Comprehensive Ghenjei/Moiraine Theory
by egerrish: 2005-08-26 | 6.14 out of 10 (14 votes)
I thought that after reading through the significant portions of the books again and reading numerous posts, there are some new thoughts that came to mind about the tower of ghenjei and the snakes and foxes (I don't want to use terms Aelfinn and Eelfinn because they are harder to type,)
This theory is based upon a premise that I think are well founded – Moiraine does come back to life. Min's viewings seem to conclude that, both that Rand needed someone who was woman who was “dead and gone, (ACoS,Ch35)” and that some of her viewings of Moiraine did not come true, which never happens (same chapter). Moiraine, therefore, has to come back one way or another. If you don't accept that she will come back, or that she will somehow deliver an important message/lesson to Rand, you might as well stop reading.
Some people argue that Lan's bond proves she is dead. And that is a problem. We know that Moiraine's bond did not pass to Myrelle when she went to the snakes, so why did it when she went through the second doorway if she isn't dead? I think there are two possible explanations to this. First, the door melted, severing her tie to Lan in the physical world. The second is that she released it the moment she went through the door. Rereading the end of TFoH is curious. If you read it again, it says that Moiraine looked for Lan and thought about how many times he saved her life. Then she grasped for saidar and lunged at Lanfear. Why grasp Saidar if you aren't going to use it? It becomes a beacon for Lanfear. I personally believes she severs the bond as she is going through the doorway or on the other side. Both of these theories, however, are only conjecture and maybe RJ just didn't think about it (I doubt it though). However, they are not the meat of this theory.
After realizing Moiraine comes back and is in the tower of Ghenjei, it is left to sleuthing and in this order: who, where, how, when?
The who, I think is explained in one of Egwene's earlier dreams which seem to narrow it down very succinctly:
"Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead." (emphasis mine) (TFoH,Ch15) It's really important to note that Egwene had this dream at the same time – it is a single dream/prophecy that can't be broken up. So Thom and Mat are doing something that relates to one another at the same time... I have a theory about this later.
Other theorists have added people to this list but I think it's important to remember that in the game of snakes and foxes that there were two humans in the game (LOC, Chapter 33), and the only way they could win is if they cheated and captured the snakes and foxes (TSR, 28) Another revelation in this chapter is that Mat says, “If [he and Olver] were going to play the game, it might as well be without his luck taking a hand.” So I think that two things come out of this chapter – the rescuers will be two people, and that luck will play a huge hand in the outcome – as we know from Egwene's dream, Mat is throwing dice (using his luck). Thom has the motive as well. There are multiple references to what he thinks of Moiraine physically, and he seems despondent about her final letter... not only because it contains Owyn's gentlers, but also because it's from Moiraine (and perhaps more?)
The where, I think, is at the tower of ghenjei itself. Perrin (TSR, Chapter 28) is at the tower when Birgitte tells him that the tower is hard to get out of in the land of men, but even harder in TAR – so we know it can be entered outside of TAR. Slayer somehow enters, but I'm not really sure how that works. RJ, the trickster that he is, says that, “Perrin walked around [the tower of ghenjei] twice without seeing any opening, not so much as a crack, not even a mark on that smooth, sheer wall. The smell hung here, though, that cold, inhuman stink. The trail ended here. The man — if man he was — had gone inside somehow. He only had to find the way to follow.” (emphasis mine). Hopper than frantically tells him to stop, then rebuffs Perrin for being a cub.
I think that RJ dangles it in front of our face again. In many fairy tales, the proper way to do things is to do it three times – Perrin had walked around it twice, I believe Hopper stopped him from walking around one more time, or else he would have been inside! (I read this on another post somewhere, but I can't remember where – I apologize to whomever I have just plagiarized!) Nobody in Mat or Thom's entourage knows that trick though... or do they? We know that Birgitte knows how to get in, but her thread is tied to Elayne's too closely for some time yet it seems, and perhaps for the rest of the books. Noal (Jain), who seems to have random knowledge, may know the walking around three times is the way to get in, Thom may also know from one of his stories, or Mat might know from a past memory, if he chooses to dig it up. I guess this can be RAFO.
The tower itself makes the most sense – Mat and Thom are at least somewhere nearer to physical tower than most of the rest of the characters, and their plot string is dangling right now – especially Thom's, and absent Deus ex machina, there is no way to get into the land of the foxes anymore because Moiraine fried it, and Mat can't use the doorway in Tear. Someone else said portal stones, but that doesn't seem worthwhile anymore – the AS and Asha know traveling, and who is going to randomly come by to channel them in without that person going in with them (remember, only 2 people)
The HOW, I think is most interesting, and most difficult. We know they need four things: Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.
