described as a 'breaking' of the world. Yet it was not thought of, or described as another Breaking.
The wheel of time turns... the Breaking is going to be a catastrophic physical event which occurs during (or just after) the Last Battle. The Aiel are going to be in the front line (they wouldn't have it any other way) and are going to be obliterated like LTTs 20,000 soldiers originally.
I like your argument for Rand dying, but really don't wont to believe it, because for me that wouldn't be the right ending. I had meant mulitple personalitys rather than souls, but i had just worked a 15 hour nightshift!
SassAndSweet: 2004-06-05
..Back to the "Twice dawns the day of the Last Battle" bit..
What if... the battle begins at Falme or somewhere else along the EAST COAST at dawn, and then Rand travels to somewhere like Carhein (almost 3000 miles away according to the map) - who's flag just so happens to be the Rising Sun, and just in time to finish something up as the SUN RISES for a 2nd time? - Just a thought...
Callandor: 2004-06-06
**you seem (just the way it comes across, feel free to clarify) to think that the next dragon will be rand althor reborn.**
Not in the least. Rand al'Thor is the body the Dragon soul is in. The Fourth Age Dragon will have a different body, same soul. His name will be Jal Mertin or something. Not Rand al'Thor. Not Lews Therin.
Callandor: 2004-06-06
**I wouldn't describe "the bonds of nations, shattered customs, split nations and people, merged bitter enemies together.." as a breaking. Artur Hawkwing united all the western nations, sent armies across the Aryth ocean. On his death, there was war upon war (lasting 100 years). So great was the destruction that only fragmentary records survived. Metaphorically the life & death of Artur Hawkwing (who was only ta'veren) could be described as a 'breaking' of the world. Yet it was not thought of, or described as another Breaking.**
It's funny that the second to last chapter, when Rand reveils the Aiel past, is called "A Breaking in the Three-Fold Land." Yet, there isn't any physical breaking.
**I like your argument for Rand dying, but really don't wont to believe it, because for me that wouldn't be the right ending.**
I've never understood this take on it. Rand dies in the most honorable way, for the best reason. There is no purpose whatsoever for the Dragon after the battle.
All other endings, really make no sense at all.
Rand becomes a beggar - what about his wives? Or his 4 bonds? His children?
Rand goes into the Waste with Avi, Min, and Elayne - what about Elayne being Queen of Andor?
Rand goes on to rule the Asha'man and Aes Sedai as Tamyrlin - What about Egwene and her (arrogant, annoying) view on that? Or all the other Aes Sedai, being ruled by a man? What about Logain?
Rand dies and is Healed by Nynaeve - this one I hate the most, and is, in my mind, the dumbest. It can't happen. You cannot Heal someone who is dead. Mat came back to life only by balefire; not Healing. And that balefire event was planned by the Wheel (how else did the Finn know of it in TSR?). Rand couldn't do it with Callandor, yet Nynaeve is supposed to just pop up with a mystical new weave to do it. So, then everyone becomes an immortal, as long as there is an Aes Sedai around?
The ending makes the most sense. It's sad, dramatic, and to some anti-climactic. But it ties up a lot, while not raising so many questions about what the hell happens afterwards.
Jes: 2004-06-06
SassAndSweet -- So simple and yet so elegantly obvious! As author of the original theory, I yield to your interpretation.
Jes: 2004-06-07
To continue, I would guess the day of battle starts in eastern Randland like Camelyn or the White Tower, then continues at Tarabon or somewhere, but same idea ...
Nanook Treesinger: 2004-06-07
Okay... just taking a stab at an extremely simple explanation.
Could "Twice dawns the day..." simply mean that the Last Battle will last for an entire day? Something like this:
The last battle starts sometime in the night/early morning before dawn... the battle proceeds through dawn of day #1... The battle continues throughout the day and into the night... the battle continues through dawn of day #2.
Voila... 2 dawns.
*shrug* maybe I don't analyze things enough, but that's the picture I've had in my head as I've read the series through several times.
Traveller: 2005-08-04
Right now, I am eally annoyed for reading all of this, coz I was really into balefire bringing Rand back, but all you party poopers proved me wrong, darnit!
Just to scrabble a bit in the dirt with my fingernails before I fall from the cliff, maybe, just maybe, the day could dawn twice, just for Rand: kinda like he was killed at dawn, then he comes alive again and its like a second dawn?..?...??.? No? I thought not. That really sucks.
