1
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-17
I added a few quotes to your theory to give it more weight...I hope you don't mind. I like the line of thought you are pursuing. Will Rand become the Dragon Reborn? I am always against the idea, I don't want Rand to lose to LTT, but there is something poetic...in Rand becoming LTT, in order to seal the bore. However, you could have taken time to develop the idea of what LTT would do...because simply making seals again doesn't seem to be the solution.
2
reTaardad: 2005-02-18
I think that the perfect example of entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh is Slayer. He radiates a cold and unhuman scent to Perrin, which is probably the most indicative sign of entering in the flesh. What this entails, I don't know. I'm not sure if it somehow causes you to lose your mind or if it will eventually effect you physically; but if the Forsaken abstain from doing it, then I'm sure it carries some serious after-effects.
Also, the scene from tFoH when Rand enters T'A'R in the flesh...What I pulled from that is that instead of Rand losing something of himself that it was rather Rahvin "unmaking" Rand and Lews Therin was taking over in a defensive measure. Lews Therin must have known what was happening because of the way that he reacted to Rand's undoing. Immediately following this event, Rand practices this new power by unmaking a nearby bush, so I don't think that this was an example of Rand losing his humanity or a coup over Rands body initially started by Lews Therin (though he did take advantage of the weakness and attempt to take over, as I recall).
3
Callandor: 2005-02-18
**1. Entering TAR in the flesh has horrible consequences. The Wise Ones warn against it and the Forsaken avoid it. I THINK that one (or all) of the consequences is losing your humanity, something vital that makes you human. (quotemasters plz help, i know i heard this somewhere...)**
Demandred seems to use it freely, as well as Ishamael and Rahvin (although he was more of a flight). Doesn't seem too much like avoiding it.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 32 - Summoned in Haste
"No," Bair snapped at the same instant Amys said, "We will not teach her such a thing. It was used for evil, it is evil, and whoever does it loses part of themselves."**
**This could easily be the thing done earlier, entering TAR in the flesh. Now heres where the Theory goes into lala land. I propose that Rand loses his humanity, and "Lews Theren" takes over. Whether you believe Rand merely thinks he's LTT or LTY is a complete different personality doesnt really matter.**
The last time that we know Rand was in Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh was in LoC, as far as I can remember (but I am not 100% sure).
Plus, if it's losing part of a person that is going to cost Rand the battle with Lews Therin, why hasn't it happened already? If even LoC is the last time he went into Tel'aran'rhiod, he has had a few battles over control with Lews Therin since then, and nothing wrong so far.
**Now WAY WAY out there. LTT takes over and seals the bore again but RIGHT this time and dies, Nynaeve heals Rand and he lives happily ever after.**
If only you didn't put that last part, I'd have nothing to really argue about it, since it's pure opinion.
But once a person is dead, they are dead (anyone dealing with the Shadow is a special exception). There is no coming back for them. No magical Healing weave to do this.
If a person is going to die (as Rand ~clearly~ is), the Pattern almost assuredly woven it and moved on. The BWB states clearly: a person cannot change the Pattern. Ta'veren can only alter to what the Pattern wishes. Once a person is woven to die, they will die.
Examples of this: any Viewing of Min's where she says she cannot do anything to help a person from dying. I think we have had seven or eight of these.
People like to bring up Mat's death apart of this too; however, that was foretold to not be an actual death by the Finn (IE: the Pattern planned for it).
Also, just think about the implications for this. Anyone can magically be brought back to life, as long as they have an Aes Sedai near them who can do this? People would be dang near immortals.
The only one, the ~only~ one, who can bring someone back from the dead in the style people are thinking of is the Creator -- and he does not intervene -- period. The Dark One does not do this in the same way, he has a neat loophole for those strickly sworn to him.
**(if i predicted the end of the books im going to cry, please callandor, destroy this monster)**
Well, except for the Rand being brought back to life, I'd just say it's your opinion.
Personally, I feel that if Rand were to lose the battle between himself and Lews Therin nothing would happen, and yet everything would change. Rand would know for sure that it's a figment of his own imagination. I do think this will happen sometime soon (most likely book 12).
If Rand seccumbs to Lews Therin, and somehow gains the insight to seal the prison, it'd most likely be from some memory fo Lews Therin's about it, and some thinking power and Rand's part (hard to imagine, I know ;)).
Rand did ask the Aelfinn three questions, we know that one of them regarded Cleansing saidin; we know one of them regarded surviving the Last Battle (the "to live, you must die" answer); the third could very well be many things, one of which being how to seal the Prison (like when he asked about it to Fel).