Courage to strengthen: Others, I think, have it when they say that you can't be afraid of them. I can't imagine that courage would need to be a physical thing (The S&F's also do not ask if they courage, so it probably is not a physical item), and as we see from the last time that Mat was in the doorways, he liked to cuss the Snakes and Foxes out in the old tongue, perhaps as a remembrance from past lives that he was supposed to, in anycase both S & F's treated him better when he called them goats. We know that Thom knows the Old Tongue, and so can converse with them.
Fire to Bind: We have a few possibilities here. I think that Aludra's matches are the best possibility. It's important to note that Rand told Mat that the snakes were afraid of his fire-sword, so Mat will remember their reaction to fire. Aludra's matches, according the Nyneave in TFoH Chapter 33, that matches seem to be strike anywhere, “I have smoothed the little holes that hold the sticks so they can no longer ignite on the wood. A good idea, no?” Aludra is in the entourage, and while some hypothesize it's because she will make cannons (that may also be true), I think this is the reason her matches have been brought up twice previously in the books – when Mat and Thom save her and with Nyneave in TFOH.
For Music to Dazzle, this one I have no concrete idea as of yet. On another post, someone suggested a music box. Again that seems too dues ex machina. I think that Thom, as a gleeman is the clue here. He can chant, or sing in high chant, something that we hear about occasionally in the books. There is common, plain chant, and high chant. High chant is supposed to be the most sonorous. Why would they need instruments of music when a person can sing as beautifully as an instrument? And high chant is in the old tongue. Maybe there is a certain song or tale they need to sing.
Iron to Bind – again, I think that RJ slaps us in the face with this one... twice. Mat pulls out a steel dagger and the snake doesn't seem to care. Second, WAAAY back in the Eye of the world we have: “Captain Domon was walking by, and he paused, squinting toward the glint.”It do be metal," he said... “A tower of metal. I have seen it close up, and I know. River traders use it as a marker” “A metal tower?” Rand said...The captain nodded. “Aye. Shining steel, by the look and feel of it, but no a spot of rust. Two hundred feet high, it be, as big around as a house, with no a mark on it and never an opening to be found.” (emphasis mine)
How do you keep the snakes and foxes trapped in their home? Why with a steel tower, of course.
Again, others have said perhaps it's Cuendillar, which is another possibility, but I think it's easier for Jordan just to say that they used steel, made from iron, because Mat remembered that the snakes didn't notice the difference, rather than explain how Mat and Thom find out heartstone is made from iron as well, and then receive some of it without going to Tar Valon's siege. And I think that once they shy away from the fire and are dazed by Thom singing, Mat can slap on a steel necklace (something like an a'dam) and they are trapped, forced to do what you want, tricked according to the deals they made.
The When? Well that's tricky. It could be right away in KoD or it could be in the middle of book 12. All we know is that Moiraine has to come back. It may be that she only needs to say three words to Rand and then he will succeed in TG. And I assume Min sees Moiraine and Thom together (every protagonist in WoT gets married, let's face it), which could happen post book 12.
There are a few other points to discuss as well, but here is how I think it will go down:
At some point, Thom is going to decide to go after Moiraine, but doesn't know how. Mat will help by filling in knowledge of where she went and perhaps Noal will tell them about the tower, and Thom will remember seeing it in Book 1 with Bayle (Mat has holes in his memory b/c of the dagger). They will travel at some point to the tower. They will walk around it three times and be in a different place (again, how they acquire that knowledge I don't know). Perhaps they will begin near the spiral towers that mat describes in his first visit: “Through one circular window he saw three tall silvery spires, curving in toward each other so their points all aimed at the same spot. They were not visible from the next window, three paces away, but a few minutes later, after he and his guide had rounded enough curves that he had to be looking in another direction, he saw them again. He tried telling himself these were three different spires, but between them and him was one of those fan-shaped trees with a dangling broken branch, a tree that had been in the same spot the first time. After his third sight of the spires and the strange tree with the broken branch, this time ten paces farther on but on the other side of the hallway, he tried to stop looking at what lay outside at all” (TSR, 15).
These spires look like the tower of ghenjei (sort of), and “silvery” seems to indicate that they are made of steel, and remember, RJ doesn't give us useless bits of knowledge EVER. If we wanted to know that Mat walked by the same window twice, he would have only mentioned the tree. The towers are important, somehow.
