Tamyrlin: 2003-01-18

So you are suggesting that the body she inhabits now is a body that the DO placed her soul into after she escaped from the finns, and was afterwards killed by someone else? Isn't more likely to believe that Lanfear was killed by the finns? We haven't seen Ishamael kill any of the Forsaken. Why wouldn't he just do to Lanfear what he did to Moghedien? Why the new body? I don't think Moridin would have killed her. The DO calls her to Shayol Ghul, Shaidar Haran prevents her from channeling, and Ishy "leashes" her (for lack of a better word).

Tigraine: 2003-01-19

Don't forget. Any request or question touching the subject of the Shadow has dire consequences according to Moiraine, who seems knowledgeable about the *finn by the way she talks near the beginning of tSR. Perhaps Lanfear, being Forsaken, was killed because of her link to the Shadow or a question that she asked pertaining to it. Then, after the Great Lord recycled her into Cyndane, he had her mindtrapped and given to Moridin.

However, she was probably stilled during her fall through the redstone doorway due to the fact that Moiraine pulled the angreal from her as they went through, so she probably burned herself out.

Also, as we've seen in Salidar, when a woman Heals a woman, she is only given partial strength in the One Power, but when opposite sexes Heal each other, they return to full strength. This means that Lanfear was probably Healed by another woman (Moghedien maybe?) since she is weaker than normal in WH.

That's my theory. Then again, it's not really that original.

migster: 2003-01-19

Some thoughts on the Daughter of Night...

Somthing curious about Lanfear/Cyndane is that we have seen only two reasons for a change in the amount of saidar that can be handled by a female.

1) They have been stilled and then healed resulting in a reduction in power.

2) They grow stronger as they mature. Cyndane is a young girl and maybe physically not ready to channel at Lanfear's level.

So, which is it?

a) Lanfear was stilled by the abrupt crash through the red doorway and then healed and killed or just killed and healed later (by the D.O.?)?

b) Cyndane as the vessel for that soul that was Lanfear is not old enough/hasn't worked with the power long enough, to have come to her full power.

OR EVEN

c) The 'finns did something to reduce her ability.

I like "a)" because the 'gars did not experience a lessening in power even though they were new to the bodies. and because we have seen no evidence of the 'finns having that kind of ability. Not that they couldn't but there is no hint or foreshadowing that indicates anything of the sort.

So it is my contention that Lanfear was stilled/killed/healed in some order.

Anubis: 2003-01-19

Elder, I completely agree with you, i have been advocating the idea that lanfear was not killed by the finns for a while now.

Tamrylin: this is why i think moridin killed lanfear. Think back to the first three books. The two clearly had a power struggle going on "I serve the Great Lord and no other". Now all of the sudden, ishey, i mean moridin, is ordering her around like a servant and she isnt giving him any crap about it. True she was fitted with a soul box thingy, but before that she was obviously made to submit. The shadow is perfectly willing to kill those that fail or betray. Lanfear clearly wanted to betray the DO. Remember the whole statue conversation? So ishy kills her, probably in some horribly obscene way. But she is still a valuable asset, so they bring her back and "fix" her. Not alot of evidence for this except the foreshadowing in the first few books, but it fits.

Anubis: 2003-01-19

The difference between moggy and lanfear is that moggy did not betray the DO. Thus she did not recieve as severe punishment. I seem to recall moggy and lanfear having similar reactions to the prescence of shaidar haran. Also, dashivas thoughts point to moridin killing lanfear. He thinks that if he fled moridin would find him and kill him. He is sure that is what will happen. so if he thinks that moridin is capable of killing a chosen, then i would have to agree with him.

Tamyrlin: 2003-01-19

No. Why is there an assumption that Lanfear is a traitor? And how can you say that Moggy isn't or wasn't? Moggy was as obsessed with Nynaeve as Lanfear was with Rand. And actually Lanfear and Ishy were working together on the DO's plans while Moggy was just sitting back doing nothing. The DO encourages the Forsaken to scheme and Lanfear was doing a great job. She was no worse than any of the others.

Callandor: 2003-01-19

The AOLers have NO idea that you can heal servering. So, if a person like Moirdin servered her from the Source, why would he? It would be wasting a Forsaken in his mind because he has no idea that she could be healed, much less the fact that it would take a man to bring her back to full strength.

So, did the DO cure her if Lanfear was servered or stilled? Well... could he do it? Everybody says that hes the Lord of the Grave, I actually think this is a overspecualation by common people because so far we have only see the DO being back Forsaken with the cords (the whole ghosts thing is dismissed in my mind due to WAY too little information), but would being Lord of the Grave extend his abilities to bring back a Forsaken? Even to a lesser power?

I don't think that Lanfear was stilled now. I'm starting to lean more to the Finn doing something to her. But hey, think what you want.

Elder Haman: 2003-01-20

It appears simpler to assume that Lanfear was killed by the 'finns, but I think this is a mistake. Everyone seems to view the 'finns as a wildcard whose action are unpredictible. However, from several sources it should be clear that the 'finns opperate under rules. To us (and Mat) the 'finns appear unpredicable because we don't know the rules they opperate under. The 'finns are a wildcard but predictably if we can understand the rules they operate under.

If the 'finns killed people all the time, why would the AofL Aes Sedai create a portal to their world? I think the 'finns are safe if you follow the rules- or if you cheat. If you violate the rules in their favor though- you better hope you've got a spare life to trade.

Tigraine- Why would losing an angreal cause Lanfear to burn herself out? (It would have to be burnt out, not stilled). Also, can burnt out Aes Sedai be healed? Setalle Anan has differant symptoms from Suian and Leane.

I agree Anubis, that's why I suspect Moridin, but it could easily have been someone else, and Tamyrlin makes some good points against Moridin...

However, we do know that Lanfear planned to betray the Dark One. We also know the Dark One knows it too. (Didn't Moridin tell Cyndane that in Winter's Heart?)

BTW, I found an obsure reference to the 'finns in TDR pg 571. Egwene is reading some books including "the humorous tales of Aleria Elffin." Does anyone have any ideas that could make this knowlege valuable?

Anubis: 2003-01-20

there is plenty of indication that lanfear is a traitor. she only wants power. she probably signed up with the dark one in the first place to get it. now she wants the statues so she can challange and displace the dark one and the creator. if that isnt traitorism then i dont know what is. also secret communications with rand clearly outside the dark ones plans and wishes. she was playing her own game and thus she was punished.

Tigraine: 2003-01-21

The Forsaken -didn't- know about Healing the Severed in past books, but remember... we have Halima in Egwene's camp and we had Moghedien in Salidar around the time of Logain's healing. Heck, Logain was freed by Halima, so she/he definitely knows about Healing the Severed. I would imagine that the Chosen would not have such a hard time discovering the hows of Healing now that they know about it...

jason wolfbrother: 2003-01-21

Logain was not freed by Halima. Egwene freed Logain after he told her he would go and join Rand. Halima was trying to have the Hall kill Logain.

Elder Haman: 2003-01-21

Also, this does not address the issue of the difference between stilling and being burned out. (Stilling can be healed, but those burnt out might not).

Tigraine: 2003-01-22

I would imagine that it can be, but by an altered version of the current weave, perhaps. We know that Lews Therin killed himself by massive overdrawing of saidin as stated by Jordan, and yet Rand can channel, so it seems that it's not permanent, although there is the factor of three thousand years of death to account for between Lews and Rand. The Wheel very well could simply restore the ability in every respinning of a person's soul to maintain balance.

Callandor: 2003-01-22

I think that the pattern would replace it. And plus I dont really think that channeling would effect the soul that made Rand into LTT reborn. So the fact that LTT killed himself by ODing on the power doesnt make a difference to Rand in my mind.

As for healing people who have been burned out and still alive.... I think it would be possible to heal them with the current weave just with maybe a little alteration. Maybe if Nyneave and Flinn got together they could come up with something or maybe link by themselves and try it.

silverwolf: 2003-01-25

Healing someone who has been burnt out might be more difficult than most people seem to believe. The term "severing" describes a "cut" in the channeler's link to the source that allows him or her to channel. "Burned out" seems to indicate that the link was burned away, not cut. Think of a nylon rope; if it gets cut, you can always fuse it back together. If it is burned to a crisp, then there's nothing you can do about it.

Anyway, there's no way to be sure until someone gets burned out and Nynaeve of Flinn tries to heal him/her.

silverwolf: 2003-01-25

Since the destruction of the doorway cut off Moiraine's warder-bond to Lan, wouldn't it (probably) cut off Lanfear's black cords that tie her to the DO? That makes it seem a bit unlikely that the finns killed her, since the DO can't bring her back w/out the cords (I know that's still being debated, but I'm pretty sure that the black cords are what alows the DO to stuff the forsaken into new bodies). If that's the case, Lanfear could have been sent back by the finns and killed by the DO for allowing herself to be cut off from him (of course, he had to "reattach" the cords to her before he killed her). Since Lanfear is the first case of a woman being stuffed into a new body, we have no idea how that could affect her ability to channel; for all we know, merely being killed could have reduced her ability to what she has as Cyndane.

Anubis: 2003-02-28

Lanfear says that Alivia is stronger then she was before the finns held her. Implying that it was somthing the finns did that weakened her and also implying that they did not kill her. i still say moridin did it, just cause it fits with their relationship suddenly changing.

Sinnamoon: 2003-03-14

Just curious... What if its the soul trap that lowered her power in the source? Say the finns decided that her deal wasnt good enough gave her the soul trap (thus reducing her power) and then gave it to the one person who would make her suffer most... moridin a person she has had prior conflicts with. btw we dont know she died and we dont know the DO gave her her new body.. what if that was one of her wishs in a hope to seperate herself from the DO? And mebbie like morraines worder bond being broken so was her tie to the DO? I dunno its a lot of questions with no answers and stuff but mebbie RJ will help us out with the next book *prays to the creator* Say.. is the creator a guy or a girl :p

Anubis: 2003-03-18

i dont think it was the soul trap. moggy has one and didnt mention in thoughts or words that that would be a consequence.

spearmaiden: 2003-07-09

Just general responses to various comments above --

1) I don't think Lanfear's diminished power is a result of the mindtrap, or else we would have heard that Moggy was also significantly weaker, as well.

2)Moggy could not have healed Lanfear if Lanfear had been stilled. When Moggy was captive in Salidar, we learn pretty quickly that she really knows nothing about healing whatsoever. One of the other Forsaken could have puzzled it out (although I doubt it), but not Moggy.

3)Asmodean pretty much tells Rand flat out in Rhuidean in tSR that by severing the black cord, all Rand did was make Asmodean as vulnerable to the taint as any other man. I'm not sure why the nature of the black cords is still being disputed, when it's stated as plainly as that (can't give page reference, but I just listened to it on tape (unabridged version) and it's pretty clear.

juitzhead: 2003-07-09

spearmaiden:

"Asmodean pretty much tells Rand flat out in Rhuidean in tSR that by severing the black cord, all Rand did was make Asmodean as vulnerable to the taint as any other man. "

can you please provide the exact quote. this has been an issue in the debate over the DO's ability to transmigrate. It would really help if you could (or anyone else for that matter that has the books handy).

Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-09

If Lanfear made a deal with the Finns, why didn't Moiraine? Did Lanfear kill her, or did the Finns? Was Moiraine also only held? If so, why let Lanfear free, but not Moiraine?

My personal feeling is either Lanfear died going through the portal (absolving Finns of guilt!) and was resurrected as Cyndane and given her Last Chance, or she was held, along with Moiraine, until Moridin cut a deal for her freedom, such as it is. Alternately, Moridin could have killed her to free her, if he was unable to negotiate or outfox the Finns. I like the last possibility especially. It allows for the return of moiraine, which many believe is imminent, explains the drop in power (the finns were sucking her dry), and the 'held' comment. Oh yeah, it also means Moridin was back earlier than we saw him, early enough to kill Asmodean ;)

rubbernilly: 2003-07-10

Pet theory alert:

Lanfear, aka Mierin, was artificially enhanced to be extra powerful while living the lifetime of Mierin (which included her time up to the Finn got her). Dead and now reincarnated, she has returned to her normal, if quiet high, potential. See the theory "Lanfear was artificially enhanced" for more discussion of this.

