1
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-14
Crap. I try not to have pet peeves, but this is another. Why does each thing have to refer to one person? This game is extremely old, and it, as far as we know, wasn't created as some sort of prophecy. If we are going along the lines of one person actually using these things to enter finnland, why can't one person carry daggers, bring a torch, be courageous, and carry a flute too? In the end, the most important part of this theory should be how these things will be employed to rescue Moiraine, if that is what is being suggested, and how all four will get together and enter finnland to accomplish it; I think you will find it difficult to get those four individuals in one place, for one mission. Just some ideas.
2
Rand-althor: 2003-07-14
I tend to disbelieve that it will be a host of people rescuing moiraine. I think that the most will probably be Thom and Mat, though I really see no reason for Mat to go, I mean he owes Moir nothing, and Thom feels guilty about it, so I am of the belief that Thom will go alone.
3
Mairashda: 2003-07-14
interesting idea and I agree that Thom will do for the "music" part of this. apart from that this riddle isn't much of one... the finn take this quite literally when the ask mat after he entered the doorway.
4
imfunny81: 2003-07-14
TSR page 462 Birgitte on the ToG
"Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind"
1) Courage- My guess for courage is OLVER, largely because I think that it will be from Mat's group at the end of CoT (ie. Mat, Thom, Noal, Olver, etc.) that will rescue Moiraine and he is somehow clearly connected with the game of Snakes and Foxes, it would only seem fitting that he be involved in the defeat of the snakes and foxes...
2) Fire- Clearly, with the idea of ‘fire to blind,' there is a huge hint that it relates to Aludra's firesticks that MAT is definitely trying to figure out how to make and use. so I think this is for Mat
3) Music- I agree that this is THOM, esp. in light of Min's viewing of him pulling a blue stone (like Moiraine's focusing stone) out of a fire.
4) Iron- This is where I differ from most people. I think that the Iron to bind is going to be the three of them. they cheat by coming in with iron.
I think the first three parts of the chant give each a role in subverting the power structure; no longer will the fox people be in control as they were in Mat's previous encounters w/ them. Using Aludra's firesticks and Thom's music, they'll take control and use iron (maybe guns?) to bind the foxes.
As for motivation – Mat thinks there is treasure inside the Tower of Ghenjei. That might be enough for him to circle it 3 times unknowingly and suddenly be inside with whoever he is with. As for how he gets to the ToG exactly, that's somethng RJ will put together. that's how they will have Thom's harp, the firesticks and the iron when they go in – they weren't planning on going in so they didn't remove their firesticks, instruments, iron, etc., but Mat's hatred for them will make him lie about following the covenant and he'll try to defeat them. Olver will figure out how to defeat them while they are inside. He'll finally figure out that you have to cheat to win the game.
5
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-14
Imfunny-
Yeah what your saying works too. I guess i was looking in the whole cast of characters while you were looking only in Mat's group.
One thought. anyone think there might be more than one try? I was thinking and what if someone accidentally enters the ToG finds out Moiraine is in there, gets out then tells the others and everybody goes int the second time? Just something to think about.
6
Callandor: 2003-07-14
Ok... Olver going into the Tower... that is just pure stupidity to me. Yes he plays the game, whoopie. He could just give them the idea not actually go. Would you let a 10 year old go into another dimension to fight and free a person from creatures not the same evil as the DO but nevertheless evil in the same terms? I dont think so!
A whole group? No way. Look at Rand, Mat, and Moiraine going into the Tear doorway, they didnt even know they were all in there till they all left! And a whole group is supposed to go in for a cummulative effort? No.
Best options are Mat and Thom. Thom can easily go on his own, but I myself wouldnt mind Mat going also, even if they do get seperated just so he can do the sacrifcing the light prophacey like many people believe will be fulfilled there (plus him getting some kind of a payback to them).
Thom has music, he will be couragous of course, Mat can give him the dang firesticks so he has fire, and daggers dont really work because Mat goes into the Tear doorway with his daggers and they are made of steel not iron but a special dagger made from iron or just a raw piece of the ore is enough. As for Olver, like I said before, just to make the connection for Mat to say hey thats what was told to me in the doorways, Thom goes on and however it connectes there is no point for anybody but Thom to really go. Mat going as well is more for fun to me.
7
juitzhead: 2003-07-14
"As for motivation – Mat thinks there is treasure inside the Tower of Ghenjei. That might be enough for him to circle it 3 times unknowingly and suddenly be inside with whoever he is with. "
i dont think that would be enough for Mat to go. Afterall, all he needs is his luck to make money. :)
8
Him-who-may: 2003-07-15
I think Olver will go into the tower as he is the only person who still believes that the game is winnable without cheating. I think the realisation that this is not true will play an important part.
