inguistic Discrepancies in the Old Tongue
by Darren: 2004-01-28 | 2 out of 10 (2 votes)
In CoT, Aviendha's horse is named Siswai, which Elayne says means "spear" in the old tongue. It doesn't. Siswai has to mean Dragon. The error here is coming from siswai'aman, the spear of the dragon, but the secret name of the Aiel algai d'siswai, means people of the dragon, no spear implicit in the name, and the word is there in its entirety.
Now I know, some will immediately leap to the marvel comics "no-prize" defense that it was Elayne who thinks the meaning is Spear, and her knowledge of the Old Tongue is imperfect, etc, and RJ would never make an error... For the sake of harmony, let's all pretend that's true (if extremely farfetched.)
Nevertheless, this is not the first or only such discrepancy, and I have some questions.
1) Does anyone know for certain that the language the shienarans speak is the Old Tongue? Its morphology seems more similar to, well, Japanese specifically, but asian languages in general, than the Old Tongue that Mat seems prone to. The Shienaran even has the "mashita" suffix.
Mat-style OT often seems to have more in common with semitic languages like Arabic (it's certainly agglutinating, seems to use glottal stops, and even the "al" definite article, as in Al'cair Dal/ Al'cair'rahienallan.) But really, the OT, in morphology AND phonology, is all over the map. Sometimes it seems almost russian.
So I guess my question is whether you all think RJ has really put a lot of thought into the OT as a grammar, or is it just "flavoured" by whatever he happens to be writing about? Certainly, the Shienarans had a lot in common with the image of the Samurai/ Feudal Japan, and so the OT becomes "flavoured" there, whereas the Aiel are more Islamic, and so the OT becomes likewise flavoured when he is writing about them.
I for one hope not. It seems at times likely that RJ has more than a passing knowledge of Arabic. (Shai'tan is an arabic word. It means devil/The Devil, and is where we get our "Satan" from, to name but one example.)
Also, the Seanchan (who well, have most in common with dynastic China) seem to speak an almost Celtic/Welsh OT; all those liquids and doubled nasal consonants like Rhyagelle and Corenne, which are not remotely Chinese. I'd probably just chalk that up to RJ being such a Tolkien fan (Karldin being called Mr. Underhill being only the most recent example.)
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Tamyrlin: 2004-02-10
No author is perfect, and Jordan's world is based on the idea that it is our world in a different Age, and that history repeats itself. Beyond that...okay, so I am really tired and I don't have anything better to say at the moment. :)
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JLohnny: 2004-02-10
It seems to me that RJ took a lot of the Old Tongue from many different languages across the world. You mentioned Shai'tan as Arabic, as is "Nae'blis" and "Mahdi." Also, some German seems to be thrown in there, as the "allein" part of "Aan'allein" means "alone" in Deutsch. It seems that Shienar definitely has Japan as its inspiration, in more ways than just the names. The topknots on the soldiers is Asian, and the "Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain" saying is Bushido almost verbatim. So it appears that RJ used a lot of the real world to create this world.
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nick: 2004-02-10
Maybe Im wrong but I was under the impression that algai dsiswai meant spear fighters not people of the dragon
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a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-10
Maybe I'm wrong, but was the "algai d'siswai" term used not for the "spears", i.e. the worriors as distinction from craftsmen and other kind of Aiel? That "-gai-" in "algai" is also the OT word for battle, combat, not for "people", "folk". So, are You sure, that algai d'siswai means exactly "people of dragon", and not "the spears of war"?
And a note concerning the Seanchan archetype: Why are You so concerning in China. Actually Seanchan is even closer to some medieval muslim nations, especially to the Ottoman Empire (including comparisons to so'jin, the Deathwatch Guard, the general treatment of conquered nations etc., even minor details like cofee drinking...) Yes, Turkish is very, very far from Arabian, but something in an Ottoman connection makes the semitic language comparisons not so odd. And in general, RJ never leaves a culture with only one historical archetype, he allways mixes archetypes (as he explicitely said in some interviews).