Pet theory alert II:

Moiraine has been stilled. It's the only thing that makes sense when you stack up the facts that:

1) Rand was able to channel while in Finnland

2) Rand, channeling, was able to find his way out even though the Finn wanted otherwise (what they wanted is a matter of opinion - to hold him, extract more memories, hurt him, kill him... it doesn't matter, we just know that he needed his sword of Fire to protect himself and ward them off)

3) Moiraine, if she were able to channel, could similarly find her way out of Finnland

4) Elayne intends to have Rand's bond passed to her, and if this entailed Rand being affected the way Lan was affected by Moiraine's bond passing to Myrelle, she would not do it; therefore, Lan's desire for vengeance and battle is due to either Moiraine's death, Moiraine being severed, or the gateway melting

5) We assume Moiraine to be alive since we expect her to be rescued, and there is no evidence that the gateway melting would have broken Lan's bond - not as much evidence as there is that Moiraine being severed would have done just that.

Therefore, I think Moiraine was severed (and Lanfear, too). Lanfear was killed eventually, but Moiraine is still being held. Perhaps she knows enough to keep her mouth shut and not say anything, or perhaps she knows even *more* and knows that these Finn are waiting for an agreement, for a price to be set, and she is smart enough not to give one. She would be something of a willing prisoner, then. She can't fight her way out, but she is not going to take the way out like what Mat did (getting himself deadified).

Friar: 2003-07-10

Has anyone considered the posibility that certain individuales like "The hand of the Dark" has the ability to stop the chosen from drawing on the source. If we postulate a little further then does there not exist a restriction of use. We know that Lanfear had her own plots that were not allways in line with DO. Perhaps it is the DO that has put in this restriction.

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-10

TSR page 976 Asmodean to Rand after Lanfear has just left them in Rhuidean after their struggle with the Choedan Kal

"It was my link to the Great Lord that allowed me to touch saidin without going mad" "All you have done is make me as vulnerable as you."

There you go the Asmo quote

Tamyrlin: 2003-07-10

Later, Asmodean thinks about losing his immortality. His thoughts betray his words of bravado to Rand, trying to minimize the impact of what Rand has done. This is really what counts:

TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 56 - Glowing Embers

Idly-but with a shiver, too-be wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man. He did not think so. Immortality was gone. That was a gift of the Great Lord; he used that name in his head, whatever al'Thor demanded on his tongue. That was proof enough that he was himself. Immortality gone- he knew it must be imagination, yet sometimes he thought he could feel time dragging at him, pulling him toward a grave he had never thought to meet and nawing the little of saidin he could was like drinking sewage.

perrinshammer: 2003-07-10

Just a thought here, there's a theory that lanfear artificially enhanced both her power and beauty. Maybe Cyndane is how lanfear originally looked before the enhancement and the price of her release was the ellimination of both enhancements.

spearmaiden: 2003-07-10

Thanks for looking up that quote, Shadow Bane. My books are at home but my Internet access not, so it's hard for me to look stuff up.

Tamyrlin, I had always thought Asmodean's loss of immortality was just punishment because the DO knew he was a traitor, I had never associated it with the Black Cords before. However, now that you point that out, it makes a lot of sense that he lost that when the Cord was cut. Thank you.

However, I still disagree with silverwolf, who said Lanfear's Cord was cut and then went into a complicated process of it getting reattatched before she could be brought back. Ishy was brought back even after his Cord was severed, right?

I also disagree with the whole idea that her cord COULD have been severed in such a simple way, because then the Forsaken would all have to do really annoying things like check to make sure their darn Cords were out of the way every time they closed a Gateway, for example, at least when Skimming and in TAR.

Tamyrlin: 2003-07-10

Spearmaiden, the reason, I believe, that Ishy was able to be transmigrated has to do with where the battles between Rand and Ishy took place when Rand cut his cord. This occurs twice, both time it happens in T'A'R. Asmodean's cutting occurs outside of T'A'R. When we see Rand pull out of T'A'R, when Ishamael tries to hurt him in his dreams, we notice that Rand goes away slightly unscathed, but sometimes he is hurt. In the same way, I believe that Ishy could have been pulling away from T'A'R when Rand cuts his cord, and the actually cutting doesn't take place except for in T'A'R...anyway, that is how I believe Jordan would make the exception for Ishamael. If Ishamael's cord had been cut in the real world, then my theory couldn't hold water.

rubbernilly: 2003-07-11

Perrinshammer -

Again, my pet theory is that her power was enhanced. However, her current looks (ie, Cyndane) are not the way she looked originally.

With Aginor and Balthamel, they were told that their new bodies were the best that could be found along the blight. So there's no reason that Lanfear's resurrection would be any different... unless she never died and you are saying that her artificial change in her appearance was removed directly or indirectly by the Finn.

But I'd still disagree with you, because we've seen the way she looks in truth:

At one point, she taunts Rand, asking if he wants to see what she really looks like. When she drops her disguise, Rand's POV comments that she was even *more* beautiful, if that were possible, softer and more mature, ripened.

Now, I have always thought that this was RJ's tip of the hat to his wife, who cannot be all that young... as if he is saying, "No dear, I wasn't looking at that UNC sorority calendar... And in fact... you see how the most beautiful woman in all of the world is not so beautiful as she is when she has some age, some maturity to her..."

Well, regardless of what was going on in the Jordan household, the description we get of Lanfear without her MoM sounds nothing like Cyndane. It sounds more like what Lanfear would be if she let herself age (ie, her MoM is simply of a younger version of herself).

perrinshammer: 2003-07-11

rubbernilly -

I believe the instance you where referring to is when Lanfear was disguised as Selene and when she removed the MoM he sees her as she looks with the enhancements. I maybe be wrong, i don't have the books with me, an if I am wrong please supply the page #'s and quote to show it.

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-11

uh rubbernilly. lanfear's MoM is a younger version of her normal state but at that time her normal state was still enhanced. Cyndane would be the original Meirin without any enhancements. So Cyndane could logically be Meirin.

rubbernilly: 2003-07-12

perrinshammer -

The identity of Selene may have been involved, but I remember it as Lanfear looking like Lanfear and then looking like an older version of herself.

Shadow Bane -

I understand that cyndane could still be what Mierin originally looked like. And I say "originally" because the other Forsaken have seen cyndane and did not recognize her. Therefore, if Mierin altered her appearance, it had to be before she came to the tower.

Also, if cyndane=mierin w/o a mask, then you are saying that Lanfear did *not* die on the other side, since we have an established method of reincarnation (where the DO uses 'the best bodies that could be found along the blight').

However, I tend to think that even if the incident with Rand - where she reveals her older self - is a revelation of how she looks post-alteration, cyndane is not what she looked like pre-alteration. That's just my opinion. Yes, it is possible that cyndane *could be* what mierin looked like before being upgraded, but I don't think that is the case.

...on the other hand, it would give RJ the start on tying up a Lanfear plot line. If cyndane does look like what mierin looks like without *any* MoM, then we are one step down the path of figuring out how Lanfear became artificially enhanced - both in the Power and in physical appearance.

rubbernilly: 2003-07-14

Let me explain my problem with the theory that cyndane = mierin before enhancement.

This theory is based on the fact that she has had her power reduced to the level she would normally be at, the level she was at before she became artificially enhanced. Therefore, to my thinking, the mechanism of her change back to her original strength in the power is that she died on the other side of the gate and was resurrected by the Dark One. Since we have an established method for reincarnation, we know Lanfear would have received a new body.

The catalyst for the reduction in beauty and the reduction in strength in the power is the same, so, to my mind, she had to die to look like she does. Death means reincarnation means a new body.

Now you could argue that the method of reduction was not death but something that the Finn did to her, or something that the DO did to her, but I think it's simpler just to say that she died and was reincarnated.

Shadow Bane: 2003-07-14

Rubbernilly you make a good point and i agree (now). However I was thinking about this topic and a question arose-

What would Moiraine and Lanfear wish for on the other side of the doorway?

any ideas? maybe a connection to Cydane?

rubbernilly: 2003-07-14

Pet theory alert -

I tend to think that Lanfear already used up her 'wishes' with the Finn. I think she went through in the first place to get her strength in the OP and her beauty increased. Her trip through with Moiraine would have been her second trip then, yes, but I posit that she only went through the gate because Moiraine was in contact with her and pulling her in and Moiraine had not taken her first trip through the portal yet.

So, to my thinking, Lanfear did not have any wishes left to spend when she went through with Moiraine.

Moiraine, OTOH, requires more thought. There are at least two scenarios where she wouldn't have wished for anything:

1) She doesn't know the mechanics of these Finn, but knows enough to keep her mouth shut and make no requests.

2) She *does* know the mechanics, but refuses to set or agree to a price for having her wishes granted. In this case, she is something of a willing prisoner in Finnland.

If she *did* wish for something... I'd say she'd wish for

1) The ability to channel again (I believe that she's been stilled)

2) Power or an item that will help Rand defeat the DO at TG

3) To be returned to Randland and capable of counseling Rand again

We'll have to see. If Moiraine is not rescued in the next book, I CANNOT see the series ending in only one more book after that. I think she'll be rescued in the next book.

juitzhead: 2003-07-14

rubbernilly, have you joined SDog's "Lanfear was Artificial" faction?

-----

you said:

If she *did* wish for something... I'd say she'd wish for

1) The ability to channel again (I believe that she's been stilled)

2) Power or an item that will help Rand defeat the DO at TG

3) To be returned to Randland and capable of counseling Rand again "

-----

1. I would agree.

2. Doesnt need it. Has the Choedan Kal. Although she doesnt know that, but she knows he has Callandor.

3. Would have done it if she could.

I personally dont think Moraine is a willing prisioner. There is no advantage that i can see for her to be held by them. By refusing make the wishes or pay the price because she knows Thom will rescue her is just selfish. Then again, the price might be her life.

I think, much like Lanfear, she is being held against her will.

Perhaps the price Lanfear paid was akin to Mat and paid with her life?

1. She asks for the same 3 wishes she would have asked for if the she was made artificially. Although i cannot see her getting 2 sets of wishes.

2. Paid the price and died

3. Is transmigratted into a new body in her 'orginal' channeling capacity state, hence, losing her wishes b/c the DO cannot enhance her like the Finn.

Korell: 2003-07-18

How could Lanfear have the Choedan call since rand has both and the womans is a pile of metal now....unless of course you mean the ENTIER staute on Tremalking since she is with the Seanchan in which case i compleatly agree heh sorry just thought of that after i started writing good thought though....just thought of somthing what if the damne formed a circle including the power from the chodean call? kaboom? interesting thought

Than: 2003-08-23

moggy couldnt have healed lanfear because she wasnt present to see the weaves and none of the forsaken know how to heal a severing they all think it cant be done moggy would have tried to learn but she was not present for any of the 3 healings NONE of the forsaken can heal a severing NONE

Callandor: 2003-08-24

Moridin at least knows it is possible, if not the weaves.

**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving

He [Moridin] was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply—melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?**

Could they know from a BA Yellow sister? Of course. Do they? Who knows.

rubbernilly: 2003-08-25

Juitz -

I think the events regarding going through the gateway go something like this:

*Moiraine falls through the gate

...Lanfear has already been through once, but since Moiraine is going through, she is pulled in, as well.

...on her previous visit, as Mierin, she had not yet turned herself to the Shadow, and used her wishes on increasing her power and beauty.

...now, as one of the Forsaken, she is in danger of being killed by the Finn.

*Moiraine and Lanfear are both stilled going through the gate

*The Finn realize who Lanfear is, and kill her

...being dead, Lanfear's soul returns to her pre-enhancement power level

...when the DO reincarnates her as Cyndane, she is at this pre-enhanced (natural) level

*Moiraine is still held on the other side, probably still severed

Here's an interesting thought... does anyone have a timeline of how long Moiraine has been a prisoner? Are we talking months? It does not seem like that long, though it does date to before the introduction of Cadsuane and the whole incident at Dumai's Wells. How much book time has passed since Moiraine disappeared?