Somebody very wisely pointed out that nobody with their head screwed on straight would let a ten year old into the ToG. This I agree with. But I do not think that the rescue of Moiraine will be intentional. Of all the plots and adventours in the series very very few are planned. Most are spur of the moment or accidental. With this I think that accidental is more likley.
When in the tower I believe that this is when Egwene's dream of Thom and the stone comes into play. He will be the 1 to rescue Moiraine and will play a very important part here, but I do not believe he will be the only 1.
Courage- Olver facing up to fact that he can't win without cheating. this realisation is treated as the end of chilhood when Mat mentions it.
Fire- Mat and the firesticks. Rather obvious
Music- Thom. Again obviously.
Iron- This stumps me a bit more. I can see no character in Mats group with an association with iron, but this could be introduced at a later point. It will probably be a major character in the group who we learn a bit more about. My money is on Tuon, Noel or more likley Julian, who has not been upto very much recently.
9
imfunny81: 2003-07-15
Callandor
I did not say that they would purposefully put Olver in harm's way. My vision of what will happen is that Mat will come in view of ToG when he's in the area (maybe when trying to find and retrieve the Band, maybe some other way...) and from hearing the old stories that it had treasure in it, he'll be curious and goes over to it with Olver and Thom. They go just for a look. He's fascinated by the fact that there is no entrance or exit and idly circles the tower with Thom and Olver. He does so three times and all three of them are suddenly inside with the fox people... Because it was unintentional, Mat still has his firesticks (which I think he will learn from Aludra to make in the near future), Thom still has his harp or some other instrument with him. Somehow, Olver will learn that the only way to beat the Foxes is to cheat and this will allow them to beat the foxes and rescue Moiraine.
juitzhead
it doesn't sound like much of a motivation for the reason that you mentioned, however, Mat loves the thrill of the hunt and the idea of treasure is mysterious enough to catch his attention.
My basic point is that they aren't going into ToG with the intention of rescuing Moiraine, because they aren't even planning to go in, nor are they aware of where the inside the ToG is...
Moiraine's rescue is one of my favorite future plots, so I look forward to hearing any other comments people have...
10
Lewin: 2003-07-15
Callandor-
What you say about them not being able to enter Finnland as a group do apply to the gates we've seen so far but we dont know how the the Tower of Ghenjih works, it might be different.
As to Olver going with the group it's not a impossibilty, Cause I don't think they will decide which to go. No, they will rather enter the tower by accident, since they dont know how to enter yet, and Olver might very well be a part of that group wandering around. Although i don't personally think so.
As to the Courage, Fire, Music, Iron thing I dont think thats represents persons, it's just what you need to cheat the Finss and "win the Game".
11
Anubis: 2003-07-15
courage fire iron music...
walk in with a shotgun wistling a happy tune. that would get the bastards attention. btw this is just out of boredom i dont expect it to be posted. tho it might be funny. i can picture mat rollin in with a cannon, wistling. makes me smile.
12
Tyr: 2003-07-16
Maybe you are missing a point with Olver. Even if Mat would set the situation correctly and they were all in the ToG, how would Olver know that the game snakes and foxes is based on this? What would cause Mat to iratically say " Oh, and by the way Olver, this place we're in here? Well, you see the game Snakes and Foxes is based on this people."
If Olver we're to go, he would possibly CAUSE strengthening because he wondered off. Mat woudn't leave him in finnland so now there is an urgency.
And what is stopping this situation from happening:
Someone ging to the snakes and ask them for a weapon to kill the foxes, then go to the foxes and ask them how to defeat the snakes, and tell them that if they do not give you a lamens terms answer you'll use the weapon? Just a thought...
13
The Leveler: 2003-07-16
THe Finns were literaly asking Mat if he had iron or music ect. It pretty clearly goes to Thom. Courage: Thom has that, it's pretty obvious. Fire: Thom pulls out his firebreathing kit. Music: duh. iron: his knives or something.
