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Home | Index | Archives | Help
oiraine died!
by Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-04-04 | 4.42 out of 10 (19 votes)
Previous Categories: The World of the Finns
Whatever this viewing of Moiraine was, it did not involve her showing up alive again, because if it did Min would have had more faith that its time had not yet come. Example:
Had Logain been lying in the road, rasping his death tattle, she would have wagered all she had and more on a miraculous recovery, somehow. The appearance of an Aes Sedai to Heal him. Something. What she saw was always true. It always happened."
So, Min believes in miracles for Logain but not Moiraine? Why won't she bet the farm on this viewing? What makes her so sure the viewing has failed, and not that it simply hasn't happened yet?
The last clue we have about this mysterious viewing was: "She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"
Dead and gone doesn't seem like typical household terms, so I'm guessing that the precise words were part of the viewing. And since Min is never wrong, Moiraine must be both dead and gone.
Fortunately, in WoT there are at least two ways for dead people to show up again! First, transmigration, presuming the Great Lord can ressurect anyone he chooses, or that he didn't somehow get confused between Lanfear and Moiraine, or even have them merged in a new body a la Slayer. Second, and far more likely, Moiriane can return as a ghost, now that they're popping up all over the place.
Moiraine's ghost can fit Min's viewing that hasn't come true and also meet the criteria of Moiraine being dead and gone.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-04-10
Okay. If Moiraine is dead, which I guess I would rather believe (that way, as I have always wanted, hoped, and prayed, Mat and Thom wouldn't be "saving" her anytime soon from the Finns), how do you propose her as a ghost will be key in preventing him from failing? Truly, I hope Jordan doesn't have the "ghost" of Moiraine save the day...I mean, if she is dead Jordan, don't wimp out, just leave her dead! I don't believe Moiraine has to be dead, and I am still confused as to the explanation of Min's viewings failing? Do Min's viewings fail or not? If a viewing of Moiraine "failed", isn't Min implying it failed because Min is under the belief Moiraine is dead, and therefore incapable of fulfilling the viewing? Your explanation sounds convoluted. Min can only read future events off people. But, if someone told Min Logain died, Min might say, "wow, then the viewing I had of him was the only viewing I have ever had that failed." So, you will have to do better than that for an explanation. Otherwise, and including my understanding of what Min says, I am still under the belief Min is alive...unfortunately, because of Jordan has Mat and/or Thom save her from the Finns...it just better not happen that way.
Frenzy: 2005-04-10
You do realize that is this happens, i will $#!* a solid gold brick, because i said it would happen five years ago as a joke. (http://www.theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=frenzy)
i've maintained for years that Moiraine doesn't have to be alive and around to aid Rand. She yanked his strings like a puppetmaster all throughlut The Great Hunt without even being there. She had weeks after Rhuidean to plot and scheme and lay groundwork for the "help" Min sees Rand needing.
When Min knows something about her viewings, she is right. (we assume) She knows Rand needs Moiraine's help. Min's operating under the assumption that Moiraine's dead. She's interpreting her own vision to be a failure, she isn't "knowing" that it will fail. Moiraine's pre-death handiwork could very well be what Rand needs. Perhaps what Moiraine wrote in that letter to Thom, spurring him to some sort of action?
amazinglarry: 2005-04-10
I have seen other people argue before that the "woman who is dead and gone" is actually Lanfear, not Moiraine. The idea is that Cyndane will do something, maybe by accident or with unintended consequences, and her actions will end up helping Rand win the last battle. That way a woman who was literally "dead and gone" for part of the series will help Rand succeed.
Consequently, Min's thoughts about the viewing failing are about a different viewing of Moiraine, not the "dead and gone" viewing. Assuming that the specific phrasing was part of the viewing, I think it is much more likely that it's about a shadow character...we all know that Min's viewings never fail, and shadow characters are the only characters that can come back from the dead.
