Minimize Maximize

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

Read the interview

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Theories

Recent Theories

Last ten theories at Theoryland.

Padan Fain, Roommates With the Dark Oneby aNewAge

The Real Slayerby Cabadrin

How the Bore Will Be Sealedby Tremalking

The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodby Great Lord of the Dark

Callandor's Purposeby RealAshaman

Rand and the True Powerby Zombie Sammael

Caemlyn's Battleby 1eyedfool

Moghedien Raises the Deadby Truthless

Breaking the Sealsby Kamaul

Let me die forever!by Kamaul

Home | Index | Archives | Help

he Whitecloaks and Tar Valon

by Darren: 2004-03-09 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Errors in the Books

Ok.... I know my theories have a way of disappearing before I ever see them posted, but I just thought I'd throw another one in anyhow...

At the outset of the series (late EoTw till TSR) the Whitecloaks surround Tar Valon, and attempt to barricade it. Now, I'm certain I will need to go to the texts to cite actual page numbers, but does this strike anyone else as ridiculous? I mean, how powerful are the Whitecloaks, really, or is Tar Valon a truly emasculated nation (ok.. pun intended)?

I know that some will argue that the AS could not attack the Whitecloaks because of:

A) The Three Oaths

B) Fear of political ramifications from openly wielding military might...

But that's just so much bull. Tar Valon remains a nation, and the Whitecloaks are, at that point, a foreign and invading army. No nation would hold them accountable for defending their own capital city from religious fanatics... or would have trouble doing so.

It's revealed in the text that the Green Ajah have a history of circumventing the "defense only" oath by striding into battle, and there are plenty of other ways that the Power can be used to neutralize an enemy without resorting to killing. (shields, flows of air, weather, hallucinations... it's all in there)

How could they be saving their image by letting themselves be corraled like sheep? It sets a precedent for other nations to follow.

Did this strike anyone else as hokey?

You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please log in.

Comments

Tamyrlin: 2004-03-20

Dissappearing theories, we typically blame hamsters. :) Concerning the whitecloaks, I think the White Tower doesn't want to come off as the aggressor. In other words, who likes to watch a twenty year old martial artist pummel a three year old child? While I agree they could do that, I think Jordan's point is, they don't feel it is politically good to use the power to do anything that may be perceived so devastating.

charliec: 2004-03-20

Tar Valon is hardly a nation... more a city state, and while it is one of the biggest cities in Randland, we're not talking about anything like our big cities. It's population is unlikely to be more than a million, so it's going to have trouble raising it's own armies, but rather rely to a large extent on attracting fighters from elsewhere (so militarily its resources are quite similar to the Whitecloaks, except they have Amadicia to recruit in as well).

In terms of military strength then, it's fine resisting a siege. No probs. But actually going on the offensive? Way too risky, especially when it's ok sitting pretty, and there'd be political ramifications.

Next point- I'm pretty sure the whitecloaks weren't actually blockading the city, just patrolling near it's entrances and making a nuisance of themselves... so the green ajah doesn't need to stride in and drive them off, especially at a point when the tower is weak, and there are other more momentous events (wars and false dragons) to worry about. The whitecloaks just didn't pose a serious threat, as Pedron Niall was too sane to try anything.

Other nations don't like the Whitecloaks, though some fear them, so they aren't going to think much of the example set... especially when most of them get the same on their own turf when the whitecloaks come visiting.

Sorry if this seems excessively flamey... no offence ;)

Callandor: 2004-03-20

**Tar Valon remains a nation, and the Whitecloaks are, at that point, a foreign and invading army.**

Tar Valon has really never been a nation; even after the Trolloc Wars when it's influence made into into a small country. Tar Valon is an off shoot city. It is by itself, and doesn't need a country or to be one. It is the center of power,a nd power speaks for itself.

**It's population is unlikely to be more than a million, so it's going to have trouble raising it's own armies, but rather rely to a large extent on attracting fighters from elsewhere (so militarily its resources are quite similar to the Whitecloaks, except they have Amadicia to recruit in as well).**

RJ has said in interviews that the large cities of the world (Tear, Caemlyn, Cairhien, etc.) are around 500,000. Tar Valon, being the largest, I would guess to be around 600,000-750,000, but still under a million.

Also, the Tower Guard defends Tar Valon and has been on the increase since ACOS with men being brought in by boat (shown in CoT). I remember the Tower Guard being mentioned around 50,000, I think around CoT. Still imposing, especially in their own city.