Callandor: 2003-08-25

Lanfear was pushed into the doorway and then Moiraine fell through. Lanfear went in first.

rubbernilly: 2003-08-25

Just the same, Callandor, they were in contact when they went through. I still posit that it was Moiraine's trip through the gateway that pulled Lanfear along.

Min Farshaw: 2003-08-25

I was just reading through the replies, and I started thinking.

Maybe the decrease in channeling ability is a result of her imprisonment with the 'Finns. Bad bartering - peeved them off a bit too much or some such.

Or maybe it's a warning from the DO himself. Something happened in the 'Finns, she got a brand new body.... but as a result she got less power and a warning.... in the form of her name.

Vander: 2003-10-03

few things. the cords have nothing to do w/ the ability of the DO to ressurect the forsaken. it may mean that they are immortal anymore, but as immortals, it meant that the bodies they had wouldnt age or die of old age etc, that had nothing to do w/ whether they could be ressurected or not. while ishy may have been in TAR when his cord was cut, Aginor wasnt, and aginor WAS ressurected, so it must be possible.

i think that if any of the forsaken had even a chance of puzzling out how to heal stilling, itd be Semmy, wasnt she the healer before?

Im pretty sure that Cyndane is a result of ressurection by the DO, not by anything the Finns did. just the meaning of the name sounds like somn the DO would do.

the severing of the bond w/ lan was a result either of Moraine being stilled, or, _I_ think it was a result of the meltdown of the doorway severing the connection between the 2 "dimentions" so the bond was cut. this wouldnt have cut Lanfears cord to the DO the same way because the DO is in ALL the alternative worlds, not just Randland.

Tamyrlin: 2003-10-03

Vander...you haven't cited any proof to suggest that transmigration is possible without being "connected" to the DO. Also, Aginor was not cut off. He burned himself out, killing himself. Finally, Rand, through all of his contact with the Forsaken, believes that the Forsaken allow the DO to connect himself to them. Rahvin calls his connection, the cord/s, a symbol of his bonds and oaths with the DO, and so far only the Forsaken have been transmigrated. Accordingly, it is obvious to many of us that the DO must be "connected" to the soul of an individual that he desires to transmigrate, the old "selling your soul to the devil" bit. The only suggestion of proof against the theory is Ishamael's cut cord and transmigration, which again can be explained by where the cutting occurred. I swear, RJ needs to come to a signing near Chicago so I can personally ask him some of these questions.

EvilJawa101: 2003-11-15

Regarding lanfear's death and the whole portal thingy. First, if Moiraine and Lanfear fell throught at the same time same place, and touching. I see no reason they couldn't have some out at the same place. Now, assuming that, Lanfear would have probably been stilled, because of holding the power while going through the Ter'angreal. So, why could't Moiraine have killed her? Moiraine with the power vs. Lanfear without. An easy kill. While Moiraine is still in limbo or killed by the elfinns.

Elder Haman: 2003-11-15

I still don't understand why going through the doorway would still Lanfear- Rand was holding the power when he went throught the doorway in Tear- He wasn't burned out.

Callandor: 2003-11-16

**I still don't understand why going through the doorway would still Lanfear- Rand was holding the power when he went throught the doorway in Tear- He wasn't burned out.**

It is not going through the doorway that would've stilled Lanfear; it is Moiraine taking away the angreal that Lanfear was using to full power that definatly would've done it.

kikyo: 2003-11-16

Lanfear would be stilled not because she was holding the power while going through the ter'angreal, but because she was using an angreal to hold more of the power than normal and Moiraine took it from her as they went through the door. At that point Lanfear would have been left holding more power than she was able.

So how about this, instead of the DO giving Lanfear a new body, perhaps it was the Finns. Maybe she was stilled when she went through the door, so she wished to be able to channel again. The way the Finns granted her wish was to kill her and put her in a new body that could channel.

Hmm ... that sounded good when I first thought of it, but as I was typing it I became less and less convinced.

Elder Haman: 2003-11-19

But that's not how angreal work! First, it's very clear that you can't get burnt out while using an angeal. Second, while never explicitly stated, it seems pretty obvious that when a channeler loses control of an angreal, they don't continue hold the same amount of power- because it was the angreal that allowed them to channel so much in the first place! THe only instance I can think of right know is Amsodean and Rand fighting over the Chodean Kal (sp?). But I seem to remember there was another similar event- and nobody got burned out.

Callandor: 2003-11-19

**But that's not how angreal work! First, it's very clear that you can't get burnt out while using an angeal.**

Lanfear was still channeling at the level of the full power angreal, WHEN IT WAS TAKEN AWAY FROM HER! Hence, she was still channeling FAR beyond what she could physically manage: IE! STILLED.

Deadsy: 2003-11-19

I agree that she was burned out when the angreal was ripped away. Asmodean and Rand wasn't the same thing. Asmodean was tired and let go of the power completely.

Cor Shan: 2003-11-19

Lanfear has to have died for two reasons:

One: She was burnt-out, and that cannot be healed like stilling

Two: she looks different. Not a M-o-M, because you cannot channel in SH's presence.

Also I doubt that the Eelfinn would just take away the gifts that they have given you if you come back: they will kill you (Like they tried with Mat.)

: 2003-11-19

evidence that mierin had somehow enhanced her capacity of saidar can be found in the BwB. mierin's description states that she lacked the "prestigious" third name, and that her profession was of only middling repute. according to the guide, honors and careers in the AoL reflected strength in the power.

two factors become prevalent:

1) mierin was a researcher of the power/ if any one could discover a method in wich to increase the amount of the power they could draw, it would logically be a researcher devoted to that feild (though mierin was "weak" in the power, she was inventive enough to bore a hole in the frickin pattern...*itch).

2) with out the assumption that mierin somehow enhanced her abilities we are left with a serious discrepancy. all of the female forsaken enviously state that lanfear is the baddest babe around, yet the guide clearly intones that mierin stood far below her saidar weilding sisters.

the evidence cannot be ignored, either lanfear's been taking steroids, or jordan's pulling another tEotW on us.

let us take the post in another direction now. our discoveries in the BwB seem to give more credence to the theory that lanfear/mierin/cyndane/yoko's recent reduction in the power is the result of an agreement reached with the Finns. though we cannot COMPLETLEY discount stillingthenhealing as a possibility, we simply do not have any viable reason to belive that it has occured. the only serious sugestions in opposition to this statment are:

1) "Lanfear was still channeling at the level of the full power angreal, WHEN IT WAS TAKEN AWAY FROM HER! Hence, she was still channeling FAR beyond what she could physically manage: IE! STILLED."

2) "Elayne intends to have Rand's bond passed to her, and if this entailed Rand being affected the way Lan was affected by Moiraine's bond passing to Myrelle, she would not do it; therefore, Lan's desire for vengeance and battle is due to either Moiraine's death, Moiraine being severed, or the gateway melting"

rebuttal:

1)the act of drawing the power is intentional, therof only the unknowing are capable of accidentally "overdrawing". it is not a matter of reaction time, lanfear choses how much saidar she pulls from the source at ANY given time.

2) though we are given descriptions of warders who have lost their aes sedai, we are not given any clear indication that the "symptoms" they suffer are a direct physical result of the loss of the bond. we have, on the other hand, been shown through siuan's pov that there is an immense emotional/psychological reaction to the loss of someone with wich you have shared the very fabric of your being. Lan's behavior can be attributed to his BELIEF that moiraine has perished. compound that with his UNDERSTANDING of how a warder is supposed to react to such loss, and the fact that he no longer shares his head with moiraine, and you get one grumpy malkeri battle lord.

so there you have it, lanfear did not still herself, and moiraine simply passed on her bond. if any of that stilling nonsense occured, it occured inside the fabeled lands of the finn, where idle speculation reigns supreme...

Deadsy: 2003-11-20

"though we are given descriptions of warders who have lost their aes sedai, we are not given any clear indication that the "symptoms" they suffer are a direct physical result of the loss of the bond. we have, on the other hand, been shown through siuan's pov that there is an immense emotional/psychological reaction to the loss of someone with wich you have shared the very fabric of your being. Lan's behavior can be attributed to his BELIEF that moiraine has perished. compound that with his UNDERSTANDING of how a warder is supposed to react to such loss, and the fact that he no longer shares his head with moiraine, and you get one grumpy malkeri battle lord."

Siuan shows that it's the bond that causes the effect. She didn't weep over Alric during the time that she was stilled. She didn't just become upset every night because she "believed he was dead" and the bond was broken. She was fine until she was healed.

We've heard several times that warders always die when their Aes Sedai dies, unless their bond is passed. If it wasn't a physical effect of the bond, I think we would have heard about sometime in the past 500 years that a warder didn't die. It's unlikely that all of these warders cared so much about their Aes Sedai that they died to avenge them just for that. We've seen AS who beat their warders, so they can't and don't all have rosy relationships. Why would a warder who hated his AS die to avenge her death? If it wasn't an effect of the bond, then there would have been a case sometime where the warder's bond wasn't passed but he still lived.

Callandor: 2003-11-20

**1)the act of drawing the power is intentional, therof only the unknowing are capable of accidentally "overdrawing". it is not a matter of reaction time, lanfear choses how much saidar she pulls from the source at ANY given time.**

Yes, and she was so damn pissed at Rand for spurning her that she was drawing every single shred of the Power she could to try to kill him. I thought that was rather obvious since Rand couldn't totally overpower her. So going from having MORE then she can possible channel to not having that angreal would do what? Make her pancakes? NO! STILL HER! BURN HER OUT!

Elder Haman: 2003-11-21

If you read the actually theory I presented:

1) Obviously Lanfear was killed- but I do not believe it was the Elfinn who did it

2) Lanfear is reduced in power- and this was done by the finns

The reason: Cydanne thinks to herself that WhatsHerName is stronger than she was before she was held by the finns- thus Lanfear identifies her reduction in power with her being "held" by finns- but does not associate her death with them.

Now, for Callador's reply:

You seem to be thinking of angreal as strengthing a channeler's natural ability to 'endure' the holding of power. This is not the description in the book- there are several instances where angreal are explained but the best place is when they used The Bowl of Winds- it's clearly stated that a channeler uses angreal by reaching through them, and that angreal increase the amount of power they can reach- thus if channeler were to lose control of an angreal while using it they would lose the connection to the power and thus they wouldn't be holding the power to get burnt out with.

Think of the Angreal like a magnifying glass- gathering in light and focusing it on a certain point- the angreal also contains a "buffer" to ensure the channeler isn't hurt by the power. When the channeler loses control of the angreal he loses both the buffer AND the magnifing ability- thus the channeler does not hold the power to get burnt out with.

Also it's been said that you can't get burt out using an angreal, because of safeguards built in- I think Aes Sedai (who are terrrified of stilling) would be smart enough not to make a tool that would still you if someone snatched it from you.

You are making assumptions without any grounds to make them.

Deadsy: 2003-11-21

We have nothing to compare with having an angreal ripped away from someone. When people lose saidar while holding an angreal it's no different than when they use it without one. They just get tired and it goes away. They don't get burned out. I don't see how that fact proves that they wouldn't get burned out if they were channeling at enhanced power while an angreal was ripped away from them. You're right that angreals have buffers on them. That's when you're holding it though. And the buffer is for way more of the power than you can usually hold. That says nothing for what happens if it's taken away suddenly while you're holding more of the power than you normally can. Also, I don't think they would have too much to worry about in making them this way. In normal circumstances people wouldn't be able to sneak up on you and you'd be able to stop them from doing it. If you can't stop them then they're normally going to be able to kill you anyway.

There are some grounds for it. Not great, but there are. Moiraine put that angreal there on the wagon purposely. She took it from the mass of other stuff and set it right on that specific wagon in front of the doorway. Why did she do this? What good came of it? Why didn't she just put it on her own wrist? There must be some reason for it. I think it was because she knew she could cause Lanfear to get burned out by ripping it away from her. and she also knew that it didn't really matter with Lanfears fight with Rand whether Lanfear had the angreal or not. She still would've won because Rand wasn't going to kill a woman.

Anubis: 2003-11-22

maybe lanfear needed to be holding enough power to melt the gateway. moirine saw the future, she knew the three possibilities, and she made her choice. everything she did was to facilitate that choice.

also my money is on moridin for killing her. that name, and her not liking it... it just seems like somthing he would do. kill someone bring them back to life and give them a name just to prove a point. also they did have a little rivalry early on and now he is firmly in controll of her... suspicious? yeah i agree, it is.

