To anger the Ogier..."
by Rune420: 2005-03-12 | Not yet rated
I have delayed a long time in my submission of this theory, It's been tucked away in a corner of my mind for a few years. But I have not seen anything reguarding this in any message board, theory, or discussion on the WoT. Interestingly, when I chose the theory category, there was not even a category for it (although, "the last battle", might have worked). My theory is about the ogier, and the part that they will play in the coming events in Randland.
I think that the Ogier are now deciding if, and/or when, they will support Rand when the last battle comes.
Throughout the story there has been many allusions to the old saying "To anger the Ogier is to bring the mountain down on your head", too many to quote them all here, but I think there is no need, as you all know what I am talking about. I don't think that Robert Jordan stressed that point just for the reason of trying to mythify the Ogiers. I believe that he is hinting at the fact that the Ogier will fight in the Last battle.
I truly wish I could recover the quotes that say that the Ogier "Grand Stump" has been called, and the quotes that say that the Ogier seem withdrawn from the world, moreso of late, but I don't have my books with me right now.
I should probably spend more time on this Theory, but It's late, and I'm tired. I'm content to let you people chalk it off to the fact that this is my first theory (where before I had always been a "lurker"). I'm eager to hear your responses on this.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-03-13
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Here are the quotes you're remembering:
Crossroads of Twilight CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm: "... The Great Stump is meeting in Shangtai, and that will attract crowds. This is the first time a Great Stump has been called in a thousand years, not since you humans fought the War of the Hundred Years, and it was Shangtai's turn. They must be considering something very important, but no one would tell me why it was called. They won't tell you about any Stump until you have a beard,"
Crossroads of Twilight CHAPTER: GLOSSARY:
Stump: A public meeting among the Ogier The meeting can be within or between stedding It is presided over by the Council of Elders of a studding, but any adult Ogier may speak, or may choose an advocate to speak for him A Stump is often held at the largest tree Stump in a sledding, and may last for several years. When a question arises that affects all Ogier, a Great Stump is held, and Ogier from all sledding meet to address the question The various stedding take turns hosting a Great Stump.
CoT also has a quote saying that turning over control of the Waygates to humans sould require Stump approval. Rand's request regarding Waygates might be one of the reasons why a Great Stump was called, but I seriously doubt that's the only reason.
2
scope: 2005-03-13
I agree, the Ogier will have a role in the Last battle. Thinking about the way their involvement has been hinted at rather then spelt out it's likely that their arrival in the fight will be a surprise.
If I may quote Lord of the Rings a 'the eagles are coming!' kind of entrance. (but on the ground, obviously)
3
Gareth: 2005-03-13
The Ogier Great Stump has to adress two problems:
The obvious one is the Dragon Reborn and the Last Battle. The Ogiers have to see what consequences all of the turmoils among the humans have on them and to decide wether they take an active role or not
The second is the Ogier Gardeners that serve in the Deathwatch Guard. It looks like sort of a cultural revolution may occur. The Randland Ogier have a peaceful way of life, they cannot leave the stedding for long without suffering from the Longing and they don't meddle with human affairs to the point that many Randlanders think they are only characters from children tales.
On the contrary, not only Seachan Ogiers don't seem to avoid violence but they also serve as a military body; they don't seem to suffer from the Longing and they take an active part in the Seanchan affairs since the Gardeners we know of are part of the bodyguard of the heir of the empress.
In the light of that, the Randland Ogiers have or will have to reconsider what they are and how they live since now they have proof that their way of life isn't part of their nature
4
bigjellybeans: 2005-03-13
There is no doubt that any ogier can certaintly hold it's own in a battle. The only thing is that ogier have generally seemed a more peaceful culture than the others. Would they fight? possibly but I see them taking a more secondary role in the last battle. Anyones guess as to what that might be.