Ozymandias: 2005-04-10
I agree with Tamyrlin in that belief can become fact in the absence of actual knowledge. And since we all agree we know next to nothing about the world of the Finns, is it not possible that Moiraine is hovering in between both worlds, so to speak? She wouldnt therefore be dead (because she is captive of the Finns), but wouldnt be alive in the sense that she wouldnt exist in the actual world of Randland. Which means that Min could be right in thinking that Moiraine ISNT alive, but wrong in that she is DEAD in the traditional sense of the word. Though in retrospect she would have to be dead, since Lanfear obviously died and was resurrected, and by all common sense Moiraine would die as well
Callandor: 2005-04-10
**So, Min believes in miracles for Logain but not Moiraine? Why won't she bet the farm on this viewing? What makes her so sure the viewing has failed, and not that it simply hasn't happened yet?**
Because everyone else is telling her again and again "I saw her die," and it's people she trusts? Her Viewings are infallible, but she's human and can doubt herself.
**Dead and gone doesn't seem like typical household terms, so I'm guessing that the precise words were part of the viewing. And since Min is never wrong, Moiraine must be both dead and gone.**
Ah, so simple it seems? But why is it dead and gone? Why not just dead, if it was simply Moiraine's ghost that was intergral?
This point is debatable, since you did not bring up the others (that I'm quite sure you are fully and utterly aware of).
I'm lazy (as usual), so I'll just quote the WoT FAQ on the subject. I'm sure Min's viewings will come up again, but why not read it again? ;)
**2.2.6: How do we know that Moiraine is not dead?
In [LOC: Glossary, entry "Moiraine", 710], it says "She vanished into a ter'angreal in Cairhien while battling Lanfear, apparently killing both herself and the Forsaken." That "apparently" definitely left the question open.
WH tells us that Lanfear was "held" by the Snakes and the Foxes, either before or during her transformation into Cyndane. Though becoming Cyndane could have involved Lanfear's death at some later point (see section 1.2.4), the "held" statement indicates that Lanfear could not have died immediately after falling through the twisted door with Moiraine in TFOH. In other words, the act of falling through the door was not an automatically fatal experience (though it doesn't preclude the possibility that Moiraine died later).
One piece of evidence which points to her possible death is the breaking of her bond with Lan. However, we know from [TPOD: Prologue, Deceptive Appearances, 28] that "being stilled snapped [an AS's bond to her Warder] as surely as death. One of Irgain's two apparently had fallen over dead from the shock, and the other had died trying to kill thousands of Aiel without making any effort to escape." (Irgain is one of the AS stilled when Rand escaped from the box in LOC; Flinn Healed her of stilling in WH.) This quote shows that stilling an AS has the same effect on her Warder as her death. Thus, Lan's reaction only indicates that his bond was "snapped," by death, stilling, or something else.
Besides stilling, the breaking of Lan's bond could conceivably have been caused by the shutting off of the Red Door into Finnland. When Moiraine chastises Rand and Mat for using the Tear doorway in [TSR: 15, Into the Doorway, 178-9], she says, "One of you would have been bad enough, but two ta'veren at once - you might have torn the connection entirely and been trapped there." If one substitutes "channeling combatants" for "ta'veren," one has a description of what happened when Moiraine and Lanfear went through the door. The "tearing" of the connection between the two universes may have torn the connection between Moiraine and Lan, as well.
Of course, the above is either circumstantial evidence of or conjecture about Moiraine's survival. The real evidence that convinces us Moiraine is alive is the various visions that imply that she will return.
These are: Egwene's vision [TFOH: 15, What Can Be Learned in Dreams, 214] of Thom pulling Moiraine's blue jewel out of a fire, and Min's comment in [ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 543] that Rand would fail without "a woman who was dead and gone," which almost certainly refers to Moiraine, and her comment in [ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 546] that "Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed." She must have had one or more viewings about Moiraine that were not fulfilled, and since WE know that Min is never wrong, then Moiraine will almost certainly return at some point.
Furthermore, she has a "small shred of hope" before attacking Lanfear, so there IS hope for her future. This "small shred" is probably a glimpse that Moiraine got of her future from a source other than the Rhuidean rings, either from the Red Door in Tear, or more likely, from a vision of Min's (probably the one that predicted Moiraine's marriage to Thom - see section 2.5.3).
Several people, though, have wondered why, if Moiraine had a prophecy or a Min vision indicating she will survive the battle with Lanfear, did she behave as if her death were a fait accompli, and make arrangements accordingly?