I believe the Whitecloaks followed Elayne and Gawyn to Tar Valon in TGH; that is the earliest I remember them coming near the city. However, I don't think they tried to surround in, merely camped by it.

charliec: 2004-03-21

I think the Whitecloaks were mentioned to be already there, making a nuisance of themselves...

**Also, the Tower Guard defends Tar Valon and has been on the increase since ACOS with men being brought in by boat (shown in CoT). I remember the Tower Guard being mentioned around 50,000, I think around CoT. Still imposing, especially in their own city.**

That's actually a lot bigger than I would have expected, but as you say... imposing in their own city... if they were to start sending troups out of the city on aggressive forays they could easily end up in a bit of bother.

Darren: 2004-03-21

hamsters... lol

Ok... Tar Valon is definitely a nation (not quite in the modern sense of the word, but moreso than any of the others) granted it's a city-state and an oligarchy, but it mints its own coin, writes and enforces its own laws, owes allegiance to none, has its own borders. maintains its own standing army, has customs agents (Mat passes through customs in his flight from TV in TDR) and its people have a sense of patriotism (perhaps matriotism is a better word, but I digress)... what more is necessary for it to be considered a "nation?"

anyhow... I didn't say the Whitecloaks were barricading the city, but ATTEMPTING to barricade it. And they were certainly there in force.

"but he disapproved of the orders that had called him back just when a a strong push might have toppled the crippled Tower and buried the witches under the rubble." -Eamon Valda, from LoC "Red Wax"

If they had that kind of army on the outskirts of the city, then TV was certainly within its jurisdiction to crush them... I know they had some other things on their minds (Rand, deposing, etc...) but I still don't see why the Whitecloaks camped and armed en masse across the river is just thrown in the text as no big deal.... If they have no right to defend their own CITY, then they are a nation of slaves.... and the Aes Sedai are hardly that.

Unicorn: 2004-03-21

Wether or not Nation ruled from the white tower would have been called Tar Valon or not is beside the point. It is also I think beside the point why the AS did not drive the whitecloaks away(which IMO was because it, in the eyes of the world, would only prove the WC's point). I think it is a very good question WHAT WERE THEY DOING THERE. watching Elayne, Gawyn and Galad, NOT. The best shot is probably that it had to do with Logain. Why they would stay camped off the shining walls ????????, it seems pointless, Í will agree.

: 2004-03-22

I think that the White Tower just treated the Whitecloaks as a annoyance rather then an actual threat. And to be honest they were not present in numbers to do anything but hassle outlying villages.

Siuan Sanche when talking Min at the beginning of TSR about Eamon Valda 'He has no more then five hundred men close to Tar Valon, girl. He sent the rest away weeks ago, to cause trouble elsewhere'

The rest were the 'close to half a legion' under Dain Bornhalds command sent to the Two Rivers. TSR Chapter One.

So between the time the Whitecloaks followed Elayne and Gawyn to Tar Valon, and until the legion split, they had a maximum of 1000 troops in the area. Considering the size of Tar valon, this is hardly an intimidating force.

Throughout the early books the Whitecloaks are portrayed as fanatical hunters of Darkfriends, and they are grudgingly tolerated by the general population for this reason. If the White Tower were to attack them they would be playing right into the Whitecloaks arms. To them and to many others it would be seen as final proof that Aes Sedai were Darkfriends and if nothing else would provide a huge influx of recruits to the Whitecloak cause.

I agree with the point that if the White Tower was threatened in a meaningful (and conventional) way the Aes Sedai would be able to deal with it, even within the restrictions of the 3 oaths. However the Whitecloaks have never posed that kind of threat and were therefore ignored.

Dorindha: 2004-03-22

I think most of the answers have already been covered in this thread - there are several political reasons - I like the martial artist analogy best - for not doing anything about it. Also, the time they were hanging around (I don't think they being particularly aggressive - just normal whitecloaks) was when the WT was still immensely powerful, and they just wouldn't dare really challenge the might of the tower. Verin says something to that effect in tGH/tDR.

ALso, I think Dumai's Wells was the first real instance of sisters going into a battle to put themselves in danger so they could use the power. Certainly they did nothing in the Aiel war - just healing.

Caramoor: 2004-03-26

If I remember correctly, this was a good excuse for Elaida to keep the tower behind her and send Gawyn out to be occupied and out of her hair. The whitecloaks worked in Elaida's favor at the time, so why would she drive them away?

