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livia, Logain, and Rand

by Jahar Narishma: 2005-07-23 | 6.2 out of 10 (10 votes)

Previous Categories: The Last Battle

The roles that these three will play in the Last Battle has been debated ad nauseam, but I have a different theory that I do not believe has been posted yet, although please forgive me if it has and I have missed it.

As has already been stated many, many times, Min has foretold that Alivia will kill Rand, or at the very least will be directly involved in his death. We also know that Min has foreseen greatness for Logain, with a halo around his head. This greatness is presumptively greatness for the Light (as opposed to, say, being named Nae'blis or some other greatness for the Dark). These are generally accepted to the extent that quotations should not be necessary.

Now, while re-reading the series in anticipation of the next book, I was reading through LOC, when I found something interesting: When Egwene and Siuan are finalizing their plan to allow Logain to escape, Siuan asks if Egwene is sure that freeing him is the best idea. Egwene responds with:

"They will gentle him, Siuan...That or someone really will do what Delana has been hinting at. I won't allow murder!"(LOC p.917)

Now, as we already know, Delana is not only a darkfriend, but is operating under direct orders from Aran'gar, who is operating under orders from Shaidar Haran. If Delana wants Logain dead...not just gentled, not just imprisoned, but dead, then it stands to reasons that Shaidar Haran, and by extension, the DO himself, is very concerned about Logain. This implies that Logain is a far more important for the Light than any of the other characters seem to believe. One could even draw an inference that if Logain is to be killed, perhaps his presence at the Last Battle is a deciding factor, implying that the "greatness" Min saw is considerable. Ok, enough with the background, on to the theory:

Many have theorized a last battle where somehow Alivia kills Rand, and then someone balefires her, etc, or somehow Rand is trapped in the Bore through this series of events, and then Logain seals it. I disagree, I find this too complicated.

We know from various prophecies that one consistency is that Rand's blood must be shed on the slopes of Shayol Ghul. In fact, this may or may not guarantee victory, but must happen regardless. Now, we know that the Shadow has been trying to turn Rand since the beginning, most notably Ishamael/Ba'alzamon, even going so far as to keep him alive to reach the battle and fulfill the prophecy in one form or another.

If the Shadow's plan all along has been to get Rand to TG and turn him, then suppose that it actually happens. 13 channelers and 13 myrddraal, or maybe just Rand's own schizophrenia could cause this.

So we get to Tarmon Gaidon, and there's some sort of plan set up, and then Rand gets turned at the last minute, possibly during the battle itself, possibly beforehand. Alivia kills him, either out of necessity after he has turned, or maybe even at his request if he finds himself surrounded by the aformentioned 26 (as in Egwene's accepted test). This would fulfill both Min's viewing, and the prophecy that his blood must be spilled on the slopes of Shayol Ghul. In fact, it even makes sense that his blood MUST be shed for the Light to prevail.

With Rand dead, they still need a male channeler to operate the Choedan Kal ter'angreal with Nynaeve or Alivia...in fact, I could foresee a large part of Tarmon Gaidon being a battle between Alivia and Rand using these ter'angreal, culminating in his death. So Alivia kills Rand, but they need another guy to step in if they are to re-seal the Bore. Logain is the obvious choice to step in. So Logain and Alivia re-seal the Bore, but since it is Logain instead of Rand, the Seal will necessarily be imperfect, leading the DO to break free at the end of the next age, with another Last Battle...etc etc.

Despite the length of this post, I find this theory to be useful for its simplicity. It fulfills all the major prophecies and foretellings, and helps explain the actions of various Dark factions. Trying to kill Logain makes sense in this light, as does Ishamael/Ba'alzamon/Moridin's objective of keeping Rand alive to reach the last battle.

I think that this theory explains the most with the fewest loose strings, but please critique as necessary. I'm usually pretty good with real-life geopolitics, but obviously fantasy-book poli-sci is a bit different than the stuff I had in undergrad.

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2005-08-26

Jahar, I like your idea for the last battle. It would be a nice twist for Rand to be turned, and then killed by Alivia, who seems to toe the "duty" line. I wonder though, do you believe Rand will die permanently? I like Logain stepping in, but how would the DO be aware of Logain's importance? What is it about Logain that the DO fears? Well reasoned and I agree, I have given up on Jordan creating plots that are too complex. I tend to believe Rand will somehow be alive in the end but it could be his dead body in the boat.

William Seeker: 2005-08-26

If they wanted Rand turned, why haven't they done it, or at least tried? From all of the evidence there hasn't even been an atempt. I think they want him to turn to the Shadow of his own free will (like Lanfear).

therobotbadger: 2005-08-26

**"They will gentle him, Siuan...That or someone really will do what Delana has been hinting at. I won't allow murder!"(LOC p.917)

Now, as we already know, Delana is not only a darkfriend, but is operating under direct orders from Aran'gar, who is operating under orders from Shaidar Haran. If Delana wants Logain dead...not just gentled, not just imprisoned, but dead, then [b]it stands to reasons that Shaidar Haran, and by extension, the DO himself, is very concerned about Logain[/b]. **

You didn't develop one step in your interpretation of this quote. You say that Delana takes her orders from Halima/Aran'gar/Balthamel --> Shaidar Haran --> the DO, but later you say that Delana's actions imply Shaidar Haran and the DO must want that action carried out. You missed the fact that perhaps Halima was acting on her own and for her own best interests. I always thought that Halima wants Logain dead because he is the one person who could possibly sense her channeling saidin. The longer Logain is around the greater the chance Halima gets exposed, so she needs him gone and gone fast. Shaidar Haran and the DO don't need to take any special interest in this one particular male channeler for Halima to decide to off him, as many of the Forsaken act independently of direct orders quite often.

One solution that would remove him as a threat to Halima is to gentle him, which would require an action of the Hall. After all, if Halima does it herself or has someone else do it, there would be an investigation and hairy questions raised, something that should be avoided at all costs by one keeping a low profile. However, the decision to gentle him would need a lot of discussion in the Hall and possibly a trial as well, so would be bogged down by politics and all the hoopla of the Hall, and would thus take too long. Remeber, there's a chance that Logain could sense saidin at any time, and the longer he's there the greater that chance grows.

Halima has Delana hint at an easy solution that wouldn't take a trial: just go kill him. It would have to be something outside of normal avenues of authority, something underhanded and probably illegal, for Egwene to use the word "murder". Killing Logain would be the quickest and most effective means to remove him as a threat (as perhaps he's already identified Halima as a saidin channeler and has been keeping his mouth shut for whatever reason), and filtering the idea through the Hall and the Amyrlin keeps Halima's hands clean. And, to the Hall, murder would probably be a preferable option to an execution. An execution, as contrasted with a murder, is public. This would raise the question with the non-Aes Sedai world of why the Hall executed Logain, which could undermine confidence in their chages against the Red Ajah. A murder could be explained away without hurting the cause.

Of course, fortuitously for Halima or not, Egwene chose another path. Hopefully for us, the readers, that path leads to good story.

So, while I don't disagree with your ideas on Logain's future role (not that I agree either...), I don't agree with your use of this quote to justify his importance.

Callandor: 2005-08-27

**If Delana wants Logain dead...not just gentled, not just imprisoned, but dead, then it stands to reasons that Shaidar Haran, and by extension, the DO himself, is very concerned about Logain.**

You're adding a lot into a very simple thing.

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 37 - When Battle Begins

"Everyone must take some risks." The firmness of the woman's voice belied the smile on that lush mouth. "And you will continue to press for gentling Logain again. That, or killing him." A slight grimace actually made the woman more beautiful somehow. "If they ever brought him out of that house, I would do it myself."

...

Halima's green eyes blazed as she leaped to her feet. "I am not afraid, and don't you ever suggest it! I want Logain servered or dead, and that is all you have to know. Do we understand one another?"**

Delana wanted Logain dead or gentled for the same reason that Aran'gar did (of course since she's Aran'gar's pawn): so that Aran'gar could control Egwene. With Logain able to channel, hence sense saidin usage, Aran'gar must hide and is ineffective. With him either:

1. Gentled

2. Killed or

3. Simply out of the camp

Aran'gar can get back to doing what she was truely sent to Salidar to do: control the rebel Hall.

**So Logain and Alivia re-seal the Bore, but since it is Logain instead of Rand, the Seal will necessarily be imperfect, leading the DO to break free at the end of the next age, with another Last Battle...etc etc.**

Problem with this is that it's those same Prophecies that state that the Dragon Reborn will face the Shadow -- not anyone else.

terez: 2005-08-27

More likely reason for Delana (Halima) wanting Logain dead: he was the only one who could expose Halima's ability to channel saidin. Same reason why Delana so strongly opposed partnership with the Black Tower.

Traveller: 2005-08-27

I absolutely agree with therobotbadger in that the idea to kill Logain could have beeen produced at any point in the ladder. It seems too much to rely on that just coz Delana wants Logain dead, that the DO does. All darkfriends are part of a chain leading to the DO, but we know that they decide their own actions, otherwise the DO would surely have what he wants already. Also we know of the rivalry between Forsaken, and the way they all have their own plans.