The answer is, she's human, and humans have doubt, especially when it comes to our own mortality.
The Rings of Rhuidean showed Moiraine a lot of stuff, and then nothing after the scene at the docks. All the WOs said that the rings show a person's entire life (or possible lives). In between going through the rings and the showdown at the docks, Moiraine had firsthand experience of the predictive power of the rings. So, she had no reason to believe that she wouldn't end when the events she saw in the rings did.
If Min did have a vision involving Moiraine and Thom, that probably would not have been enough to completely convince Moiraine. Min's talent isn't thoroughly understood, even by Min. She sees lots of things she can't interpret. Given the later, highly convincing, evidence from the Rhuidean Rings that she was going to die, it's reasonable to suppose that Moiraine wouldn't have thought that Min's vision, whatever it was, had not meant what Min thought it did, or that it was false. After all, it wasn't like Moiraine was able to check back with Min after her trip to Rhuidean. And note that not even Min herself is convinced that her visions are infallible.
So, she arranges her affairs in the expectation that she's going to croak. However, there is still something which makes her think that she just might somehow survive. It's not enough for her to tell anybody, but it's enough to give her a little bit of hope.
Which raises another question: If she didn't die, then why didn't the Rings show anything post-Foxland?
Possibly the rings don't work across dimensions. Remember, they work by showing many possible futures for the person who goes into them-- the possible results of future decisions, etc. If the Rings can't see what Moiraine does/is going to do while she's in Finnland, they can't extrapolate to any later point, after she returns. Another possibility is that the rings are somehow linked to the viewer's channeling ability, and thus couldn't see past a point where she is severed (assuming Moiraine was stilled when she fell through the doorway, of course).**
**2.5.3: Why do we think that Thom will marry Moiraine?
Moiraine says she knows the face of the man she will marry better than El/Eg/Ny know their future husbands [TSR: 6, Doorways, 90-1]. This could mean that she will never wed, but it could mean that she really does know who she will end up marrying. Support for the latter case is that, according to Elayne, Moiraine had some passion in her voice when she mentioned a husband, despite her attempts to then brush it off. After going through the Tear twisted doorway, she immediately tells Thom that he will live through the next set of adventures. This is not the only example of Moiraine being so sure of Thom's fate; while the party is traveling through the Ways in TEOTW, Moiraine implies that Min saw something about Thom which makes her think that Thom was not killed by the Fade [TEOTW: 45, What Follows in Shadow, 568]. She certainly seems to have some sort of knowledge of Thom's future. Thom keeps referring to Moiraine as a good-looking woman with more and more sincerity as time progresses and he discovers he no longer loves Morgase.
Possible scenario: How would she know who it was? Being Aes Sedai she'd likely have a lot of chances, but here's a guess. When Min describes how her viewings work her standard example is this: I see two people who have never met and know they will marry -- and of course she had both Thom and Moiraine in front of her in Baerlon. So, this would also be the reason why 1) Moiraine was so sure Thom hadn't been killed by a Fade, despite Rand's and Mat's protestations, and 2) why she tells Thom "I will see you again. You will survive Tarabon." [TSR: 17, Deceptions, 195] At this point, she is absolutely certain that she will see Thom again. This is before she goes to Rhuidean and goes through the rings that show possible futures. When she did that, she saw nothing beyond the point where she tackled Lanfear through the Twisted Doorway. She thus decided that Min (or whatever oracle led her to think she would see Thom again) had been wrong. [Sean Hillyard] Note that, right before tackling Lanfear, Moiraine suppresses a "small bubble of hope," which she feels, even though she is sure she's about to die [TFOH: 52, Choices, 632].
Add to all this speculation Egwene's Dream of Thom pulling Moiraine's blue head jewel out of a fire (i.e. Thom rescuing Moiraine from durance vile in Finnland). Nothing sparks a romance (in stories, at any rate) like a rescue.**
**First, transmigration, presuming the Great Lord can ressurect anyone he chooses, or that he didn't somehow get confused between Lanfear and Moiraine, or even have them merged in a new body a la Slayer.**
Well, given that the first part of this statement is false, the entire method is pointless for Moiraine ;)
Ashaman Samuel: 2005-04-11
The viewing hasn't failed, RJ himself confirmed that Min's viewings have never failed or proven untrue:
All of Min's viewing have come true except one does this mean she is no longer infallible?