I believe Rand figures it out on his own, or with help from possibly Moiraine (ha ha ha, Frenzy :-P), or by some other means, but I don't think it's from Lews Therin taking over him.
4
Aiel Finn: 2005-02-18
I believe that entering T'A'R in the flesh can have horrible concequences because there is no longer any part of you that is not subject to the "T'A'R power". This means that if LTT gained control, he could leave T'A'R and be LTT, not Rand. Isam could have also been a soul in T'A'R who merged with Luc and then could leave. I think that the Forsaken entering in the flesh is mostly a show of arrogance saying that they think they can handle anything that would try to attack them.
5
Ozymandias: 2005-02-18
Callandor writes:
"Demandred seems to use it freely, as well as Ishamael and Rahvin (although he was more of a flight). Doesn't seem too much like avoiding it."
We know a few things about Ishamael that back the theory of him losing his humanity. On the one hand we have Slayer, who is radiating that cold and inhuman smell. On the other hand, we have Ishamael, who has used T'A'R more than any other male we know of. We know for a fact that he's half mad, and (im not great with quotes, but i remember this being said) some of the other Forsaken say how Ishamael is more than half mad and less than half human. Note the last part. I think we can safely assume that Rand, Rahvin, and other males we've encountered havent used T'A'R enough to develop this lack of humanity (hows that for a paradox?).
Something else to consider is that males CANT enter T'A'R except in the flesh (or rarely by naturally dreaming). Correct me if I'm wrong, but we have yet to see a male in T'A'R (in the sense that women use it) on purpose. Perrin enter's in the wolfdream, which doesn't seem to be synonomous with the way Egwene and Co use it. And Rand, Ishamael, Rahvin, and Slayer all enter in the flesh. So maybe this relates to gateways; we know that men and women make gateways differently (at least i think it was said that the method in which they make them are different, Ill go back and check). Thats just a far fetched, most likely erroneous theory, but sort of interesting nonetheless
6
: 2005-02-19
In response to reTaardad's comment about the "cold and inhuman scent" of Slayer, when Perrin tracked Slayer to the Tower of Ghenjei, he noticed that "the smell hung here, though, that cold, inhuman stink. The trail ended here." The connection between
Slayer and the Finns, the debatability of which seems to also end here, is an important factor to weigh. The Finns' mentioned inhumanity, their apparent relation to the non-domestic and therefore TAR compatible snakes and foxes, and the magnified power of their realm within TAR are all interesting details in this "flesh" business. Their knowledge of the Pattern, and the knowledge of those bound by the Horn in TAR, and its accompanying prescripts, are also interesting connections. Those bound by the Horn seem to be there in the flesh, but they are dead, waiting to be reborn or called by the Horn, so it's not quite the same thing. But at what point does flesh-dreaming begin to erode at one's humanity? Is it like the gradual addiction and influence of the True Power? Moridin has been said to be "less than half-human." Did he obtain his apparent memories of past lives through flesh-dreaming, or maybe the Finns? Does this indulgence, along with his TP indulgence, contribute to his said non-humanity? Birgitte's sudden re-entry into life, into humanity, seemed to demand she forget those past lives. Possibly the voice of LTT in Rand's head is a result of Rand's flesh-dreaming. The timing of those instances that we know of and the increase of the intensity of LTT's presence in his head would be about right. LTT seemed more solidly a part of Rand since Shadar Logoth. The idea of how to cleanse the taint was the result of a question put to the Finns, and confirmed in principle by Harid Fel, who was not exactly inhuman, but definitely out of touch with the general scope of humanity. Any connection? And hey! Was that not a question touching the Shadow? Maybe there's just some "dire consequences" going on here. Maybe not. How about Mat's memories obtained from the Finns? Result in a little bit of loss of humanity for Mat? Maybe, maybe not. Sorry to introduce so many questions and so little real input, but I just wanted to bring up some variant points.
7
SugarBullet: 2005-02-19
This is what's on the dragonmount site:
Something that has previously happened in the series is going to be revealed to have a terrible cost.... When you read it your reaction will be, "Gasp. How horrible!"
Now, to me, while it is not explicitly stated, it seems implicit that the "Big Oops" has some element of suprise and or irony to it. Jordan seems to be hinting that the "something that has previously happened" was either percieved as innocuous, or was meant to aim at one puspose which the "horrible consequences" actually undercut. Otherwise it would not earn the desired reaction from the author of "Gasp. How horrible!"