I do like the theory, but it is still only one possible plan of one of the Forsaken, if even that.

Jumai: 2005-08-28

I've been toying with the idea that Logain will somehow be remembered as the Dragon somewhat down the road from TG. A lot of subtle elements of the story hint at that. After all, he's generally believed to play a key role in TG, survive Rand, and become an important figure post-TG while Rand will be dead or obscure, and he did call himself Dragon once. Combined with the way news spreads in WoT (ie ridden with technical inaccuracies) I can see it happening easily.

And IIRC the quote about Alivia is actually "help him die" which could mean a lot of things. It can easily mean she gives Rand the strength for his last and final effort.

mako0424: 2005-08-28

I like most of this theory, except for the part concerning Logain's importance to the Dark One, i agree, i think it was merely halima wanting him gone so she could use saidin safely, but as to Rand turning, i think this will happen, and not because 13 channelers and myrddraal, but on his own accord, something along the lines of his three loves die or are severly threatened and he pledges himself to the Dark One, to bring them back or save them, and this would also go along with Cadsuane's need to teach him laughter and tears, instead of being a logical this and that, he follows his heart. you know, "he would do anything for love" (Meatloaf-style)

but anywho, i think this is why Alivia will help him die, so that he can't help the Dark One, or something along those lines, and it will free Rand of his Dark side temptations to overcome and defeat the Dark One for good, no partly sealed Bore crap, its going to be shut for good somehow.

many theories as to how that will happen, but i think it will involve tons of channelers, and huge, equally male-female circles, opposed to two uber-channelers.

But Logain's glory will probably stem from defeating or revealing Taim and leading the Asha'man into a partnership with the White Tower, which will help directly in sealing the Bore, but Rand will be a deciding factor against beating Sahidar Haran, Moridin, and the Dark One, and don't forget, there are tons of theories as to whether Nynaeve or maybe some other strong Healers, ie. Damer FLyn, or Sumeko will help Nynaeve bring him back from the dead. This i think takes more of your theory into consideration, give us a juicy plot for the Last Battle, and fulfil all of the known prophecies.

Ultrashifty: 2005-08-28

Im pretty sure Min said that Alivia would help Rand die, not kill Rand, so couldnt that simply mean she would be at the last battle for the light, since rand is fated to die there if the light prevails, so that would be helping him die?

drz1649: 2005-08-28

The female Choedan Kal key was lost at the end of Winter's Heart. So how could Alivia fight a "turned" Rand using the male access key, when she cannot use the female counterpart?

Trying to kill Logain makes sense for the Forsaken simply because he is a threat to them (Halima in particular). It doesn't need to be a direct order from the DO itself.

I think Logain's glory might in part stem from his rescuing Rand from his impending capture via the Sad Bracelets and the Seanchan. He also may be the one to expose or kill Taim when whatever he's up to is revealed. It seems natural for the two surviving False Dragons to duke it out at some point.

nsondej: 2005-08-28

i agree that this certainly has its merits, but there is one problem. the aiel prophecies (dont remember their name right now sorry) say that he will have two herons to name him etc. and that he will live twice. unless we are all wrong (very probable) about the living twice having to do with the last battle, this theory does not explain how rand will live twice. other than that, i like some of theideas u brought up.

JakOShadows: 2005-08-28

Your plan is a good idea, but I don't think Delana wanting Logain killed proves his importance. And in my mind Rand has to be the one fighting the DO/Ishmael. Where Logain's glory comes in would probably be him being the head of the black tower and becoming Tamyrlin after Rand dies. And Alivia helping Rand die, it could be that after the LB she kills him so he will lessen the effect he'll have on the breaking of the world or something along those lines. I don't think it would be during the battle. And also, why would you try and turn him to the DO when there will probably be a big battle going on there. In my mind, it would make it a complex plan to pull off. But I do like how you stress the simplicity of the strategy. Like everyone says in the books, a simple strategy is the one that works the best most of the time.

mako0424: 2005-08-29

to drz1649

i am pretty sure that the female Choedan Khal is fixable or replaceable, dont forget we see another female ter'angreal for the Choedan Khal in the Panarch's palace, which means that there first of all may be more, or second of all, they saved one half from the time Nynaeve melted it, and we all know brilliant Elayne could prolly fix it.

I can say with certainty that some female channeler will be using the female Chodean Khal, who may be a different theory all together though.

IshaSamMoridin: 2005-08-29

One problem that has not, so far, been pointed out is this: the female access key is gone. It was melted during the Cleansing.

Anubis: 2005-08-29

and something happened to the statue on tremalking, the time of illusions ended. maybe it glowed, and maybe it died. who knows.

JakOShadows: 2005-08-29

I do vaguely remember there being a second ter'angreal link to the CK, but I don't think anything happened to the big one. In my mind, the sa'angreal were meant to handle more stress as far as the flow of power through it. And I think it would also mess up the balance that RJ loves to create.

hale: 2005-08-30

I like the theory, but it doesn't mention Egwyene's vision of Rand being dead and his face crumbling like a mask.

UberAshaman: 2005-08-31

**So Logain and Alivia re-seal the Bore, but since it is Logain instead of Rand, the Seal will necessarily be imperfect, leading the DO to break free at the end of the next age, with another Last Battle...etc etc.**

About that. I remember sometime in LoC when Rand was talking to Herid Fel about sealing the Bore, Fel went on about hoew the Dragon Reborn must completely fix the Bore so in the next cycle of Ages, Lanfear/Mierin or counterpart whatever, can drill the prison again, releasing the Dark One again etc. so-on so-on.

Ashaman Samuel: 2005-09-01

One thing to everyone. About turning Rand the main reason it hasn't been tried is it is a huge logistical problem. How many times have we seen a large group of channelers in the company of a large group of Myrdraal? Never because its hard to round up a circle of thirteen and thirteen Myrdraal, and then to capture Rand because trying to bring the circle to Rand is not exactly an easy thing to do. Too conspicuous. Now Rand has been captured before. The box in LoC. Maybe this was an attempt to bring Rand to a circle. But according to this theory it was fated never to happen before the Last Battle. So it explains why it would have to take place at Shayol Ghul, logistically it is easiest for the Shadow to do it at homebase isn't it? And why bother forcing Rand there when he will eventually turn up on his own? It has been seen many times that the DO HATES wasting resources.

Shaitan: 2005-09-01

I like this theory, it all pretty much makes sense. The only problem I have, is a personal problem. I want to see Rand kick some A$$ in the last battle! Not get turned and killed. Hes the dragon!! Hes the savior of the world! Not logain.

JakOShadows: 2005-09-02

I just had a thought. If the DO's main goal is to turn Rand, then it would make sense him only corrupting his infrastructure and not actually take him down and kill him. But we have seen a lot of attempts on his life, most recently from the asha'man so I don't know how hard they're trying at keeping him alive. It could be they know its his destiny to reach the LB and it would take a miracle to kill him, it just doesn't seem like the DO to leave it up to that.

CaeZar: 2005-09-02

As i re-read through the series, in TGH i seem to come across several times where it says that the dragon will destroy but then goes on to mention that he will help bring in, as in he has to be there to be able to bring in a new age, i apolagize i can't remember the exact words but while reading this post i came across the quote twice, so it stuck in my brain. (within the first 100-200 pgs) Maybe Alivia will help him die in the sense that a seperation of Rand and Lewis Therin. I beleive thats the only way to seperate the two, which seems lately seems to be getting dangerously fighting for control over the "body". Maybe through a small spark of Rand's life force or something Nynaeve is able to bring him back. Im not sure, im brand new to here and hope im not repeating any posts.

brother of Battles: 2005-09-02

nsondej-

"i agree that this certainly has its merits, but there is one problem. the aiel prophecies (dont remember their name right now sorry) say that he will have two herons to name him etc. and that he will live twice. unless we are all wrong (very probable) about the living twice having to do with the last battle, this theory does not explain how rand will live twice. other than that, i like some of theideas u brought up."

The prophacy stated:

Once the Heron to set his path

Twice the Heron to name him true

Once the Dragon for remembrance lost

Twice the dragon for the price he must pay.

Twice to live and Twice to die

This Theory is referring to Living as LTT and dieing as LTT, then living as Rand Al'Thor and dieing as Rand Al'Thor. It doesn't mean that Rand will die then be brought back to life. How meny times does it have to be stated that death can not be healed? Once someone dies, they're dead. I don't care if you have the largest combined male/female circle. It ain't happening.

dchambers59: 2005-09-02

I like the idea that Nynaeve may bring him back from the dead. There was some grumbling that Nynaeve wouldn't be happy until she brought someone back three days in the grave (please forgive my vagueness; I'm 300 miles from my books). So maybe Nynaeve becomes “happy”? That may well *be* the only way to free Rand from having Lews Therin in his head.

