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armon Gaidon- Been and Gone?
by Yaga Shura: 2005-02-15 | 3.27 out of 10 (15 votes)
Previous Categories: The Last Battle
This sounds insane, but bear with me. None of the prophecies say that Tarmon Gai'don will be armies of Light and Shadow going toe to toe. It could just as easily be Rand, the Champion of the Light, and the Champion of the Shadow in a one on one. My theory is that when Rand fought Ba'alzamon in the sky above Falme (TGH, ch. 47), this was Tarmon Gai'don.
Firstly, the principle elements are all there. Obviously, Rand is, and so is a representative of the Dark One. We know Rand, Mat and Perrin had to be together, and they are. The Dragon Banner is there, and the Horn of Valere is sounded, bringing back the dead heroes, who must fight in the Last Battle.
Clearly, one of the biggest flaws in my theory is the “his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul” part of the prophecies. Shayol Ghul is the site of the Dark One's prison, which, being outside the pattern, is technically both anywhere and everywhere. It is coincidental that there happens to be a mountain of the same name, at the point where the pattern is thin. So when Ba'alzamon stabs Rand with his staff and “he felt it pierce his side” (TGH, ch. 47) that bleeding could easily have been the blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.
Further, the world of the Finn through the gateway in Tear is almost ripped apart by the presence of Mat and Rand, because of their strong Ta'veren qualities. It is not inconceivable that the presence of Mat, Rand and Perrin could have a pattern stretching effect at Falme.
Also, compare the prophecies quoted at the beginning of TEOTW and the end of TGH. They are identical (“And men cried out to the Creator...Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of Time.”) This cyclical element to the prophecies indicates some kind of link between the fight at Falme and the overall war with the Shadow. Rand could easily have just won Tarmon Gai'don, and therefore it is the same as when Lews Therin Telamon sealed the bore, in that the war is effectively over, although the devastation will continue. For Lews Therin, this was the breaking of the world, and for Rand it is the rest of the series.
The continuing wars, with Rand trying to unite everyone and the White Tower splitting, the Seanchan showing up to raise merry hell etc., could easily constitute a new breaking. Not in a geographical sense, but certainly the people are being broken apart. Tarabon and Arad Doman are/were in massive civil wars, the laws of Tear and Cairhien have been rewritten and the Aiel are breaking apart, all because of Rand.
Also, don't forget that in LOC there is a Foretelling about “the last battle done, but the world not done with battle”. The world is definitely not done with battle, so this does not stop Tarmon Gai'don from having already happened.
At the start of TDR, Moiraine mentions to Perrin a bunch of stuff Rand has to do that he has not yet done, things like healing some great sickness and breaking chains (sorry, I couldn't find the exact quotations). Anyway, the point is that Rand only has to do that stuff to prove he is the Dragon, not to be able to fight the Last Battle.
None of Min's viewings or Egwene's dreams are known to deal specifically with Tarmon Gai'don. Although people keep talking about Rand failing and so on, they never seem to be too specific about what he will fail at. Remembering Cadsuane's insistance that, unless he remembers how to laugh and cry, his victory may be more terrible than his defeat, it could be that his failure will be in being the salvation of the world, not in winning Tarmon Gai'don.
So far, I have found nothing to convince me that I am wrong, but I am sure that plenty of people out there will be prepared to tell me how insane I am. Please, do, I look forward to proving you all wrong. (or looking like a total imbecile. Whatever, it's all good.)
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-23
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
yes, it could be just each side's Champion facing off. But that happening over Falme doesn't take into account a huge chunk of prophecy that doesn't get resolved until after that battle. (Your assertion that they're only needed to identify him as the Dragon is false. The Second Heron did that, at Falme. He doesn't get his once and twice the dragon until after that fight.)
Key flaw in your theory: if the Falme battle WAS the LAST Battle, why the repeat in Tear?
Callandor: 2005-02-24
**My theory is that when Rand fought Ba'alzamon in the sky above Falme (TGH, ch. 47), this was Tarmon Gai'don.**
No, for the simple reason that Rand did not fulfill all the Prophecies then (or even yet). Falme was a prelude to the Last Battle.
**Clearly, one of the biggest flaws in my theory is the “his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul” part of the prophecies. Shayol Ghul is the site of the Dark One's prison, which, being outside the pattern, is technically both anywhere and everywhere. It is coincidental that there happens to be a mountain of the same name, at the point where the pattern is thin. So when Ba'alzamon stabs Rand with his staff and “he felt it pierce his side” (TGH, ch. 47) that bleeding could easily have been the blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.**
Shayol Ghul is a place; the Bore is everywhere in the world. Shayol Ghul is a specific mountain, in the Blight, where the Bore is most strongly felt.
**Further, the world of the Finn through the gateway in Tear is almost ripped apart by the presence of Mat and Rand, because of their strong Ta'veren qualities. It is not inconceivable that the presence of Mat, Rand and Perrin could have a pattern stretching effect at Falme.**
What do you mean by this? Because three ta'veren were together, they were metaphysically someplace else at the same time, if not everywhere at once? If that's the case, they were doing the same thing for the first 20-odd chapters of The Eye of the World and the last 10 or so chapters of the same book.
**This cyclical element to the prophecies indicates some kind of link between the fight at Falme and the overall war with the Shadow. Rand could easily have just won Tarmon Gai'don, and therefore it is the same as when Lews Therin Telamon sealed the bore, in that the war is effectively over, although the devastation will continue. For Lews Therin, this was the breaking of the world, and for Rand it is the rest of the series.**
What about the wolves saying the "Last Hunt" is coming? What about all the other Prophecies of the Dragon, not just the blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, that had yet to be fulfilled? What about the lack of knowledge about the Last Battle "occuring" for the Forsaken?
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: Prologue - In the Shadow
"The Great Lord of the Dark is my Master, and most heartily do I serve him to the last shred of my very soul." In the back of his mind a voice chattered with fear. The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound . . . . Shivering, he forced it to silence. He had abandoned that voice long since. "Lo, my Master is death's Master. Asking nothing do I serve against the Day of his coming, yet do I serve in the sure and certain hope of life everlasting." . . . bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator at the moment of creation. No, I serve a different master now. "Surely the faithful shall be exalted in the land, exalted above the unbelievers; exalted above thrones, *yet do I serve humbly against the Day of his Return."* The hand of the Creator shelters us all, and the Light protects us from the Shadow. No, no! A different master. *"Swift come the Day of Return. Swift come the Great Lord of the Dark to guide us and rule the world forever and ever."***
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: Prologue - In the Shadow
"The man who called himself Bors blinked. *In this Age or another? I thought the Day of Return was near.* What matter to me what happens in another Age if I grow old and die waiting in this one? But Ba'alzamon was speaking again.**
To:
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall
"Let him whittle away the dead wood," Sammael said gruffly. He wove flows of Air to drag a chair across the carpet and sprawled with his boots crossed at the ankle and one arm over the low, carved back. Anyone who believed he was at ease was a fool; Sammael had always liked to dupe his enemies into thinking they could take him by surprise. *"More for the rest of us on the Day of Return. Or do you think he might win Tarmon Gai'don, Lanfear?* Even if he stiffens Asmodean's backbone, he has no Hundred Companions this time. With Asmodean or alone, the Great Lord will extinguish him like a broken sarlight."**
** TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall
"Why only we four?" Rahvin asked. The other "why" would have to wait. "Why more?" was Lanfear's reply. *"If we can present the Dragon Reborn kneeling to the Great Lord on the Day of Return,* why share the honor-and the rewards -further than need be? And perhaps he can even be used to-how did you put it, Sammael?-whittle away the dead wood.**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
"Demandred came as close to smiling as he ever did. What fools they were who opposed the Great Lord. Oh, the Bore was still blocked, though more tenuously than when he had wakened from his long sleep and broken free of his own prison in it. Blocked, but larger than when he woke. Still not so large as when he had been cast into it with his fellows at the end of the War of Power, but at each visit since waking, a little wider. Soon the blockage would be gone, and the Great Lord would reach out across the earth again. *Soon would come the Day of Return.* And he would rule the world for all time. Under the Great Lord, of course. And with those of the other Chosen who survived, also of course.**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow
"A lithe dark-haired woman, not young but with the sort of pale beauty and elegance that would last all her life, appeared at his elbow cradling a crystal goblet of dark wine punch in both hands. He took it, though he had no intention of drinking; beginners watched for a major assault till their eyes burned, and let a lone assassin walk up behind them. *Alliances, however temporary, were all very well, but the fewer of the Chosen who remained on the Day of Return, the greater the chance among the survivors to be named Nae'blis.* The Great Lord had always encouraged such ... competition; only the fittest were worthy to serve. At times Sammael behaved that the one chosen to rule the world forever would be the last of the Chosen left standing.**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow
"No," she said as if she had understood. "The Ayyad, as they call themselves, live in their own small towns, avoiding everyone else, and supposedly never channel without permission or orders from the Sh'botay or Sh'boan. In fact, they are the real power, and the reason the Sh'botay and Sh'boan only rule seven years." Rich laughter bubbled up in her for a moment. She herself had always believed in being the power behind the power. "Yes, a fascinating land. Too far from the center to be of any use for many years, of course." She made a slight, dismissive gesture, fluttering beringed fingers. *"There will be plenty of time to see what can be made of it after the Day of Return."***
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 16 - Tellings of the Wheel
"The Illianer's mouth worked, struggled. What came out bore no relation to the voice he had used before. It was deeper, full of confidence, in a different accent. *"We will stand on different sides, you and I, come the day of the Great Lord's Return,* but why should we kill each other now and leave Demandred and Graendal to contest for the world over our bones?" Rand knew that voice, in one of those scraps from Lews Therm that had settled in his mind. Sammael's voice. Lews Therin snarled wordlessly. "Already you have much to digest," the Illianer went on—or Sammael did. "Why bite off more? And hard chewing, even if you don't find Semirhage or Asmodean taking you from behind while you are busy with it. *I propose a truce between us, a truce until the Day of Return.* If you do not move against me, I will not against you. I will pledge not to move east beyond the Plains of Maredo, nor further north than Lugard in the east or Jehannah in the west. You see, I leave the greater share by far to you. I do not claim to speak for the rest of the Chosen, but at least you know you have nothing to fear from me, or out of the lands I hold. I will pledge not to aid them in anything they do against you, nor to help them defend against you. You have done well so far in removing the Chosen from the field. I have no doubt you will continue to do well, better than before, knowing your southern flank is safe and the others fight without my aid. *I suspect that on the Day of Return, there will be only you and I, as it should be.* As it was meant to be." The man's teeth clicked shut, hidden behind that frozen grin. His eyes looked near madness.**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 23 - To Understand a Message
"Which means," he [Sammael] continued, *"that on the Day of Return,* I will very likely be the only one remaining to face al'Thor."**
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 23 - To Understand a Message
"Do more than try, Graendal. More than try." When Graendal was gone, the gateway back to her palace in Arad Doman closed, Sammael let the smile dissolve on his face. His jaws ached from holding it. Graendal thought too much; she was so used to making others act for her that she failed to think of acting for herself. He wondered what she would say if she ever discovered that he had manipulated her as deftly as she had manipulated so many fools in her time. He would wager everything that she never saw his real purpose. So, Mesaana was inside the White Tower. Mesaana in the Tower, and Graendal in Arad Doman. Had Graendal been able to see his face then, she would have known real fear. *Whatever happened, Sammael intended to be the one still standing on the Day of Return, to be named Nae'blis and defeat the Dragon Reborn.***
Seems that the rest of the Forsaken are pretty well out of the loop on their plans here. And even other Shadow-sworn people:
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 18 - A Hound of Darkness
"Liandrin spread her divided riding skirts as best she could in a deep curtsy. "We welcome you, Great Mistress. *With the Chosen to lead us, we shall surely triumph before the Day of the Great Lord's Return."***
**The continuing wars, with Rand trying to unite everyone and the White Tower splitting, the Seanchan showing up to raise merry hell etc., could easily constitute a new breaking. Not in a geographical sense, but certainly the people are being broken apart. Tarabon and Arad Doman are/were in massive civil wars, the laws of Tear and Cairhien have been rewritten and the Aiel are breaking apart, all because of Rand.**
Exactly right. The Breaking of the World is much more metaphorical this time around then physical.
But if you notice, the new Breaking doesn't have to come ~after~ the Last Battle.
**Also, don't forget that in LOC there is a Foretelling about “the last battle done, but the world not done with battle”. The world is definitely not done with battle, so this does not stop Tarmon Gai'don from having already happened.**
Nor does it mean that Tarmon Gai'don must be alread done in the past. In fact it makes it highly unlikely it has occured in the past because it was a Foretelling.
As Herid Fel said, the Last Battle will not be the "Last Battle" for the world; the Wheel keeps turning and Ages keep coming and going. After the Last Battle for this Age, the world will still keep on fighting; there won't be massive peace throughout the land from then on.
**Anyway, the point is that Rand only has to do that stuff to prove he is the Dragon, not to be able to fight the Last Battle.**
They all must be fulfilled before the Last Battle is complete. After all, at this point in the story, Rand had yet to even proclaim himself the Dragon Reborn, or take Callandor to prove to the world that the Dragon has been reborn, and that the Last Battle is on it's way.
**None of Min's viewings or Egwene's dreams are known to deal specifically with Tarmon Gai'don. Although people keep talking about Rand failing and so on, they never seem to be too specific about what he will fail at. Remembering Cadsuane's insistance that, unless he remembers how to laugh and cry, his victory may be more terrible than his defeat, it could be that his failure will be in being the salvation of the world, not in winning Tarmon Gai'don.**
Min has a specific viewing about Rand with "black rocks red with blood", which aligns perfectly with the Karaethon Cycle's prophecy of the Dragon's blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul (which is again a specific place, not a place all over the world).
The Last Battle definately will be another climactic battle between Rand and Ishamael/Moridin (if he ever figures out who he is...), and the forces of good and evil.
bigjellybeans: 2005-02-24
The last battle to me would be where the DO had no affect on the world whatsoever (which he still does). Also it's been said that Caemlyn would be critical in the last battle. So lets pretend we are metaphorical and say Elayne was the representation of Caemlyn in Falme. The only problem is she really did not do anything that noteworthy. So in conclusion I think that the last battle is in fact in the future
UberAshaman: 2005-02-25
about mins viewings, um what about the viewing about continuous fireflies into a great darkness and gettig eaten, but winning when mat and/or perrin are there. im pretty sure that is TG material
Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2005-02-25
this seems like a good theory, but i must fall on callandor's side im afraid. i may not like how he illuminated them, but there are some gaping holes in your theory. though, i dont think that what the Forsaken know has any relevance in this discussion. They have been wrong many a time. :) good theory, though, keep em coming. i agree with tam, kewl name :P
: 2005-02-26
Even when I was writing this I was hoping it was utter rubbish, and knew it would get slaughtered. Even so, I feel I should stick up for my mad theory, especially after Satin alEllien Moonsong wrote " this seems like a good theory" Yay!
Anyway, I found the quotes from TDR that I was mentioning Moiraine telling Perrin about Rand proving himself as the Dragon: "[Perrin to Moiraine]'If Rand holds Callandor, the whole world must acknowledge him as the Dragon.'
'Perhaps'...
'Neither the first nor the last'"(TDR ch6) Not exactly conclusive, but certainly this proves that a big chunk of prophecy is needed solely to prove Rand is the Dragon.
I guess I kind of forgot about some of Min's viewings, specifically the fireflies-like one. Even so, everyone she saw connected to that, except Thom, was at Falme, and since I believe that that viewing is a reference to the fight against the Shadow as a whole, it isn't really important. And the black rocks wet with blood I tried to explain before (although I forgot Min saw this, I did remember that it forms part of the KC).
The glossary to TEoTW, TGH, and TDR(maybe others, haven't checked) describe Shayol Ghul as "A mountain in the Blasted Lands, the site of the Dark One's prison". Since the Dark One is outside the pattern, it seems odd that his prison is inside it, but lets just run with the fact that this is the place where the prison is closest, therefore, where the Pattern is thinnest. On a point of grammar, the comma leaves it open to interpretation whether the name of the point in the world where the DO's prison is closest is always Shayol Ghul, or if Shayol Ghul is only the name of the mountain. If, as I believe, the mountain and the point closest to the prison happen to be in the same place by happenstance, then anywhere that the pattern becomes thinner than it is at the mountain Shayol Ghul will become Shayol Ghul, the place where the prison lies closest to the world.
Continuing on from this, I believe that the effect of having three very strong ta'veren in one place is sufficient to stretch the pattern to the point where Falme becomes the place where the pattern is thinnest. And yes, this does mean that they have spent a massive chunk of their lives in this exact same position, but this is the only time when the Pattern has been so stretched by three amigos in the presence of both the Horn of Valere and the DO's champion.
From Callandor: "Seems that the rest of the Forsaken are pretty well out of the loop on their plans here" Well, I never said that the DO had planned the way in which TG happened(according to this theory). The Forsaken, just like everyone else, don't realise that the outcome has been predetermined by Falme and now it is only a matter of time. This is the same reason for the repeat in Tear, because the Forsaken are still in the dark, as it were. Also, isn't Tear the first time Ishamael acknowledges in front of Rand that he is not the DO?