14
Lewin: 2003-07-16
Tyr-
Don't have the quotes but it's mentioned, by Moiraine I think, that the Finns will punish you (or something like that) if you ask for evil things. don't know bout you but i think killing someone is pretty evil. :)
15
heronblade: 2003-07-17
i think the iron to bind could refer to julien cause as a thief taker/catcher he could use iron manicles to bind criminals
16
Ashaman Ragsdale: 2003-07-17
OK I'm new at this so don't be to brutal! I have to say I enjoy all the theories, but I think Mat and Rand are out of the picture! Why? Well the door to the Fox world (sorry don't recall their name) was deystroyed, that only leaves the door to the snake world. And if we all remember mat tried to go through the snake door a second time, and he couldn't. So because Rand, and mat went through the snake door once they couldn't go in that way again. The only way I see them getting in to their worlds is either by portal stones, or the world of dreams! Please tear this apart!
17
golem22: 2003-07-17
My bet is that olver is Gaidal Cain reborn and that maybe he enters the tower at some point most likely accidentaly in the future and becomes "strengthed" ie ages time may be different there than the rest of randland --- as to the rest a group of heros may have to enter and free him useing the other elements of the riddle.
18
imfunny81: 2003-07-17
Ashaman Ragsdale -
I completely agree with you that Mat won't be able to go in to the Snakes world using the door ter'angreal... however, I very much doubt that that means that he can't be the one that goes to the Snake world.
It seems to me that the whole reason the ToG is mentioned both in Perrin's dream and by Mat when on the riverboat (in one of the first books) is because it will play a vital role in entering the Snake people's world through the front door...
you get the feeling with the way the snake and fox ppl respond to ppl coming in the door ter'angreals that they are coming in through like a side-door and that the snake/fox ppl know as soon as someone comes in that way, that they are there to get answers of some sort...
i think if one enters the fox/snake ppl's world by the Tower of Genjhei, you're coming in through a different door, maybe the front door to their world from the Westlands... the point is, Mat wouldn't violate the rule of the ter'angreal 'game' if he's not playing that game...
19
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-18
Portal stone worlds wouldn't work, T'A'R is a constant and the Finn world is somewhat connected to T'A'R,I think the ToG is the definatrly their best bet.
20
Niahanchi: 2003-07-18
A few notes. It hasn't been proven that people can't go through in a group. Maybe having contact while going through the door would facilitate this?
Oliver has a role. His love of the game is emphasized too much for him not too. I don't think that Mat would let him go in voluntarily. However Oliver is quite the resourceful child, especially with all of the training he is getting from his “uncles”. If he wants to go in, nothing will stop him. Then Mat would have no choice but to chase him in.
21
Callandor: 2003-07-18
People expect Mat or Thom to go through the Tower of Genjei, not the doorways, since the Tower leads to the world of the Finns.
22
Rhodric: 2003-07-18
I think it's thom and mat. mat may not enter the finnworld but he will lose his eye to do with this 'rescue'. thom has music, courage, and maybe his knives are iron. for fire he could probably get some matches off of Aludra (she used them to light her lantern in the barn in TDR).
i think the "iron to bind" is the most significant part of the rhyme. what and who exactly does iron bind?
23
TheDragon7190: 2003-07-18
personally i think its stupid that all kinds of people are going to get together and go in and save moiraine.
Nobody but Perrin and Birgitte know that it is a doorway to finnland. Perrin does not know that the finns are holding moiraine, or what the finn are. And Birgitte never knew Moiraine.
24
Vaughn882: 2003-07-19
Ahhh, if the good guys only talked more, they would do things much faster. The only reason I think multiple people may go into the tower of ghenji are:
Mat- the character most connected to the finns, he has visited them both and is the only person (other than Rand) that knows whats inside there. He plays snakes and foxes with olver, and it seems like the only way anyone could get out would be if they had his luck. However, he cant re-enter through the doorway ter'angreals, so the only way he could get in would be through the tower of ghenji.
Perrin- Perrin has absolutely no connection to the finns, and knows nothing about them, however he knows where the ToG is and what is inside it.
Olver- the only reason it is beleived that olver will go in is that he loves snakes and foxes, which is connected to the finns.
Thom- The reason thom may go in is Egwene's dream of thom pulling the stone out of fire, and the music part.
Birgitte- this is a stretch, she is totally unrelated to the whole thing, but knows where the tower is.
I don't think they will all go in, or even that more than one will, I'm just telling you the reasons people think multiple characters will enter. I do think that mat, thom, and olver may have to meet perrin if they are going to enter the ToG.
25
Priest: 2003-07-19
Personally I feel that the "Iron to Bind them" line means that whoever goes in will have to be connected to the others. As was previously stated, Rand, Mat, and Moiriane were all in the same place at the same time and none of them knew it. I think that whoever goes in will have to be linked together somehow, perhaps all linked with iron bracelets, or each person has to have a piece of iron and that will keep them all together.