The one other thing that I question about the original theory, though some of the ideas are particularly intruiging, is that the seal that Alivia and Logain might create is imperfect, allowing the Dark One to break free again. Unfortunately, this doesn't jive with the idea of the wheel. Lanfear (as Mierin) created the Bore from a perfect, if thin, point in the Dark One's prison. For this to be the case, the Bore must be not just sealed, but unmade.

RHSwrestler: 2005-09-04

If I remember correctly, Min only sees that Alivia will "help Ran die", that could mean alot of things.

And the Prophecy that says that the Dragon's blood will be spilled on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, could mean alot of things. It might even mean the Galad will die.

Both those fortellings are just too vague to be used as evidence.

mako0424: 2005-09-04

Yeah, Rand is going to bring in a new Age, but he could do this multiple ways, ie. sealing the Bore, or his death within itself could bring a New Age. I don't think Rand's being alive is technically necessary to usher in the New Age, but im also of the belief that Rand lives after TG, but maybe the entire world thinks he dies, and he stays around as a father/husband figure...a fate worse than death, haha.

Franco13: 2005-09-05

Rand dying a second may not be 'death' as we interprete it but isn't being stilled like death to someone who has the power? If Rand was stilled then brought back...could this be considered the second death?

Callandor: 2005-09-07

**Both those fortellings are just too vague to be used as evidence.**

But the "twice to live and twice to die" isn't that vague... Neither is the "to live you must die."

**I don't think Rand's being alive is technically necessary to usher in the New Age, but im also of the belief that Rand lives after TG, but maybe the entire world thinks he dies, and he stays around as a father/husband figure...a fate worse than death, haha.**

But Rand does not "usher" in a new Age. That's what Calian and Shivan do.

**Rand dying a second may not be 'death' as we interprete it but isn't being stilled like death to someone who has the power? If Rand was stilled then brought back...could this be considered the second death?**

Death is very simple: you die. Sorry, but stilling isn't death, neither is being "hung" like Mat.

Eek: 2005-09-08

"So Logain and Alivia re-seal the Bore, but since it is Logain instead of Rand, the Seal will necessarily be imperfect, leading the DO to break free at the end of the next age, with another Last Battle...etc etc."

This is wrong, you see, cause in the AoL there was no Bore to speak of, it was a perfect seal upon the Dark Ones prison and it's said in the books that the reason that the Bore still exists is that man (in this case Lews Therin) cannot create a seal as strong as the Creator could. So if the wheel keep on turning as it should if the Light side are victorious, then the seal should be perfect again and so must the Creator himself step down in the TG and seal the Bore completely. Either this or somehow Rand should be the Creator Incarnate, also an interesting possibility, and then he could seal the prison.

hagglund: 2005-09-09

Jahar Narishma: 2005-09-09

Ok, with regards to the re-sealed bore being "perfect" when the wheel re-turns:

We know that the wheel has 7 ages, or at the very least that it has far more than just the AOL and the current 3rd Age. All that Herid Fel said was that when the AOL rolls around again, the seal must be in the same condition, presumably perfect, that it was when Lanfear found it. Nowhere does he say that it must be perfect at the end of this particular age, any more than it had to be perfect at the end of the AOL. It is entirely possible, under Fel's hypothesis, for the Bore to be sealed imperfectly at the end of this age, so long as it is re-sealed perfectly before the Age of Legends rolls around again, which presumably is several age-turns away.

I accept much of the criticism of this theory, but this particular issue is not a weak point, I specifically included it -because- of Fel's hypothesis.

There is nothing to prove that Rand must re-seal the Bore perfectly, or that he must completely defeat the Dark One. Everything that we have seen so far implies that this "Last Battle" is neither the first nor the last of its kind. The only way for this to change, and RJ has subtly hinted at this in his discussions of Eastern circular history vs. Western linear history, would be for Rand to completely destroy the Pattern and the Wheel itself. He would have to completely reshape the entire Universe from a Light/Dark dichotomy and repeating ages into a linear, progressive timeline...in other words, destroying the Wheel of Time itself.

But I'm sticking with Fel's hypothesis. Rand, or someone else, must re-seal the Bore. It does not necessarily have to be completely re-sealed, and it is entirely possible that the sealing itself may cause changes, whether good or bad, that would usher in the new age.

JakOShadows: 2005-09-09

Eek: like the idea behing a whole lot. But I don't think that the creator will come down and perform some miracle. In my mind, I always saw it as the seal right now prevent the pattern from healling. And for it to seal properly, it would have to be sealed so as to allow the pattern heal itself and not be hindered. As to how, I do not know.

silverwolf: 2005-09-11

Several points. First, "I WILL NOT TAKE PART." This quote, from the end of TEotW, pretty well kills the divine intervention theory. Secondly, I agree with those who think Aran'gar herself wanted Logain killed or severed so she could channel freely, not due to the DO's orders.

Thirdly, although the bore need not be perfectly sealed by the end of this age, it would be a bit of a letdown to have that big of a story not included--I know Jordan intends to leave some loose ends, but I don't think that's one of them.

Fourth, there are multiple access keys to the Choedan Kal (we saw an additional broken female key in TSR in Tanchico--it hurt Egwene when she touched it in TAR), although the location of any intact female key is unknown. On a related note, the melted key was left at the Shadar Logoth crater, so it is unlikely that Elayne will "fix it" (although she might be able to create an entirely new key); also, nothing we have seen indicates that either of the Choedan Kal was damaged (although Moghedian wondered how they had survived, obviously they had not broken down by the time Rand finished cleansing saidin and no further POV even gives us reason to doubt that they survived).

Fourth, I always thought that Logain's forseen glory would involve a struggle in the Black Tower--he is obviously opposed to Taim and apparently loyal to Rand, so it would make sense for him to battle Taim ("The Black Tower shall be rent in fire and blood, and sisters shall walk it's grounds."--the sisters Logain's faction has bonded, perhaps?)

The idea of Rand being turned to the Dark side during the last battle is interesting, especially given that Alivia will "help him die," but there isn't enough evidence to convince me yet.

As to the pattern healing itself once the DO is sealed off in a better way, I like the idea. RJ has made a point of various things as "living" beings--the Ways, Mashadar, etc.--and when Moridin travels with the TP, "the world screamed in his ears," perhaps just literary personifcation, but maybe a hint of what was to come. This might be accomplished by the method proposed in the Age of Legends--the one which called for the creation of the Choedan Kal: to use the immense sa'angreal to seal of the area directly around the bore for a time in order to learn how to seal it perfectly. According to the "living pattern" theory, though, the pattern would heal itself over time once sealed off. This is consistent with Herid Fel's vague note about "have to clear rubble before you can build." (I'm not sure what Fel was referring to by "Belief and order give strength"--probably the seals on the DO's prison, explaining why the seals have weakened as the world has descended into chaos, but that does not pertain to this theory.)It doesn't seem to have much evidence for or against it, though, unless I have overlooked something (a strong possibility). Anyway, that's all I have.

JamieK: 2005-09-12

several points on this theory: alivia is fated to "help Rand die" - this was mentioned shortly before rand thinks back to "those that he must believe" - ie, the Aelfinn he visited in Tear, who said "to live you must die". so i dont think alivia will actually kill him, but help him die, therefore live.

the theories on the 3rd voice in rands head have some interesting idea's about alivia. maybe she helps Lews Therin die, thus allowing rand to live in peace.

Logain: Egwene had a dream of him stepping over Rands body ("who appeared to be dead") onto a black pedestal. this surely indicated him leading the asha'man, not sure what the rand bit means though. we know he's destined for glory and its been implied that he's the "one that follows after" in the prophecies. so chances are, after TG, he'll be a big cheese and let rand (if he's still alive) settle down with his hoarde of kids.

Fel: fel left a note to rand saying that in order to re-seal the DO, he must "clean away the rubble". - does this mean the seals on the dark one first have to be broken?

Yaga Shura: 2005-09-12

JamieK:

"Logain: ... its been implied that he's the "one that follows after" in the prophecies."

This bit of the prophecies is what you're referring to:

TSR,Ch21

"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

I don't see how that refers to Logain. It's almost certainly about Jahar Narishma, the asha'man whom Rand sent to fetch Callandor (i.e. that fearful blade) from the Stone

"Fel: fel left a note to rand saying that in order to re-seal the DO, he must "clean away the rubble". - does this mean the seals on the dark one first have to be broken?"

Probably, yes.

JakOShadows: 2005-09-12

A lot of ya'll are implying that Rand dying or faking his death are applying it to the last battle, but I always interpreted as a way to draw out a fight between Taim and Logain. Because Taim is a smart guy, so if he knows Rand is alive, he knows he can't kill Logain and get away with it. And he probably doesn't trust his lackeys to kill Logain. So if Rand dies, then it would allow Taim to feel safe. Then once Logain gains control or Taim has revealed himself, then will Rand come back to life. That's how I see his death coming into play.

Dreamwolf: 2005-09-13

I don't think Rand will be turned to the shadow; at least not voluntarily. His hatred of the DO is far too strong... far too strong. Remember, in the alternate worlds, Rand goes to fight the trollocs who have come to destroy the Two Rivers. When he sees the banner of the DO, he can't stop shooting at it. "This is the reason he was alive, to fight that banner," (TGH, Chapter 37: What Might Be). Notice it isn't so much the trollocs he was alive to destroy, but the shadow. He was born to fight the DO and he was given the near manic hatred of the shadow to fight him with.