No, it doesn't. And actually, that's not quite true, that all of her viewings have come true but one.
So we have confirmation that Min hasn't failed yet. So Moiraine isn't dead because her viewing hasn't yet come to pass.
Hank McCoy: 2005-04-11
Why is it the majority of the WOT community can not accept the fact that Moiraine is dead? Other characters have died with out this kind of $hit storm. I mean really, just because you liked a character does not mean she needs to be around for the entire serries. Get over it. If she is alive than I say shame on you Jordan.
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-04-11
And I say shame on you Hank. The many viewings, most convincingly the one of Thom and the blue jewel (Min's viewings are worded questioningly sometimes) have led me to think that Moiraine is alive, and she was not one of my favorite characters. The reason that no one accepts Moiraine's death is that she is the only "dead" character with any evidence that might say she is alive. Besides, it's Jordan's series; he can do what he likes.
Frenzy: 2005-04-11
more proof that Moiraine died:
The Great Hunt Chapter 22 - Watchers
For the hundredth time - or so it seemed to her - she considered the words to use. "Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, **should anything happen to me**, for your bond to pass to another." He stared at her, silent. "***When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately.*** I do not want you to be surprised by it."
"Compelled," he breathed softly, angrily. "Never once have you used my bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that."
"Had I left this thing undone, you would be free of the bond at my death, and not even my strongest command to you would hold. I will not allow you to die in a useless attempt to avenge me. And I will not allow you to return to your equally useless private war in the Blight. ..."
Stilling may snap the bond as surely as death, but Moiraine made arrangements and laid a Compulsion that would activate ~upon her death.~
Callandor: 2005-04-12
**Stilling may snap the bond as surely as death, but Moiraine made arrangements and laid a Compulsion that would activate ~upon her death.~**
But as you said, stilling severs the link as much as death does. There is no such thing as an Aes Sedai who is stilled and still has a Warder. It's anything but clear cut, and given the other knowledge we have through Viewings, Dreams, and what Moiraine and others alone have said -- she is coming back ;).
Heck, I still hold the belief that the doorway collapsing was more than enough to destroy the link between Moiraine and Lan, without stilling her.
**The many viewings, most convincingly the one of Thom and the blue jewel (Min's viewings are worded questioningly sometimes) have led me to think that Moiraine is alive, and she was not one of my favorite characters.**
Actually that was Egwene's Dream, not one of Min's Viewings. But it's still convincing.
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-04-12
Yes, I know it was one of Egwene's dreams, I just used viewings as a general term.
Frenzy: 2005-04-12
Callandor said, "Heck, I still hold the belief that the doorway collapsing was more than enough to destroy the link between Moiraine and Lan, without stilling her."
When Rand, Hurin & Loial used the Portal Stone to go to a mirror world, Hurin could still smell Fain's trail. It was tenuous and odd, but it was still there. So, do you still believe being in another world without a direct way out is enough to sever a bond, but isn't enough to mask a trail for a Sniffer?
maharbry: 2005-04-12
I personally believe Moiraine will return as herself (same body, mind etc.) However, there is no way to determine one or the other. Min says it's the only viewing that has ever failed. All this guarantees is that Min believes Moiraine dead. That doesnt make it so. We are beating a dead horse here... all we can do is wait and find out, because nowhere in the books will you find indisputable evidence one way or another.
Callandor: 2005-04-12
**So, do you still believe being in another world without a direct way out is enough to sever a bond, but isn't enough to mask a trail for a Sniffer?**
Yes, because we know that people can leave through other worlds, through different Portal Stones.
And if you want me to phrase it differently, you're using two different contexts. One is another world (where Rand, Hurin, and Loial went to), another is a seperate dimension, in which the natural laws that govern it are radically different from those in Randland. Also, add in the fact that what Hurin senses, and the Warder bond, are most likely not related at all, let alone to be things based off what happens in two different circumstances.