Just my two cents =P
26
Callandor: 2003-07-19
Now that is something I haven't heard and really like. I could see iron shackles being used to hold groups together, but 2 at most I would think. Dont need more then Mat and Thom, and even Thom can go by himself.
But a neat idea.
27
Jiana: 2003-07-19
Well... Mat, Olver, and Thom are all very close geographically speaking to where Perrin is at the moment. I think it very likely that their two parties will meet up soon, so it's possible. The question is how would the subject come up? Also, people keep throwing out the idea that the "iron" part means knives, etc. Knives are steel, which is altered iron (stuff added and stuff taken away), but not exactly iron. So to those people who believe that the iron part means knives, I have a question: If steel could be accepted as iron, what about something made of cuendillar, which is Power-altered iron? Or perhaps even one of Elayne's ter'angreal that was originally iron?
28
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-20
Preist-
I love this idea! That could be the reason finn don't like iron it allows you to travel in groups...
29
Callandor: 2003-07-20
Knives dont work, Mat went into the Tear doorway with his knives in his boots and they didnt even notice.
30
Weird Harold: 2003-07-21
Jianna said, "Well... Mat, Olver, and Thom are all very close geographically speaking to where Perrin is at the moment."
That's true only if you consider the ppite ends of the same country and about 400 to 600 miles separation "geographically close."
Mat is only about 25-30 leagues (100-125 miles) from Ebou Dar.
Perrin is somewhere in Northern Altara, probably north of Salidar someplace and well off the Lugard Road that is Mat's intended route -- assuming of course that Tuon doesn't drag him back to Ebou Dar.
31
Jiana: 2003-07-22
Weird Harold: I realize the distance. However it does seem likely to me (not saying that it WILL happen though) that the two parties will converge in that region...
Callandor: I did not mean that I thought knives would work. I was putting the question forth to those who thought that knives would.
32
Weird Harold: 2003-07-23
Jianna said, "I realize the distance. However it does seem likely to me that the two parties will converge in that region... "
I think Mat and Perrin will reunite with Rand, but I can't see what their last known locations will haveto do with it -- other than Mat seems to be headed back to Ebou Dar and hs to be close enoughto get there quickly because he's not with anyone who can Travel.
Perrin is with Asha'man who can Travel, but he has no idea where Mat is, and by Traveling, there is no reason for him to stumble into Mat's party.
More to the point of THIS theory, neither Mat nor Perrin have any logical reason to be headed in the direction of the Tower of Ghenji any time soon.
Thom and MAt are the only characters linked with removing Moiraine's jewel from a fire by Egwene's dream and the TOG is the onlyway for Mat to re-enter *Finnland, so obviously those two are going to wind up in western Andor inthe next book, but I just don't see how Perrin being at the other end of the same country when last seen implies they're going to join up "'cause they're close together" -- they're not close, and they're NOT even headed in converging directions. There's a STRONG hint that Tuon is now in charge of Mat's party and that means Mat's and Rand are both headed for Ebou Dar soon.
33
Jiana: 2003-07-23
Ackkk! I've been bested! Weird Harold, I have only one thing to correct you on:
My name is spelled with only one 'n.'
:) :) :)
34
Jes: 2003-07-30
I thought this was such a well-known fact that I kept hesitating to post it, but apparently not ...
In many, many fairytales and myths, iron is magically binding on fairies or evil beings -- iron caskets, iron shoes, iron doors, chains, etc. -- can keep them confined or confine their magic, force them to your will, or cause them pain.
35
Jiana: 2003-07-30
Jes: I did not know that, thank you for posting it. Music is also binding to spirits and such. Supposedly because they get caught up in the rythms.
36
juitzhead: 2003-07-30
dont worry Jiana, WH has done that to most of us here.
Jes, if you have any further ideas on iron bindings go ahead and post them.
This was something only recently bought up as a possible solution to the 'iron' part. most people were inclined towards knives or something similar.
37
ranman38: 2003-07-31
just doing some research on this, and...just want to point out, that in Rhudein (sp) The finns asked if he had anything to "make Light" not necessarily fire. Small point, but worthy of note. Of course the chant of the game is fire to blind, but I think by that comemnt it is not limited to fire. And I strongly feel that "iron to bind" is literal, not figurative. Matter of fact it is all literal, but obviously just taking these things with will not do the trick, the when and how is the matter here.