I'm not sure about Jordan's linguistical knowledge, (so, the Aiels speaking New Tongue is definitely hard to be explained), but at least he attempted to make something. At least lexically it looks thought through (I don't agree yet with Your translation of "siswai")
And did You found some real-language comparisons to that crazy syntactical rules OT manifests in Mat's sentences?
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Dorindha: 2004-02-10
The are more complete summaries on the web.
As for siswai - it does mean spear, or at least is one word for it, (darei as in Far Dareis Mai or Ashanderai). algai d'siswai is the name for Aiel warriors, not all Aiel (they are all people of the dragon), to differentiate them from the other Aiel, and I would guess means something like "those who use the spear". This would then mean that it is the "aman" bit of siswai'aman that means dragon.
I think RJ has been fairly consistant with language, but we know he likes to do surprising things with cultures (I'm thinking of your comments on Seanchan, though I don't think their old tongue is particularly different, and is nothing like welsh) - the Aiel, as has been pointed out before, are anthropologically nothing like a desert people.
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Mairashda: 2004-02-10
siswai aman- spears of the dragon is the expression everybody is talking about. "old tongue" does of course not equal "old tongue". birgitte notices different dialects and accents on mat. one should imagine the old tongue as some sort of latin: there is classical latin which deteriorated into medieval latin and later italian and other romanic languages....
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Murrin: 2004-02-10
'algai d'siswai' is the term for aiel spear-fighters.
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Callandor: 2004-02-10
**Q: Mr. Jordan? If I may? How did you develop the Language?
A: the words come partly from Gaelic, Russian, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, the grammar and syntax I believe I invented myself although it's possible that another language uses the same. Of course, just as with English, I have deliberately put in some very illogical inconsistencies.
Q: Mr Jordan, I was wondering where you came up with the "old language" and the Aiel language? Are there preset rules to them and it is a functionong language? Or do you just have a set of _words_ that you devised and insert when needed?
A: It's a functioning langauge in that I have developed a basic grammar and syntax, and have a vocabulary list which I have devised, some from Gaelic of course, but from languages less often used. russian, arabic, chinese, japanese. I try to follow these rules that I've set up but occasionally I realize I have to invent a new rule because I'm doing something I've never done before but it all follows the grammar I've devised. As far as the Aiel that I've devised as a culture they have bits of Apache, bits of Beduin, bits that are simply mine.
Q: Is there a complete language of the Old Tongue, and if so, how long did it take you to develop it?
A: There are some 880 basic words -- maybe 900. I got a list of what is considered basic English, which are the 800 odd words of a basic English vocabulary, removed the words that were of no use in the context of my world, came up with words in the Old Tongue in each of those English words, and then added those words that did have a specific context in my world.**
There you go.
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Aelfinn: 2004-02-10
About some more "linguistic discrepancies":
Da'covale means "One who is owned"; da'tsang means "One who is despised"; Mia'cova means "My owner." "Cov[a]" must mean the root word of "Own". Both da'tsang and da'covale means "one who is....."
Since damane, sul'dam, and a'dam all have to do with leashes, all have "dam" in them, and "damane" means "Leashed ones"... then shouldn't "damane" instead be "da'dam"?
Or maybe RJ just thought that didn't sound quite good.
And there definitely are two (or more!) words for "spear". There's Far Dareis Mai, Cor Darei (Night Spears), and "ashandarei" (someone once said it meant "Guardian Spear", Asha'man + darei, who was that?).
Then there's also "siswai'aman" (Spears Owned By the Dragon) and "algai'd'siswai" (Dancers of the spear or something like that), so "Aman" might mean Dragon. Siswai is obviously "Spear", so there's Darei and Siswai.
Now, which do you use where?
BTW, I was going to post this in a theory myself, but I was beaten to it :) I just love languages, and am working on doing my own study on the OT, SO DON'T ANYONE ELSE PUT ONE IN!! =)
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free will: 2004-02-10
Maybe Im wrong but I was under the impression that algai dsiswai meant spear fighters not people of the dragon
I totally have to agree on aman=dragon, siswai=spear, and algai=fighter
Only members of the 12 warrior societies are algai'd'siswai, but all Aiel are the People of the Dragon.