We really don't know what would happen to her, compared to what we know through example happens when people travel to different worlds. I just enjoy the idea that Moiraine entering into Eelfinnland, and then that doorway being so violently destroyed had an effect on her bond to Lan very similar to that of release, death, or stilling, because it allows for more simple plot movement for what Moiraine will most likely eventually do.
If she was stilled, oh well. But she did not die. Not by a long shot ;).
**Yes, I know it was one of Egwene's dreams, I just used viewings as a general term.**
Well be specific man! ;):)
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-14
Again, there is one major clue about Lan's bond hidden in TDR. When Moiraine et al. are chasing Rand across the continent, Moiraine tells Lan that she could transfer the bond at any time. If she thought that she wasn't going to live, or that she wasn't going to be able to return to Randland for a while, she may have transfered the bond so Lan would be useful when she's gone.
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-04-14
Ok, I'll be more specific from now on.
The Hurin situation is different. If I may paraphrase what Selene, aka Lanfear, said: The other worlds are mirrors of Randland. Important events are mirrored as they happen, while some may be mirrored before they happen. The passing of the Horn of Valere is a very important event. Hurin is following the mirror of where Fain will go, not a connection to the real world. The trail is reflected; what would reflect the warder bond?
Hope this makes sense.
Asmodean: 2005-04-15
ok..so who do we know in da books that is definitely dead..either by the books saying so..or robby officially stating it..
be'lal, rahvin, sammy, asmo...some other random peeps not worth mentioning...
but never is it stated by robby that moi is dead...ask him directly and he wont answer...why?...cause shes coming back...in my experiences with people...f she was really dead...we would know it...believe what ya want...but I knew she was coming back the sec she went through the doorway
mattox: 2005-04-26
i believe that moiraine will surely be back. most likely in knife of dreams. the viewings and dreaming supports it. but, the only thing i didnt notice on the post is that the "dead and gone" thing could have been refering to cadsuane as she was also believed by many to be dead and gone. and she is also crucial to rand, known from mins viewings about teaching him and the ashaman something or they will die.
Merk: 2005-04-27
But at that point Min knows Cadsuane is alive and well. So why would it be pointless for her to tell Rand she needs Cadsuane at that point? I think it's clear that Min's viewing says Rand will fail without Person X, and since Min "knows" Person X is dead and gone, she thinks it would do no good to depress Rand by telling him that. I think it's pretty clear that Person X is Moiraine.
fistandantilus: 2005-04-28
I like the idea that the woman "dead and gone" could be Caddy. It makes a lot more sense than Moiraine any way. We already know that Caddy has a crucial role,and if she fails, Rand fails, and the DO wins. But Moiraine is still coming back, cause she is one of the best characters in the books, in my (not so) humble opinion. There is too much in the books that point that way, even with out that particular viewing. What else could Egwene's dream mean?
Frenzy: 2005-04-28
Your analogy makes sense, Wielder of Waterflame, but Hurin isn't smelling the passage of the Horn of Valere. He's smelling the passage of Fain. is THAT important enough to reflect onto a mirror world?
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-29
Moriaine, or Lanfear. Also Morgasse may fit this. I don't know if Min ever saw her, but she knows Elayne, and has probably seen a portrait. Min thinks that Morgase is dead.
haertchen: 2005-04-29
One point that people keep missing is the statement by Min that occurs very soon after the "dead and gone" quote, at least chronologically. I think it is the same day.
"Min sighed regretfully, but it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."
A Crown of Swords, "Into the Woods"
There are some important points that can be read out of this quote. First is that the phrase "a woman dead and gone," in Min's mind, could definitely be applied to Moiraine. Min is certain Moiraine is dead and gone. Second, Min has had a viewing about Moiraine that she believes has not been fulfilled. Third, she believes that this viewing could not be fulfilled if Moiraine were dead.
Thus from this second quote, we learn that Moiraine satisfies all the requirements for the first quote. No need to pull Cadsuane into it, especially when Min hadn't even seen her before.
I think the reason why Min doesn't have more faith in this viewing is because she doesn't keep seeing it. With Logain, she kept repeatedly seeing the aura around him. Every time she saw it, her conviction was renewed. With Moiraine, she has no such reinforcement, and quite a bit of negative reinforcement from other people. This does affect things.