Deadsy: 2003-11-22

Good point on that being the reason she did it.

I was thinking about Moridin possibly going into Finnland to get her. If Thom ends up being able to free Moiraine.. then one of the Forsaken should be able to do the same thing. There'd have to be some reason why they could trap Lanfear and not Moridin though. This probably isn't what you're suggesting though. I just feel like if they "held" her then they didn't kill her and she wasn't able to get out on her own.

Callandor: 2003-11-22

**I think Aes Sedai (who are terrrified of stilling) would be smart enough not to make a tool that would still you if someone snatched it from you.

You are making assumptions without any grounds to make them.**

1. Callandor doesn't have a buffer, the CK only have a buffer if used with the ter'angreal statuettes, so no, they didn't put them into everything by any mistake or forgetfullness.

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 12 - Woven in the Pattern

"I hope this shows both of you how important control is. You must learn to do what you mean to do, and nothing more. Aside from harming someone else, if you draw more of the Power than you can safely handle - and you cannot handle much, yet; but it will grow - if you draw too much, you can destroy yourself. You can die. Or you can burn yourself out, destroy what ability you have."**

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 18 - To the White Tower

Use the One Power too often and too freely, and you can come to like it too much. That way lies danger. You begin to want more of it, and sooner or later you run the risk of drawing more than you've learned to handle. And that can burn you out like a guttered candle, or - "**

**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 37 - What Might Be

"A surge of the One Power." The Aes Sedai tottered to her feet and pulled her cloak tight with a shiver. "It was as if we were being forced . . . pushed. . . . It seemed to come out of nowhere. You must learn to control it. You must! That much of the Power could burn you to a cinder."**

**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 57 - A Breaking in the Three-fold Land

He had to stop this, He reached out for saidin, and it flooded into him until he thought he would burst if he did not burn first; the filth of the taint spreading through him seemed to curdle his bones.**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 55 - The Threads Burn

As Nynaeve climbed, she embraced saidar as fully as she could, as much as Moghedien could handle, to the point where the sweetness of it became almost a pain. That was the warning. More, and she would approach the point where it was more than she could take in, the point where she would still herself, burn the ability to channel right out of herself. Or perhaps out of Mogheaien, under the circumstances. Or both of them. Any way at all, it would be disaster now. She held that point though, the . . . life. . . filling her a needle's light pressure just short of breaking skin. It was as much as she could have embraced had she been channeling on her own.**

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 42 - The Black Tower

"The little I know, first thing. Even before how not to sweat to death in this weather. A weapon loses its utility if it's going to be laid up with the first wound. As it is, I have had one kill himself drawing too deeply and three burn themselves out, but no one has died from a sword yet."**

**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

Lanfear standing on the wagonbed, blazing bright as the sun with saidar, framed by the twisted redstone ter'angreal as she stared down at Rand, a pitiless smile on her lips. She was turning a bracelet in her hands. An angreal; unless Rand had his own angreal, she should be able to crush him with that. Either he did, or Lanfear was toying with him. It did not matter. Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory. At first glance it seemed to be an acrobat bending backwards to grip his ankles. Only a closer look would show that his wrists and ankles were bound together. She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe.

Suppressing a small bubble of hope-she could not allow herself that luxury-Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Source and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything.**

Right, I have NOTHING to go on and am making totally unbased assumptions. Get this, Lanfear, drawing as deeply as she possibly can through an angreal to try to kill Rand in rage, gets tackled by Moiraine through the doorway and then she looses her angreal because Moirine takes it away from her. Now, channeling through an angreal and then loosing it, you don't just say "Well, I didn't want to channel that much" if you are trying to kill someone. So she would still be trying to take AS MUCH OF SAIDAR AS SHE COULD. Hence, through the angreal she would be taking a HECK of a lot more then she could ever channel unaided. HENCE, she would be doing what Nynaeve almost did with Verin present in TGH. She would've had 2 things happen to her: die or be burned out.

Anubis: 2003-11-23

callandor, what you have proven is that drawing too much of the one power can sever, or even kill.

however, not one of your quotes mentions the use of angrael or sa'angrael. An angrael could be like a magnifying glass. rip it away and suddenly the maximum ammount of the OP a person can safely hold is lessend, but at the same time, the ammount that they are holding is lessend.

also that would be pretty dumb. You can easily draw enough through an angrael to kill you if it were not... so by your theory simply dropping an angrael would kill you or burn you out. For some reason i think not. (alright, you can use the angreal, but be VERY carefull not to drop it) Lanfear was still drawing as much as she could when she lost the bracelet, but as much as she could was less. Ergo she was not burned out.

and furthermore, the quote about being stronger before the finns held her proves you wrong. if it had been stilling that caused her to be weaker, then that would have been mentioned, instead, she was full strength, then the finns held her, then she was weaker.

Ellistann: 2003-11-24

I believe everyone is missing something that seems small, but here is quite important.

And that is what the women (Lanfear and Moiraine) are wearing, and their prospective look on how to get things done.

Lanfear grew up in the AOL and consquently brushes her teeth walks the dog , basically everything possible with the OP. And especially killing. She kills exculisvly with the power. Mog (I know, wrong Forsaken) I think is in the same boat. Toying with Liandrin " using her hands, how quaint". But the other point is what does Lanfear always wear? A white dress, silver belt. Granted she doesn't need anything else considering she has her main weapon ,the OP, with her at all times.

Let's look at Moiraine. Grew up in the days of being chastined "Don't use the Power for everything" (or like A Christmas Story "You're going to put your eye out with that thing")

Many times in the series we see Moiraine using tools (as a tribute of her block as a wilder). Her staff, a switch (the stone, fighting the trollocs)her head stone thingey. At the EOTW she finds the first seal. She takes out her belt KNIFE hands it to Lan and he busts the knife on the heartstone. Then he makes a comment like " best steel of tear" and tosses it away. We also see Moiraine stab that BA chick in New Spring (old style Legends series) WHEN SHE WAS SHIELDED.

My theory is this: Moiraine tackles Lanfear through the Doorway. We see it go boom, but to them its a battle to the death, they don't care about the location. They roll around on the ground using the angreal together, just like Asomo and Rand.Maybe Lanfear wins the OP battle and severs Moiraine, or more likely they throw everything towards one another using FIRE and the Finns cut off both women. The second option is what I believe and will continue about.

Both women cut off from the source have two different reactions.

Lanfear: Dang no weapon, game over.

Moiraine: Dang, Main weapon disabled, moving towards secondary weapon, Knife.

Considering the fact that they were fighting over a bracelet, they had to be within arms distance. Moiraine drops the useless angreal, grabs the knife and finishes the job. More than likely, the Finns punishes her for killing Lanfear or using fire, or in the most dramatic way, the door man whom escorts you to the main chamber was killed in the crossfire. The finns are pissed at her and take away the source in a more permanent way.

Well thats it, show me my mistakes. ;)

Jalt Varyd: 2003-11-24

Ellistann: Moiraine grabbed the angreal away from Lanfear; they weren't both using it. However, Lanfear would still be the stronger... Your idea sounds quite possible, to me.

Alanna Mosvani: 2003-12-25

What if Lanfear and Moiraine both asked for their (presumed) stilling to be reversed, and were required to Heal each other, resulting in lessened ability for both? wouldn't that be amusing?

Lan: 2003-12-28

"...then embraced the True Source and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything."

It is noted at one point(sorry don't have the reference available) with Rand that he does not need to be touching his angreal in order to use it, I believe this is why its not a normal issue with using angreal the idea that taking it away will burn a person out. However, it is stated when Moiraine takes Lanfear out, that Moiraine "clawed the angreal away". I believe that suggests that she either took it for herself, or she just snatched it away and dropped it.

1. She took it - Now Moiraine has an angreal, and Lanfear does not when they reach the other side, and because they were touching when they entered, they reappeared at the same place. There, the struggle would likely have continued, resulting in Moiraine overpowering Lanfear.

2.She snatched it and dropped it - No big deal, until Moiraine or someone else actually began to draw power from that Angreal... but then they fall through that doorway, and the connection between Lanfear and the Angreal is severed completely. This is not a normal situation, since it is hardly likely that an angreal will go from being within a few feet ofa person to being across a number of countries from the person(The Tower of Ghenji is north of the Arinelle 10 days upriver from Whitebridge).

Oh, the other thing, we know that simply going into the red stone doorway does not sever a warder's bond, since Moiraine went through in Tear. However, perhaps Ive missed it, but Ive never been sure what would happen if an Aes Sedai was stilled, and her warder was still alive.I would assume, since it is obviously a thing of the One Power that the connection would be severed, and that perhaps the normal warder reaction would occur.

The other thing Id like to point out is that we've not heard all the things that Moiraine asked when she went through the first time. It is entirely possible that she was told that she would have to spend some time being held by the finn and that things would be messed up if she didn't, so instead of asking to be released, she asks them to keep Lanfear from returning to the world. In order to get out of there, Lanfear either has to be killed by someone(perhaps Mori, I have no idea) or kill herself(assuming she's aware of the GLs ability to resurrect, and I believe she is). Now, its been pointed out before that she is handicapped by her lack of anything resembling normal hand tool skills, so how would she kill herself? She draws too much of the power. However, overdrawing the Power and killing oneself that way DOES NOT result in a burnt out resurrection(see Rand Al'Thor, the DRAGON Reborn). However, if it is true that Mierin somehow managed to augment her powers(I have no idea where that came from, but it sounds interesting and I'd like to see some proof) then the reduction in powers is obviously from loss of her enhancements.

I think Ive said everything now :) Feel free to pick my thoughts apart.

Dai'Shan

Callandor: 2003-12-28

**Oh, the other thing, we know that simply going into the red stone doorway does not sever a warder's bond, since Moiraine went through in Tear. However, perhaps Ive missed it, but Ive never been sure what would happen if an Aes Sedai was stilled, and her warder was still alive.I would assume, since it is obviously a thing of the One Power that the connection would be severed, and that perhaps the normal warder reaction would occur.**



1. The doorway was still intact when Moiraine went through the Tear doorway; the Rhuidean doorway was totally destroyed, along with the connection to Finnland, when both Moiraine and Lanfear went through it. Two totally different situations and would most likely sever a Warder bond quite easily.



2. If an Aes Sedai is stilled her Warder either A) dies or B) dies going crazily into battle trying to "save" their Aes Sedai (this happens when Rand stills 3 Aes Sedai upon being freed in LoC).



3. Rand doesn't need to touch his angreal, but he does have it about his person ergo in close proximity, and it is only him using it. Compare that to Moiraine forcibly taking away the angreal that Lanfear was using, and we have someone actually touching an angreal and a different channeler using it. Moiraine would be in control of that angreal, not Lanfear.



4. Moiraine clawed away the angreal, and we have no other references to the angreal being found. Odds are very strong that she took it from Lanfear and saved herself from being stilled or burned out.

spearmaiden: 2003-12-29

Good point about Rand not having to touch his angreal to use it. But, perhaps the situation with Lanfear and Moiraine is different; maybe it has to do with the design of the angreal.

Rand's is a statue, while Lanfear's/Moraine's is a bracelet. It's jewelry, something meant to be worn around your arm and against the body. We have seen many terangreal that are made in the form of jewelry, and all that I can remember DO have to be worn to work: a'dams, the bracelet-and-rings that was used with the bowl, etc. It is quite possbile that, since the angreal in question IS jewelry and was designed as jewelry, that it was also designed to work only when worn as a bracelet.

rubbernilly: 2003-12-29

A couple of things:

(more infromation regarding Lanfear being an artificially enhanced version is found in the theory entitled - of all things - "Lanfear was Artificially Enhanced)

As Callandor just wrote - warders who have lost their AS do not necessarily die. Directly on-point we have Elyas telling Perrin that he knows his AS is still alive because, very simply, he has not yet gone mad.

He does not expect to die, and he should know what would befall him if Rina (his AS) dies. He expects to go mad.