For more scenes of Rand furiously refusing the shadow, read chapter 16 in LoC, or almost any chapter with Rand talking with Ba'alzamon.

At any rate, I stray far-a-field. We're talking about Logain and Alivia and the last battle. Remember, Min says, "She'll HELP YOU DIE," not, "She'll kill/murder/destroy/necessarily eliminate you." Using the word "help" makes the big difference. If Rand is already turned to the shadow, Rand wouldn't have the cognizance to tell her to kill him. She would, in effect, have to murder him. In Egwene's accepted test, Rand isn't being turned to the shadow, he's fighting off madness. He can keep the madness at bay long enough for her to kill him, but she must do so before he goes insane and destroys everything. Being turned is something completely different:

"Question:

When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

Robert Jordan Answers:

They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so."

Rand wouldn't want to be saved/killed to avert his evil, thus you get rid of the "helping" element.

I think Rand is planning something that involves him needing to die, or needing Alivia to do something that'll make him seem dead. She will aide him in some way, thus she will "help" Rand die. Logain, being the only faithful powerful Ash'aman, will proceed Taim as leader of the BT. He'll be the mistress of novices, while Narishma will follow after Rand as being the Amyrlin. :) Flin can be the Keeper of the Chronicals.

Yugasawi: 2005-09-13

"So Logain and Alivia re-seal the Bore, but since it is Logain instead of Rand, the Seal will necessarily be imperfect, leading the DO to break free at the end of the next age, with another Last Battle...etc etc."

Actually, I think it's time for the bore to be resealed completely, like before it was bored into during the Age of Legends. Harid Fel (I think that's his name, don't have the books on me atm) discussed this briefly with Rand, implying that Rand would be the one to completely reseal it, allowing the world to prosper until the prison was broken into again. It could be possible that Logain would be the one to help completely reseal it.

I do agree that it's a possibility Rand could turn at the end though. We'll just have to wait, I guess.

Dreamwolf: 2005-09-14

Yes. I think it very likely Rand will be the one to reseal the DO's prison perfectly. Remember, there doesn't need to be a last battle at the end of every age. Calian the Chooser and Shivan the Hunter are the ones who have to be born to usher in a new age.

Each cycle of the wheel is seven ages. Rand is at the end of the third age and LTT was at the end of the second. So, you have over three thousand years of the Dark One, and several more ages for everyone to forget he exists. Then you're back to the age of legends again, and someone discovers his prison. He's freed, sealed imperfectly, and is free three thousand years after, and is resealed again, but perfectly once again. Over and over the wheel spinns.

Brendan Reborn: 2005-09-14

Hi guys, good to be back after about a year...Anyways on with the reply:

The theory I think is good and all and I'm not sure if this is posted but if Rand is turned and killed, the DO will have access to his soul to just bring him back. We all know that the DO can bring his minions back from the dead, so if Rand was turned and killed it wouldn't really matter because the DO can just plug him tight back in.

Eek: 2005-09-15

"I think Rand is planning something that involves him needing to die, or needing Alivia to do something that'll make him seem dead. She will aide him in some way, thus she will "help" Rand die."

Remember Egwenes first trial in the tower? When Egwene sees Rand trapped in Caemlyn beneath a fallen roof or something like that? There are some truth in the things that happens on the far side on that ter'angreal. Egwene is trapped by Elaida in the tower, isn't she? Now switch Egwene for Alivia, in the LB Rand will be trapped. Unable to move or use the force. And he will ask Alivia to kill him so the DO cannot get to him. This does not explain how he's brought back to life or who will seal the Bore. But I believe that no other than Rand will seal the Bore.

Callandor: 2005-09-15

**So if the wheel keep on turning as it should if the Light side are victorious, then the seal should be perfect again and so must the Creator himself step down in the TG and seal the Bore completely. Either this or somehow Rand should be the Creator Incarnate, also an interesting possibility, and then he could seal the prison.**

No. The Creator does not intervene -- ever. Period. Final. No intervention, no action by the Creator.

Fel already left an out for this: the sealing of the Dark One's prison at the moment of creation was intentionally faulty. That all the sealings have been humanities doing, not the Creator's. That all the "perfect" patches, weren't good enough. After all, if it was perfect, humanity would've never opened it again -- yet they did.

**The only way for this to change, and RJ has subtly hinted at this in his discussions of Eastern circular history vs. Western linear history, would be for Rand to completely destroy the Pattern and the Wheel itself. He would have to completely reshape the entire Universe from a Light/Dark dichotomy and repeating ages into a linear, progressive timeline...in other words, destroying the Wheel of Time itself.**

Which is explicitedly stated in the BWB to be impossible by anyone inside and of the Pattern -- as well it shatters Jordan's theme completely, which would be nearly literary suicide.

**Secondly, I agree with those who think Aran'gar herself wanted Logain killed or severed so she could channel freely, not due to the DO's orders.**

Well, it kinda is due to the Dark One's order -- just not a Dark order to kill Logain. Aran'gar was of course sent to Salidar for the single reason of guiding the Hall (and soon then Egwene). Integral to this, was her channeling undetected. Hence, the need to remove Logain.

**Remember, there doesn't need to be a last battle at the end of every age.**

From the two that we have seen, there does. Most likely, there is always a battle between the forces at/near the end of an Age.

Anubis: 2005-09-15

**Remember, there doesn't need to be a last battle at the end of every age.**

**From the two that we have seen, there does. Most likely, there is always a battle between the forces at/near the end of an Age.**

There doesnt need to be a battle. Look up age, im not going to do it for you. Basicly if the structure of the world changes significantly, a new age begins. It doesnt have to be a battle, but a battle is very likely.

Anubis: 2005-09-15

**Which is explicitedly stated in the BWB to be impossible by anyone inside and of the Pattern -- as well it shatters Jordan's theme completely, which would be nearly literary suicide. **

not to mention fourth age writings and interviews in which RJ has said the world will continue to turn

Traveller: 2005-09-15

I disagree with you Callandor:

I know it isn't practical, but I think there will be some holy intervention from the Creator, even if it is a voice in rand's head, or a sign in the sky, but I think that some miracle will occur brought by the creator, or perhaps Rand will see a bright light that he knows is the Creator etc etc, just something, you know?

therobotbadger: 2005-09-15

** **Remember, there doesn't need to be a last battle at the end of every age.**

From the two that we have seen, there does. Most likely, there is always a battle between the forces at/near the end of an Age.**

However, in the Age of Legends, no one even remembered the existence of the Dark One. I would think that some DO-caused cataclysm even thousands of years prior to the AoL we know would cause the people of that time to know about the DO, even if they believe he doesn't exist.

There is the possiblity that the DO caused events without anyone knowing who or what he was, but that has its own set of problems. If the DO is free enough to affect events in Age 1, but is completely and "perfectly" sealed in Age 2: Age of Legends (sounds like a sequel), then someone had to reseal his prison. As we have seen from Age 3, where those very events are taking place, the resealing of the DO's prison is an event on par with any of the most important in history. It is accompanied by prophecy left and right, and required the spinning out of possibly the most powerful ta'veren soul in existence plus his two not inconsiderable ta'veren friends. This process is nothing to sneeze at. If something of this sort happened in Age 1, I find it unlikely that the people of Age 2 would forget it.

No, it doesn't seem possible that Age 1 ended with a titanic Light-Dark conflict. It appears that the events of boring into the DO's prison and resealing it are specific to Ages 2 and 3 respectively. Perhaps something Light-Dark related happens in Ages 4-7, but it doesn't seem plausible that it can happen in Age 1.

Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-15

I just thought of something.

I don't have the books with me right now, so I cannot look up the exact quote, but I know that it is early in The Dragon Reborn.

Rand is describing how he travels with the Power. How he rips a hole through the Pattern. Later, Egwene or Elayne ask somebody what would happen if a woman tried to do that. The person was horrified and said something along the lines of, it might tear the Pattern apart.

Maybe I am just misremembering the information. It has been a while since I read it. But if this were true, then couldn't the Pattern possibly be broken by somebody inside of it.

Lauric: 2005-09-15

**The only way for this to change, and RJ has subtly hinted at this in his discussions of Eastern circular history vs. Western linear history, would be for Rand to completely destroy the Pattern and the Wheel itself. He would have to completely reshape the entire Universe from a Light/Dark dichotomy and repeating ages into a linear, progressive timeline...in other words, destroying the Wheel of Time itself. **

Just struck me as I read this..destroying the WoT is exactly what the DO is trying to do. Now, if Rand alternately came the conclusion (as is Rand's way of thinking) that by resealing the bore and leaving it at that, he will in essence be setting the future up to have to deal with the DO. On that note, if he decides that he has to destroy the wheel to prevent the DO's return in the future, then he is, in essence, doing the DO's work, but not working for the shadow. This would obviously be a long process, and maybe after Rand starts it he realizes what he's doing and tries to stop himself, but can't, therefore along comes Alivia to 'help him die'.