As for the ghost bit---given the fact that we haven't seen Moiraine's body on-screen, we have no idea what the rules are in Finland when someone enters while the portal is burning, and that the term "dead and gone" could be interpreted as Min being poetic for simply "dead," I see no reason to stretch this far when Moiraine might simply be alive. Quite the contrary: There are several hints that Moiraine is completely alive.
Kurtz: 2005-04-30
Aiel Finn, the idea that it might be Morgase would fit quite sweetly with Elaida's foretelling of the importance of the Andoran Royalty at TG.
I'm not convinced however. I think it does mean Moiraine. Not everyone would know the books as well as us buffs here in Theoryland and I think the evidence is too slight for it to be a red herring. Pretty crappy reasoning but I think perhaps the most logical. RJ can't disenfranchise by being too cute. The clues are clues. Plus you don't mess around with the little blue lady' character. It would be cruel. ;)
Zepher: 2005-05-01
I believe that the woman whom Rand needs is LTT's wife, not Moiraine or any other.
Aiel Finn: 2005-05-02
I think that it's Moiraine too. I was just putting out another option. Moiraine had too many things going, too many loose ends to just be removed so quickly.
Merk: 2005-05-02
How would Min know what LTT's wife looked like?
The person has to be:
1. A woman.
2. Someone Min could specifically identify, so that she is someone...
3. Believed to be dead and gone by Min.
I don't think LTT's wife (Ilyena?) fits that, nor Cadsuane. Did Min ever see Lanfear as Lanfear? Even if she had, Lanfear doesn't look like Lanfear anymore, she looks like Cyndane, so wouldn't Min's viewing be of Cyndane, not Lanfear? I rule out Lanfear in my mind at least.
Which other women fit the above criteria? I'm assuming Min knows by this point that Siuan is alive and escaped from the WT, not stilled and killed.
Meanwhile, I think it's fairly safe to assume Moiraine lived when she went through the doorway, because it appears Lanfear did (her "held" comment referenced elsewhere in this thread).
So personally I think she is alive and well, or at least not too much worse for wear, in Finnland, awaiting rescue or trying to get out herself or perhaps already freed in a way that she hasn't been able to make her presence known.
Even if you think she's dead, you've got to at least admit that RJ wants us to wonder if she's dead. There are just too many tantalizing clues and hints. I mean, everyone "killed" in this book was either killed, clearly and unequivocally, right in front of us, or characters "know" the person is dead and they are dead wrong.
free will: 2005-05-13
I wanted to comment that I think Moiraine is not in the Wetlands (or Shara, or the Waste, or Seanchan, etc.), but that Thom and Moiraine can still marry. Everyone talks about Moiraine "coming back", but Thom could (and likely will) come to her. Similarly, the Dark Prophecy mentions the man who channells choosing between life eternal (which sounds like joining the DO) or death beyond dying or something like that. So Rand might yet meet Moiraine again even if she never returns to the wetlands, or maybe he just needs "her help" and they won't meet again physically.
I think that's it's obvious that death and Rand are going to do something weird, maybe Moiraine is working the bugs out of that particular "something weird".
JakOShadows: 2005-05-13
The only problem with that theory, is that we don't know what she could do to solve the death problem. The only is if she made a deal with the finns to let Rand live, and that doesn't make too much sense when she could be released and help him more. It just seems as if she doesn't have many options to change the rules of death/rebirth.
Wielder of Waterflame: 2005-05-16
I think it is, Frenzy, because Fain happens to be carrying the Horn of Valere. Passage of Horn of Valere=Passage of Fain and Co.=Hurin scents passage of Fain and Co.
William Seeker: 2005-08-21
Well we don't actualy know Min's exact veiwing. So I think Min doesn't fully understand it. 'The last clue we have about this mysterious viewing was: "She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"' Rand may need Moiraine to suceed, but it might not have to be her phisicaly, or even as a ghost, but maybe just something she did that will him. My only problem with that is Egwene's dream about Thom and Moiraines jewl. Which might be explained if Moiraine told Thom where something was in her letter to him. Something that could possibly help Rand?