To me, entering TAR in the flesh just doesn't fit the bill. Everyone seems to know that that's bad already. Wheres the gasp? Wheres the dramatic impact? I think we need to look more at the less conspicuous errors.
Just my gut personal gutlevel reaction to the teaser.
8
Callandor: 2005-02-19
**On the other hand, we have Ishamael, who has used T'A'R more than any other male we know of. We know for a fact that he's half mad, and (im not great with quotes, but i remember this being said) some of the other Forsaken say how Ishamael is more than half mad and less than half human. Note the last part. I think we can safely assume that Rand, Rahvin, and other males we've encountered havent used T'A'R enough to develop this lack of humanity (hows that for a paradox?).**
Ah, so Ishamael's voyages into Tel'aran'rhiod have caused his madness, and not him being the king of True Power using for over 3000 years?
**Something else to consider is that males CANT enter T'A'R except in the flesh (or rarely by naturally dreaming). Correct me if I'm wrong, but we have yet to see a male in T'A'R (in the sense that women use it) on purpose.**
Only women can use Tel'aran'rhiod as Dreamwalkers? Perrin is a wolfbrother, and he does utilize Tel'aran'rhiod in a similar fashion.
And Delana had Aran'gar's name in her dreams. Now this is quite significant because only two possibilities are really present:
1. A female Forsaken sent the message to Delana in her dreams. This really doesn't make much sense, since this was before great teamwork betweeen the Forsaken anyway.
2. Aran'gar sent the message herself. This, aside from being the most obvious, means that Aran'gar can use the GOI, which as far as we know only Dreamwalkers can use, and establishes men can use Tel'aran'rhiod in the same fashion.
9
Anubis: 2005-02-21
**Examples of this: any Viewing of Min's where she says she cannot do anything to help a person from dying. I think we have had seven or eight of these.
People like to bring up Mat's death apart of this too; however, that was foretold to not be an actual death by the Finn (IE: the Pattern planned for it). **
Min cant save these people because they are destined to die. It has already been written. Rand COULD be a case like Matts in which the pattern plans for Rands death. Though I really cant think of a reason for the pattern to do this, other then to make me happy and you wrong.
10
Callandor: 2005-02-22
**Min cant save these people because they are destined to die. It has already been written. Rand COULD be a case like Matts in which the pattern plans for Rands death. Though I really cant think of a reason for the pattern to do this, other then to make me happy and you wrong.**
Exactly, not to mention it is made mention of in the Prophecies of the Dragon (yes, it says twice to die), as well as the Finn saying Rand must die to live. Rand dies, the soul of the Dragon lives on to be reborn again and again for all time.
I don't see where people miss the happy ending in this. Yes, Rand dies, but it's a sacrifice that's willing. In case people have been missing it, Rand is a martyr! ;) Martyrs die.
11
Anubis: 2005-02-22
I dont see the happiness... Rand is depressed, half insane, and scuicidal. How many times has he wanted to just "end it now"? "Death is lighter then a feather, duty heavier then a mountian" is his mantra. He has displayed signs of self mutilation (clawing marks into the palm of his hand), he is for all intents and purposes skitzophrenic (never mind that the voice might be real, its not fun), and he drives his friends away to keep them safe. Now tell him he "gets" to be a martyr. Woo freakin hoo. He wants to die, the only thing keeping him going is that he needs to live so he can die later to save the world. He got a crappy deal from the creator and I want him to have better. I want this to be a story of salvation, not of just the world, but of Rand as well. Now excuse my wishfull thinking.
12
Callandor: 2005-02-22
**I dont see the happiness... Rand is depressed, half insane, and scuicidal.**
The world keeps on exisiting... if that is not a happy ending, I don't know what is. It is not the super-ultra-mega-happy-ending where everything works out perfectly, but RJ doesn't write that way (regardless of what people think now).
**He got a crappy deal from the creator and I want him to have better. I want this to be a story of salvation, not of just the world, but of Rand as well.**
And you are totally missing the point of Rand being a messiah archetype then. Rand gets to save the world -- that does not happen without a sacrifice. You want Rand to have it better, and I'm sure Rand wants it better, but he is destined to die, plain and simple.