I don't think that the gate collapsing would necessarily sever the warder bond, though. What we can say is that Moiraine going through the gate in Tear and Moiraine going through the gate with Lanfear in hand are two different situations that cannot be compared with relation to Lan's bond specifically because the gate melting is an extra variable in the second instance.

Four things can account for what happens to Lan:

1) Gate severs the bond

2) Moiraine is stilled/burnt out

3) Moiraine is dead

4) Moiraine willingly releases the bond

I do not think that Moiraine is dead, so let's throw that one out. I do not think that Moiraine willingly released the bond and passed it to Myrelle. She had plenty of opportunity to release him before this point and did not, so why at that moment?

I also do not think that Moiraine has been burnt out - as that cannot be healed, and I fully expect a Moiraine the Gray (in middle-earthian ranks) to become Moiraine the White (a la Gandalf's return after fighting his version of ancient evil, the Balrog). She could be stilled, waiting to be healed. I have always thought that this would be a great moment for Nynaeve to 1) grow as a character (having to help/aid a woman that was her 'enemy' in love), and 2) realize that it takes either (a) a different weave of healing to heal stilling than it does to heal gentling, or (b) a man to heal stilling and a woman to heal a man.

My theory on this is that Lanfear, having that moment of realization that Moiraine had stepped up on the wagon bed with her, turned her attention at the Blue AS and stilled her with a sharp strike of spirit. Moiraine, however, was going for a physical attack, and managed to claw the bracelet away.

Moiraine comes away stilled, Lanfear comes away burnt out.

The Finn realize who they have captured (the Daughter of the Night), and after holding her a time - to satisfy Cyndane's reference to being 'held' by the Finn - kill her.

Those of you thinking that she would have mentioned the fact that she had been killed had she, in fact *been* killed by the Finn... those of you thinking that and using it as a justification that she was *not* killed by the Finn but instead rescued...

...to you I ask, how, exactly, would one go about referencing one's own death?

Cyndane is alive. It is silly for her to think about when the Finn 'killed' her.

Now, back on the specific topic of the theory, how we *know* that Lanfear was killed: based on the information supplied in this theory-thread from the BWB - namely that Mierin was known among the AS and had only a middling reputation - she could *not* at that time have had Cyndane's body. If she had, then the Forsaken should have recognized her, and they don't. That, then, rules out that Cyndane was Lanfear's true body/face pre-enhancement in the AoL. Since that is *not* her true body, she had to be reincarnated. Reincarnation means death, means she had to have been killed at some point after going through the gate.

Callandor: 2003-12-29

**My theory on this is that Lanfear, having that moment of realization that Moiraine had stepped up on the wagon bed with her, turned her attention at the Blue AS and stilled her with a sharp strike of spirit. Moiraine, however, was going for a physical attack, and managed to claw the bracelet away.**

How?

**TITLE: The Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER 52: Choices

Moiraine was slight, a small woman. Her weight did not disturb the wagon at all as she pushed herself up. She winced as her dress caught on a splinter and tore, but Lanfear did not look around. The woman had dealt with every threat except Rand; he was the only corner of the world she acknowledged in the least right then.

Surpressing a small bubble of hope-she could not allow herself that luxury-Moiraine balanced upright for a moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Source and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything.**

Where is the possible time that she could've stilled Moiraine? And if you think that she did while turning, why is it not mentioned in her POV? And if you say it is the white light, why would stilling cause a white light, when a white light is being caused by them entering Finnland?

rubbernilly: 2003-12-30

Lanfear would only have been burnt out once the angreal was completely removed from her possession and range of use. Whatever that is (with comparisons to Rand's fat man angreal), perhaps moiraine had not completely gained sole ownership of the usage of the angreal before they tumbled through.

Maybe it isn't in her POV because something more important - like protecting the dragon reborn - was on her mind. If Moiraine did not take out Lanfear right then, Rand would die or come out of it as LTT.

It's important to remember that Lanfear had time to turn, and that her impetus *for* turning was that she felt Moiraine fill with the OP. I think that there is enough time for Lanfear to still Moiraine...

...and besides, this scenario still best answers what happened to Lan, IMO. Not moiraine dying (since we expect her to be rescued), not moiraine willingly releasing the bond (since we would not expect this level of grief out of Lan in that case, nor for Elayne to want this for Rand if she forced Alanna to give up Rand's bond), and definitely not the gate melting. The gate was just a gate. Moiraine on one side of a door, Lan on the other. Why should the destruction of the door have any bearing on their bond? Moiraine could have kept the bond had she physically entered TAR. She could have kept it had she used th portal stones. She could have kept it as she Traveled. She kept it in The Ways. Nothing is more spectacular about the mode of travel/transport in the Gate to Finnland than is the case with these other examples, so there is no reason to expect that the gate would be the cause of the bond breaking.

That leaves that Moiraine was stilled.

Besides which, if she were not stilled (how Lan's bond would be broken then, I don't know, having ruled out the other options... but for the sake of argument...), we would think that in the months of her captivity she would have found some method of contact and/or escape using the OP.

Regardless, IMO, she is stilled and in Finnland. The method by which she was stilled is, again IMO, Lanfear.

Callandor: 2003-12-30

**Maybe it isn't in her POV because something more important - like protecting the dragon reborn - was on her mind. If Moiraine did not take out Lanfear right then, Rand would die or come out of it as LTT.**

How the heck is that possible? IT IS HER POINT OF VIEW! Nobody would go, "I'm going to protect Rand; protect Rand; protect Rand... Oh I got stilled; protect Rand!" It is MOIRAINE'S POV, and she would definatly notice something, like being able to channel and embracing the Source one second, to being stilled and not beng able to touch the Source the next, while she was leaping at Lanfear.

**...and besides, this scenario still best answers what happened to Lan, IMO. ...and definitely not the gate melting. The gate was just a gate. Moiraine on one side of a door, Lan on the other. Why should the destruction of the door have any bearing on their bond? Moiraine could have kept the bond had she physically entered TAR. She could have kept it had she used th portal stones. She could have kept it as she Traveled. She kept it in The Ways. Nothing is more spectacular about the mode of travel/transport in the Gate to Finnland than is the case with these other examples, so there is no reason to expect that the gate would be the cause of the bond breaking.**

Thing is, and pay attention to this: Finnland, is another dimension. The bond was kept the first time through in Tear because the doorway was whole and unmolested; the one from Rhuidean was destroyed with her in another dimension. Have we had anyone go to another dimension and be left there unable to return? NO! Not the Ways, not TAR, not Traveling.

**Besides which, if she were not stilled (how Lan's bond would be broken then, I don't know, having ruled out the other options... but for the sake of argument...), we would think that in the months of her captivity she would have found some method of contact and/or escape using the OP.**

Who said she wasn't stilled? I am all for her being stilled, but not by Lanfear.

Deadsy: 2003-12-31

I don't think channeling would help her in this. She could bargain her way out (if the Finns let her after destroying their door) or escape somehow. Escaping would be pretty much impossible. Read Mat's descriptions of both realms. In the first one he couldn't see the doorway at all after he'd walked a little ways. Then when he went to the room to talk to them there wasn't any doorway in sight that I recall. In the 2nd one he kept seeing the doorway down every single hallway. Again when he went to talk to them, there was no doorway in the room. I have a feeling they can keep people in that room (or wherever) if they feel like it. It wouldn't be that easy for her to find her way out even if she killed all the Finns and the doorway she used hadn't melted. If she could Travel, it would take her a long time to know her location well enough to do it.

Kazami: 2004-01-22

Hey, new to the boards, been an avid fan of WoT since it came out years and years ago...RJ takes too long to write...

Anyways...

As everyone knows, male channelers are stronger typically stronger in the one power (the "buff" male versus the "weak" female example), especially in Fire and Earth.

I remember that, when Nynaeve un-severed Logain, Siuane, and Leane, it specifically stated that she used "bridge" of fire and spirit to connect what she sensed was broken. She also thinks to herself about how men and women were different.

Could it be possible that, due to the male/female differences in strength concerning the one power, that she used the wrong type of power to heal the woman (ie maybe she should have used spirit and water/air)? That would explain why Logain was returned to his full strength, or close, while the woman were less than a third of their original strength (that's what Siuane and Leane said when they asked Nynaeve to heal them again). Throughout the epic, there is a great emphasis on balance, everything has a counterweight. There should be no reason why male channelers that get healed from severing return to full strength, while female channelers don't. Only reason would be because, as Nynaeve says, men and women are different, and she should have done something differently when healing the woman versus healing Logain.

Don't know about everyone, but I think this is a really plausible case. If it's true, then basically it means that a couple things could have happened to Lanfear...

In WH, one of the forsaken says (I forget which one...Demandred?) that while Rand is holding so much of the power, if he disturbed him, the shock would kill him or burn him out.

When Moraine knocked Lanfear into the red ter'angreal, she could have:

1. Killed Lanfear from the shock of losing saidar while hurtling through the ter'angreal

2. Seared the ability out of Lanfear to channel

If Lanfear died from the shock when she was knocked through, that would mean that the DO could ressurect her (er, place her into another body), with her full power. Aran'gar and Osan'gar didn't seem to get any weaker due to their deaths. If the "young" body theory applied, it would apply to Aran'gar as well (male channeler in a young female body), since the strength of a male channeler grows in spurts.

If Lanfear had the ability to channel seared out of her, the DO could have healed her ability to channel, better than Nynaeve (he's the DO after all).

This leaves me with the thought that, Lanfear died as she went through the ter'angreal, due to the shock of losing saidar while holding such a large amount, as well as falling through the ter'angreal.

The world of the 'finns is very different from the rest of the world...different rules, different concept of time/space. Lanfear could possibly have died in Rand's world, but still be alive in the 'finn's world. In order to leave, she paid the price of losing some of her strength in the OP, allowing her soul to leave the world of the 'finns, and allowing for the DO to ressurrect her.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated =)

rubbernilly: 2004-01-25

One word: momentum

Perhaps when you're done refusing the theory out of hand (as you're want to do), you might consider that there could be a timeline that would make this idea work. Maybe Lanfear had a brief moment after the angreal was taken from her before the power burned her out, and that moment gave her the opportunity to sever Moiraine. We already know that Lanfear was turning to Moiraine, so moiraine was about to be the focus of her attention.

Maybe Lanfear's moment was enough so that Moiraine was not severed until right after they tumbled through the gate.

Eh.

Many paths, many possibilities.

Anubis: 2004-03-04

i dont think the dark one could heal someones ability to channel. Otherwise he would have told moridin about it maybe... i dont know thats kinda wierd. maybe the dark one is forgetful? or maybe he assumes people know things? or doesnt care?

Arbryan: 2004-03-12

Callandor, I agree with a comment you made a few posts up about Moiraine definitely mentioning being stilled since it was her POV.

I think the destruction of the door itself severed the Warder Bond. I imagine the warder bond to be something akin to a spiritual rubberband that connects the two people. If the doorway melted it very well could have severed that connection without severing Moiraine from the One Power.

What I question about Lanfear is that she mentions being more powerful before the Finns held her. Not before being severed, not before dieing, but being held. I think she would have tied something as important to her as power is to the exact event that took it from her. Before striking a deal with the Finns. Before being severed and healed. Before being brought back by the DO. However it happened her time with the Finns reduced her ability to channel, IMHO.

I also have an opinion as to how Lanfear's soul leaves Finn'land and ends up in a new body. See my comments on the Mat's guide to Finnland theory if you're interested (it's too long to repeat here).

hassman: 2004-03-25

I agree that this a useful premise, but I will put a different spin on it.

We have no reason to believe that time flows in the doorway at our rate. So things that happened could have taken time, but appeared almost instantaneous.

Moraine knew exactly what she was doing, as she had the advantage of playing out all of the variations in Rhuidean. She states something that she doesn't know what will happen beyond the door, but she might have had some foreknowledge.

Morraine got three requests.

No way out for Lanfear

Reduce her power to my level

etc

And her price was to stay until rescued...with the thought that somewhere she found out that she would marry Thom, so she knew she would be rescued.

Callandor: 2004-03-26

**Reduce her power to my level**

This seems to be a very common misconception.

Cyndane is NOT as weak as Moiraine. Moiraine was weaker then Elayne and Egwene, who are both weaker then Nynaeve, who matches Moggy, who is weaker then Graendal, who is weaker then Cyndane.