The second Heron is only part of what is needed to identify Rand as the Dragon. When I started thinking about the "Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay" I decided that the physical markings on Rand's hands are red herrings. The true herons and dragons are something entirely different.
First heron: Lan. His arrival in Emond's Field, with Moiraine, is one of the key factors in Rand avoiding the fate that befalls him in the portal stone worlds. His path to the Last Battle is set by the fact that he meets Lan.
Second Heron(possible): Turak. If he hadn't had to fight Turak, he may well have escaped from Falme before the Seanchan could catch up to them.
Second Heron(possible): Hawkwing. When Hawkwing greets Rand as though he were LTT, Rand can no longer truly doubt what Moiraine has been telling him. I don't know if AH was a blademaster, but if he wasn't, then this falls flat on it's face. Of the two possibles, I favour this one.
At this point, I don't have a good idea of what the Dragons are represented by in my mad, not-the-ones-on-his-arms way, but I am working on it.
Bigjellybeans: could you find where it says that Caemlyn will be crucial in the last battle. I'm not doubting you, I know it says that, but it's kinda hard to do lunatic reinterpretations without text evidence to reinterpret. Thanks.
bigjellybeans: 2005-02-26
Exactly where the quote was I am not sure. It is between books 2 through 4 I think. I was never a big quotemaster and I dont have all the books at my disposal. However I think I do remember it being from Elaida's point of view (whether from a foretelling or not I again am not sure ,sorry) and she says that was the reason that she placed herself at Morgase's side. It also explains why she is always on the lookout for Elayne.
Callandor: 2005-02-27
The prison is not of the Pattern:
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
"The resulting backlash destroyed the floating Sharom, shattering it like the egg it so resembled, and creating ripples in the fabric of reality as shock waves from the breach shook the pattern. It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, *but the place outside the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation.* The emanations that Mierin and the others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered his prison. The hole they created has been ever after known as the Bore."
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: The Seven Seals
"When the bore was drilled into a place outside the Pattern, a dark presence used the opening to touch the world. This presence, which named itself Shai'tan, had been imprisoned outside of time and creation by the Creator of the universe.* Since its touch was first felt, it has been called by many names: Father of Lies, Sightblinder, Lord of the Grave, Shepherd of the Night, Heartsbane, Soulsbane, Heartfang, Old Grim, Grassburner, Leafblighter, and most commonly, the Dark One. Even today, few use its true name, fearing that to do so will call the Dark One's attention to them. Naming the Dark One is considered an evil curse."
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, PROLOGUE: The First Message
"Even after all his visits--and the first well over three thousand years in the past--Demandred felt awe. *Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago ~to where~ the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation.* Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed."
**TITLE: The Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving
"He seized the True Power without though, the saa billowing black across his sight. His fingers tightened in the wrought-iron grille across the window; the metal groaned, twisting, not from his grip but from the tendrils of the True Power, drawn from the Great Lord himself, that wreathed around the grillework, flexing as he flexed his hand in anger. The Great Lord would not be pleased. *He had strained ~from his prison to touch the world~ enough to fix the seasons in place. He was impatient to touch the world more, to shatter the void that contained him, and he would not be pleased.* Rage enveloped Moridin, blood pounding in his ears. A moment past, he had not cared where those women went, but now.... Somewhere far from here. People fleeing ran as far and as fast as they could. Somewhere they felt safe. No use sending Madic to ask questions, no use squeezing anyone here; they would not have been fool enough to leave anyone behind alive who knew their destination. Not to Tar Valon. To al'Thor? To that band of rebel Aes Sedai? In all three places he had eyes, some that did not know they served him. All would serve him, before the end. He would not allow chance slips to spoil his plans now."
All of the quotes indicate that the Dark One is trapped seperately by his prison, from the Pattern. Which makes the most sense, because the Dark One is an entity beyond the Pattern, and his prison was made by the Creator, another entity beyond the Patttern, before there even was a Pattern. So why would it be apart of it?
Shayol Ghul is a physical place, a mountain, that has a specific location.
**Continuing on from this, I believe that the effect of having three very strong ta'veren in one place is sufficient to stretch the pattern to the point where Falme becomes the place where the pattern is thinnest. And yes, this does mean that they have spent a massive chunk of their lives in this exact same position, but this is the only time when the Pattern has been so stretched by three amigos in the presence of both the Horn of Valere and the DO's champion.**
Ta'veren do not "stretch" the Pattern; they alter the course of events in it.
**I decided that the physical markings on Rand's hands are red herrings. The true herons and dragons are something entirely different.**
Based on what?
Once the heron -- the first brand Rand set Rand for sure away from the Shadow since he refused Ishamael (yet again...).
Twice the Heron to name him true -- pretty obvious. Once Rand got his second Heron mark, he proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn.
Once the dragon fro rememberance lost -- Rand got the "first" marking in the Rhuidean collumns (I put quotes around the first one, since we don't know if the Dragons were put on one at a time or both at the same time, but it hardly matters at all).
Twice the dragon for the price he must pay -- obviously a big consequence that will come. Whether it's for Rand specifically, all mankind, or the Aiel is unclear since it hasn't happened yet (another flaw in the theory).
**First heron: Lan. His arrival in Emond's Field, with Moiraine, is one of the key factors in Rand avoiding the fate that befalls him in the portal stone worlds. His path to the Last Battle is set by the fact that he meets Lan.**
But he meets Moiraine first....
Or you could put it that Padan Fain set his path, since without his information the Shadow would not have sent the Trollocs, giving Rand the reason to leave the Two Rivers. Or you could put it that Ishamael set his path, since he is the one that altered Fain in the first place to give him the ability to gather that information.
**Second Heron(possible): Turak. If he hadn't had to fight Turak, he may well have escaped from Falme before the Seanchan could catch up to them.**
The Whitecloaks were on the other side of Rand and co. when they left Falme. They were stuck between two advancing armies. They weren't going anywhere from the time they came to Falme.
**Bigjellybeans: could you find where it says that Caemlyn will be crucial in the last battle. I'm not doubting you, I know it says that, but it's kinda hard to do lunatic reinterpretations without text evidence to reinterpret. Thanks.**
It's Elaida's first Foretelling:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: Prologue - Lightnings
"Elaida had the Foretelling sometimes, a Talent many thought lost before her, and long ago she had Foretold that the Royal House of Andor held the key to winning the Last Battle.* Twenty-five years gone and more, as soon as it became clear that Morgase Trakand would gain the throne in the Succession, Elaida had fastened herself to the girl, as she was then. How Elayne was crucial, Elaida did not know, but Foretelling never lied. Sometimes she almost hated the Talent. She hated things she could not control."
Yaga Shura: 2005-02-27
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: Prologue - Lightnings
"Elaida had the Foretelling sometimes, a Talent many thought lost before her, and long ago she had Foretold that the Royal House of Andor held the key to winning the Last Battle.* Twenty-five years gone and more, as soon as it became clear that Morgase Trakand would gain the throne in the Succession, Elaida had fastened herself to the girl, as she was then. How Elayne was crucial, Elaida did not know, but Foretelling never lied. Sometimes she almost hated the Talent. She hated things she could not control."
I thought that was a reference to Tigraine, Rand's birth mother, and that the key was Rand. The reason Elaida is always on the lookout for Elayne is because she doesn't know who Rand's mother was, and she assumes that Elayne is who the Foretelling refers to.
Okay, I now accept that Rand was not at Shayol Ghul in any way at the end of TGH. However, when I took this from ch. 26 of TGH I started a new line of thought:"Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."
Now the reason the DO is still able to affect the world, the reason the shadow still has a whole heap of minions running around is because, although TG is done with, Rand still has to "free men from the Shadow" by going and shedding his blood in the Pit of Doom.
"Based on what?"
On the fact that if I can't do this then my entire theory is dead in the water. Not the best justification ever, but oh well.
"But he meets Moiraine first.... "
Yes, but it always struck me that Rand gets on a lot better with Lan than he does with Moiraine, and is more influenced by him. Rand also sounds more like a Borderlander than a Carhienien, with the way he likes to go on about "duty is heavier than a mountain"
Something else I noticed. In LoC, ch.14, part of Nicola's Foretelling reads :"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle" assuming the great battle to be TG, it does say that as of LoC TG is done.
"The Whitecloaks were on the other side of Rand and co. when they left Falme. They were stuck between two advancing armies. They weren't going anywhere from the time they came to Falme."
But we aren't sure of the exact timings. It's possible, although unlikely, that there could have been some split second timing issue that would allow them to escape.