Soon after getting in, they will see one or many of the creatures (like the game), but instead of moving away from the creatures, like in the game, they will move toward the creatures, perhaps insult it, blind it, daze it, and capture it with steel, or some combination thereof. At this point, I think Thom and Mat split up, according to Egwene's dream... Mat does one thing while Thom does another. We know he will be bleeding from what appears to be his eye. From Egwene's original dream, and another that says she sees, “Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale (TDR,Ch25).” And Min's viewing that says the same (TEotW,Ch15). We also have Noal's line CoT,Ch28 “Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,” which also surrounds other lines about Mat and the Seanchan.
I have two theories about this. I don't know if Mat would go to the snakes or the foxes, but he will gain something that will attain “the lightning” for his eye. We know that Hawkwing's symbol was a hawk clutching lightning bolts – it could be control over the Seanchan he gains, or access to them somehow, like “what do I need to do to marry Tuon?” or else it could be knowledge – give up one eye for a third eye, which represents omniscience in many stories, and would follow the Odin motif – like he could see everything that the Seanchan saw and be an omniscient battle commander (wishful thinking, I know). This is a bit hazy yet and I would appreciate other people's ideas here.
Before I get to Thom I need to explain a few other possibilities about Lanfear, Time in Finnland, and Moiraine.
First of all, before Moiraine and Lanfear fell into the Doorway, Moiraine had snatched the angreal away from Lanfear. I believe, that even though you do not need to be physically touching an angreal to focus its power, to have it wrested away from you on the other side of the doorway (physically at the tower of ghenjei or in another parallel universe perhaps) would surely break your focus on it, leaving you with an immense amount of saidar or saidin in you that would immediately burn you out. Therefore, on the otherside of the doorway, Lanfear would have been stilled and “held.” (according to Cyndane's POV) I think that after awhile, she must have died somehow – suicide or another way. That explains why Cyndane is significantly weaker, she was healed by the DO after being stilled, which reduced her power just like Suian and Leane. This theory is contentious and much talked about but that is my thought.
Second, we know that time flows differently in the land of the snakes and foxes. When Mat, Rand, and Moiraine visit the snakes, they come out on the same night – we know that because Rand was obsessed with time, and if days had passed, someone would have noticed. When Mat went into the land of foxes for what seemed like an hour, seven days passed (or else he hung for seven days... doubtful). So even if Moiraine was in the land for a year... only a few days would have passed (unless it's like TAR where time flows more complicatedly than that). Basically, I argue she wouldn't have died of starvation, and a year would not have passed like in Randland.
Finally, if Moiraine ever played snakes and foxes as a child she would know to create fire with saidar and tie it off. She couldn't have channeled for a whole year (I'm not sure of the chronology from the end of TFoH to the end of COT), but since time is different, perhaps she could for a week, or a few days so the foxes wouldn't bother her and hold her like they did Lanfear. Thom, who is separated from Mat and is looking for Moiraine could rescue her from the fire she has woven (ala Egwene's dream) and voila, Moiraine is back.
This theory, like all others has some holes in it. I'd like to see some discussion however on this theory because it twines in all the most plausible parts of the other Moiraine and Ghenjei theories I've read so far.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-05
I like your ideas egerrish, most people aren't willing to go to far into the actual rescue, so I like the idea that Mat and Thom split up. I was guessing that Mat would somehow make another bargain with the Finns, losing his eye in the process, possibly having to fight his way out after making the bargain, or attempting to make the bargain. Although, to be honest, I have never liked the idea that Thom and Mat go back in to save her. I don't and have never agreed with the idea that the doorway melting severed the bond. Instead, I think Moiraine saw what would happen, Lan would attempt to avenge her, etc, so she had to make sure the bond was passed as soon as possible. I am willing to accept a second explanation that in the battle with Lanfear, she was stilled. Finally, I don't believe you are on target with the saving of Moiraine portion of the theory. If Moiraine could still channel, I think she would have managed to find her way out, but I can accept that she is unable to find her way out. It would be interesting to spend some additional time on Thom's portion of this misadventure, if it occurs as such. I wonder if music is a paralyzing agent, because I am more inclined to believe Moiraine is being held. Oh, and this is my final thought, which I should develop into its own theory: if the Finns know so much, maybe they are holding Moiraine because they know Mat is going to come back to them to retreive her, where they hope to get the better deal on their bargain next time around. Whereas, with Lanfear, they might have held her and then traded her away or killed her. If I supported this theory, I would think Moiraine is being held by the Finns precisely because they know Mat is coming back.