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Darren: 2004-02-10
Thanks Callandor, that's awesome. Exactly the sort of quote I was looking for. Dorindha, siswai means both spear and dragon. It's a discrepancy (which is why it's mentioned)
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vodomar: 2004-02-11
There is a partcicular quote in aCoS (chapter: Swovan Night) which I think explains a fair bit about the different old tongue (this is what Mairashda was refering to:
- But you ... One sentence you're an Eharoni High Prince and the next a First Lord of Manetheren, accent and idiom perfect. -
Country borders and of course distance will inevitably result in changes (i.e. the slight differences in the old tongue). As we know there are many translations for one word in the old tongue. Ask what a word means in Seanchan and ask the same in Shienar and you'll probably get different translations.
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Mairashda: 2004-02-11
I have read that there are some deliberate inconsistancies within the old tongue- as there are within any language... BUT why should "siswai" mean "dragon" and "spear"? spear, I can see- but i've always taken "aman" to be "dragon", well a form of "dragon" ...
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Darren: 2004-02-11
Let me give you some examples of what I mean:
Siswai'aman RJ"Spear(s) of the Dragon"
Far Dareis Mai "Maidens of the Spear"
Now, in this instance, the only words phonetically similar are Aman and Mai which (one might argue) could be masculine and feminine versions for the same noun, or genitive and objective cases of the same noun. Either could apply.
However, either situation makes "Siswai" quite unlikely to mean spear.
I cited "al'gai d'siswai," the secret name of the Aiel that Rhuarc mentions at the end of TDR as "The People of the Dragon" this would make sense, putting aman "spear" with siswai "dragon"; d'siswai becomes a genitive case, and al'gai becomes "the people" (although I'm willing to bet it could also translate as "the warriors", and true it is hard to imagine that the Aiel would see a difference between the two words, but I digress)
Some of you seems to be translating al'gai d'siswai as "spears" (nick puts it as "spear fighters"... and I'd love to see a text reference for where you got that idea) or some generic catch all for those in the warrior societies. To my knowledge there is NO such catch all phrase in the text, and if there is, please cite it (Novel, Chapter.) For myself I think you will find no such beast.
Dorindha, if you're going to be making empirical statements like:
As for siswai - it does mean spear, or at least is one word for it, (darei as in Far Dareis Mai or Ashanderai). algai d'siswai is the name for Aiel warriors, not all Aiel (they are all people of the dragon), to differentiate them from the other Aiel, and I would guess means something like "those who use the spear
please indicate where in the text you are getting these ideas, or they're just useless gossip. Ashanderei is NEVER translated as spear, so I don't know where you're getting that one.
And while I don't have the books with me here in Asia, I'm pretty sure that Rhuarc says at the end of TDR algai d'siswai means people of the dragon. If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to admit it.
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Darren: 2004-02-12
I agree that having synonyms for "spear" makes the most sense, and may even be quite likely the intent, although I have trouble with the Aiel having more than one word they use for their spears.
Now, before anyone gets to quoting the old saw about the Inuit having more than a 100 words for snow, and how what you know winds up with a plethora of names, and all the Aiel know is the spear and blah blah blah, let me explain why....
The reason there are so many different words for snow (I believe it's significantly less than 100, but whatever) is that there ARE a wide variety of snow types. There's the hard kind, powder, ice, melting snow, snow that's almost rain, and so on. For the Aiel, there is only ONE kind of spear. Take Japanese. Sure they have more than one word for "sword," there's "ken" which comes from "japanized" transliteration of the Chinese Kanji for sword, and is used for swords of all variety. But a katana is a katana is a katana.
Now, I will be willing to concede that Dareis and Aman might both mean spear in this sense (genus, species), but siswai definitely appears as dragon in there. (I also have problems with "'aman" meaning "dragon" because then Rand would seem to be naming the asha'man after himself, and that just doesn't seem in character.)