Callandor: 2005-02-27
**I thought that was a reference to Tigraine, Rand's birth mother, and that the key was Rand. The reason Elaida is always on the lookout for Elayne is because she doesn't know who Rand's mother was, and she assumes that Elayne is who the Foretelling refers to.**
It is. Caemlyn is not the key; the Royal Line of Andor is. Rand is apart of this, and is simply not known to be (except to Rand of course). Hence Elaida's misinterpretation.
**Now the reason the DO is still able to affect the world, the reason the shadow still has a whole heap of minions running around is because, although TG is done with, Rand still has to "free men from the Shadow" by going and shedding his blood in the Pit of Doom.**
You said that Rand wasn't at Shayol Ghul in TGH. Hence, it was not the Last Battle at all.
**"Based on what?"
On the fact that if I can't do this then my entire theory is dead in the water. Not the best justification ever, but oh well.**
So absolutely nothing then. Instead of the very obvious, and stunningly straightforward answer, it's a different one for which you do not have a complete explanation for.
Sorry, but if the theory is dead, it's dead.
**Yes, but it always struck me that Rand gets on a lot better with Lan than he does with Moiraine, and is more influenced by him. Rand also sounds more like a Borderlander than a Carhienien, with the way he likes to go on about "duty is heavier than a mountain"**
Of course he gets on better with Lan; but that is not the point. The point is you are using proof that Lan was the cause of Rand leaving the Two Rivers. This is false. Moiraine was the first met, and the one to bring him out of the Two Rivers.
**Something else I noticed. In LoC, ch.14, part of Nicola's Foretelling reads :"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle" assuming the great battle to be TG, it does say that as of LoC TG is done.**
Nicola's Foretelling is about what ~will happen~.
Yaga Shura: 2005-02-28
"Of course he gets on better with Lan; but that is not the point. The point is you are using proof that Lan was the cause of Rand leaving the Two Rivers. This is false. Moiraine was the first met, and the one to bring him out of the Two Rivers."
I know what Moiraine did in TEotW, but there is a lot of back story chronologically between NS and TEotW that we don't know about. Fact is, I don't know that there is enough evidence yet to say whether it was ultimately Lan or Moiraine who was responsible for L and M being in TTR on Winternight.
Callandor: 2005-03-01
**I know what Moiraine did in TEotW, but there is a lot of back story chronologically between NS and TEotW that we don't know about. Fact is, I don't know that there is enough evidence yet to say whether it was ultimately Lan or Moiraine who was responsible for L and M being in TTR on Winternight.**
You say that Rand meeting Lan is the key to why Rand got out of the Two Rivers, but he meets Moiraine first, and she is the one that provides all the reason for him to go (the danger to the Two Rivers). As well, you missed the entire part of who actually "did this." Was it Padan Fain for bringing the information to Ishamael so he could send the Trollocs to the Two Rivers, giving Moiraine the reason for Rand to leave? Or was it Ishamael for giving Padan Fain the ability to find Rand and co. so that he could give that information back to Ishamael, so that he sent the Trollocs and then gave Moiraine the reason to make Rand leave the Two Rivers? Or was it Lews Therin for sealing the Bore imperfectly allowing Ishamael the freedom he needed later on in the 3rd Age to be able to give Fain the ability to find Rand and co., so that Fain could give the information back to Ishamael so he could send the Trollocs to give Moiraine reason to make Rand leave the Two Rivers?
Or do the two Herons and two Dragons simply mean the two Herons and two Dragons that are on Rand's hands and fore arms? Consider wisely.
NargsBrood: 2005-03-01
How would Moiraine possibly allow Lan to have control over her? She wouldnt stand for it. The dominating one is he/she who has more power. Lan is a strong man.... obviously but Moiraine could deal with him in her sleep. He is a warder. He knows what he is and is very obedient about it.
Also, why would Rand need to prove himself as the dragon reborn and savior of the world if the Last Battle is over? There would be no need for anyone to accept him if its done and been and long gone. Let him whither away and die. Also, not just the prophecies have to be fulfilled. The foretellings have to be fulfilled as well. Mat giving up have the light of the world to save the world. He will be a part of the last battle. He will be a part of saving the world. He still has both eyes and so the saving of the world hasnt happened yet.
The battle at Falme was pretty cool but only a few nations were represented. 3 factions. Seanchan, Whitecloaks and Rand's litterally small force. 1-there has to be more nations backing rand(he has to unite them as per prophecy) 2-with 3 factions at falme, there is no unity. 3-Jordan wouldnt do that to us. He himself has talked about TG and how he has known for years how it was all going to turn out. Before he even started the series. Why would he write the last battle(which would suck for a last battle) in only the 2nd book? And then waste his time writing 10 more for not. It doesnt make sense. I realize I am rambling so I will end now. PazFuera!
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-02
"How would Moiraine possibly allow Lan to have control over her?"
I never said that. All I meant was that maybe Lan saved Moiraines life or something of that nature, so in essence she was only able to be in TTR in TEotW because of Lan. I wasn't saying that it was Lan's idea, but I will stress again that we do not know for certain(isn't the third prequel supposed to deal with this issue?)
"He will be a part of the last battle. He will be a part of saving the world."
He was at Falme. Blowing the Horn was his idea. He blew the Horn. He played the Heroes in to battle. He was involved.
"Also, why would Rand need to prove himself as the dragon reborn and savior of the world if the Last Battle is over? "
1: because nobody, includimg Rand himself, actually realises this.
2: because he still has a part of his Dragon destiny to fulfill, freeing man from the Shadow.
"3 factions. Seanchan, Whitecloaks and Rand's litterally small force"
More than three factions: Seanchan, Whitecloaks, Andor(Elayne,TTR people), Cairhien, Aes Sedai(both Moiraine), Shienar, Illian(BAyle Domon), possibly the Sea Folk as well, and the Aiel(Rand, through his father).
"which would suck for a last battle"
or was it
"The battle at Falme was pretty cool"
Well, okay, so it wasn't the most massive batlle scene ever. But so what? Has it occurred to you that TG could never live up to the hype we are all subjecting it to? Even a writer of RJ's descriptive ability, and he does write good battles, will struglle to make TG approach what we all want from it.
"And then waste his time writing 10 more"
A lot of emotional development has taken place since TGH, and RJ has said that he prefers writing about the relationships over the battles, so it wouldn't be pointless to him.
"As well, you missed the entire part of who actually "did this." "
But the point is that we can not know. Equally as valid as the examples you gave would be to blame Mierin for opening the bire in the first place, Tigraine for going to the Waste and starting the sequence of events that led to her having a child, Laman Damodred for cutting down the tree (forgot the name) and thereby bringing the Aiel across the Spine of the World so that Tigraine/Shaiel was at Dragonmount, maybe blame the Creator for putting the Prison where man could reach it. The list is potentially endless, and could conceivably include Lan as one of the top candidates.
"Or do the two Herons and two Dragons simply mean the two Herons and two Dragons that are on Rand's hands and fore arms?"
Possibly, but I still believe that there are alternative possibilities that must be considered in addition to the blindingly obvious.
"Consider wisely"
Why start now?
"Nicola's Foretelling is about what ~will happen~. "
Check the grammar. Past tense.
bigjellybeans: 2005-03-03
If the last battle has been and gone then why are Rand Perrin and Mat still with their taveren abilities?
NargsBrood: 2005-03-03
======
"He will be a part of the last battle. He will be a part of saving the world."
He was at Falme. Blowing the Horn was his idea. He blew the Horn. He played the Heroes in to battle. He was involved.
========
my oh my how you twist words. I was stressing the fact that he would give up half the light of the world to save the world. He hasnt given up half of the light of the world yet. he hasnt saved the world yet. any saving of any world will be at the last battle. it hasnt come yet because, again, he hasnt given up half of the light of the world.
========
"Also, why would Rand need to prove himself as the dragon reborn and savior of the world if the Last Battle is over? "
1: because nobody, includimg Rand himself, actually realises this.
2: because he still has a part of his Dragon destiny to fulfill, freeing man from the Shadow.
========
why does everyone and rand have to realize this if the TG is come and gone? If there is still shadow in the world then there hasnt been a last battle yet. there will still be battles to come. it isnt over yet. when it is, the last battle implies that there will be no more battles with the dark in this age. What does last battle mean to you?
what do you mean "or was it?" regarding multiple factions? The whitecloaks were going to attack the seanchan and were obliterated by rand's force. It was: Seanchan against WhiteCloaks & Rand. Whitecloaks against Rand and Seanchan. Rand against whitecloaks and Seanchan. 3 factions. No unity.