2
therobotbadger: 2005-10-05
**RJ doesn't give us useless bits of knowledge EVER.**
So you're saying it's integral to the story that we know what kind of embroidery is on Elayne's bodice or what the street hawkers have on their trays. Not that I'm saying this information isn't good to know for background and fleshing out of the world, but not every word is an essential piece of some grand puzzle.
**Mat pulls out a steel dagger and the snake doesn't seem to care.**
This very fact contradicts a lot of your section on "Iron to bind". How do you go from a quote that says the 'Finn who is dealing with Mat doesn't care about his steel knife to the idea that steel can "bind" them? It doesn't make any sense.
From Wikipedia: "Steel is a metal alloy whose major component is iron, with carbon being the primary alloying material. Carbon acts as a hardening agent, preventing iron atoms, which are naturally arranged in a lattice, from sliding past one another. Varying the amount of carbon and its distribution in the alloy controls qualities such as the hardness, elasticity, ductility, and tensile strength of the resulting steel. Steel with increased carbon content can be made harder and stronger than iron, but is also more brittle. One classical definition is that steels are iron-carbon alloys with up to 1.5 percent carbon by weight; ironically, alloys with higher carbon content than this are known as cast iron.
Currently there are several classes of steels in which carbon is replaced with other alloying materials, and carbon, if present, is undesired. A more recent definition is that steels are iron-based alloys that can be plastically formed (pounded, rolled, etc.)."
Steel isn't iron. It has iron in it, sure. But, then, so do people, and people are still allowed through. A steel Tower of Ghenji would do nothing more to hold the 'Finn inside than a paper Tower. Now, if the Tower were made of some sort of Power-enhanced non-rusting iron...
** “silvery” seems to indicate that they are made of steel**
...or silver.
3
Anubis: 2005-10-05
nice theory except for the metal parts... and i doubt the tower is steel seeing as it shows no signs of wear and tear.
4
Callandor: 2005-10-06
**(I don't want to use terms Aelfinn and Eelfinn because they are harder to type,)**
Nah, they're easy ;) Remembering how to type Moghedien can be a pain though.
**Why grasp Saidar if you aren't going to use it? It becomes a beacon for Lanfear. I personally believes she severs the bond as she is going through the doorway or on the other side.**
Could very well be. However, there is also the chance that Lanfear wasn't "in line" so to say with the doorway, and Moiraine had to embrace saidar for Lanfear to turn toward her so when she jumped at her they fell into the doorway, instead of say back onto the wagon. Or, it could also be that she simply saw it in the Rhuidean rings ;)
But interesting idea, even if I favor your first option.
** So Thom and Mat are doing something that relates to one another at the same time...**
That's the general idea -- I believe most people go further and Mat acts sort of like a distraction so Thom can rescue Moiraine.
**Slayer somehow enters, but I'm not really sure how that works.**
It's assumed he entered. It could be that he left tel'aran'rhiod though, instead.
**I think that RJ dangles it in front of our face again. In many fairy tales, the proper way to do things is to do it three times – Perrin had walked around it twice, I believe Hopper stopped him from walking around one more time, or else he would have been inside!**
Yes, this was said elsewhere in a post at Theoryland, but I don't think people will really care too much ;)
Anyway, it's still a good observation and extremely likely I feel.
**Nobody in Mat or Thom's entourage knows that trick though... or do they? We know that Birgitte knows how to get in, but her thread is tied to Elayne's too closely for some time yet it seems, and perhaps for the rest of the books. Noal (Jain), who seems to have random knowledge, may know the walking around three times is the way to get in, Thom may also know from one of his stories, or Mat might know from a past memory, if he chooses to dig it up. I guess this can be RAFO.**
As you said, Birgitte is clearly out of luck with this one -- she's busy in Caemlyn.
Noal -- possibly, but a long shot I feel.
Mat -- very possible due to his memories, many of which Jordan has said come from people entering the Tower of Ghenjei.
Thom -- he could be, but if he was, I feel it would actually be from Moiraine's letter to him, since I feel it was a code from her to him telling Thom to come get her.
**The tower itself makes the most sense – Mat and Thom are at least somewhere nearer to physical tower than most of the rest of the characters, and their plot string is dangling right now – especially Thom's, and absent Deus ex machina, there is no way to get into the land of the foxes anymore because Moiraine fried it, and Mat can't use the doorway in Tear.**
Truth be told, Perrin is closest, or possibly Elayne. Mat is over a 1000 miles from the Tower of Ghenjei (the comparison is that it's around 900 miles from Aringil to Tear, which is close to the same distance as from Mat's location at the end of Crossroads, to the general location of the Tower of Ghenjei). However, Mat is the one who seems the most likely to be moving quite quickly. The only reason he isn't closer to the Tower, is because he's in the circus which he can pretty much ditch right now.