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a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-13
For why algai d'siswai is to mean "spear figters", there's too much of "fighter" meaning in "algai". "Gai" is an word definitely meaning battle (as in "gaidin", "gai'shain", "Tarmon Gaidon"), while "al-" is a sort of a definite article. So "algai" is "figters" literally.
And that "asha'man" would come from "aman"? hm, that doesn't look so, espesially when there is a root "-man-" in the old language, that has wide range of meanings (from "mandarb"=blade, to "Manetheren") that could be assotated eventually with "defence" or "arms", "weapon", and so take part in the etymology of "asha'man" as something like "champion", "knight". In all cases no "dragon" in that etimology, for the word "asha'man" had it's meaning from the most old time, i.e. before LTT the Dragon. Btw, why are You so sure Rand didn't included the allusion with the "dragon" word in the name for the "asha'man": they wear the Dragon-sigh as "full asha'mans", they came as recruits to the Black Tower for joining the Dragon's army, the "dragon" is the main symbol for making them proud of what they are, and Rand named them "asha'man" wanting giving them official symbolics. So the similarity between the words "asha'man" and "aman" seems rather to be an argument for "aman" being "dragon".
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Darren: 2004-02-14
I agree with you "fool" (Sorry... getting Mr. T. References) This is why I have stated that I think aman means spear. I've never said aman means dragon, I'm just responding to those who seem to think so.
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jason wolfbrother: 2004-02-15
Darren May I suggest you check out this website for a full dictionary of the Old Tongue
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/jcs97b/otd.html
There they give the meaning of each word and it is current up through Winter's Heart. Might help resolve these discrepancies you are finding
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vodomar: 2004-02-15
You asked for quotes so here they are:
FoH, Chapter 46: Other Battles, Other Weapons
-- Siswai'aman. Literally, the spear of the dragon --
** Some of you seems to be translating al'gai d'siswai as "spears" (nick puts it as "spear fighters"... and I'd love to see a text reference for where you got that idea)** Here you are:
ACoS, Glossary
-- algai'd'siswai: In the Old Tongue, "fighters of the spear," or "spear fighters." --
AND
ACos, Chapter 1: High Chasaline
-- "Well, gai'shain aren't allowed to wear anything one of the alga'd'siswai might wear - that means 'spear fighters," he added at Aram's questioning frown. --
I think that since algai'd'siswai = spear fighters and siswai'aman = the spear of the Dragon it is reasonable to say that siswai = spear just as darei = spear (TFoH, Chapter 54 -- He was Cor Darei, a night spear --)
As for Ashandarei I couldn't find a definition for it in the books but most people seem happy with the translation 'guardian spear' (from asha'man = guardian and derai = spear)
I hope that cleared up some things :)
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Darren: 2004-02-16
It does, and thanks. Actually, I took a look at TDR this weekend, and I realized I was in error about Rhuarc saying that the secret name was al'gai d'siswai.... my bad.
The best site on the old tongue out there I've found is "The Compleat Old Tongue" (sic) http://www.princeton.edu/~abergman/jordan/cot.html
which actually has some commentary by RJ. I was impressed by his savvy... I've always figured he was just winging these phrases, because of their "all-over-the-linguistic-map"ness... To tell you the truth, I'm not certain he's that far removed from it, but it's nice to see he's trying.
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Abendroth Blutjager: 2006-08-11
Doesn't "aman" mean "peace" in Sanskrit? "Aman" also means "trust/trustworthy, safety" in Arabic, "protection", "mother", "without fear", and "fear them" in other various languages...
Could it be ironic..."siswai'aman" meaning "spear of peace"? It's sort of like referring to a gun as a "peace-maker". :)
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BrainFireBob: 2006-08-15
Further notes for you.
In the Age of Legends, you "earned" your third name. In other words, that name had meaning.