I know a lot of people disagree with this part, but I then believe Flinn and Nyn find Rand's body, join up and miraculously heal death, as has been hinted at numerous times through the books (i.e. Nynaeve won't be happy until she's healed someone three days dead). I mean, lets face it, it's not the first time someones done something previously thought to be impossible (Healing stilling anyone? And, oh, it just happens to be those two that did the impossible once...why not again!)

And i'm spent, thats my 2 cents.

Flinn Sedai: 2005-09-16

Eek,

** Remember Egwenes first trial in the tower? When Egwene sees Rand trapped in Caemlyn beneath a fallen roof or something like that? There are some truth in the things that happens on the far side on that ter'angreal. Egwene is trapped by Elaida in the tower, isn't she? Now switch Egwene for Alivia, in the LB Rand will be trapped. Unable to move or use the force. And he will ask Alivia to kill him so the DO cannot get to him. This does not explain how he's brought back to life or who will seal the Bore. But I believe that no other than Rand will seal the Bore. **

In that situation, the way that the DO was going to steal Rand's soul was through the ol' 13 & 13 combo. Killing him does not stop the DO from stealing his soul post-death though. RJ has already told us that they only way to stop the DO from stealing a soul is to BF it back in time to before the DO knew he had to reserve the soul.

Callandor: 2005-09-16

From the two Ages we have seen there seems to be a battle at the end of every Age. Does that mean that there must be a battle at the end of every Age? Maybe, maybe not. But from what we've seen, it does.

Jahar Narishma: 2005-09-17

At numerous times throughout the first several books, we have heard Ishamael tell Rand, and Lews Therin in the prologue to EOTW, that they have fought many times before. Now, obviously there is nothing to indicate that Ishamael has to tell the truth, but in his discussion with Lews Therin, he has no reason to lie. And yes, I understand that this does not mean that every age MUST end with a battle between good and evil, but it does seem to imply that there is such a trend.
Furthermore, as much as it might be an anticlimax if the series ends without the DO being completely and utterly defeated for all time, it would be an even greater anticlimax if the whole good/evil battle scheme is only there for the second and third age, and then over.

Anyways, with regards to the original theory, I would be very surprised if the Dark did not try to turn Rand at the Last Battle. There has been so much foreshadowing, between Egwene's Accepted test and the various efforts of Ishamael. Look especially at EOTW. Ishamael demonstrated numerous times that he could have killed Rand without any effort, but he kept trying to get into Rand's dreams and convert him. Various other Forsaken have tried to kill Rand, yes, but their efforts were usually a part of their own schemes to knock off competitors and become Nae'blis. Hell, if Taim is working for the Dark in some capacity, he's had numerous chances to kill Rand and hasn't.

Also, with regards to whether Alivia "helps Rand die," or "kills him," Min has said both. The relevent quote that I can find, and I've had to look this up in the encyclopedia, because my copy of WH is in another state right now, is:

"Rand, I like Alivia. But she is going to kill you."

"Helping me die isn't the same as killing me. Unless you've changed your mind about what you saw."

-Winter's Heart, CH25

So before we get into talking about "helping Rand die," let's remember that Min also referred to her killing Rand. It's not some interpretation by me or by others, it's [i]Min's[/i] interpretation. Sure, Min could be wrong, but let's not imply that the "killing" part is just a reader's interpretation.

One option, actually, might be that Nynaeve and Flinn, the two great healers, could use the Choedan Kal or some other method of channeling massive amounts of power to resurrect Rand after he is killed, but this is really tangential to the theory.

Look, we know that Alivia is going to help Rand die, and the fact that Min also refers to it as killing implies that this is more than just faking his death. Now, I suppose that Alivia could turn Dark and kill Rand, but it appears that everyone on all sides of this theory reject this as being a bit too literal and obvious, and Min's viewings, and prophecies in general in these books, are rarely literal and obvious.

On the other hand, the fact that she does mention helping Rand die implies that it is not necessarily out of malice. My first impression was that it might be some sort of mercy killing, which is what brought Egwene's test to mind.

Of course, it could be something far more figurative, along the lines of Alivia helping fulfill a prophecy that results in Rand's death, or help him get to Tarmon Gai'don, where he is fated to die, but there are a lot more people working together to get Rand to that battle, so why single out Alivia?

No. We know that Alivia will "kill" Rand, but also that this killing will be to "help him die." The former implies more than just faking death, while the latter implies a lack of malice. In light of Egwene's Accepted test, which has already been eerily semi-prescient vis-a-vis to her being raised Amyrlin despite not taking the oath rod, I think that we have a very plausible reason for Alivia to both kill Rand and help him die at the same time.

I will certainly stipulate that all this might happen before the Last Battle, but I think that this theory of Alivia killing Rand is the most plausible. The reason why I place it at the Last Battle is because it would also comply with the many other prophecies regarding his death at Shayol Ghul, which are more than just the one quote about "his blood on the rocks."

Of course, there is one final option: That history repeats itself, the Dragon leads an assault on Shayol Ghul, is victorious, seals the Bore etc etc etc, and some backlash by the DO once again causes the Dragon to break the world as is prophecied, and Alivia has to kill him, but I see this as having more loose ends than my original theory.

Anyways, presumably Alivia would kill Rand without using Balefire, so that we can have Min's boat prophecy.

Callandor: 2005-09-17

**I know it isn't practical, but I think there will be some holy intervention from the Creator, even if it is a voice in rand's head, or a sign in the sky, but I think that some miracle will occur brought by the creator, or perhaps Rand will see a bright light that he knows is the Creator etc etc, just something, you know?**

Sorry, but no. The Creator does not intervene. It's that simple. Humanity is on it's own. The Creator made the world and the system of how it runs; what humanity does and what it gets into is their choice.

**Another point he pressed was that "noone's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfer. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.**

And in case you do not believe this one, you can listen to Jordan say more or less this here:

http://www.dragonmount.com/Interviews/

2003-04-23.php

Interview #4.

The Creator doesn't intervene.

Anubis: 2005-09-17

Traveller, it is possible.

RJ gave a RAFO when asked what the voice was at the end of TEOTW. So if it is the creator, and we are actually going to find out, then there is a chance the creator could appear again.

Callandor: 2005-09-18

**However, in the Age of Legends, no one even remembered the existence of the Dark One. I would think that some DO-caused cataclysm even thousands of years prior to the AoL we know would cause the people of that time to know about the DO, even if they believe he doesn't exist.**

Which could even be proof of there being a battle at the end of the First Age. They have a battle, seal away the Dark One from knowledge (IE: "perfectly"), and then forget he exists in following generations.

**If something of this sort happened in Age 1, I find it unlikely that the people of Age 2 would forget it.**

Why? The First Age ended, the Dark One was sealed up "perfectly", and over many many years he was forgotten. There isn't any known time between Ages, so it could be 3000 years or 10000 years. I find it incredibly easy for them to forget about the Dark One.

**Rand is describing how he travels with the Power. How he rips a hole through the Pattern. Later, Egwene or Elayne ask somebody what would happen if a woman tried to do that. The person was horrified and said something along the lines of, it might tear the Pattern apart.

Maybe I am just misremembering the information. It has been a while since I read it. But if this were true, then couldn't the Pattern possibly be broken by somebody inside of it.**

Nope. Not what Moghedien said:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 37 - When Battle Begins

"Not at all, for you or any woman," Moghedien said, breathless and quick. The fear that boiled inside was plain on her face now. "That is how men Travel." The capital was plain; she was speaking of one of the lost Talents. "If you try, you will be sucked into.... I don't know what it is. The space between the threads of the Pattern, maybe. I don't think you would live very long. I know you would never come back."**

**Just struck me as I read this..destroying the WoT is exactly what the DO is trying to do.**

It might be, but it could also be that he's trying to simply remake the Wheel in his image.

**I know a lot of people disagree with this part, but I then believe Flinn and Nyn find Rand's body, join up and miraculously heal death, as has been hinted at numerous times through the books (i.e. Nynaeve won't be happy until she's healed someone three days dead).**

No, it's been said once. That's it.

**I mean, lets face it, it's not the first time someones done something previously thought to be impossible (Healing stilling anyone? And, oh, it just happens to be those two that did the impossible once...why not again!)**

Stilling was thought to be impossible -- we have direct evidence showing that it's impossible to Heal death.

And think of the implication of it if it was discovered. You'd have people becoming practically immortals, as long as they had an Aes Sedai or Asha'man near them.

Yaga Shura: 2005-09-24

"The Creator doesn't intervene. "

Okay, I know you don't buy this idea, Callandor, but just for the benefit of everyone else who may not have thought of it/ seen it before, don't forget the voice in the EOTW:

~CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL. ~

The only options for this voice are the DO and the Creator. But it clearly isn't the DO (for one thing, it doesn't make sense, and for another, the DO does take a part, as often as he can).