**I think that Aludra's matches are the best possibility.**
Agreed.
**Aludra is in the entourage, and while some hypothesize it's because she will make cannons (that may also be true), I think this is the reason her matches have been brought up twice previously in the books – when Mat and Thom save her and with Nyneave in TFOH.**
Aludra will almost assuredly be fundamental to the creation of cannons in Randland -- that's very obvious using evidence right now. The matches, aren't much of a trek to do as well ;)
**I think that Thom, as a gleeman is the clue here.**
Well, if it's a prison break, Thom they don't need to be sneaky about it, and Thom can simply bring his harp if need be.
**How do you keep the snakes and foxes trapped in their home? Why with a steel tower, of course.**
Well, who says they're trapped? ;)
**And I think that once they shy away from the fire and are dazed by Thom singing, Mat can slap on a steel necklace (something like an a'dam) and they are trapped, forced to do what you want, tricked according to the deals they made.**
One of the ideas is that they will use leg irons.
**The When? Well that's tricky. It could be right away in KoD or it could be in the middle of book 12.**
I don't think it will be happening in Knife of Dreams. Mat and Thom seem to have enough simply being on the run with Tuon.
**They will walk around it three times and be in a different place (again, how they acquire that knowledge I don't know).**
Might not even be knowledge -- just dumb luck again like with Perrin.
**These spires look like the tower of ghenjei (sort of), and “silvery” seems to indicate that they are made of steel, and remember, RJ doesn't give us useless bits of knowledge EVER.**
Well, the truth of it is, he does sometimes. But, until the event happens, we really can't just throw away stuff and call it "useless" so far.
**At this point, I think Thom and Mat split up, according to Egwene's dream... Mat does one thing while Thom does another.**
Agreed.
**I don't know if Mat would go to the snakes or the foxes, but he will gain something that will attain “the lightning” for his eye.**
I like the idea of him simply getting more knowledge of how to control the Seanchan. But it is misty.
**Therefore, on the otherside of the doorway, Lanfear would have been stilled and “held.” (according to Cyndane's POV) I think that after awhile, she must have died somehow – suicide or another way. That explains why Cyndane is significantly weaker, she was healed by the DO after being stilled, which reduced her power just like Suian and Leane. This theory is contentious and much talked about but that is my thought.**
1. Channelers Heal people of stilling -- not the Dark One.
2. Stilling doesn't carry over from rebirth to rebirth. Could be argumenative for transmigration, but it's implied that it wouldn't be effected.
3. Burning out would possibly account for this -- but burning out isn't known to be Healable, since it is fundamentally different from stilling.
4. It's almost impossible to establish a link between people of the Shadow that know of the weave to Heal stilling.
5. I've argued this many times before, but it's not proven that Lanfear died at all.
**When Mat went into the land of foxes for what seemed like an hour, seven days passed (or else he hung for seven days... doubtful).**
It was a bit more than an hour since Mat went in there soaking wet, and when he arrived at the Eelfinn, he was pretty much completely dry.
But, yes, Mat did not hang for seven days -- he would've died then ;)
**So even if Moiraine was in the land for a year... only a few days would have passed (unless it's like TAR where time flows more complicatedly than that). Basically, I argue she wouldn't have died of starvation, and a year would not have passed like in Randland.**
Which is possible. The land of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn could easily function exactly like tel'aran'rhiod where time is concerned where it's essentially random. Sometimes slower than Randland, sometimes faster, sometimes close to normal.
**She couldn't have channeled for a whole year (I'm not sure of the chronology from the end of TFoH to the end of COT), but since time is different, perhaps she could for a week, or a few days so the foxes wouldn't bother her and hold her like they did Lanfear.**
It's a little over six months from the day Moiraine and Lanfear go through the doorway till the end of Crossroads. Not to mention, there still is more time until she actually is rescued, and that time is of course unknown as of now.
**I wonder if music is a paralyzing agent, because I am more inclined to believe Moiraine is being held.**
Yes, I would agree with Tam. I don't think Moiraine is running around trying to hide from the Finn -- I believe she is being held and Thom and Mat have to get her out, not just show her the exit.