Traveller: 2005-08-04
Actually, I have just had an idea- maybe the twice day dawning thing doesn't discount the balefire theory, so it could still happen, it just isn't a way to prove it. Yay! Maybe it still can happen!
timmah3209: 2005-08-04
I don't know if anyone has ever said this, but on my third re-read of the series this began to be the impression that I got: Rand goes to the last battle, "dies," then Logain takes up his sword so to speak, and wins the day. Rand doesn't actually die however. I wish I had marked the quotes to support this, but basically he pretends he dies in order to live on in obscurity after the Last Battle with Avi, Min, and Elayne.
Dezza: 2005-08-05
Just somethng on Balefire I noticed.
When Asmodean(sp) is struck by lightning in Caemlyn and dies, Rand uses balefire to kill Rahvin(sp). Anyway he thinks that something odd has happened and there are a lot of people who express surprise at him being alive.
I thought from this that Balefire only affected certain parts of the event but memories survived.
There is Mat and the Darkhounds in Rhuidean...
Ishamael: 2005-08-05
"Thing I never get is why people place the importance on Rand living. There is nothing for the Dragon to do after the Last Battle. Nothing. Rand certainly doesn't want to continue living the life he has now, even though he deeply loves Elayne, Min, and Avi."
ok..first...something I picked up in biology long time ago...the meaning of life is to reproduce at least two offspring..so the race can continue on. Yea...Rand is a LITTLE different..he is trying to make it possible so every other human can continue to reproduce as is...Rand fails..the DO makes the world in his own image. But after Rand saves and breaks the world...who are you to say there is nothing left for him after...the man's gonna have kids...those are plenty of reasons for him to want to remain alive...when yur a father..there isn't anything more important than yur kid....but don't get me wrong..i also think Rand will die..will make for a better ending in my opinion..but thats just it..it is MY OPINION that he will die...I am not putting down anyone who thinks he will live..if he does..more power to him and those who knew he would survive..but my point is..he does have a reason to stay alive...yet he most likely will not..but ya never know...and for anyone who puts down anyones theories and opinions is just a close minded individual...and should be tuned out..opinionated people always think they are right even when proven wrong just out of pure stubborness
Richard: 2005-08-05
I'm with callandor on this one. The second down thing is an obvious reference to the re-imprisonment of the DO. Is a common enough reference in fantasy and makes perfect sense. As for to live you must die, once I accepted Rand's fate, it became obvious: Rand MUST die for the dragon to be reborn in a future age. That was what LTT realised in his final moment of sanity, he denied his soul to the shadow by dying, so he (as dragon) could live again. Makes perfect sense (I think).
Traveller: 2005-08-05
Yeah, I favoured that idea for a while, timmah, and kinda still think it might happen, but it does seem a bit too fairytale ending- he fakes his death somehow, then pretends to be someone else and lives happily ever after... with the ability to channel saidin, three wives, dragons on his arms, herons on his hands... etc, etc.
I still think it might happen, but only if he goes to live with the Aiel (they accept multiple wives, and people tend to have a thing for running away to the aiel (I mean Rand's mum did it)) and not hiding Rand's identity, coz the Aiel treat him like equals anyway, and he helps the remnant of a remnant build up an Aiel society again... OK, I like that!
Well, I guess I hadn't thought of that before... mybe I do like it more than the balefire theory... Oh, I'm feeling really indecisive today... Maybe I'll make up my mind tomorrow.
wolfbrother369: 2005-08-05
I know this probably sounds simplistic but couldn't it just mean that the Last Battle will last for two days.
Yaga Shura: 2005-08-05
"basically he pretends he dies in order to live on in obscurity after the Last Battle with Avi, Min, and Elayne. "
But both Elayne and Aviendha will have duties they have to perform. If Elayne was going to just walk away from the throne of Andor for the love of Rand al'Thor, she wouldn't be going to such huge lengths to get it back.
JakOShadows: 2005-08-05
The fact that Rand is the dragon reborn would not allow him to stay in the pattern. You still got to remember that he will twist the pattern around him. He has to die for everything to comeback aright.