This is proven in TPOD, Chapter 12, New Alliances. Graendal says she is stronger, right out.

Reddrgn: 2004-03-27

Just a thought to stir the pot a little.

possible severing from the source making her younger in appearance like others that have been severed and healed, which would also account for her diminished power, it does not however solve who would have healed her or how she escaped and as to Moraine?. . . It would explain why she/Cyndane/Lanfear looks different than she when she revealed what she really looked like to Rand.

Callandor: 2004-03-28

**possible severing from the source making her younger in appearance like others that have been severed and healed, which would also account for her diminished power, it does not however solve who would have healed her or how she escaped and as to Moraine?. . .**

None of the Forsaken as of TPOD know how to Heal severing; they know OF it, but not how.

Also, the ammount a channeler drops from an inncomplete/faulty Healing of severing (or from a woman doing it, if you believe that :)), doesn't mesh with Cyndane's power right now.

On a 21 grade scale of channeling, Lanfear would be either a 20 or a 21 for sure. Siuan would fit roughly in as a 9 or possibly 10 before she was stilled. When she was Healed back she was dramatically weaker; I tend ot think of it as roughly a fourth weaker in power. So if it is 1/4th the power, Siuan would channel afterwards at the 7.5 level; however, Cyndane would drop from a 20 or 21 to a 15 or 16.25. That would be way weaker then Graendal, since Graendal herself comments it was very rare to find a woman stronger then herself, so I would put her at around an 18 or 19 even.

And to clarify my post above, Graendal said that Cyndane was stronger then her.

**It would explain why she/Cyndane/Lanfear looks different than she when she revealed what she really looked like to Rand.**

Lanfear showed Rand what she really looked like in TSR; she was even more beautiful and basically just a magnification in beauty over what she was posing as: Selene. However, Cyndane has silver, not black hair, is short and strives for height, not tall, and she has blue eyes, not dark. The fact that the other Chosen don't recognize her as Cyndane more then shows that she isn't what Lanfear originally looks like to me.

Elder Haman: 2004-03-29

Also note that Lanfear would not suddenly appear younger if she had been severed for two reasons:

1) She was never subjected to a binder (ie she never swore an oath on the oath rod) Therefore there is no "ageless" look to be removed

2) Therefore she slowed naturally and already appears young as we can tell when she showes herself to Rand (I got the impression that she looked 29 to 32 when she wasn't disgused).

Unicorn: 2004-03-29

I would think that the "Cyndane looks like..." discussion would be over by now, Lanfear was given a new body by the DO, she was given what was handy at the time, and that's basically it.

Now as to the core theory, wow alot of things has been floated here and it seems to me that most of the idea's as to Lanfear not being killed in finnland hinges on the famous Cyndane about Alivia quote, stating that the *finn "held" her. I have seen this in this theory, compliments of Rubbernilly, I have seen it in the Slayer is Asmodeans killer theory complments of Aelfinn, I have but down somewhere myself. How would you think about an event that got you killed?????? Unless you are really sick and twisted(ok so Lanfear is that but anyway) you would be apprehensive about the experience and find someway to gloss it over. So to me it proves absolutely nothing.

I have two different ideas, ofcourse they conflict but here it goes.

a: I do not think Lanfear was stilled. but consider her state of mind. We have the kind of psycho obsession with a man not seen since that movie with Glenn Close and Michael Dougless which title I have forgotten. And the bastard not only sleeps around but he also tries to stand up for the slut when Lanfear tries to punish her. On top of this one of thebackward barbarians calling herself a Aes Sedai jums her back. Now Lanfear is not exactly knows for her even and slow temper is she. NO, she would most likely be further from reason than ever before. Are you still following me?, allright now it gets tricky because I will ignore Moiraine for now, she migh be at a totally different place when arriving to finnland. Lanfear is beyond furious and lashes our at everything and anything, the finns kill her!!!!! and the DO brings her back.

b: repeat until and including dramatic description of Lanfears temper. The tantrum receeds and she realises that the bargaining must start. She wants RAND dead. Now this would in some twisted way touch the shadow, the Finn kill her!!!!!! and the DO brings her back.

I havent seen any clues as to Lanfear getting out alive, other that the thought of our girl herself, a known psychopath who has severe delusions. not that trustworthy I would say.

Also why would the DO kill her, she hasn't betrayed him*, execpt maybe going against his wish to keep Rand alive(a wish we are not aware of!). So why, and why not just put her in the mindtrap immediately?. Now you might ask why put her in it after ressurrection - the Nae'blis has some priviliges i think Moridin asked for it, and the DO reasoable as he is agreed, beside following the events that lead to her death she would be considered at loose cannon.

So to answer the question but by Elder Hamann(an in almost all other respect sessible scholar of this world): Because it makes sense, that she died in finnland.

The reduction in strength I belive that Rubbernilly's theory abount lanfear being enhanced is very plausible. If Mierin was as powerful as Lanfear she would have been remembered for that if not for any research triumphs, perhaps the enhancement was her gift from the DO for making the bore(haven't read the theory)

*For Lanfear to aspire to take the DO's place I would think the DO laughs at the idea and expects his followers to have such ideas, after all it will make them try so much harder to be powerful.

Elder Haman: 2004-03-30

Thankyou Unicorn for your level-minded critique of my theory. However I do not yield the point. The evidence that Lanfear was killed by the 'finns is even more flimsy than the evidence she was not. The primary evidence that the Elfinns did kill Lanfear is that she is last seen alive when entering thier world, and the next time we see her (what, 3 books later?) she is in a new body. Not very convincing evidence.

The elements of murder are:

1) Opporunity: The 'finns definately had opportunity- but the time frame is so large we can't rule out anyone else.

2) Means: Most point to Mat's experience as evidence of means- but Lanfear is not Mat, and the Aelfinns where no match for Rand or Moiraine (Unfortanutly we have not seen the interaction of a channeler with the Elfinns). In addition even in Mat's circumstance the 'finns were not able to take his life until after Mat blundered by not setting a price- a mistake Lanfear is unlikely to make. Thus Means is increadibly weak in evidence for the 'finns as the killer. As one alternative: Moridin (Ishmael) has means.

3) Motive: Again people point to Mat as evidence of motive- but again we have no idea of what the thought process of the 'finns is- maybe they're only concerned with the bargain- certainly a general hate of man may be present, but is that enough to drive the 'finns into a confrontation with a Forsaken? There are others with much more compelling and specific motives: again think Moridin.

Of course I can't identify the killer with our current evidence, nor can the 'finns be completly ruled out, but the prepoderance of the evidence suggests some other perpertratior besides the Elfinns.

Unicorn: 2004-03-31

Elder Haman you do yield the point but you do come up with a little more than the "held" quote and I like that, because my primary concern has been that many apparently believed this to be the only nessecary "proof", but you come with valid point to at least make one consider taht Lanfear survived the visit. I will agree that she most likely know how to deal with the Aelfinn, but I don't think that the Aelfinn even sees her as a forsaken so a confrontation is just as likely with Lanfear as it would be with anybody else.

You have made me think, but there is very little real evidence, and I personally find Lanfears state of mind at the point of entry important enough that she was so unbalanced that she made (fatal) mistakes. As i said I think it makes sense that she died in finnland.

kikyo: 2004-03-31

I'm not sure whether Lanfear was stilled or not. Maybe if Moiraine comes back later, we'll get the story. But, I can't think of any other explanation for why Moiraine had to lay the bracelet out where it was and then yank it off of Lanfear. Yanking off the bracelet HAD to have done something to Lanfear other than cause her to stop drawing so much power, because if not, it would have been much easier for Moiraine not to bring the bracelet out of Ruidean or leave it sitting there, so that Lanfear would never have been able to use it. So I'd just like to know the explanation that people who don't believe Lanfear was stilled have for what the whole bracelet maneuvering was meant to accomplish then, since that's the part I can't really get my head around, other than to believe that Moiraine's actions stilled Lanfear.

Maverick: 2004-03-31

1.What if olver some how (ToG) gets to finnland and asks the finn how to beat the game without cheating?

2.RJ has stated (forget where) that Olver is NOT Gaidal.

3.What if Lanfear was burned out by drawing so much power and then having the angreal ripped out of her hands? What is the one thing she would wish for? To touch the power again. So couldn't a finn have “healed” her, but not to her former state? Second wish, Keep mor here. They do. Third wish, a way out. The kill her and the DO brings her back.

Arbryan: 2004-03-31

***But, I can't think of any other explanation for why Moiraine had to lay the bracelet out where it was and then yank it off of Lanfear.***

Couple reasons. She saw that future in the ter'angreal. So she did it.

It worked because Lanfear had to be enticed to the spot right in front of the doorway ter'angreal in order to be pushed through. Taking it away from her was Moiraines effort to keep that additional power out of Lanfear's hands.

***I personally find Lanfears state of mind at the point of entry important enough that she was so unbalanced that she made (fatal) mistakes.***

I agree that she was a tad out of control. Just checking. She was beyond control when she went through the doorway. She has also been scheming and plotting for a VERY long time. She's obviously intelligent, and likely the second she realized she could not immediately get to her targets she composed herself and dealth with the present. Adjusting her plans and making sure that she would have her chance for revenge. By the time she would have walked to the room/place where they grant wishes she would have been in control of her emotions.

HawkeWolfe: 2004-03-31

Just a possibility...

If Lanfear was stilled and obviously held in some way by the Finn's (Lanfear admitted she was held...that implies restraint of some sort and time), then I do not think she would want to live that way. It is possible that she killed herself. Do the forsaken know that the DO can bring them back? I wonder if that has happened during the War of Powers. It does not seem to be certain knowledge given PoV's so far. But then again, if she was stilled and held, maybe she did not care to live that way. This is all just speculation, but lets recap:

1) She just found out that the man she loves has been sleeping around, and realizes he will never love her. Remember she has been thinking he will come around ever since LTT married Ilyena(sp?).

2)She was held in some fashion. To me that implies the wishes were irrelevent at that point. If you wished yourself out of there, would you say "I was HELD"? It seems more long term.

3)You just got bested "so to speak", by a (in her opinion) know nothing chump who usually isn't worth her time.

4)Possibly stilled.

Now even the first three would be depressing enough for her, but "if" she was stilled, then I think that would set her over the edge.

Like I said this is speculation, and given the fact that most of the Forsaken are after power and IMMORTALITY, I am unsure how likely it would be that she would kill herself.

charliec: 2004-04-01

I remain unconvinced of the 'finns ability to grant extreme wishes, such as healing stilling, although I do like your proposal Maverick.

As for the Finns killing Lanfear... I've always felt it was the most likely explanation, for a start we know that they are touchy about things relating to the DO, and secondly I find it hard to believe that they would react kindly to Moiraine and Lanfear's arrival... they destroyed the doorway, and made it impossible for the bargain to continue (and clearly the Finn value the bargain or they wouldn't have made/continued it).

It has been suggested that Lanfear may have known enough about the Finn to bargain her way out... I'm not convinced- she probably hadn't been to Foxland before, as she made it through the doorway (although perhaps she just 'tagged' along with Moiraine), and we don't know that much more was known about the Finn even in the AoL... are there any quotes about when the bargain was made?

In addition she refers to being 'held', which does suggest that she was (initially at least) unable to escape.

With the doorway destroyed, and the Finns very probably unhappy with both the girls, and no escape known to us except (possibly) the tower of Ghenjei, AND Lanfear possibly having been stilled by losing the angreal... somehow I don't see Lanfear escaping except through death, or being in a position to bargain for wishes.

Elder Haman: 2004-04-01

This is actually another point in favor of Lanfear dying after being in 'finnland. If the destruction of the ter'angreal arch severed Lan's bond might it not have severed Lanfear's connection to the Dark One? If Tamyrlin's Black Cord Theory is correct- at the very least there may be some limits on where the Dark One can Transmorgify her.

The thing is that the "held" quote shows that Lanfear did not die immeadiately upon the distruction of the archway, and I fell all the other evidence points to Lanfear escaping before she died.

: 2004-04-05

Just some musings. Hope they aren't too random for this topic.