The battle at falme was NOT a "pretty cool" battle for the Last battle. relatively speaking, it sucked! LB will be much better even given all the hype we are giving it.
as has been said to myself many times, your ideas are too far fetched. I'll give $50 to everyone on theoryland if that ended up being the last battle. You give $50 to everyone if the last battle is yet to come. Deal?
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-03
"If the last battle has been and gone then why are Rand Perrin and Mat still with their taveren abilities?"
Presumably the Pattern requires ore of them than they have already done. There's more about Mat in this regard further down.
"why does everyone and rand have to realize this if the TG is come and gone?"
They don't have to, but since Rand doesn't realize the fact that he no longer must be recognized as the Dragon, he still wants to be recognized.
"what do you mean "or was it?" regarding multiple factions?"
You misunderstood me. "or was it" was referring to the fact that in one post you described the Falme battle as cool, then later said it would suck for TG, but I don't believe TG to be any different from any other battle in terms of scale. Only the presence of the three ta'veren and the Horn marks it as special. I was merely implying that you need to make your mind up IMO.
"3 factions"
Okay, but between them they represent far more than three groups. The list I gave last time was:
"Seanchan, Whitecloaks, Andor(Elayne,TTR people), Cairhien, Aes Sedai(both Moiraine), Shienar, Illian(BAyle Domon), possibly the Sea Folk as well, and the Aiel(Rand, through his father). "
although I'll admit I was wrong to say "more than three factions."
"relatively speaking, it sucked"
Say what now? The Horn of Valere bringing back dead heroes of legend, Rand fighting Ishamael in the sky, Seanchan damane blowing things up left, right and centre. What more do you want? All the extra corpses you seem to be after are just gory decoration.
"What does last battle mean to you?"
The last battle where the eventual outcome of the entire conflict is still undetermined.
To draw a real world parallel, take WW2 and Hitler's invasion of Russia. After the battle of Kursk, there is no way that the Nazi's can win, but the Russians still have a lot of work to do over the next two years before they finally take Berlin.
Similarly, I believe that there is no way back for the Shadow after Falme. It is all just a matter of time until the Light wins.
"I was stressing the fact that he would give up half the light of the world to save the world"
The Finn never said what Mat would be saving the world from. Not once do they mention the Shadow or TG or anything of that nature in relation to giving up half the light of the world. It doesn't have to be connected to the last battle at all. This could be the reason why Mat remains ta'veren.
"as has been said to myself many times, your ideas are too far fetched. I'll give $50 to everyone on theoryland if that ended up being the last battle. You give $50 to everyone if the last battle is yet to come. Deal?"
Umm.... hahahahahahaha. No.
Sampson: 2005-03-03
The first thing that popped into my mind to dispute your theory is:
1. The Forsaken are still loose.
a. They are still setting the stones on the board for when the dark one can be set free.
2. The dark one's touch is getting stronger.
3. Ishy/Mordin (the DO's Champ) has been reincarnated.
I do not see these covered in your argument.
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-04
"The Forsaken are still loose. "
The victory of the light is guaranteed, but has not happened yet.
"They are still setting the stones on the board for when the dark one can be set free"
Actually I have covered this already, but one more time can't hurt. The Forsaken (and everyone else for that matter) are ignorant of their inevitable defeat. Therefore, they continue to plot and plan for something that will never happen.
"Ishy/Mordin (the DO's Champ) has been reincarnated"
IIRC Ishamael is never seen wielding a staff after Falme. Let me theorise this: the staff is the symbol of the Shadow's champion; without the staff, Ishamael is merely the chief Forsaken.
Bring Eben Back: 2005-03-04
The big problem that I see with the theory is the fact that in book 2 Fain states that they will meet again on Toman Head.... Moirane goes to those other 2 Aes Sedai that know so much and does some research, and she is told that the prophesies do link the Dragon Reborn to Toman Head. Basically it states that above Toman Head he shall proclaim himself...or something like that. This is where people get their first glimps that the Dragon has been reborn.
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-05
"This is where people get their first glimps that the Dragon has been reborn"
I have said before and will say again that what people acknowledge as true and what is true are two completely different things. I do not believe that Rand had to be acknowledged as the Dragon before he could win TG.
Callandor: 2005-03-05
**Possibly, but I still believe that there are alternative possibilities that must be considered in addition to the blindingly obvious.**
Ok, consider all you want. Realize how pathetically stupid those ones will be though, before you promote that the Last Battle hasn't occured yet.
**Presumably the Pattern requires ore of them than they have already done. There's more about Mat in this regard further down.**
Of course the Pattern requires things to be done afterwards, and would keep their ta'veren nature -- but the peak of their "ta'vereness" would have already been reached by Falme. Rand had yet to even unite the Aiel for his side, as well as the ta'veren forces required for Dumai's Wells alone.
What about the "fireflies" that Min sees? If the Last Battle was already gone, why is that viewing even there still?
**To draw a real world parallel, take WW2 and Hitler's invasion of Russia. After the battle of Kursk, there is no way that the Nazi's can win, but the Russians still have a lot of work to do over the next two years before they finally take Berlin.**
Stalingrad actually; Kursk was a few days later. But the battles of El Alamein in Africa were certainly a factor was well.
**The victory of the light is guaranteed, but has not happened yet.**
Not be vulgar, but no s***! That victory is the Last Battle!
**IIRC Ishamael is never seen wielding a staff after Falme. Let me theorise this: the staff is the symbol of the Shadow's champion; without the staff, Ishamael is merely the chief Forsaken.**
..... Righttttttt....
And being Nae'blis is nothing at all of a smybol of the champion. The Dark One picking his regent, his overlord, of the world and that being Ishamael/Moridin, is ~NOT~ a symbol of him being the Dark One's champion? Boy, Ishamael is just a moron then, huh?
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-06
"And being Nae'blis is nothing at all of a smybol of the champion. The Dark One picking his regent, his overlord, of the world and that being Ishamael/Moridin, is ~NOT~ a symbol of him being the Dark One's champion?"
These are symbol's of a champion picked by the DO himself. The staff is the symbol of the champion who was picked by the Pattern.
"Boy, Ishamael is just a moron then, huh?"
Yep. And he's insane.
"Stalingrad actually; Kursk was a few days later"
I dsiagree, but whichever battle you believe to have been the turning point, the important fact is that two more years of war follow.
"Ok, consider all you want. Realize how pathetically stupid those ones will be"
Not stupid. How is it stupid to look beyond the interpretations that are rammed down your throat? Hard to believe, outlandish, even a little crazy, but not stupid.
"Rand had yet to even unite the Aiel for his side"
Because he's done so well at that particular task, hasn't he?
"the ta'veren forces required for Dumai's Wells alone. "
How can you quantify the power of ta'veren swirls? This cannotbe done, so their is no possible way that you can claim Dumai's wells took more ta'verenness than Falme.
"Not be vulgar, but no s***! That victory is the Last Battle!"
Can you find me direct quotes from the text that say this?
Asmodean: 2005-03-24
umm..yea..this one definitely needed my response..sorry yaga..as interesting as yur theory is..it just isnt correct. Belive what u want..but I can assure u..the last battle has yet to come...Bob wouldnt have written 8 more books and more to come if the part all the readers have been waiting fr..has already occured..it will be soon..but not yet..there are still some things that have yet to be done first
Bane Darkwulf: 2005-03-24
I agree to a point, that is the point where Yaga says it has gone.
I believe the Dragon has to deny the DO up untill the point of his death, which will happen when he reseals the Bore.
Callandor: 2005-03-24
**These are symbol's of a champion picked by the DO himself. The staff is the symbol of the champion who was picked by the Pattern.**
I don't even know what you are saying here.
**Yep. And he's insane.**
No, he's not. Partially -- possibly.
**Because he's done so well at that particular task, hasn't he?**
.... O...k...
You do realize that Rand has technically united the Aiel, since the Shaido have for the most part broken away? Not to mention the fact that they can easily be the ones to be destoryed, and only further prove the point.
But Rand's failure to get the Shaido on his side, but getting the other 11 clans united and working together, is just something to shake off? Doesn't the fact that Rand has yet, in your opinion, to totally unite the Aiel, signify that it still will happen, and require some impressive force?
**How can you quantify the power of ta'veren swirls? This cannotbe done, so their is no possible way that you can claim Dumai's wells took more ta'verenness than Falme.**
1. Yes, you can quantify ta'veren, because it is remarked numerous times that Rand is the stronger ta'veren of the three, and of the Age.