And while there might be some physical destruction involved with the breaking, there are a lot of new cultures coming together in Randland that weren't around in Hawkwing's time. There is the Seanchan, Athan Mierre, Randlanders, Aes Sedai and Asha'man. There are so many differences in their beliefs on channeling alone that it could create complete chaos, not to mention all the civil wars that are happening on Randland and now Seanchan. It just seems like the world has been turned into greater chaos than before. And maybe the physical breaking could be created by the battles between all the channelers too. The point I was trying to make is this cocktail mixture of cultures is far more volatile than after the reign of Hawkwing. This alone could break the world.
therobotbadger: 2005-08-07
I was about to reply to Anubis by saying that there's no indication that a ta'veren can stop being ta'veren... However, I think I might remember a quote that bears on this issue (if anyone wants to search, it's likely in one of the first 6 books, as I've been rereading and I'm on aCoS). One of the characters, when speaking about ta'veren being ta'veren says, I think, that the Pattern weaves itself around them 'for a time'. Again, this isn't concrete because I have nothing to back it up except my gut, but this leads me to believe that perhaps ta'veren can, after their tasks are completed, stop being ta'veren. In my mind, it opens a possibility for Rand to survive TG and settle down as an average Joe...
Or average Joe incredibly powerful channeller...
With three wives.
I don't think that he will, however. I always interpreted the Aelfinn's answer to Rand of "To live you must die" as meaning, "If you ever want to be reborn, you've got to die in the Last Battle" or "If you don't die, the Pattern will be destroyed and you'll never live again". So, while I now think it is more possible than I did before, I think Rand is not making it out of this one.
As to the "Twice dawns the day", I tend to favor the idea that the Shadow will block out the sun and then be pushed back, but I hope for something more dramatic. Perhaps in the process of breaking the world, the planet's rotation could be changed in such a way (reversed, or perhaps sped up) so that dawn comes twice in one day. I think that the idea that the Last Battle takes place over two days misses the point of the prophecy. It does not say "Twice dawns the two-day-period of the Last Battle", it says "Twice dawns the DAY". If the Battle takes more than one day, that would not be fulfilling the prophecy (not to say that it won't take more than a day, just that this prophecy requires more).
JakOShadows: 2005-08-07
I will admit that the creator could remove that ta'veren effect since he gives it to them, but I think the thread of the dragon reborn(even without being ta'veren) would twist the pattern some. You could be right. It just seems that he has to die for the process of creating a new age to begin. The sense of balance that RJ always seems to have in his books wouldn't be right then.
Garayur: 2005-08-07
*Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.*
Does this piece of prophesy have to refer entirely to the future? *Once for mourning* could very well refer to when LLT commited suicide in his grief over what he had done. As for the Once for Birth, well it's prophesy, the common interpretation rarely is what it's true meaning is, the only time people truley know the meaning is when the event has already occured. The point is the twice dawns the day can very well refer to an event occuring at a differant time than the Last Battle. I can very well be wrong but just something to think about.
Callandor: 2005-08-09
**I always interpreted the Aelfinn's answer to Rand of "To live you must die" as meaning, "If you ever want to be reborn, you've got to die in the Last Battle" or "If you don't die, the Pattern will be destroyed and you'll never live again". So, while I now think it is more possible than I did before, I think Rand is not making it out of this one.**
There you go ;)
** I will admit that the creator could remove that ta'veren effect since he gives it to them, but I think the thread of the dragon reborn(even without being ta'veren) would twist the pattern some.**
The Creator doesn't make people ta'veren -- the Wheel does. The Creator doesn't do anything in the world; all that he has ever done was done in the moment of Creation. He just creates worlds, and lets them run their course.
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 36 - Web of the Pattern
"Yes, that's it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose." He let out a booming chuckle. "Elder Haman would be proud of me. He always droned on, and the books about traveling were much more interesting, but I did listen sometimes."**
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 42 - Remembrance of Dreams
"So they are," Moiraine said. "Three of them, when I expected one. A great many things have happened that I did not expect. This news concerning the Eye of the World changes much." She paused, frowning. "For a time the Pattern does seem to be swirling around all three of you, just as Loial says, and the swirl will grow greater before it becomes less. Sometimes being ta'veren means the Pattern is forced to bend to you, and sometimes it means the Pattern forces you to the needed path. The Web can still be woven many ways, and some of those designs would be disastrous. For you, for the world.**
Ta'veren aren't always ta'veren from Point A to death. Their purpose by the Pattern as corrective mechanisms runs up, and they are no longer ta'veren. With this, of course, in many situations, you would suspect that death would be the most likely end of course (especially in Rand's case).
Napoleon the Clown: 2006-03-06
Also, Rand could Travel from the Eastern most part of the continent and then Travel to a different time zone an hour or more away, thus there being two mornings witnessed by Rand and any taggers along. The first could be to mourn the death of a friend, or for his "funeral," the second for the birth of his kids or the like. Then, to use a modern phrase, "All Hell breaks loose."