**So you're saying it's integral to the story that we know what kind of embroidery is on Elayne's bodice or what the street hawkers have on their trays. Not that I'm saying this information isn't good to know for background and fleshing out of the world, but not every word is an essential piece of some grand puzzle.**
No, it's not always, but about the dresses, if you notice Moghedien and Cyndane both wear basically the same outfits which are nothing more than Ishamael/Moridin's colors (black and red). They're interesting tidbits, and can be essential. But, yes, not always are, though we really can't judge for an event if they are important or not until it happens.
5
wolfbrother10: 2005-10-06
I like many of the ideas of your theory. Many of them make sense but in the end we just have to RAFO.
I also think what Tamyrlin suggests is possible. The finn might be holding Moiraine because they can read the pattern and know that Mat would be along help rescue her and they want pay back. You know what they say about payback.:))
To adress therobotbadger and Anubis: why can't it be steel because it doesn't rust or tarnish? What is stainless steel if not a steel that does not rust or tarnish? That it the steel may be power-wrought that is a huge possiblitiy, but again RAFO.
6
Traveller: 2005-10-06
I like this theory. *Grins widely*
I also think that Tamyrlin has an extrmely valid point of the Finns holding Moiraine in order for mat to come back and save her.
However, I don't know whether this is possible because one of the snakes or foxes seems rather evil in that they wear a cloak of human skins, and they want to kill Mat as the price, so perhaps they wouldn't want to hold Moiraine to do good.
However, this could hypothetically mean that Moiraine is captured and the finn's are fighting over her! (da da da!) OK, SO not gonna happen, right? Oh well, it might be worth mentioning.
7
Khazhul: 2005-10-06
Just expanding on a few of your ideas here. Maybe Mat and Thom both go but they decide to each go to a seperate area. You propose that you have to walk around 3 times to go in but which direction? One direction is Snakes, the other Foxes? Maybe Mat walks three times one direction, Thom 3 times the other so that one of them will get to Moiraine. This will also coincide with the game saying you had to capture BOTH the snakes and the foxes. Maybe you can't beat them if you only go agianst one of them at a time.
As far as Iron to bind, I don't have my books with me (seems to be common excuse enough for me to use it) but could someone look it up and see if it say just iron or 'tools of iron' or 'iron tools'. I thought I remembered tools being in there too. No theory myself on this, just offering it up for conjecture.
8
Lauric: 2005-10-06
I would tend to believe she's being held by the Finn more than 'hiding' from them behind woven fire.
I completely agree on the bond passing, that makes more sense to me than stilling.
Strength in the power is determined by the body, not by the soul. The soul determines only whether the person will be able to channel at all. This was stated by Robert Jordan in an interview (Though I never understood the lack of mention by 'gars about this fact...might need to remember to ask RJ that one)
Quick rant I thought about while reading this post & thinking about that same RJ interview...
(Rant:Begin) RJ was asked if the Finnland(s) [if they are actually 2 different worlds] were outside of the pattern or if they were mirror worlds. RJ Said that they were 'parrallel' worlds that existed in the Wheel of Time. I took this at face value at first to mean that they existed in sync with Randland, but as I look closer... "IN the Wheel...". Maybe these two worlds actually exist as part of, or together form, the Wheel, which explains how the Finn can see the past/future (read the pattern). Perhaps they are part OF the OP. Possible? Thoughts?(Rant:End)
9
JakOShadows: 2005-10-06
I agree with on you everything except once you start talking about how the rescue Moirane. Why would Mat split up from Thom, because them being in a dangerous place would not lend itself to that? Perhaps unwilling, but not the other way around. And as for getting into the tower of genjie, interesting though, but it just seems to simple. Just because Perrin walked around the tower twice doesn't mean he has to walk around three. And as for all the details, they are possible, but they are based off a basic nursery rhyme from a song. While some of it might be correct, there is no way to prove it or disprove. So it comes down to opinion. I do agree that Thom might do a song or something. And that fire sticks is the obvious solution there. But for the iron thing, I don't know where or how they'll even get that, let alone know how it will be used. And for Mat's eye, why would he want the lightning thing or infinite knowledge of the Seanchan. He would either want to know why he has to marry the daughter of the nine moons and how to do it, or he would want his memories removed which I don't think would happen. Although losing his could happen by him losing his temper with the finns somehow, there isn't much evidence for it. And as for freeing Moirane, it seems more likely that the door cannot be opened from the inside, but when Thom and Mat come in she can escape. The only thing I don't like about your theory is it seems like your trying to fit stuff to the evidence, rather than the other way around. But it is an inherint difficulty with something like this. Good job.
10
haertchen: 2005-10-06
I've always been surprised about the bit where the snake ignores the knife (Matt, the rules, etc.). But I'm not sure that actually means anything. I mean, the snakes don't actually try to hang him, do they? They just toss him out without any dignity, but essentially unharmed.