So, assuming it is the Creator, and he is talking to Rand, telling him things, convincing him that it is up to the Dragon Reborn to save the world, does that not constitute intervention? It's like telling someone "I'm not talking to you"

Callandor: 2005-09-25

**So, assuming it is the Creator, and he is talking to Rand, telling him things, convincing him that it is up to the Dragon Reborn to save the world, does that not constitute intervention?**

Nope. Did you miss this part of it?:

**I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.**

No, it's not intervention.

Anubis: 2005-09-25

**Stilling was thought to be impossible -- we have direct evidence showing that it's impossible to Heal death.**

The only time someone ever tried to heal death was Rand. And he sucks at healing.

JakOShadows: 2005-09-25

yaga shura: I see what your saying. But I don't necessarily see this as intervening. He's merely guiding him, telling him where to go. Like in the Matrix, showing him the door. But I think you are right that he can give help. He just won't work any miracles.

Yaga Shura: 2005-09-25

Callandor:

"No, it's not intervention. "

I knew you would say this. Did you not notice me deliberately trying to keep you from starting another pointless circular argument which lacks conclusive evidence either way?

jakoshadows

" yaga shura: I see what your saying. But I don't necessarily see this as intervening. He's merely guiding him, telling him where to go. Like in the Matrix, showing him the door. But I think you are right that he can give help. He just won't work any miracles. "

I'm not sure anyone would dispute that the Creator has the ability to intervene. I also don't think he is going to do anything in the LAst Battle or at any time, just that that particular speach is him intervening to convince Rand he's going to be on his own when the time comes.

Callandor: 2005-09-26

**I knew you would say this. Did you not notice me deliberately trying to keep you from starting another pointless circular argument which lacks conclusive evidence either way?**

You gave a quote that states explicitly within it that whoever was the voice (more than likely the Creator) will take no part. How is it that I have no evidence?

Oh, and this:

**RJ:

Another point he pressed was that "noone's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfer. Humankind messed things up, and have to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves.**

And in case you do not believe this one, you can listen to Jordan say more or less this here:

http://www.dragonmount.com/Interviews/ 2003-04-23.php

Interview #4.**

I've done everything but not give evidence -- so don't dare accuse me of circular logic.

**I also don't think he is going to do anything in the LAst Battle or at any time, just that that particular speach is him intervening to convince Rand he's going to be on his own when the time comes.**

It's not intervening -- how simple is this?

Eek: 2005-09-26

Acually. I would say that the Creator already has interviened one time. In The Eye of The World, somewhere after Aginor is killed, when Rand has just sewered the Trollock army he hears a loud voice. Quite simulary to the one the Forsaken hear when the DO speaks to them in Shayol Ghul. But why would the DO speak to Rand at this point?

therobotbadger: 2005-09-26

I agree with Yaga. If indeed that voice was the Creator, the mere act of speaking is a form of intervention. If he had not said that to Rand, it is possible that Rand might believe the Creator would intervene in the Last Battle and thus act differently, which could make him lose. Even the smallest act can have drastic consequences, and if the Creator did in fact speak to Rand, he's done at least a little bit already to affect the outcome of Tarmon Gai'don.

JakOShadows: 2005-09-26

Sorry if I confused you Yaga Shura. That is what I meant. I just hate people saying that the creator doesn't care about Randland at all. Because he wouldn't have created it if he didn't care.

Yaga Shura: 2005-09-26

"so don't dare accuse me of circular logic."

Chill, matey. Circular argument, not circular logic. As in, you can't prove it to me, i can't prove it to you, but we both already know what the other thinks, so why even start it?

Callandor: 2005-09-26

** If indeed that voice was the Creator, the mere act of speaking is a form of intervention. If he had not said that to Rand, it is possible that Rand might believe the Creator would intervene in the Last Battle and thus act differently, which could make him lose. Even the smallest act can have drastic consequences, and if the Creator did in fact speak to Rand, he's done at least a little bit already to affect the outcome of Tarmon Gai'don.**

Again, he has not, for the simple reason that the Creator does not intervene.

**I just hate people saying that the creator doesn't care about Randland at all. Because he wouldn't have created it if he didn't care.**

He created it, yes. But that doesn't give it any special properties over any other world that he's created. For all intensive purposes, he doesn't care about it -- it won't make or break his day if Randland is overtaken by the Shadow. He'll just go create more worlds.

Callandor: 2005-09-26

**As in, you can't prove it to me, i can't prove it to you, but we both already know what the other thinks, so why even start it?**

Yaga, I have proved it to you. Look at the link I gave you. It's the Budapest audio interview with Jordan saying explicitly that the Creator does not intervene. I gave the other interview quote with him saying the exact same thing. And, finally, in the quote you gave it states explicitly "I will take no part."

How can it be any more clear that the Creator does not intervene, and this was not intervention?

Yaga Shura: 2005-09-27

"How can it be any more clear that the Creator does not intervene, and this was not intervention? "

Like jordan has never mucked up in interviews before.

I'll stick with the books on this one, unless Jordan explains how this isn't intervention.

El Bogarto: 2005-09-27

"How can it be any more clear that the Creator does not intervene, and this was not intervention?"

Perhaps the point of contention is that some people see the very act of 'saying' "I WILL TAKE NO PART" as an intervention.

For example, try saying out loud the statement, "I will not speak – Only you can speak". You're speaking while you say it, but once the statement is actually spoken, it ceases to be a paradox.

silverwolf: 2005-09-27

It's not intervention because there is no action taken, no real information given. It's like he stood on the sidelines and yelled "I'm not going to help you." If he had told Rand something else--like how to cleanse the source or defeat the Dark One, etc.--that would be intervention. If he had guided Rand on where to face Ba'alzamon, that would have been interference. Since all he said boiled down to "you're on your own," RJ doesn't count it as interference.

El Bogarto: 2005-09-28

{It's like he stood on the sidelines and yelled "I'm not going to help you"}

I don't know if I can agree with that. Rand is pretty frustrated and asks, "Where?", to which he gets "NOT HERE" in reply.

And then the happy steps to nowhere appear. Quite the coincidence.

I don't know if he was Traveling or Skimming or what. But subconcious channeling issues aside, did he know

a)where he was (to Travel) or

b)where he was going (to Skim)?

I've always had the feeling that the voive pointed him in the right direction - "Not here, over there, I'm out of it, good luck". But hey - I could be wrong, I frequently am ;)

therobotbadger: 2005-09-28

But telling someone "I'm no going to help you" will mentally prepare him or her to act without help. This could give him or her a psychological advantage (or even a disadvantage) which could cause this person to act differently, increasing the likelyhood of victory or defeat. Or it could do nothing to the outcome; either is equally possible. Point being, you may have changed the outcome of events. ANY act of ANY sort constitutes intervention, IMO, including the statement "I WILL TAKE NO PART".

Lauric: 2005-09-28

****Just struck me as I read this..destroying the WoT is exactly what the DO is trying to do.**

It might be, but it could also be that he's trying to simply remake the Wheel in his image. **

First step to remaking it in his image is to destroy it. If, and thats a big if w/o any proof behind it (just a theory), Rand does decide to destroy the wheel to 'permanently' seal the DO away, then all he's doing is the DO-plan Step 1.

****I know a lot of people disagree with this part, but I then believe Flinn and Nyn find Rand's body, join up and miraculously heal death, as has been hinted at numerous times through the books (i.e. Nynaeve won't be happy until she's healed someone three days dead).**

No, it's been said once. That's it. **

That particular quote is only mentioned once, but i.e. = for example. There are other things hinting at Rand dying and being reborn. Don't have the books on me, so I can't get the actual quote.

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth."

I may be alone on this one, but I think that he'll die and be reborn on the day that dawns twice. (I've only seen people trying to figure out the first part)

****I mean, lets face it, it's not the first time someones done something previously thought to be impossible (Healing stilling anyone? And, oh, it just happens to be those two that did the impossible once...why not again!)**

Stilling was thought to be impossible -- we have direct evidence showing that it's impossible to Heal death.

And think of the implication of it if it was discovered. You'd have people becoming practically immortals, as long as they had an Aes Sedai or Asha'man near them. **

As was stated earlier, Rand has little talent in Healing, so him trying to raise the dead is much like someone who can't weave earth flows trying to make Cuendillar.

As for immortality... well, quite simply, no. I would imagine that to heal death, if it is possible, will take large amounts of the power (Choden Kal). Nynaeve or Flinn alone couldn't do it. Linked they probably couldn't do it, however, linked w/ CK...now thats some real power.

Nynaeve was also part of another "Impossibility" of the power. Cleansing Saidin.

JakOShadows: 2005-09-28

Silverwolf: I see your point, but he did do more than that. He made gateway to get there. But he didn't fight the fight for him. But we have the same basic idea here. Just different interpretations.

Jahar Narishma: 2005-09-28

"Acually. I would say that the Creator already has interviened one time. In The Eye of The World, somewhere after Aginor is killed, when Rand has just sewered the Trollock army he hears a loud voice. Quite simulary to the one the Forsaken hear when the DO speaks to them in Shayol Ghul. But why would the DO speak to Rand at this point?"