38
Ashaman Ragsdale: 2003-07-31
I don't think that "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind" means "ten" people will go. Right now we have no idea if Moiraine even needs saving. But i do think if she does, that "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind" is a list of things one person will need to do, or use to win. I also think there is a way to win with out cheating, and Olver will figuer it out. Olver isn't the only one who thinks you can win with out cheating, WH ch30)
"You were less likely to lose what you kept on your person, and Olver had lost already lost more in ten years than most people did in a lifetime. But he still believed you could win at Snakes and Foxes without breaking the rules, too."
Then later a few sentences more...
"Unfortunately, Beslan was another who seemed to think you could win at Snakes and Foxes."
39
Crazy Ashaman: 2003-08-08
Matt and Perrin could meet up in Ebou Dar. Some do believe that Mat is headed back in that direction, and if Perrin is to strike a deal with the Seanchan sp?, then they might want him to go and talk to Suroth ???
As for the rescue of Moiraine ... I have no idea really how this would work. I think Olver has a large part to play though because of all the emphasis on his love of the game. What I want to know though, is what is in Moiraine's letter to Thom? THAT could have a huge role. Perhaps Thom keeps rereading it to understand exactly what it is. Since Moiraine knew that she would die, isn't it reasonable to assume she knew she would go into the doorway? I would not be surprised if we are told what the letter says very soon.
40
Jes: 2003-10-05
I just noticed something from book 4 while re-reading about Mat's visit to the Finns: When Rand backs out holding his sword of fire, Rand tells Mat that the light kept the Finns away, that they couldn't even look at him, it "blinded" them.
So, when the time comes, Mat can remember this as proven, not just part of a rhyme.
By the way, I'm of the Mat & Thom school, not a whole "Scooby Gang", but not necessarily Thom alone either.
41
mako0424: 2003-12-07
I think there were alot of good points and defintily some off ones.
not meaning to disregard any theories but i do not think those four objects relate to any one person or any people in general. I think the game can definitly be won without cheating, and i know Olver (who i still believe to be Gaidal no matter what errors in time) will figure out the way to best the game without cheating.
I also whole-heateredly agree, courage will be needed to go in to Finnland and attempt to best the Foxes and win moiraine back. Fire can be used to blind the foxes and music to stun them, and i believe iron will be needed to hold the foxes at bay. again iron in many cultures and theories can best magic (similar to Matt's necklace) iron was believed to like absorb magic and what not. I think this is how you best them without cheating. You use these four characteristics to honestly stop the foxes and get Moiraine back fairly. I believe at most Matt, Thom, and olver will save moiraine, and i believe as possible as the tower of Ghenji is to get in, i think perrin and the whole slayer thing will deal With that, while Thom and Matt attempt to use a portal Stone as suggested by maybe someone like Moiraine through the letter. And luckily olver will come through after having seen the symbol of the triangle with the wavy line. (representing the foxes and snakes) and although this is dangerous, olver will come through as the hero while Thm maybe literally pulls Moiraine out of the fire.
another question to ask is though, when Egwene saw thom pulling the stone (representative of Moiraine) it was out of fire. the fire could symbolize danger, but maybe Matt surrounds Moiraine with firesticks from ALudra to hold the foxes at bay, after Thom stuns them with music, and olver is the one to piece this all together.
there is my theory.
42
brother of Battles: 2004-04-08
First off, all those things are a weakness to the finns. When Mat steps through the gateway in Tear and he is told all about having to go to the Aiel Waste, marring DotNM, dieing and living again, and everything else, when he first gets there he is asked..."according to the agreement do you have any fire, iron, or anything that plays music?" That states straight out that they are fearful of those things. Secondly, when you mention Egwene being the only person you could find being related to fire, did you not remember when Rand was talking to Egwene and Elayne in the Stone of Tear he said he didn't really have to think very much when it comes to fire, it seems to come naturally to him. And finally, Thom will be the one to rescue Moiraine. Egwene was thinking about her dreams when she was still with the Aiel. One of them was of Thom reaching in a fire to pull out a stone like the one Moiraine wears on her forehead. So, Thom will need courage to enter the ToG, since Birgitte tells Perrin in the Wolf Dream that only, and here I might be wrong, only fools would enter that place. So Thom will need courage to enter the ToG, Fire to blind the Finns, Music to daze them, then Iron to bind them and find out where Moiraine is. And on an off note but still a related one, it will be Thom who rescues Moiraine since they are obviously in love. Moiraine mentions something about knowing who it is she would wed if had the chance, and Thom saying that he has left a woman in danger or something like that. If someone can help me out with quotes it would be great. Moiraine says that in the Stone of Tear in I believe TSR, and Thom says that in LoC while talking to Mat where the exiled AS are.