Is it possible (and I'm just throwing this out there) that the Finn's, not being human, will only keep their end of the covenant if you cheat? They have the rules, but in order to come out alive, you have to break them? In this (frankly bizarre) explanation (but note that it matches the game) the Finns always ignore the violations and let you through in the Ter'angreal. (This is all using the assumption that the term "iron" stretches to cover the various forms of steel, which seems at least partly appropriate given that iron is the primary component of steel.)
11
therobotbadger: 2005-10-06
**To adress therobotbadger and Anubis: why can't it be steel because it doesn't rust or tarnish?**
The Tower of Ghenjei could certainly be made of steel. I have no problem with the fact that, as Domon says, the Tower is, "Shining steel, by the look and feel of it, but no a spot of rust." My problem with a steel Tower lies in this quote from egerrish's theory:
"How do you keep the snakes and foxes trapped in their home? Why with a steel tower, of course."
This line assumes that the purpose or function of the Tower of Ghenjei is to hold the 'Finn either in their world or out of ours, to which I replied that a Tower made of steel wouldn't perform that function.
**As far as Iron to bind, I don't have my books with me (seems to be common excuse enough for me to use it) but could someone look it up and see if it say just iron or 'tools of iron' or 'iron tools'. I thought I remembered tools being in there too.**
There's no real need for this first quote, I just want it for completeness.
LoC, Ch 33 "Courage to Strengthen", p456 HC
" 'Well,' Olver muttered, 'we almost won. Another game, Mat?' Not waiting for an answer, he made the sign that opened that game, a triangle and then a wavy line through it, then chanted the words. ' "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind." ' "
Mat's visit to the Aelfinn:
tSR, Ch 15 "Into the Doorway", p174 HC
" 'A long time, yet the seekers come again for answers. The questioners come once more.' A shape moved, back among the columns; a man, Mat thought. 'Good, You have brought no lamps, no torches, as the agreement was, and is, and ever will be. You have no iron? No instruments of music?'
[Paragraph of physical description omitted]
'Iron. Instruments of music. You have none?' "
Mat's visit to the Eelfinn:
tSR, Ch 24 "Rhuidean", p279 HC
" 'A very long time,' he said, straightening. His voice was rough, almost a growl. 'Do you abide by the treaties and agreements? Do you carry iron, or instruments of music, or devices for making light?' "
There's nothing in these "agreements" about the form the iron takes, not from the questions the 'Finn ask Mat, anyway.
12
Traveller: 2005-10-07
Khazul:
"Good. You have brought no lamps, no torches, as the agreement was, and is, and ever wiull be. You have no iron? No instruments of music?"
This is from the 1st time Mat enters the doorway- no tools.
" Do you abide by the treatise and agreements? Do you carry iron, or instruments of music or devices for making light?"
This is from the 2nd time Mat enters, and there are no references to tools of iron as far as I can see in other places. I think that also if there were, it wouldn't really make a difference, because they both refer to means of making light like torches, but it is light they are afraid of (rand's fiery sword), so even if they said iron tools, it could still be iron that they are afraid of.
13
Traveller: 2005-10-07
HEY! I have just thought of something whilst reading a passage from LoC:
"Not until he had passed everyone through the the gateway to the chamber in Cairhien and let the hole close, cutting his sense of Alanna to that vague impression of somewhere west, not until then did Lews Therin seem to go away."
Rand is bonded to Alanna, and Moiraine is bonded to Lan, so this is a very accurate parallel in that the bond is the same.
I propose that when a bonded person steps through a gateway or doorway ter'angreal, it is as if they have a physical bond (shall we say string at the moment, too simplify) to the place where their partner is. As long as that doorway/gateway is open, the string remains leading through that doorway to their partner which is why Rand can still feel Alanna near him while he is in Cairhien and she in Caemlyn, and why Lan can still feel Moiraine usually when she goes/went throught the doorway the 1st time. However, when the door/gateway closes, the string is cut off. For Rand, this doesn't really make a difference because it snaps back to where he is at the time, but Moiraine is in a different world, so it is broken.
This could also be the reason that bonding makes it easier to keep someone alive- they actually have a string holding them to the real world where their partner is.
Before now, I always thougth it made more sense for Moiraine to have severed it with the OP, but I think that this quote makes it very plausible for the doorway melting to severe the bond.
14
Ron al Doskam: 2005-10-08
Just a thought.