2. Ta'veren forces only increase. RJ has confirmed that Rand, Mat, and Perrin became ta'veren right before Moiraine and Lan came to the Two Rivers. And as Moiraine says:
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 42 - Remembrance of Dreams
"So they are," Moiraine said. "Three of them, when I expected one. A great many things have happened that I did not expect. This news concerning the Eye of the World changes much." She paused, frowning. *"For a time the Pattern does seem to be swirling around all three of you, just as Loial says, ~and the swirl will grow greater before it becomes less.~* Sometimes being ta'veren means the Pattern is forced to bend to you, and sometimes it means the Pattern forces you to the needed path. The Web can still be woven many ways, and some of those designs would be disastrous. For you, for the world.**
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 22 - Watchers
"Ta'veren," Moiraine sighed. "Perhaps it was that. *Rather than guiding a chip floating down a stream, I am trying to guide a log through rapids. Every time I push at it, it pushes at me, ~and the log grows larger the farther we go.~* Yet I must see it through to the end." She gave a little laugh. "I will not be unhappy, my old friend, if you manage to put those plans awry. Now, please leave me. I need to be alone to think." He hesitated only a moment before turning for the door. At the last moment, though, she could not let him go without one more question. "Do you ever dream of something different, Lan?"**
And just follow the correlation between length of time, and amount of power/control Rand, Mat, and Perrin have.
All start out with practically nothing, and now each of them has an army (Mat's seperated from his, and Perrin is more of a figurehead leader, but meh).
**Can you find me direct quotes from the text that say this?**
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: Prologue - In the Shadow
"Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end. The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all tier that bind. *Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, ~yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle,~ and his blood shall give us the Light.* Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation.**
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 26 - Discord
"I . . . didn't want to upset him. He's nervous enough about the Horn. That's what I wanted to ask. Is the Horn mentioned in the - the Prophecies?" He still could not make himself say it all the way out. "All these false Dragons, and now the Horn is found. Everybody thinks the Horn of Valere is supposed to summon dead heroes to fight the Dark One in the Last Battle, and the . . . ~the Dragon Reborn . . . is supposed to fight the Dark One in the Last Battle.~ It seemed natural enough to ask."**
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
"Dragon, Prophecies of the: Little known and seldom spoken of, the Prophecies, given in The Karaethon Cycle, foretell that the Dark One will be freed again to touch the world. ~And that Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, Breaker of the World, will be reborn to fight Tarmon Gai'don, the Last Battle against the Shadow.~ See also Dragon, the.**
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow
"There were few men among the petitioners, which was no surprise to Min. Most men were nervous around Aes Sedai. Everyone knew it had been male Aes Sedai, when there still had been male Aes Sedai, who were responsible for the Breaking of the World. Three thousand years had not dimmed that memory, even if time had altered many of the details. Children were still frightened by tales of men who could channel the One Power, men doomed to go mad from the Dark One's taint on saidin, the male half of the True Source. Worst was the story of Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, Lews Therin Kinslayer, who had begun the Breaking. For that matter, the stories frightened adults, too. *~Prophecy said the Dragon would be born again in mankind's greatest hour of need, to fight the Dark One in Tarmon Gai'don, the Last Battle,~ but that made little difference in how most people looked at any connection between men and the Power.* Any Aes Sedai would hunt down a man who could channel, now; of the seven Ajahs, the Red did little else.**
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow
"This isn't a story, he isn't some invincible hero, and if his thread is snipped out of the Pattern, the Wheel of Time won't notice his going, and the Creator will produce no miracles to save us: If Moiraine cannot reef his sails, he very well may get himself killed, and where are we then? Where is the world? *The Dark One's prison is failing. He will touch the world again; it is only a matter of time. ~If Rand al'Thor is not there to face him in the Last Battle,~ if the headstrong young fool gets himself killed first, the world is doomed.* The War of the Power all over again, with no Lews Therin and his Hundred Companions, Then fire and shadow, forever." She stopped suddenly, peering at Min's face. "So that's the way the wind sets, is it? You and Rand. I did not expect this."**
This one takes a tiny bit of thought, but if obviously applies:
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow
"Apart from everything else, it infuriated her that she could not find Elayne. Elaida had the Foretelling sometimes, the ability to foresee future events. If it came seldom and faintly, that was still more than any Aes Sedai had had since Gitara Moroso, dead now twenty years. *The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted-and had known enough even then to keep to herself-~was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle.~* She had attached herself to Morgase as soon as it was clear Morgase would succeed to the throne, had built her influence year by patient year. And now all her effort, all her sacrifice-she might have been Amyrlin herself had she not concentrated all her energies on Andor-might be for naught because Elayne had disappeared.**
More needed?
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-24
Not that this is truly relevant to my theory, but didn't RJ say that it would take two or three books to do TG properly, and that the twelfth book would be the last? Assuming these to be the case we are left with two principal possibilites:
1)KoD will rapidly finish off all extraneous plotlines before concerning itself largely with the events of TG
or
2)The last battle will not be done properly.
I can't see RJ altering his style so drastically as to wrap up Perrin, Elayne+the throne of Andor, the Black Tower, Mat+Tuon, Egwene's capture and the Seanchan negotiations in the bare minimum of words (which, for such a high number of plotlines is still a hell of a lot of words) so, unless these will all form skirmishes to the true Last Battle, it seems that option (1) is out the window. Leaving only the possibility that RJ has no intention of doing TG "properly".
What this seems to say to me is that what we expect of TG is nothing like what will actually happen.
And what is the last thing anyone expects? For TG to have been and gone.
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-26
"I don't even know what you are saying here."
Remember when Pedron Niall wanted to scare the people in to rallying behind the Children of the Light so that he could be the one to save the world? Well, had this plan succeeded, he would have effectively been the self appointed Champion of the Light, but Rand, the Dragon, would still have been the champion of the Light picked by the pattern.
In the same way, before Falme, Ishamael was the Champion of the Shadow, and was recognised in this function by the Pattern. After Falme, the pattern no longer acknowledges him in this office, because, according to this theory, he had lost at TG. But the DO named him nae'blis and continues to have him as his champion.
"You do realize that Rand has technically united the Aiel, since the Shaido have for the most part broken away? Not to mention the fact that they can easily be the ones to be destoryed, and only further prove the point."
You also forgot the Brotherless and those who are overcome by the Bleakness. He would also need to bring them under his control in some fashion before I would say he has completely united the Aiel.
"1. Yes, you can quantify ta'veren, because it is remarked numerous times that Rand is the stronger ta'veren of the three, and of the Age."
"stronger" is still a qualitaative term. Is there a number you can apply to the strength of the pull on the pattern? I believe not. I don't see how you cann say that, for example, it took twice as much ta'verenness to acheive success at Dumai's Wells as it did at Falme, or whatever.
"Ta'veren forces only increase."
Don't think so, Callandor. Read the quotation you posted, especially the part you highlighted: "the swirl will grow greater before it becomes less"
"Before it becomes less" means that either you are wrong in your assertion that ta'veren force can only increase, or your "expert testimony" is unreliable.
"Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, ~yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle,~ and his blood shall give us the Light.* "
But he bled at Falme, as I said before, and the Shadow was at Falme.
"~the Dragon Reborn . . . is supposed to fight the Dark One in the Last Battle.~ "
"supposed to" yes, that sounds very certain, doesn't it? Also, please could you put this in context for me, i don't have access to my copy of TGH at the moment.
"More needed?"
How about some that actually apply?
free will: 2005-03-26
I have a question about Moiranne Sedai (MS). All she cared about was helping Rand with the Last Battle, and presumeable that's what she asked the Finns about. So did they tell her that the only way to fight in the last battle was to go to the other Finns and request to be time travelled back to a powerful channeller (maybe in the Seanchan side) to be in Falme again and help out? Seems a bit far fetched to work the Finns and MS into your theory, but if you did that super well, then I might come around to your theory.
Another big problem with your theory is that you says that doing TG properly would take multiple books, but what he did at Falme didn't take multiple books, so why would he say that? Are you going with the idea that Falme is an example of "not doing a battle well", and can you SERIOUSLY imagine spending multiple books doing that battle's description? You've got a self-consistency problem going on, it looks to me. Or am I just missing something?
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-26
"Another big problem with your theory is that you says that doing TG properly would take multiple books, but what he did at Falme didn't take multiple books, so why would he say that? Are you going with the idea that Falme is an example of "not doing a battle well", and can you SERIOUSLY imagine spending multiple books doing that battle's description? You've got a self-consistency problem going on, it looks to me. Or am I just missing something? "
Just for a moment, suppose that I am correct, and Falme was TG. Judging from the reactions to this theory, it was not done properly in most people's opinions.