13
Stilicho: 2005-02-23
Callandor: regarding the prophesies about Rand dying-be careful of a too literal interpretation. For example, Elaida glommed on to Morgase because of a foretelling that the royal house of Andor would be crucial to winning the last battle; never understanding that the foretelling actually referred to Rand (through Tigraine). All the quotes you use are accurate, but there is still plenty of wiggle room in the prophesies to have Rand alive and well at the end of the series (ala Mat being fated to die and live again--think along the lines of Aviendha seeing Rand killed and cutting loose a very large can of balefire whup-ass on those responsible). While the elements of martyrdom are present along with strong Arthurian undertones, this series isn't bound to those paths that tightly. While RJ could pull a deux ex machina to save Rand, I suspect it will be something more elegant and I certainly believe that there is plenty of room for such a happy ending in both the plot and the prophesies. I'm not saying it will be a "fairy tale" ending, you're right on that score, RJ doesn't write like that, but it will be an ending where Rand lives. He will suffer and pay a terrible price along the way, but he will ultimately succeed and live. But that's just my opinion, as any interpretation of prophesy must be until we see the prophesied events actually occur.
14
Callandor: 2005-02-23
**Callandor: regarding the prophesies about Rand dying-be careful of a too literal interpretation.**
Yes, I know everyone always warns "well, prophecies never say what they mean." So, wouldn't it be a shock if this time it DID?
Besides, as Anubis pointed out, what does Rand have going for him that it would be better to live at this point?
1. He is one of the most adorned people in the world, as well as being one of the most hated individuals of the 3rd Age.
2. He's a danger to just about anyone due to political manuverings.
3. He's stopped going further insane (one heck of a plus), but the effects that already there have not disappeared and will not.
**All the quotes you use are accurate, but there is still plenty of wiggle room in the prophesies to have Rand alive and well at the end of the series (ala Mat being fated to die and live again--think along the lines of Aviendha seeing Rand killed and cutting loose a very large can of balefire whup-ass on those responsible).**
Then this degrades the Wheel of Time into the most horrible climax ever. Everyone is grasping at anything and everything for Rand to live: Balefire, an unknown impossible Healing of death weave, being transmigrated by the Dark One, Lews Therin "dying," etc. It's getting down right pathetic with the attempts of having Rand live.
He is not needed at all anymore after the Last Battle, so why have him live? The Dragon's purpose it to try to keep humanity (and the whole of existence really) from being pushed over at one point: the Last Battle. If Rand succeeds, what's left for him to do? Nothing. There isn't a series anymore then, that's what everything has been building up to and is the penultimate point.
**While the elements of martyrdom are present along with strong Arthurian undertones, this series isn't bound to those paths that tightly. While RJ could pull a deux ex machina to save Rand, I suspect it will be something more elegant and I certainly believe that there is plenty of room for such a happy ending in both the plot and the prophesies.**
How?
We have the Aelfinn, who it are specifically stated to be never, ever, wrong, saying that Rand will die. Given all the other criteria for how to come back to life, how is it possible for Rand to live, and die, without dying in physical sense, and his soul continuing on in existance to be respun by the Wheel later on?
We have the prophecies saying twice to live, twice to die. Where's the missing piece here? Again, there is no way to come back from death in a resonable manner for Rand.
Then we have Min's viewings, which again are never wrong, of Rand at a funeral bier, coupled with the black rocks red with blood which ties in directly to the Karaethon Cycle's line of "his block on the rocks of Shayol Ghul." The blood part is ambiguous, but the funeral bier is much more difficult to explain away, especially in light of the above.
It just seems completely unreasonable, not to mention impossible and pointless, for Rand to survive the Last Battle.
15
Stilicho: 2005-02-24
Callandor, I agree with alot of what you said, I just think that the prophesies, the Finn, and Min's viewings do leave some "wiggle room." We have seen the dead return to the land of the living in several contexts in this series so far: the DO's transmigrating thing (although I'm not suggesting this as a possibility for Rand); Balefire's temporal effects (Mat); and Birgitte (dead hero of the horn) being ripped out of TAR as a living breathing "normal" human. That establishes that RJ is certainly willing to bring someone back from the dead when it suits his purpose. Which, in turn, leads me to what appears to be your most serious objection to Rand living: WHY? My answer is simple: redemption. LTT screwed up, the seals, Illyena, etc. The guilt drove him to take his own life. It has been Rand's task all along to fix LTT's mistakes. I think part of this involves LTT's personal mistakes (Kinslayer, etc.) along with properly sealing the bore this time around. With this accomplished (LTT's failures redeemed) and the LTT personality peacefully dead, Rand can go on living for all the same reasons that any of us do so.