Regarding Moiraine. We do know something about the foxes. When discussing the snake's doorway, all the Two Rivers folk keep thinking about Bili, and his wishes, who receives his wishes, then comes back 100 years later (or something like that). I think that story is something left over from dealings with the foxes, showing that wishes aren't always granted the way you think they will be. Bili must have asked for something, and the tricky foxes granted the wish in an unexpected way. Does she have to be rescued? What if Moiraine wished was for some way to help Rand at the last battle, and the foxes granted the wish by letting her out right before? Do they experience time the same way as the folks in randland? Regarding the viewing/dreams, she could always be rescued at some point after leaving the finns.

The bracelet. Moiraine doesn't seem to think of the bracelet as a normal angreal. Maybe she has extra knowledge from the rings? For example, the other two outcomes of the confrontation with Lanfear could be ones where she used the bracelet instead of Lanfear. Moiraine says "She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean." Did she not like it because of what it looked like? An angreal is an angreal, no matter what it looks like. Several times it is mentioned that angreal are rare. Why wouldn't she have brought it out of Rhuidean? What's wrong with it? Its appearence was of a man bound hands to feet. Could it "bind" someone in some way? Would its use corrupt in some way? Function is not always related to form, when it comes to these things, but on the other hand... Maybe it allowed access to more power, but decreases the wielder's use of the power unaided? Or it had some other negative affect.

Other comments.

The finns don't like fire. The doorway DID melt in flames. No reason it couldn't have done so on the finn's side as well. The finns always ask if you are bringing the makings of fire BEFORE they bargain.

Lastly, but maybe most relevent, I don't see why the doorways themselves couldn't have been linked to the bargaining. There is nothing saying you get three wishes or answers if you enter their reality though the Tower of Ghenji. In fact Birgitte warns against entering that way. If the doorways are linked to bargaining, if the doorway is destroyed, would you still get answers/wishes? Death may have been the easiest way out, if wishes were no longer being granted. Lanfear knows she could be resurrected, Moiraine knows rebirth won't help at the last battle, so she is more likely to try to find another way out (or wait for rescue).

Elder Haman: 2004-04-06

Lanfear was very fond/proud of her body- somehow I doubt she would ever willing part with it.

Manetheren: 2004-05-24

In response to the discussion over whether only men can be healed completely of severing, unless the late hour has added completely made-up sections of book to my head, I recall a portion in one of the later books where a character describes how Flinn managed to figure out how to heal the stilling of the three women guarding Rand when he escaped the box, how they felt exactly as they did before they were severed. They even comment on how these reborn Aes Sedai aren't being punished, as their severing was punishment enough. This, to me at least, shows pretty conclusively that severing CAN be healed completely, but only by the opposite sex. If the fact that it's 5 AM has more to do with me remembering this then reality, my apologies.

Zader: 2004-07-05

IMO If Lanfear had previously been through the Ter'Angeal being in contact with Moiraine would make no difference. Moiraine would fall through. Lanfear would not. Moiraine knew Lanfear would go through the doorway with her because it was one of the futures she had seen.

As to the change of bodies for Lanfear and Moiraine yes we do have proof the Finns can do this. Mat is the proof, Mat has other people's memories. How does this prove they can do it I hear you asking. Easy. Look at it from the perspective of the people's memory Mat has got, they are in another body, and not their own.

What is to prevent the Finns' putting Moiraine and Lanfear's memories in another body. The Finn's granted Mat passage out and he also specified where he wanted to go. I believe Moiraine and Lanfear did not specify where they wanted to go but left their leave taking open ie I want to be near the DR. In stating their request this way they left themselves open to be memory shifted to another body.

brother of Battles: 2004-07-07

It is in my opinion that Lanfear was killed by the finns. The reason though is that that was the price they took from here. My reason beind saying that is that when she fell throught the twisted doorway, and had the angreal ripped away from her, she burned herself out. Then while still in a rage, demanded from the finns to be able to channel again. They gave her back the ability to channel, but took her life as payment. That opened up the door for the DO to put her in her new body. Plus I think she didn't specify how strong she wanted her ability back, and the finn (unable to channel) didn't know how strong she was, so they didn't give her all of her normal strangth back. Well, yeah that is my opinion.

Callandor: 2004-07-07

**IMO If Lanfear had previously been through the Ter'Angeal being in contact with Moiraine would make no difference. Moiraine would fall through. Lanfear would not. Moiraine knew Lanfear would go through the doorway with her because it was one of the futures she had seen.**

We have one situation of two people entering Finnland at the same time: Moiraine and Lanfear.

We do not know if the doorway would distinguish between the two or take them both. Each option is viable.

**As to the change of bodies for Lanfear and Moiraine yes we do have proof the Finns can do this. Mat is the proof, Mat has other people's memories. How does this prove they can do it I hear you asking. Easy. Look at it from the perspective of the people's memory Mat has got, they are in another body, and not their own.**

So, the Finn keep people's bodies laying around, just in case they need to put memories into other people?

Is Lanfear in Moiraine's body? Simple answer: No. She is in Cyndane's body, which is quite different from Moiraine's.

Davian93: 2004-07-08

****What is to prevent the Finns' putting Moiraine and Lanfear's memories in another body. The Finn's granted Mat passage out and he also specified where he wanted to go. I believe Moiraine and Lanfear did not specify where they wanted to go but left their leave taking open ie I want to be near the DR. In stating their request this way they left themselves open to be memory shifted to another body. ****

Yes, but there's pretty strong evidence that Lanfear was transmigrated into a new body by the DO. Hence the reason for her name "Last Chance". As in this is your last body, dont mess up.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-07-09

Good Job Brother of Battles, that's exactly what I was thinking. To add to this, I think that Moiraine is way too smart to wish for anything stupid, so I think she will come back a super strong channeler or have something really cool to add to the light forces.

Celebrindal: 2004-07-13

I have a quick question that goes back to the discussion from late in 2003.

TFOH: **Suppressing a small bubble of hope-she could not allow herself that luxury-Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Source and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything.**

Why did Moiraine embrace the source before leaping at Lanfear? Doing so gave the Forsaken an instant to turn around toward Moiraine. Did she need Lanfear to turn in order to reach the bracelet?

If she intended to burn out Lanfear by taking away the angreal, she could have done that without embracing the source. Shouting at her would have worked as well. She would then have been able to do whatever she wanted with Lanfear on the other side of the doorway, as the Forsaken would not have been able to channel.

The fact that Moiraine embraced the source before attacking Lanfear seems to indicate that she needed to be touching the one power in order for her plan to work. This could mean that she intended to use the angreal herself once on the other side of the doorway, perhaps against Lanfear or to defend herself against the foxes. Again, this all goes back to the debate over whether they were separated upon entering the Finns' world, or if they remained together. I do not think that Moiraine would be able to best Lanfear in a duel even with the acrobat angreal, so that would seem to indicate that her plan had more to do with obtaining the angreal for herself for some unknown purpose.

Finally, Jordan could simply have had Moiraine embrace the source to add to the climax of the scene. Two people falling face-to-face through the doorway fighting is much more heroic than Lanfear getting knocked in from the side.

Celana: 2004-08-02

Okay, I'm a relatively new Jordan fan. I've only read the books twice, so tell me if I'm off my rocker here. Both times I read the books I got the impression that Lanfear had visited the finns before she died, some time during the age of legends and that it was back then that she had been altered in some way to be as strong as a woman possibly could be without an angreal. When the other forsaken are discussing Cyndane they believe that she cannot be Lanfear because she is not as strong as Lanfear was. It is apparent that it is the soul or thread of a being is what carries it's ability to channel, not the body, else how would Arangar be able to channel at all? I don't believe the finns could have altered Lanfear's soul, but they could alter her body in some way- don't ask me how! When the body of Lanfear died and that soul was transfered to the body of Cyndane it would revert back to its original powers.

Celana: 2004-08-02

Oh wait I forgot, now you're all going to ask me how she went through the door terangreal if she had been through it before. Just remember that nothing is an absolute rule when it comes to the power. Remember back when Nynave was taking her test for becoming Accepted and in the third ring she channeled and MADE the doorway appear a second time? When she shouldn't have been able to channel at all? I'm sure that Moiraine and Lanfear both were weaving for all they were worth when they fell into the finns terangreal. Their use of the power could have had any unknown kind of effect or reaction with the terangreal! It very well could have killed them both, or ripped open a hole that Lanfear could go through a second time. Also remember that Lan felt the warder bond snap and Moiraine die as soon as she and Lanfear fell through the doorway. If the finns did indeed kill Lanfear and Moiraine, wouldn't there have been some kind of time delay between when they fell and when Lan felt Moiraine die? There was no change in the warder bond when Moiraine went through the terangreal doorway in the Stone of Tear. She died as soon as she hit that doorway. At least, that's my theory...

Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-08-02

Celana wrote

**Also remember that Lan felt the warder bond snap and Moiraine die as soon as she and Lanfear fell through the doorway. If the finns did indeed kill Lanfear and Moiraine, wouldn't there have been some kind of time delay between when they fell and when Lan felt Moiraine die? There was no change in the warder bond when Moiraine went through the terangreal doorway in the Stone of Tear. She died as soon as she hit that doorway. At least, that's my theory...**

The general theroy I have heard is Lan felt the bond snap because the connection between Randland and Finnland broke. I think that maybe when Lanfear and Moraine went through channleing for all they were worth, it ticked off the finns and they stilled them. This may have been done in self defense. I think the Finns or Lanfear stilled Moraine and then the Finns killed Lanfear, or maybe she forced them to kill her so she could be "rescued" by the DO. Well at least it is another way to look at things.

Callandor: 2004-08-03

**Oh wait I forgot, now you're all going to ask me how she went through the door terangreal if she had been through it before. Just remember that nothing is an absolute rule when it comes to the power.**

Or, because Moiraine was also going through it at the same time, the doorway could not accept one, and not take another, so they both went through ;)

**Also remember that Lan felt the warder bond snap and Moiraine die as soon as she and Lanfear fell through the doorway.If the finns did indeed kill Lanfear and Moiraine, wouldn't there have been some kind of time delay between when they fell and when Lan felt Moiraine die? There was no change in the warder bond when Moiraine went through the terangreal doorway in the Stone of Tear. She died as soon as she hit that doorway. At least, that's my theory...**

Oy. Moiraine is not dead! Why the heck do people believe this? She went through an alternate dimension, and her exit was destroyed. That would have absolutely no effect on the bond?

Great, her bond maintained through the Aelfinn doorway. Did that doorway melt and was unable to be used? I don't think so.

matoyak: 2004-08-03

I did not read all of these, just the first one. when moriane pushed lannie into the ter'angreal lannie was full to bursting with the one power through the angreal thrying to kill first rand then moriane so when you are holding that much with the angreal what happens when that angrael gets clawed away? (to use the word RJ used) when you are holding that much of the one power without an angreal you will be (a) burn out or (b) killed. The most likely one is (a) so we will go with that one. Lets say they don't reappear on the other side at the same place (yes i know that was debated but i have only been on this sight 4 days sooo...) lannie's mad at being stilled and as she is used to being obayed she demands to get out. They only answear wishes remember. so after ranting she calmes down and they tell her she can have three wishes (sorry don't get me for the three wishes thing) (B.T.W. why would she know better? Do the forsaken have supreme knowledge of everything or somthing?) so here are her wishes

1)to not be burnt out

2)for moriane to be trapped here (in finnland)

3)to get out

since she doesn't know about the price deal she doesn't set her price, so they take her life

then when she gets reborn as cyndane (which means last chance B.T.W.) the dark one gives her less power, a mind trap, and a name that means this is your last chance; don't screw it up

ranman38: 2004-08-03

Ok, here goes. How about a compromise. Lanfear, holding the angreal, falls throught he doorway; Moiraine tears the angreal out of her hands, wham, too much power = burned out. She gets out or is ejected from the 'finns world. She is useless at this point. Moridin, the DO, someone finds her. Kills her, so she can be transmigrated, and renames her Cyndane ( last chance) and to punish her, reduces her powers.