It seems to me that what would constitute a "proper" Last Battle would be a combination of: really huge armies on both sides; thousands of channelers hurling Power-y death; cannons; Ogier; the Forsaken en masse; Rand killing a lot; Callandor; the Choeden Kal; tens of thousands of corpses; Lan doing his world's best swordsman thing; Shaidar Haran; ghosts; The Horn of Valere; Seanchan; etc. etc. To do such a battle would require many books, if for no other reason than because of the volume of PoV characters needed to satisfy people: Rand; Mat; Perrin; Gawyn; Lan; Tuon; Egwene; Nynaeve; Aviendha; etc. etc.
To avoid the problem of doing the Last Battle in a manner that seems proper to the readers, RJ has written a Last Battle that contains all the major elements, but is low on scale.
So, basically, yes I am proposing that Falme was an example of a battle not done according to expectation.
" I have a question about Moiranne Sedai (MS). All she cared about was helping Rand with the Last Battle, and presumeable that's what she asked the Finns about. So did they tell her that the only way to fight in the last battle was to go to the other Finns and request to be time travelled back to a powerful channeller (maybe in the Seanchan side) to be in Falme again and help out? Seems a bit far fetched to work the Finns and MS into your theory, but if you did that super well, then I might come around to your theory. "
With regards to Moiraine: she was there. How or why or what she did we don't know, but she was definitely there.
As for the Finns: I don't know. they may have given Moiraine an answer so twisty that she could not pick it apart and realise that the answer is "ha ha, you've already done it" On the other hand, would she have dared to ask the Finns about TG? Sounds too close to a question touching the Shadow.
Callandor: 2005-03-26
**Remember when Pedron Niall wanted to scare the people in to rallying behind the Children of the Light so that he could be the one to save the world? Well, had this plan succeeded, he would have effectively been the self appointed Champion of the Light, but Rand, the Dragon, would still have been the champion of the Light picked by the pattern.
In the same way, before Falme, Ishamael was the Champion of the Shadow, and was recognised in this function by the Pattern. After Falme, the pattern no longer acknowledges him in this office, because, according to this theory, he had lost at TG. But the DO named him nae'blis and continues to have him as his champion.**
Once again, what are you saying? Rand is the Dragon Reborn -- he is the champion of the light no matter what. The champion of the Shadow is "picked" by the Dark One -- obviously Ishamael. The pattern doesn't actively recognize and not recognize either champion -- it plans ahead of time who will be the champions.
**You also forgot the Brotherless and those who are overcome by the Bleakness. He would also need to bring them under his control in some fashion before I would say he has completely united the Aiel.**
Or they too are also destroyed, most likely in conflict with the Shaido.
**Don't think so, Callandor. Read the quotation you posted, especially the part you highlighted: "the swirl will grow greater before it becomes less"
"Before it becomes less" means that either you are wrong in your assertion that ta'veren force can only increase, or your "expert testimony" is unreliable.**
Sorry I misspoke -- ta'veren forces only increase after one becomes ta'veren.
In other words, since the beginning of the series, when Rand, Mat, and Perrin became ta'veren (an event said explictly by RJ to be just before Moiraine and Lan entered the Two Rivers), they have continued to get more powerful.
By this, your theory states that Rand, Mat, and Perrin were strong enough to win the Last Battle by Falme -- which just cancels out all necessary ta'veren forces needed afterwards. No Two Rivers rallying by Perrin; no general commanding by Mat, and army building, in the Battle of Cairhien; no fall of the Stone of Tear, nor uniting (yes, they are unitied) of the Aiel by Rand, nor Dumai's Wells and bowing of Aes Sedai, nor Cleasing of saidin.
All of those are deemed irrelevant by your theory because the Last Battle is over and done with.
**But he bled at Falme, as I said before, and the Shadow was at Falme.**
His wound cauterized. No blood.
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 48 - First Claiming
"A hasty examination showed that most of his cuts and bruises were not new - at least, the blood had had time to dry in a crust, and the bruises had started to turn yellow at the edges - but there was a hole burned through his coat on the left side. Opening his coat, she pulled up his shirt. Breath whistled through her teeth. ~There was a wound burned into his side, but it had cauterized itself.~ What shook her was the feel of his flesh. It had a touch of ice in it; he made the air seem warm.**
Unless you count the wounds given to him from Turak the bleeding of mankind, in which you might as well say any wound down to paper cuts are.
**"supposed to" yes, that sounds very certain, doesn't it? Also, please could you put this in context for me, i don't have access to my copy of TGH at the moment.**
Sure: Rand is trying to maintain subtlety to Thom and asking about the prophecies, without coming outright and saying "I'm the Dragon Reborn, what am I to do?"
So, how about dealing with the other quotes, now? The ones where what you see as ambiguity, is clearly gone? There's 5 more then the one you are doubting.
**How about some that actually apply?**
How about reading them first? And seeing that they do apply.
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-28
"Sorry I misspoke -- ta'veren forces only increase after one becomes ta'veren."
Then why is it that Moiraine states explicitly that the swirls will become less?
"-~was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle.~* "
We all ready covered this, and agreed that this was a reference to Rand. It doesn't matter when anybody thinks TG was, if Rand was there, this requirement was met.
"Rand al'Thor is not there to face him in the Last Battle"
As above. This has no bearing on what I am saying because Rand was at Falme.
"Prophecy said the Dragon would be born again in mankind's greatest hour of need, to fight the Dark One in Tarmon Gai'don, the Last Battle"
Same as above.
" ~And that Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, Breaker of the World, will be reborn to fight Tarmon Gai'don, the Last Battle against the Shadow.~"
Same as above.
"the Dragon Reborn . . . is supposed to fight the Dark One in the Last Battle"
Same as above.
"So, how about dealing with the other quotes, now? The ones where what you see as ambiguity, is clearly gone? There's 5 more then the one you are doubting."
Happy now? Not that those quotations acheived anything.
Sampson: 2005-03-28
Yaga, I see you point! Theoretically Flame could have been the last battle and the rest of the books and story line is post victory. Nothing is impossible; some things are highly improbable though. I will acknowledge that your theory is possible, but I find it highly improbable.
The series is about the light overcoming the dark, good against evil. It is also about patterns being repeated over an extended period of time. Ages that took place and are suppose to take place again.
I think that the last battle is going to have to winnow out allot of channelers and most of the war mongers and create an environment that humanity has conquered the shadow and now they have to start on the road where there can be dedicated people who serve humanity and the way of the leaf, and where the powerful are the ones who are servants (i.e. the AOL).
Flame was the “official” announcement that the Dragon has been reborn. It set into motion the subsequent tasks that have to be accomplished in setting the last battle up. The tasks or I should say the pattern is getting all the resources ready and moving them into position and setting up the environment where (1) the light has a good chance to prevail & (2) that if the light succeeds than the pattern can start the weave for a new age.
In the big picture I can say that you might be right, Flame was the first “skirmish” of the last battle. But regardless of how you spin it and manipulate the data, a new age hasn't started; the DO hasn't been imprisoned into a state like new. The wheel still needs that to happen if it is going to be drilled open again. Rand, Mat & Perrin can still fail which can move the momentum and change the balance in the DO favor.
Callandor: 2005-03-28
**Then why is it that Moiraine states explicitly that the swirls will become less?**
Argh, I keep thinking faster then i type.
When you have a person become a ta'veren, the Wheel decides when (if you wish to debate it being the Pattern, I can see it, but in this case, we know the Dragon is a Hero of the Horn, and the Heroes are spun out to make corrections as deemed by the Wheel -- just a generalization for the time being). RJ said that Rand, Mat, and Perrin became ta'veren just before Moiraine and Lan came to the Two Rivers (I'd put it as like at most 3 days beforehand, but that's me talking, not RJ). However the Wheel decides the strength that the ta'veren reaches, until they reach the peak of their "ta'veren force", they do nothing but increase in it.
You don't have a ta'veren that can bend nations one day, then they can't get the branch to come to their rescue when drowning in the river, and the next day (however they survived...) go back to bending nations again. The forces increase continually until they reach their peak. Once there, as a point no doubt perscribed by the Wheel (after all if it decides when to insert corrections, it will decide when to stop them), the forces fall off.
Rand, Mat, and Perrin, have shown absolutely no sign of dropping in ta'veren forces -- in anything they have always gotten more and more powerful in this fashion. Which makes perfect sense when you think that the Last Battle is not done yet.
If Falme was the Last Battle, and the Dragon's purpose in this Age is the confront the Dark One and win the Last Battle, there is no need for ta'veren forces any longer after that point. There maybe some for a little bit afterwards, but for the length of time we are seeing now? The Battle of Cairhien was a fantastic event of ta'veren forces -- totally unneeded if the Last Battle is over. Same with Dumai's Wells. Same with any of the dealings with the Sea Folk, Aiel, or any nobles. Same with the Cleansing. Same with the battle of the Two Rivers. All of these and more are unnecessary effects, if the Last Battle was the peak of ta'veren forces (since it's the Dragon's main purpose -- think of it like the main correction to make), and if the Last Battle was at Falme.