Several options, actually:

The DO could be talking to Rand because he wants to turn him.

Or more likely, Ishamael-as-Ba'alzamon could be talking to him, for the same reason.

Or it could be Lews Therin talking in his head.

Of the three, I'd prefer Ishamael as the culprit.

As for the quote "I will not intervene," regardless of whether saying that is, in fact, intervening, this quote combined with virtually everything that we have seen so far seems to imply non-intervention on the part of the Creator. Even when Rand and company have good luck or make some miraculous escape, it is attributed to the Pattern. Now, I suppose that every single character in the entire book, plus the voice of the Creator, could be wrong, and these miracles are all in fact interventions by the Creator, but this rather beggars belief.

No, it does seem quite apparent that the Creator is a "Blind Watchmaker."

Now, back to the original point of the thread: The Last Battle. If my proposed thesis is incorrect, then what alternate explanations can be offered that would as neatly fit the known prophecies and be similarly parsimonious?

Callandor: 2005-09-29

**Like jordan has never mucked up in interviews before.

I'll stick with the books on this one, unless Jordan explains how this isn't intervention.**

Yaga, listen to RJ say it -- I can't make it any more clear than this. There are two interview stating the exact same thing, and backed up by the books in the exact quote that you refer to as intervention (which it obviously isn't). It's proven. That's it.

Yaga Shura: 2005-09-29

"It's not intervention because there is no action taken, no real information given"

other than that the Creator isn't going to step in, and that only Rand can do it, but that he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to. If you say so.....

silverwolf: 2005-09-29

Yaga, if you were fighting a battle for the salvation of all mankind, would you have to be told that there would be no divine intervention? Personally, although I believe in God, I wouldn't expect it--if it comes, great, but don't rely on it. If God (or Allah, or the gods, or w/e you believe in) told you that you weren't going to receive divine help, would it change your actions at all? There is no precedent for divine intervention in Randland, and Rand knows this--the Creator didn't stop the breaking, he didn't seal the bore, he didn't cleanse the source, and he has never in known history taken any detectable action. That's how his statement in TEOTW is not interferece--he's just stating a known fact. If you consider that interference, fine, but consider that the limit of interference--no action taken, no hints of how to win TG, just a simple declaration that no aid will be given.

Callandor: 2005-09-29

**I don't know if he was Traveling or Skimming or what.**

It was Skimming. Rand even remarks that he remembers the steps from when he Skims to Rhuidean chasing after Asmodean.

**b)where he was going (to Skim)?**

Rand seemed to Skim directly to Ishamael's lair, which he had been in many times before.

**Point being, you may have changed the outcome of events. ANY act of ANY sort constitutes intervention, IMO, including the statement "I WILL TAKE NO PART".**

I'll say this very simply:

RJ says the Creator doesn't intervene, and never will. Leaves two options:

1. It wasn't an intervention.

2. It wasn't the Creator.

Take your pick.

**First step to remaking it in his image is to destroy it.**

No, remaking the Wheel is completely different from destroying it. The worlds that the Dark One has taken over, as refered to in the series, have fallen to the Shadow -- they haven't simply been destroyed.

**If, and thats a big if w/o any proof behind it (just a theory), Rand does decide to destroy the wheel to 'permanently' seal the DO away, then all he's doing is the DO-plan Step 1.**

Rand destroying the Wheel is impossible:

**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**

**I may be alone on this one, but I think that he'll die and be reborn on the day that dawns twice. (I've only seen people trying to figure out the first part)**

Yes, you're very much alone in that part.

Rebirth would only come through three sources:

1. Being put back into the world by the Wheel -- takes a while.

2. Creator intervention -- doesn't happen.

3. Nynaeve Healing death -- fundamentally impossible.

**As was stated earlier, Rand has little talent in Healing, so him trying to raise the dead is much like someone who can't weave earth flows trying to make Cuendillar.**

Did I refer to that statement? No, I'm refering directly to the BWB stating that no one inside and of the Pattern can change the destiny of the Great Pattern -- which Healing death would certainly qualify as.

**As for immortality... well, quite simply, no. I would imagine that to heal death, if it is possible, will take large amounts of the power (Choden Kal). Nynaeve or Flinn alone couldn't do it. Linked they probably couldn't do it, however, linked w/ CK...now thats some real power.**

Right, and why is this, beyond you trying to make it seem like it wouldn't become a commonality?

**Nynaeve was also part of another "Impossibility" of the power. Cleansing Saidin.**

That, was never stated to be impossible, as far as I know -- just refered to as "that would take more power than I know of" or "that would be a dream" etc.

lurk: 2005-09-30

Between the battle about intervention or no intervention i have a question.

we define death as the person is dead and gone. Makes sense to me. We can still argue about clinical death (no heartbeat and no respiration)from which you can come back within about three or four minutes (15 to 20 if your body is extremely cooled), and biological death (your body has decayed enough so you cannot be revived. Think about the dead girl in the stone of tear that Rand tries to revive, her blood is mentioned to be thick as in becoming solid already so it cannot flow anymore).

But what if the statement of the finn is with regard to Rands soul (or LTT's forthat matter). In order for his soul to live on his body has to die. Maybe the turning part is about this. to save rands soul for the forces of light she has to destroy his turned body and soul to release the soul.

But still the clinical death part and biological death part seems like an option to me. Maybe alivia knows a way to stop Rands heart and respiration long enough for the enemy to think they have won, then Nynaeve and maybe Damer jump in and revive the "dead Rand" in time for him to win the LB. Just a guess but i like it.

El Bogarto: 2005-09-30

**It was Skimming. Rand even remarks that he remembers the steps from when he Skims to Rhuidean chasing after Asmodean.**

And yeah, he had been to Ishamael's lair. Good call. I concede the point.

Balls. ;)

therobotbadger: 2005-09-30

silverwolf ** If God (or Allah, or the gods, or w/e you believe in) told you that you weren't going to receive divine help, would it change your actions at all?**

Whether or not the Creator's actions in tEotW can be considered intervention or not, think about the situation. You say yourself there has been no precedent for intervention in the past. Just like in our world. So if God were to suddenly start speaking to you, you're telling me this wouldn't change your actions? I mean, the CREATOR actually SPOKE to Rand! I'm not sure we appreciate the gravity of this situation. With no precedent for intervention (or interaction of ANY kind), the act of speaking to someone (anyone!) is a HUGE deal! Put aside for a moment the question of whether or not useful information was impartet. Contact was made, which is more than we have seen to happen at any point ever before. Think of it as if God were to suddenly say to you before something important, "HEY, I KNOW THIS IS HARD, BUT I CAN'T HELP YOU OUT." I don't know about you, but I would flip out. The immensity of the Creator speaking to Rand is something we can't simply overlook. I think the very fact that something was done that has never been seen before, and is supposedly contradicted by evidence we have been given is sufficient evidence to at least label this event as something special; whether intervention or not, it's important. [This is all, of course, assuming that the voice at Tarwin's Gap is actually the Creator.]

JakOShadows: 2005-09-30

Lurk: I like what you said about Alivia stopping Rand's heart. But I could see it more as in connection the BT. To draw Taim out into the open. In the LB, there just seems like too much going on for it too work. In the LB, I could see it more as someone disguised to look like Rand and they fake his death. And the way the Min's vision worked, it usually happens directly to the person.

Callandor: 2005-10-01

**I mean, the CREATOR actually SPOKE to Rand! I'm not sure we appreciate the gravity of this situation. With no precedent for intervention (or interaction of ANY kind), the act of speaking to someone (anyone!) is a HUGE deal!**

Again, look at the break down I gave. Two options:

1. It wasn't the Creator.

2. It wasn't intervention.

If you assume it was the Creator, it wasn't intervention because RJ has said explicitly that the Creator does not intervene. Plain and simple.

Eek: 2005-10-01

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**

I'm really going to swing of the main question on this one... Not even going to mension how the LB will "need" to be...

Why did the Creator make the Wheel? The Pattern? Shortly why does the creation even exist?

There must be a reason for this, the Creator is obviously a thinkin' being (I still hold on to the theory that it was the Creator who spoke to Rand in the first book, intervention or no) and so he must have a reason to put down so much time to creat the Pattern. Of course it could be out of pure joy but... it would destroy the meaning with the whole story.

So, I would say that the Wheel exists only to hold the Dark One inprisoned. Otherwise a linear timeline would be a great idea.

Remember the words of the aiel..

(Now I don't recollect it perfectly)

The Dark One seeks to slay the great snake. He seeks to blind the eye of the world..

Something like that.

The DO seeks to destroy the pattern, not to remake it.

Callandor: 2005-10-01

**So, I would say that the Wheel exists only to hold the Dark One inprisoned. Otherwise a linear timeline would be a great idea.**

No. The Wheel is time itself. The Dark One is held imprisoned, in his prison from the Creator. What can break him free is only one thing: man messing with the prison (AKA, the Bore). That is the only function of the Wheel and/or Pattern that requires "interaction" with the Dark One's prison: to make sure man doesn't screw with the prison, or if he does, to fix it.