Stilicho: 2004-08-16

Curious side note- Cyndane was weaker than she was when she was Lanfear. Siuane and Leane were both weaker in the OP after being healed. No mention is made that Osangar and Arangar are weaker on their "rebirth." Logain was not any weaker after being healed. Could Lanfear/Cyndane's weakness have something to do with being a woman who was stilled/burned out. If true, this would suggest that even reincarnated women cannot regain their former strength if they were ever stilled in a previous life. But why? And why would stilled men be different? Or does complete healing of stilling/gentling require a OP user of the opposite sex? Does anyone have any answers?

Callandor: 2004-08-17

1. Yes, Cyndane was stronger as Lanfear.

2. You cannot say Cyndane was transmigrated - you do not know that.

3. For Cyndane's power drop to happen, would mean a woman Healed Lanfear of stilling before her appearance in TPOD. The only ones who would do this (and I use that VERY loosely) would be the female Forsaken; none of which know the weave for Healing stilling. Moridin knows OF it, but no other Forsaken even remarks upon it (Aran'gar might have, but it doesn't help if he did anyway).

4. I am of the opinion that it takes the opposite sex to Heal stilling (join the faction ;)). That is, it takes a man to Heal a woman fully of stilling (as proven by Damer) and a woman to Heal a man totally of gentling (as proven by Nynaeve) (Note: stilling and gentling are the same thing; severing). Only thing stopping this from being established fact is for a man to be Healed by a man, and for him to be reduced in strength.

ranman38: 2004-08-17

All due respect Callandor, but you say I cannot say the she was transmigrated (which I did not say with much conviction) because I do not know that, then you say that for her power drop to happend she would have to be healed by a woman, etc. YOU do not know that. So, when answering someones reply, remember to always pactice what you preach. :)

Stilicho: 2004-08-17

No, Callandor, I do not "know" Cyndane was transmigrated and RJ hasn't told me that Cyndane was transmigrated,BUT: 1) Why else would Lanfear appear as Cyndane?; 2) There is no reason for her to assume a disguise via the Op; 3) Why? Why? Why? On the other hand, I agree with your position that it requires the opposite sex to fully heal severing.

Dorindha: 2004-08-18

Callandor:

1- I assume this is a typo, but for clarification, Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was

2 - You can't say she wasn't. We don't KNOW she was transmigrated, as a certainty, but it does seem likely, you seem dismissive of it here.

3 - I think you're making the point that she wasn't healed - fair enough, I agree. Transmigration in some way seems more likely.

4 - I agree with you about being healed from stilling, and I'm in the faction!

Callandor: 2004-08-18

**No, Callandor, I do not "know" Cyndane was transmigrated and RJ hasn't told me that Cyndane was transmigrated,BUT: 1) Why else would Lanfear appear as Cyndane?; 2) There is no reason for her to assume a disguise via the Op; 3) Why? Why? Why? On the other hand, I agree with your position that it requires the opposite sex to fully heal severing.**

Enhancement.

And by the way, I was saying that her power to drop for a woman to Heal her to go with the theory; that is the most common and most likely position to be true.

Celana: 2004-08-21

Has there ever been any mention of how severe the Lanfear to Cyndane power reduction was? Both Siuan and Leanne experienced a very large reduction in their abilities. I have always had the impression that although Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was, the difference is not as extreme as the difference Leanne and Siuan experienced.

Callandor: 2004-08-23

**Has there ever been any mention of how severe the Lanfear to Cyndane power reduction was?**

Graendal did.

**TITLE: The Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances

Graendal kept her own face smooth, with a little effort. She had supposed this girl some Friend of the Dark whom Moghedien had picked up to run errands, perhaps a noble who thought her title counted, but now that she was close.... The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women. On the instant, on instinct, she changed her intention to deny any contact with Sammael.**

As did Mesaana.

**TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News

She was a puzzle to Demandred. At first he had thought she was Lanfear reincarnated. Bodies for transmigration supposedly were chosen by what was available, yet Osan'gar and Aran'gar were proof of the Great Lord's cruel sense of humor. *He had been sure, until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than Lanfear.* Mesaana and the rest thought she was of this Age. Yet she spoke of al'Thor as Lews Therin, just as Lanfear had, and spoke of the Choedan Kal as one familiar with the terror they had inspired during the War of Power. Only balefire had been more feared, and only just. Or had Moridin taught her for purposes of his own? If he had any real purposes. There had always been times when the man's actions had been sheer madness.**

What we have is a very rough outline of strengths.

Lanfear was, if her POV can be called truth, as strong as a woman could be. Alivia and Sharina are assumed to be in this same area. Alivia is stronger then Nynaeve by a great deal. Nynaeve matches, or slightly bests, Moghedien. Moghedien is weaker then Graendal (she is not included among the "special cases" of being stronger then herself).

So Lanfear was quite a bit stronger then Graendal. Now Cyndane is stronger then her. But is that a difference? Yes, it can be a major one.

Let's say Nynaeve is a 15 strength channeler. Moghedien (for simplicity) is also 15. Graendal is a 16. She is stronger the Moghedien, but it can/can't be concidered much (you can chose on your own numbers if you wish). Let's say the strongest a female channeler can be is 20.

So, order goes:

Lanfear - 20

Graendal - 16

Nynaeve - 15

Moghedien - 15

You can see how Lanfear is much stronger then Graendal. So is Cyndane being stronger then her a big drop? It can be.

Let's say Cyndane is a 17. She is still stronger then Graendal, but a VAST difference then her former self (if you really wanted to compare, you could say Egwene, Elayne, Avi - 13; Siuan and Moiraine - about 8 or 9; average Aes Sedai - 6 or 7. Siuan after Healing is a 5. 3 place drops; the same as Lanfear to Cyndane).

So it can be seen as a giant drop in strength, or slight.

The Dragons Advocate: 2005-01-20

The idea that Lanfear set the price to become slightly weaker in the power is ludacris. All of Lanfears life goals was to gain more strength in the power, not weaken it. How could she challenge the DO and the Creator if she set the price to weaken herself. I believe Lanfear forgot to set a price on her exit, and in return, recieved the same punishment Mat did, Death. But we all know Mat escaped that because Rand was there to save him after leaving the Ter'angreal.

Garayur: 2005-02-09

Cyndine is a combination of both Lanfear and Moraine. Tehr eason she is weaker is that her strength is an average of hers and Moraine's. If she has merely been damaged by the 'fins then she would have kept her name. the DO would not have killed Lanfear because it would simply have been easier to use the mind trap directly. it also would not have weakened her.

ranman38: 2005-02-10

There is absolutely no evidence to support a Lanfear/Moir combo.

Aiel Finn: 2005-02-10

I don't think that Cyandene could be a combination of Lanfear and Moriane. When we hear her POV, she speaks as though she was only Lanfear. I know I've said this before, but I believe that Lanfear somehow killed herself to escape the finns.

The Wolfbrothers: 2005-07-15

What about this: Lanfear and Moirane were both stilled going through the doorframe. Lanfear wished for her ability to channel back and that she could have the power could turn Rand to the Dark so as to have him for herself. The price was a reduction in her newly reinstated ability to channel. The 'finns didn't like this so they killed her. Moiraine, in exchange for imprisonment in the Tower of Ghenej, wished for her ability to channel back and for Rand to win (and survive) the Last Battle, maintaining his sanity up until and after the Last Battle.

JakOShadows: 2005-07-16

It is possible that that happened, but I believe that there is no way to know what happened until a later book so we'll have to rafo. Plus, the idea of how specifying a price is supposed to work is not very clearly stated. I just reread that passage a few days ago, and I might not have read it that clearly, but it looked like they had a lot of say in the price even if it was specified.

Tallyn alCrait: 2005-10-06

Elder Haman,

You say Lanfear's price was a reduction in her ability to channel. But, how far? I am re-reading The Path of Daggers, and in chapter 12 Graendal confronts Cyndane and Moghedien. This is a direct quote: "The girl was stronger in the One Power than [Graendal]! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women."

I don't mean to throw this in your face, but it kind of negates your theory about the Eeelfinn, exacting a price on Lanfear without her knoweledge.

Callandor: 2005-10-07

**I don't mean to throw this in your face, but it kind of negates your theory about the Eeelfinn, exacting a price on Lanfear without her knoweledge.**

Not really - we know through other Forsaken and Cyndane's POV herself, that she is reduced in strength. So, how does the quote you gave refute this? All it does is show she lost strength, just not enough to be weaker than Graendal.

Fog and Steel: 2005-12-06

all due respect callandor, but when siuan was healed by nynaeve, she was restored to only one-third of her strength, as was given in the book. i don't believe that a healed lanfear, at one-third strength can be stronger then graendal. that rules out the stilling theory entirely. also the book says that she was held by the Elfinns - held how ?? - and was then freed. so she couldn't have just wished for escape like that. also, i dont think that transmigration affects ones strength in the one power, otherwise osangar and arangar would have said something.

ThunderWalker: 2005-12-07

Regarding the reduction in power strength, why can't that be a result of the Mind Trap?

The Mind Trap traps a piece of your soul -- and the soul contributes to channelling, and possibly strength in channelling. So, if the Trap contains 2% of your soul, wouldn't you be 2% weaker in strength?

Two are trapped. Cyndane and Moghedien.

If Moghedien's strength is a little off, it may not receive comment. After all, she is herself. There is no reason to spend the effort to gauge strength in that fine a detail. They already know what it should be.

Lanfear, who is a little more proud of (and anal about) her strength, would of course complain, even if the reduction was minimal (1 step).

Mesaana made a point of weighing Cyndane's strength, to compare with Lanfear's.

All we know is that Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, stronger than Graendal, and possibly ties her drop in strength to her time in Finnland.

If Lanfear died in Finnland, was transmigrated, and immediately Mind Trapped upon awakening, she could think of her "failure" of dying (or being trapped) in Finnland as resposible for being Mind Trapped.

Stilling is breaking a body's connection to the OP. Being placed in a new body, one with the connection intact, would probably not require healing.

And if Lanfear was recycled into a body that had been previously severed, the reduction in power due to the imperfect healing of Female by Female seems to reduce strength a lot more than appears in Cyndane's case. Siuan is the lowest of the low.

I think it more likely her reduction is either due to the Mind Trap, or due to a loss of "enhancement" be being transmigrated to an un-enhanced body.

JakOShadows: 2005-12-07

Fog and Steal, it was always my pet theory that Lanfear was a given a body that genetically couldn't handle as much channeling, because of a shortage. And that way the DO could give the could give the stronger bodies to his more worthy servants. And the fact that the DO gave Ba'althemal, (sorry about the spelling), a woman's body is also evidence for it. I just never sent it in because there is not enough evidence for it. But I just wanted to point out that it isn't completely out of the question.

Khazhul: 2005-12-12

**And the fact that the DO gave Ba'althemal, (sorry about the spelling), a woman's body is also evidence for it**

I can't say I believe strength in the One Power is tied to a body. How could a woman's body have any connection to strength in Saidin?

Fog and Steel: 2005-12-12

so are you implying that strength in the one power can be increased during transmigration ?? i don't think thats possible. A decrease in strenght maybe, but not an increase.

Canan Urgas: 2006-04-19

could it be that cyndane is wearing a shield similar to what lanfear put on asmodean? ive heard that theory on anothetr site

JakOShadows: 2006-04-19

But what would be the need to do that? I'm not saying there is proof for or against it, but she is already mindtrapped. Why weaken her when she can be used as a tool to her fullest advantage? So while evidence for or against is not there, the motive is questionable. Of course, she is not that much weaker than anyone else, because she is still stronger than Graendal. I just think there are too many holes in what happened in finnland to gather anything conclusive about her change afterwards.

Callandor: 2006-04-19

**could it be that cyndane is wearing a shield similar to what lanfear put on asmodean? ive heard that theory on anothetr site**

Asmodean's shield didn't hide his ability; only because he was a male channeler was it unknown what his maximum strength was. For women, such a shield would be detected or at least do nothing to stop Cyndane's strength being exactly that of Lanfear's before. She may be only able to channel 75 out of 100 for example, but female channelers would still be able to detect that she has a maximum of 100.

And as been said, the motive for doing so on anyone's part is weak as ever.

MatOdin: 2009-10-29

but she was reincarnated by the DO as Cyndane. she has to be dead to be reincarnated, and I'm pretty sure that the DO has to be able to freely touch the world to make new Forsaken.