It makes no sense.
**We all ready covered this, and agreed that this was a reference to Rand. It doesn't matter when anybody thinks TG was, if Rand was there, this requirement was met.**
Yeah, except that wasn't my point.
1. The quote shows the direct correlation to defeat of Dark One in the Last Battle. This at the hands of the Dragon Reborn (the royal line of Andor).
2. Rand did not face the Dark One in Falme; he fought Ishamael. Now, whether you want to draw semantics and plot interpretations into it (Rand facing the Dark One or the champions battling it out), Rand "facing" the Dark One seems quite unlikely. Much more likely, is that this is mankind, being led by the Dragon, to re-seal the Dark One: hence facing him and defeating him (this can also have the battle of champions in it).
Rand fighting Ishamael at Falme, does not constitute a Last Battle -- because there was no re-sealing. There was absolutely no involvement on the part of the Dark One -- as far as we know, while Falme was going on he was getting his nails done.
**Happy now? Not that those quotations acheived anything.**
No, I'm not happy now, since you seem to be arguing for a point that serves no purpose.
The Dragon will fight in the Last Battle -- Rand was at Falme. Duh!
But Rand did not fight, face, come in contact with, or even get near the Dark One, as all those quote say he will.
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-03-29
**"Rand al'Thor is not there to face him in the Last Battle"
As above. This has no bearing on what I am saying because Rand was at Falme.
"Prophecy said the Dragon would be born again in mankind's greatest hour of need, to fight the Dark One in Tarmon Gai'don, the Last Battle"
Same as above.
" ~And that Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, Breaker of the World, will be reborn to fight Tarmon Gai'don, the Last Battle against the Shadow.~"
Same as above.
"the Dragon Reborn . . . is supposed to fight the Dark One in the Last Battle"
Same as above.
"So, how about dealing with the other quotes, now? The ones where what you see as ambiguity, is clearly gone? There's 5 more then the one you are doubting."
Happy now? Not that those quotations acheived anything. **
My problem with this is that it is arguing against your theory. They all involve Rand fighting the DO in the last battle, not the champion of the Shadow. You are arguing that TG involves the champions of the Light and Shadow, while the quotes that you had put up that I copied specifically say Rand will fight the Dark One. You are arguing against your own theory...
And by the way, those quotations did achieve something: They prove that the Last Battle hasn't happened yet because Rand has yet to face the Dark One himself.
Asmodean: 2005-03-29
Crossroads at Twilight...A Stengthening Storm...676
** Rand leaned back in his chair, careful not to let his tiredness show. The seals on the Dark One's prison on one hand, Taim splitting the Asha'man on the other. Was the seventh seal already broken? Was the Shadow begining the opening moves of the Last Battle?**
umm..yea..tell me this..why in the hell would our protagonist be thinking whether or not the Shadow began the opening moves of the Last Battle if the battle has come and gone?..exactly..he wouldn't..we still have yet to see the battle...and he isnt the only one who KNOWS the battle has yet to come..on the next page of that same chapter..Elza talked about Rand making it to Tarmon Gai'don so the Dark One could defeat him there...and I am pretty sure if the Last Battle has come and gone..like u claim that it has..wouldn't she at least know about it?..Or are u implying that EVERYONE in Randland..including the Dark One himself..are completely moronic and don't realize that the battle is over?..no..it just doesn't make sense..sorry..try another one..game over...please drive through.
And think back to LoC...we get to see the Dark One actually speak...now..if this is all Post Tarmon Gai'don...wouldn't he be ranting and raving about how worthless his forces are...losing to a boy in the Last Battle?...instead..he was discussing his plans for our Champion of the Light...his plans for all things leading to the Last Battle..DO wouldn't waste time making pre-Tarmon Gai'don plans if it has been and gone. And sorry to say..but I am pretty sure the Dark One would have a better idea than u do if the Last Battle has happened or not. And he hasn't said anything to imply that..so yea..quit wasting yur time on this one...Tarmon Gai'don has still yet to come...just admit this thread is bogus..and lets move on to more important ones eh?
Jiana: 2005-03-29
Yaga, you said in one post: "but I don't believe TG to be any different from any other battle in terms of scale."
I take it that you meant "scale" in terms of how large the battle is, i.e., numbers, battleground, weapons both physical and not, etc.
Then you went on in a later post to say: "It seems to me that what would constitute a "proper" Last Battle would be a combination of: really huge armies on both sides; thousands of channelers hurling Power-y death; cannons; Ogier; the Forsaken en masse; Rand killing a lot; Callandor; the Choeden Kal; tens of thousands of corpses; Lan doing his world's best swordsman thing; Shaidar Haran; ghosts; The Horn of Valere; Seanchan; etc. etc. To do such a battle would require many books, if for no other reason than because of the volume of PoV characters needed to satisfy people: Rand; Mat; Perrin; Gawyn; Lan; Tuon; Egwene; Nynaeve; Aviendha; etc. etc."
I might have misunderstood, but it seems that first you are saying that the scale of TG would be no different from any of the battles we have seen. Then in the later post, you stated that TG would include many MANY more armies, channelers, weapons, and elements than we have yet seen in ANY battle. Did you contradict yourself?
Then there was this little tidbit.
Callandor said: "Sorry I misspoke -- ta'veren forces only increase after one becomes ta'veren." Then you said: "Then why is it that Moiraine states explicitly that the swirls will become less?"
Because something has to be there, and be large, before it becomes less. The swirls will become less when Rand, Mat, and Perrin have done ALL that the Pattern means for them to do. Until then, think of it as a tidal wave... Begins small, and increases by great volume, and CONTINUES to increase, until it breaks and begins to ebb.
As for the part of your post regarding PoV characters needed to satisfy people... RJ is, believe it or not, actually capable of relating more than one PoV at a time. It would not be necessary for him to use an entire chapter or two or three to relate each individual PoV. The LB is yet to come... Falme was but a taste of it. The REAL thing will be much, much larger, and much, much messier. THE END. :)
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-31
"Did you contradict yourself? "
No.
What I meant was this:
Consider what most people would expect the last battle to be like: big, bloody, violent, etc.(This was the contents of the second post you quoted)
Now consider that the proposed time scale for the concluding of the series is two books, and the number of additional plotlines to be resolved.
My point here is that it seems as though there is not enough space left for everything we as the readers seem to be expecting. So, logically, things have got to be a lot smaller than we expect. So what better way than a small last battle way back in book two?
"Because something has to be there, and be large, before it becomes less. The swirls will become less when Rand, Mat, and Perrin have done ALL that the Pattern means for them to do. Until then, think of it as a tidal wave... Begins small, and increases by great volume, and CONTINUES to increase, until it breaks and begins to ebb."
But the implication of the quote from Callandor you gave was that ta'veren strength could not decrease. He has since explained, in basically the same way as you.
Callandor: 2005-04-01
**My point here is that it seems as though there is not enough space left for everything we as the readers seem to be expecting. So, logically, things have got to be a lot smaller than we expect. So what better way than a small last battle way back in book two?**
That assumes that everything ~will~ be wrapped up. RJ has said explicitly that not all subplots will be. All the major storylines wil, however, but not ~everything~. Wrapping up the major story lines can easily happen in two books, without making things "smaller" in scope or anything.
ravear: 2005-04-03
What about all the times the forsaken talk about "the day of return?" What about all of Min's prophecies? What about the weakening of the seals & all of Moridin's plans?
if this is the caliber of theories i'll find on this site ... i'm already regretting signing up
Yaga Shura: 2005-04-03
"What about all the times the forsaken talk about "the day of return?" What about all of Min's prophecies? What about the weakening of the seals & all of Moridin's plans?
if this is the caliber of theories i'll find on this site ... i'm already regretting signing up "
Firstly, if I have to say this one more time I might scream:
WHY DO YOU THINK THE FORSAKEN ARE RIGHT? WHO SAYS THEY WOULD KNOW IF THE LAST BATTLE HAD BEEN AND GONE OR NOT?
And secondly, it's just me. Avoid any thread started be me and you'll find the quality shooting up :)
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-04-04
Maybe the forsaken wouldn't... but Min's viewings and the dark one sure would know if TG was over. The DO has said specifically something like "the day of return will come soon" (Sorry, don't have my books). Tarmon Gaidon-still to come.
Jiana: 2005-04-04
"But the implication of the quote from Callandor you gave was that ta'veren strength could not decrease. He has since explained, in basically the same way as you."
I realized that when I made my reply. I made the reply anyway because it seems that at times you have trouble taking a point. It couldn't have hurt anything to reiterate. :)