5
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-03-13
I wonder if The Great Stump will still be debating when the moment of the Last Battle arrives, and Loial arrives without permission, to say something like "The moment of the Last Battle is upon us, the time for debate has passed, now is the time for us to choose"....or some such.
6
Topaz Ashaman: 2005-03-14
Personally, I think the Ogier follow a philosophy somewhat akin to the way of the leaf, but they can be moved to violence if it's the last resort. (I.e. Loial throwing around the Trolloc that attacked Rand in TGH.) I think it would take a Forsaken or high-ranking Darkfriend to commit some horrible atrocity to provoke the Ogier to open battle. And this of course would be a force to be reckoned with. Thus, (keeping in mind the generally black demeanor of some of our antagonists), I don't think it's beyond the scope of reason that the Ogier might be pulled into the Last Battle after Ishamael torches a Stedding.
7
Sampson: 2005-03-14
I think the “Last Battle” and what that means will ensure that the Ogier will participate in it. The Ogier are more intelligent and knowledgeable than humans. Once the decision is made to aid the humans, I'm sure they will participate and fight with all resources available.
But as a side note, since the Seanchan Ogier do not suffer the longing (is this fact or just a question submitted to RJ?), I assume they will meet with the Randland Ogier, most likely they will breed with each other and getting rid of the Longing.
8
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-14
Maybe the ogier will be involved in TG by helping the forces of the Light to use the ways. I know they have travelling now, but it couldn't hurt to have another, slightly more mundane, method of fast travel.
9
terez: 2005-03-14
Don't forget that Loial already put that long handle on his axe way back in tSR.
10
Topaz Ashaman: 2005-03-15
In response to what Sampson asked, this is a quote from RJ, taken from the TOR website:
"There are many more stedding in Seanchan than there are in the part of the world where the story is taking place, and that is why the Seanchan Ogier don't suffer from the Longing. Because there are so many more stedding, they were able to find them more easily even during the Breaking and therefore never had the very extended separation that Ogier on this side of the Aryth Ocean had, though they seldom were able to settle in one for very long until the Breaking ended."
11
free will: 2005-03-16
Isn't SG a mountain? Doesn't Rand have to put his blood on it? So if Rand angered the Ogier and they threw SG at him could that take care of both sayings?
I'm kinda lost as to what exactly your theory predicts for the novels. I could imagine Ogier throwinga mountain with all their strength, numbers, and stone skills but I on the other hand I didn't Rand was going to anger them. But it might combine with other "faking Rand's death" theories, as long as he leaves some real blood.
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Rune420: 2005-03-20
Free will: I was theorizing that the ogier will decide to fight in the last battle.
13
Jammer: 2005-03-20
Ther seem to be a lot of responses about 'the Longing'. Although this is very obviously a reason why the ogier and humans aren't mingling like they used to, you can't see it a a serious reason for them not to do battle anywhere.
We know for a fact Loial has been out of a stedding for at least a couple of years (I remember hem mentioning having lift the stedding 3 years or more even before he met Rand), and there has been mention of ogier being out of a stedding for over 10 years before the Longing started. These are timespans which are significant when living your life outside a stedding, not so when you go out and battle some shadowspawn and returning. Taking in account the dimensions of the landmass between the Aryth ocean and the Spine of the World (which seems to be well under 4000 km east-west and 3000 km north-south) 10 years would certainly be enough for them to walk anywhere, do battle for 5 years and then return.
On top of that there is the very clear participation of ogier in the Trolloc Wars. We know for a fact ogier tried to make it to Aemon's Field to help Manetheren.
I can't see how they turned in an argument in any case, all the events up till now have been human politics and human nations fighting. Ogier would want to stay away from that.
I don't doubt the ogier will fight alongside humans to save the world. They did so before and have ample reason to do so again.
14
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-03-21
I agree with jammer, the ogier will fight. They did in the Trolloc wars. The longing will not even be a factor, since many channelers know how to Travel now. They could allow the Ogier to return to the stedding whenever it was needed.