When entered by Mat the first time he came out unharmed. He was then carrying his knives (in Tear)
The second time he entered, he was unarmed. (in Rhuidean).
So that can imply that the knives did make a difference, Mat cheated.
15
Jahar Narishma: 2005-10-09
I don't believe that Mat's knives helped him the first time, the 'Finn didn't seem to care. What hurt him the second time was his lack of knowledge of the rules.
The fact that the 'Finn didn't seem to care about Mat's knives implies that steel is not an issue for them.
I also think that we're taking the rhyme too literally. I don't think that they need those specific objects, but people who represent those objects. Specifically, I think they're looking for four specific people to go after Moiraine, two to each area as in the game.
Courage could be either Mat or Birgitte.
Iron implies Perrin.
Fire implies either Mat or Aludra.
Music implies Thom.
As for how Mat's eye relates, we all know that he has a habit of speaking without thinking, and that this has already gotten him in trouble with the 'Finn before. I'm willing to bet that he says something along the lines of "I'd bet/give my right eye" to the 'Finn, to which they immediately agree, before Mat realizes what he's said.
Part of the problem, of course, is that our lack of knowledge regarding Lanfear/Cyndane and her ordeal with the 'Finn complicates any predictions about what happened to Moiraine or how to rescue her.
16
Khazhul: 2005-10-10
First I would like to thank you all for the quotes, wasn't sure why I was thinking there was tools involved with the iron but hey it happens ;)
What I wanted to add was I think we may be getting confused on the difference between going to Finnland through the doorways and going through the tower. My theory or understanding of this as of now is that you don't need to 'cheat' when you enter there through a doorway. The doorways are covered under the agreements made of old. The tower, however, makes you fair game. Lanfear and Moiraine were/are held because the doorway was destroyed and so was the agreement. They basically had no way to send them back nor any need to.
17
haertchen: 2005-10-10
Jahar Mashima: In light of the very specific questions asked by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn when Matt entered the ter'angreal, it seems very likely that the forbidden things are literal. Bringing half the world with them when they go seems like serious overkill. Bringing what essentially amounts to weaponry is only common sense.
18
therobotbadger: 2005-10-10
**I also think that we're taking the rhyme too literally. I don't think that they need those specific objects, but people who represent those objects.**
My belief that actual objects will be necessary is less from the game's rhyme and more from the questions asked by the 'Finn. They didn't ask Mat, "Hey, do you have a personality that could be evocative of iron?" They asked him, "Did you bring any actual, physical iron with you?" Also, the way they shied away from Rand's glowing Power sword implies a physical vulnerability to light.
**My theory or understanding of this as of now is that you don't need to 'cheat' when you enter there through a doorway. The doorways are covered under the agreements made of old.**
I had never thought of this, and I like it. Under this idea, it seems that the game of Snakes and Foxes is less an analogy to travelling-through-the-doorway dealings and more about entering-the-Tower dealings. The only problem I have is sort of a semantic one: the only way to win against the 'Finn is to "cheat", yes? But to cheat means that there must be rules that are broken. If there are no rules of action when entering through the Tower of Ghenjei, does this mean that there is no way to win when entering that way?
19
JakOShadows: 2005-10-10
therobotbadger: You bring up an interesting point there. Maybe that's where Mat's eye comes in. They bring in those things, then the finns want to make a deal because they can't defeat them. So to get Moraine, they require a payment, and Mat loses control and says something like "Well do you want my bloody eye?," and loses an eye. But that allows to go free. So it wouldn't be considered a win. Just breaking even.
20
Prince of the Nine Moons: 2005-10-15
I really like the theory, except for the part where you say that Moiraine would use saidar to tie off fire, because if she could do that and hold it for so long, I think she would be able to escape. I think it is more likely that the A/E have some sort of object like Mat's medallion to block the OP, at least where she is. I don't know if they had it when Rand was with them, or maybe they did. It doesn't really matter though.
21
egerrish: 2006-03-26
Well clearly I was wrong and right in certain portions of the theory. but at least we know know for a certain that we are heading to the tower, ladies and gentlemen!
I'm interested to see the role that Noal takes in this adventure -- I thought the game meant that only two people went inside, but I was wrong. I think if Jordan were to finally kill off a "good" character (please oh please) it could be Noal. It would be like killing Ensign Ricky (Family guy reference).
As far as people saying "if she could channel, she could escape..." that might be true, but remember that she might have seen her own death if she tried to escape alone.
However, I have to say the luring Mat back into the world is a very convenient and simple solution to the puzzle, and give that credit as a possible solution. I can't wait to RAFO!