If you want to call this being part of imprisonment, ok, but that's incredibly watered down, since if the entire world were destroyed, the Pattern and the Wheel gone forever -- the Dark One would remain imprisoned.

JakOShadows: 2005-10-01

Eek: I don't why you think the DO wants to destroy the pattern. There was a quote brought up in this theory that states that the DO wants to remake the pattern in his image, not destroy it.

Eek: 2005-10-02

No. The Wheel is time itself. The Dark One is held imprisoned, in his prison from the Creator. What can break him free is only one thing: man messing with the prison (AKA, the Bore). That is the only function of the Wheel and/or Pattern that requires "interaction" with the Dark One's prison: to make sure man doesn't screw with the prison, or if he does, to fix it.

Then why even bother to create the pattern? The world is the prison, and as long as the wheel (repeating timeline) exist the DO cannot break free. His main objective is to destroy the Wheel.

Astra-al: 2005-10-02

The pattern could actually be the DO's prison imo.(though it is kind of a stretch) Before you say whatever and ignore this... listen.

It's the wording that makes it possible. Whenever its said that something IN the pattern can't destroy the pattern, it means a soul living in the pattern. If the pattern was the DO's prison, he would be surrounded by the pattern, but not IN the pattern.

Rather, he would be surrounded by it, encompassed by it, but not technically IN the pattern, and therefore could destroy it/affect it.

(Note : I'm not saying I believe this, just saying it could be possible because of the wording used, unless there is some interview/Q&A thing I haven't seen that directly counters this)

JakOShadows: 2005-10-03

Astra-al: I agree with what your saying. Because in the circumstances right now, the bore is where he is going to try and escape, so as of now the pattern is what is keeping him from escaping. But once the bore sealed like new, like it never happened, then it wouldn't be so clean and cut. I think its him trying to touch the pattern, and Meiran helped him unwittingly. Once it is completely fixed, there's going to be trouble making this same argument. Because right now, he can touch the pattern to some degree and control it, so the wheel is fighting back. What I'm trying to say is, once the bore is sealed and the DO isn't touching the pattern at all, then the pattern will not be trapping him because he is not fighting the pattern. He is sealed away, so he would be fighting his prison. In fact, the way the book describes this age, this is probably the age in which we are most vulnerable the DO, since it is right after the bore. So just looking at examples in the timeline of the book will lead us to believe it. But I think the best evidence for arguments like this is the metaphysical references in the series and BWB.

Eek: 2005-10-03

Let me rephrase... I mean that the DO is trapped inside the pattern. Inside time (therefor his words; even I cannot reach outside time. Something like that)

silverwolf: 2005-10-03

The description of the bore--a "thinness" in the pattern--also indicates that the pattern might be the DO's prison, as Astra-Al said, "he would be surrounded by it, encompassed by it, but not technically IN the pattern." This is kind of quibbling with words, but since RJ likes to do that, why not? I'm not convinced one way or the other, though, since the evidence in the series is sketchy at best and interviews have been little help in determining the exact nature of the DO's prison...it might be important for sealing the bore, but otherwise will likely have no effect on the series.

silverwolf: 2005-10-03

Another possibility is that the DO's "prison" merely refers to his inability or difficulty in touching the pattern--that is, he may not be so much imprisoned as sealed away from the pattern (like a restraining order doesn't imprison the offender but does keep him/her from the victim)

Callandor: 2005-10-04

**Then why even bother to create the pattern? The world is the prison, and as long as the wheel (repeating timeline) exist the DO cannot break free. His main objective is to destroy the Wheel.**

The World is not the Dark One's prison.

The Creator imprisoned the Dark One at the moment of Creation. He put him in a box over ~there~, he then went and created the Wheel, the One Power, over ~here~; the Pattern was the result of what the Wheel wove.

**It's the wording that makes it possible. Whenever its said that something IN the pattern can't destroy the pattern, it means a soul living in the pattern. If the pattern was the DO's prison, he would be surrounded by the pattern, but not IN the pattern.**

But he's not -- the Dark One's prison was made by the Creator at creation. It's not the Pattern, it's not the Wheel, or anything else -- it's just the prison that the Creator made for him.

The Dark One, yes, could possibly destroy the Pattern and Wheel (though he wants to remake it instead); a person within the Pattern (like Rand for example) cannot destroy the Wheel or the Pattern. Period.

** Let me rephrase... I mean that the DO is trapped inside the pattern. Inside time (therefor his words; even I cannot reach outside time. Something like that)**

He is not:

BWB: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of TimeCHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are ta'veren can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born ta'veren, must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern."

He's not apart of the Pattern -- he's not imprisoned by the Pattern.

**The description of the bore--a "thinness" in the pattern--also indicates that the pattern might be the DO's prison, as Astra-Al said, "he would be surrounded by it, encompassed by it, but not technically IN the pattern."**

No, the Bore is not the thinness in the Pattern:

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, PROLOGUE: The First Message

"Even after all his visits--and the first well over three thousand years in the past--Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed."

The Bore is the actual hole in the Dark One's prison that was drilled -- the thiness is just the ability to sense the Bore, which is restricted to just around Shayol Ghul.

**Another possibility is that the DO's "prison" merely refers to his inability or difficulty in touching the pattern--that is, he may not be so much imprisoned as sealed away from the pattern (like a restraining order doesn't imprison the offender but does keep him/her from the victim)**

Well, what other synonym can you make for "imprisoned" other than "sealed away"? ;)

Eek: 2005-10-04

My theory is that the DO is trapped by the pattern and the meaning with the pattern is to keep him inside it. Either he's a part of it or outside it his prison is his world and the heroes of the horn is the gatekeepers holding his prison intact. And the Wheel is part of it all keeping the world from ending and releasing him.

Callandor: 2005-10-05

**My theory is that the DO is trapped by the pattern and the meaning with the pattern is to keep him inside it. Either he's a part of it or outside it his prison is his world and the heroes of the horn is the gatekeepers holding his prison intact. And the Wheel is part of it all keeping the world from ending and releasing him.**

No, again, the Dark One is seperate and outside the Wheel and the Pattern. He is imprisoned outside of both at the moment of creation by the Creator. The Wheel it time itself, it takes soul, puts them into bodies, hence making threads. These threads all together, and the course of their actions, result in the Pattern.

JakOShadows: 2005-10-05

Once again, I think everyone except Callandor is confusing what is going on in this age with the bigger picture. It directly states in the book that the DO was imprisoned at the moment of creation separate from the wheel. What ya'll are seeing is in this age, the prison has been broken through and now he struggling to touch the pattern. It is my belief that the drilling of the bore not only drilled through the pattern but also the prison, and the seal prevent the DO from touching the pattern but don't keep him in his prison. So in this age, what we are seeing is the struggle to keep the DO from controlling the pattern. But after this age, once the bore is completed fixed like new, and he is trapped back in his prison, then his prison or whatever he is struggling against will once again be the prison. In fact, this has made think of one detail. Perhaps in the last battle what Rand needs to do is not only completely seal up the hole in the pattern like new, but also seal the DO back into his prison to prevent him from getting anywhere near the pattern. I have no idea how, but as his prison separate, that's what lets the people in Randland forget completely about the DO. And this does have to happen eventually, not necessarily by Rand, but before the second age.

Callandor: 2005-10-05

**Perhaps in the last battle what Rand needs to do is not only completely seal up the hole in the pattern like new, but also seal the DO back into his prison to prevent him from getting anywhere near the pattern.**

But there isn't a hole in the Pattern -- at least not of the like you are refering (there actually are multitudes of what you would consider "holes" in the Pattern, due to the spaces between threads -- the main reason people can Travel is by utilizing these holes and putting one by the other and crossing the distance).

The hole is the Bore, and only in the Dark One's prison. There is a thinness in the Pattern, yes, but that was always there.

Eek: 2005-10-07

"No, again, the Dark One is seperate and outside the Wheel and the Pattern. He is imprisoned outside of both at the moment of creation by the Creator. The Wheel it time itself, it takes soul, puts them into bodies, hence making threads. These threads all together, and the course of their actions, result in the Pattern."

English isn't my primary laungish and so what I meant may have been lost in translation. To rephrase once again then. My theory is that the pattern exists to hold the Dark One inprisoned. Yes, he's outside the pattern but still trapped by it, not trapped in it like I've said. Sorry but English isn't really my thing.

What I mean is simply that the patterns faith is to keep the Dark One right were he is.

Callandor: 2005-10-08

**My theory is that the pattern exists to hold the Dark One inprisoned.**

If you really want to take a watered down version of it, yes, that would be true. However, by that the Pattern also exists to break the Dark One free, since humanity is at fault for the prison having a hole in it (or whatever truely was covering it). The Dark One is imprisoned by whatever the Creator did to imprison him -- not truely the Pattern.

If the world were destroyed, the Dark One would still be imprisoned, because of what the Creator did.

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livia, Logain, and Rand

by Jahar Narishma: 2005-07-23 | 6.2 out of 10 (10 votes)

Previous Categories: The Last Battle

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