15
Ozymandias: 2005-03-22
Someone said that the Forsaken (or some other evil force) will provoke the Ogier into violence. I have to disagree. The Forsaken are anything but stupid, and they want to hedge their bets in the Last Battle by keeping as many forces away from Rand as possible. The Ogier are wise; I think that they will come to the decision on their own. And their contribution does not have to be military; beyond even helping to use the Ways, its possible that they act as army surgeons or something of that nature. I personally believe they will fight, and will be all but eliminated, but thats just my 2 cents
16
Topaz Ashaman: 2005-03-23
To Ozymandias:
That was I that said it would take a Forsaken to provoke the Ogier to battle, and I will agree with you that the Forsaken are not stupid. However as we see time and time again, they are all arrogant and tend to dismiss those they consider "Lesser". I can easily foresee one of the Forsaken attempting to dispatch the pitiful Ogier that are in the way of some cache of angreal and “bringing the mountain down” as it were. It might not necessarily be an open act of war from the Dark that pulls the Ogier in, but I think that is the device Jordan will end up using. The reason I think it will come to this is the fact that the Great Stump that has been called generally takes years and years to complete, IIRC. And the way the books have been going I don't know that the folk of Randland have that much time. So I figure the Ogier will get a little push getting into things.
17
Merari: 2005-03-28
I may be wrong, but didn't a lot of the emphasis on the anger of the Ogier occur before we found out about the Senechan gardeners. I don't have the quotes in front of me but I remember where Rand was thinking about the old saying and thought about a time when the Ogier were different and the saying was really had a literal meaning. Perhaps Jordan was trying to hint or make us think about what the Ogier would be like if they never had to deal with the longing. (Aka the gardeners)
18
zelyoni: 2005-04-08
While I'm sure that some Ogier will indeed deal some damage, I noticed that nobody has mentioned what I think will be there most important role.
Once the song is found, who will sing the song?
Rand, for one, but also, the Tuatha'an and the Ogier...
They alluded to it in a backflash in one of the books.
19
lurk: 2005-04-13
"I agree with jammer, the ogier will fight. They did in the Trolloc wars. The longing will not even be a factor, since many channelers know how to Travel now. They could allow the Ogier to return to the stedding whenever it was needed."
In the trolloc wars there were no channelers who knew how to travel. Still the ogier fougth. ;)
I also believe the ogier will fight, but it will be because of a great injustice, maybe some ogier or tinkers will be tortured, or a city will be murdered. Loial becam furious in the two rivers because of the injustice of trollocs triying to murder everyone in the two rivers. Also in the stone of tear when faile was trapped by the black ajah, the wooden turtle, he became furious. Such injustice to a nice girl like faile (that was before she manipulated him in going throuh the ways, oops not so nice after all )
Bottom line: injusitce infuriates the ogier (assuming of course Loial's reaction is typical for an ogier)
20
Stilicho: 2005-04-13
The Ogier will fight. The obvious ( and correct) parallel is to the awakening of the Ents in the LOTR trilogy. After long and careful debate, the Ogier will go to war. Not in response to any particular incident, but because fighting against evil and the Do is the right thing to do. Ha-Hoooom!
21
haertchen: 2005-04-13
Good grief, why would it take an injustice to get the Ogier to fight in the last battle? Please folks, the Ogier know more and have longer memories than most humans have, and even if it takes them longer to get to a decision, when they come to it, they'll stick to it. And they'll come to it for the right reasons, because it's important. They've fought the shadow before; why would they be any less deliberate now?
22
MatCauthon: 2005-05-03
IIRC, the role of Ogier as soldiers goes back to the Age of Legends. Didn't Rand see Ogiers both singing the seed song and as soldiers through the eyes of one of his ancenstors? Don't have the book in front of me so I may be wrong, but I believe he did.
I think they'll play two roles. Some will help fight as soldiers in Last Battle. I think the tinkers will find their song and some Ogier will join them in helping to sing it.