Telamon- Tel-amon
If "tel" is an article of some sort, then Lews Therin EARNED the sobriquet "the Dragon"- hence, the phrase "Lews Therin Telamon the Dragon" is similar to the Sahara Desert or Nile River- redundant.
Where amon and aman are either differing cases or linguistic drift.
It would also fit Chinese mythology, where the Dragon is the greatest of protective spirits. Hence, Asha'man- which would be something-dragon.
I think "tel" was used somewhere else, but I can't recall when . . .
There I go- tel'aran'rhiod.
Rhiod reminds me of the Gaelic for "world/earth."
That's make Aran- aranriod the dreamer, amusingly- mean "shadow" or "reflected."
Now, "aran" is used in two other words- Shadar Haran and Mafal Dardaranel- the latter of which we lack a translation for.
However, Shaidar Haran is often used for Hand of the Dark.
BUT- Shai is similar to shain, which means "dedicated."
dar- has some meaning with respect to the Saidar, as well as Shaidar's name. If it's an analog to "din", it means "sister"
And haran may be a form of "aran"- a liason of some sort.
So, dedicated sister of the shadow?
if dar is the gender neutral of the Old Tongue, then it's
Dedicated One of the Shadow- and Hand of the Shadow would be a colloquial translation for what would most literally mean "major domo"
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callmeISHAMAEL: 2006-08-15
Siswai'aman means spears of the dragon. Algai'd'siswai means spears of war or something like it. DA'SHAIN means people of the dragon.
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callmeISHAMAEL: 2006-08-15
Just thought I'd add to my last reply. Someones provided quotes for siswai meaning spear, so I'll add my bit. Sorry for lacking quotes, but in FoH Rand sees the Aeils past, and it says Da'shain means people of the dragon, or something like that.
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Anubis: 2006-08-15
**It would also fit Chinese mythology, where the Dragon is the greatest of protective spirits. Hence, Asha'man- which would be something-dragon.**
You totally almost had it. Asha'man means guardian, or protector, but one of justice or goodness or whatnot, fitting perfectly with what you said about the Dragon being an protector spirit.
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Zalis: 2006-08-16
Da'Shain does not mean "People of the Dragon."
It is often listed as being the origin of the word "Aiel," which we know means "dedicated." So Da'Shain would seem to mean something like "sworn to peace" or "one who is dedicated to peace."
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BrainFireBob: 2006-08-17
Actually no.
The Da'shain were the Da'shain Aiel.
They were often referred to as just "Da'Shain", but that wasn't the full name.
Da'shain means "pledged to peace in battle" (or conflict, I imagine), and Aiel means "dedicated." Ergo, they were dedicated to a pledge of peace in battle.
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deil: 2009-01-25
From gai'shain(sworn to peace in battle), and gaidin(brothers to battle), we have gai as battle. Shain means sworn to peace or dedicated(same as shaiel). Da'shain the proper name for Aiel in the AoL simply adds the "da" prefix also seen in da'covale(person who is owned). So we have da'shain as "person who is sworn to peace". Then we add aiel as dedicated to reinforce that they are pledged.
Algai'd'siswai had been defined as spear fighters. So it's a tossup between algai and siswai as being the root for spears. Siswai'aman is defined by LTT as "spears owned by the dragon". So that leaves us by elimination with siswai as spear. Algai has gai(battle) and the prefix "al" also seen in al'cair dal and al'cair'rahienallan.
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Diynendmapurvene: 2012-12-23
It is true that there must be two words for spear, possibly different kinds of spears. The Inuit have over a dozen different words for snow, so it makes perfect sense. Siswai is spear, as is darei. Aman does mean dragon in the OT. Someone mentioned before that Jordan drew from some German words, including allein, another is included when Mat is being healed from the dagger from Shadar Logoth. He says "Los!" which means forward in the Old Tongue, as it does in the context of a battle in German. By the way, the only linguistic discrepency in the OT is in the first book, and that is in the inscription on the Horn of Valere. The only reason that that discrepency exsists is because that was written before Jordan had nailed down a final "version" of OT grammer and mechanics.