Elder Haman: 2004-03-27

If you remember, whatshisname- Bornhald? thinks to himself that it was a mistake leaving Valda in charge when he was called back to the Dome of Truth because Valda "had some fool idea about following the Daughter Heir to Tar Valon" Bornhald also hopes to himself that Valda doesn't pick a fight with the witches. So the Whitecloaks being around Tar Valon is a result of a foolish subcommander with to much authority, not part of any great plan of the Whitecloaks.

Darren: 2004-04-05

I kind of feel my point has been missed. I don't mean to say that the Whitecloaks could have toppled the tower, whatever Bornhald believes, or even that any Aes Sedai were in danger.

However, as several of you have pointed out, Tar Valon is a nation of .5+ million people, and only a thousand of those are Aes Sedai. Knocking off Novices and Accepted, that still leaves a LOT of ordinary people who whitecloaks would gladly string up as Darkfriends. Those people MUST have been worried to leave the city, which is, in a sense, the same as being frightened to leave your front door.

I can't see any ruler of any nation not acting in this situation. (Jordan even talks about the "compact" between lord and subject.) And the Tower is betraying that compact by doing nothing. This is what I meant when I said that political ramifications are just bull. What about their own people?

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-04-07

I don't recall any mention of Whitecloaks hanging any Tar Valon citizens.

There was that incident when egwene was returning to the tower, where they tried to bully an Aes Sedai...and if they are willing to do that, what else are they willing to do ?

But they do consider Aes Sedai darkfriends, not the normal run of the mill people.

Also, I'm sure they are well aware, that if they did 'hang up a darkfriend' who is a citizen of Tar Valon, then this would give the Aes Sedai a politically safe reason to act against them...as they should have been tried in Tar Valon courts.

I quite agree...the political ramifications of removing the whitecloaks 'without due cause' would be to great.

Callandor: 2004-04-07

**and if they are willing to do that, what else are they willing to do?**

Not much; remember Whitecloaks are intimitators outside their own land. The Whitecloaks know that they are in enemy territory around Tar Valon, they know how much power the Tower has, and how small a force they themselves have. It is quiet "rebellion" basically; "We're here! We're Whitecloaks! We hang witches!... Don't hurt us, please."

Darren: 2004-04-20

In what world is invading another nation with an army "rebellion"? Normally you're smarter than this, Callandor. Armed blockades and "intimidation," up to and including mortal threats are not my definition of "quiet."

On another note, where do you get this notion that the Whitecloaks are only intimidators outside of Amadicia. I'm certain that Perrin kept himself warm at nights, thinking of that, when they kidnapped him in the far north.

charliec: 2004-04-21

Darren: Perrin and Egwene were lone 'darkfriends' who made for easy pickings. Even a pack of bandits numbering as many as or more than the whitecloaks would be relatively easy pickings for a well trained set of fighting men.

The point is that outside Amadicia Whitecloaks are not in a position to properly take on targets as large as cities or nations, and work instead by bullying and intimidating at a smaller level.

Callandor: 2004-04-21

**In what world is invading another nation with an army "rebellion"? Normally you're smarter than this, Callandor. Armed blockades and "intimidation," up to and including mortal threats are not my definition of "quiet."**

Umm... ok... I was using that as an analogy...

Grearon: 2004-04-22

I think you are mistaking the definition of a nation. What you describe when you say it mints its own coin etc. is a state (a government).

Definitions of a state:

The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity.

The sphere of supreme civil power within a given polity: matters of state.

A specific mode of government: the socialist state.

A body politic, especially one constituting a nation: the states of Eastern Europe.

One of the more or less internally autonomous territorial and political units composing a federation under a sovereign government: the 48 contiguous states of the Union.

Definitions of a nation:

A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.

The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.

The government of a sovereign state.

A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: “Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity” (Robert Conquest).

A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.

The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe.

While the two are very similar, I would not call Tar Valon a nation for its lack of self identification. By this I mean very few people would consider themselves native to Tar Valon. Instead they would identify themselves with one of the other "nations" which clearly have their own customs etc. This is especially true when half of the sisters still identify themselves with their homelands. The relatively few native people to Tar Valon don't make up a nation in my mind.

Darren: 2004-04-22

charlie, I have seen NO evidence of that. Where are you getting this idea.

They are fully capable of attacking people in cities. Galad certainly had no qualms in committing his men to a full on battle with the Prophet over a boat. Nor did they have qualms to being committed. But what? He (Masema, not Galad)'s a bad guy, so that's different?

And they can scoop up "one or two" Darkfriends, but somehow I'm supposed to believe that they wouldn't do the same outside TV if they thought they could get away with it? (Every citizen is pretty much a darkfriend from birth there, in their eyes, I think) Of course they would. Yet the White Tower did nothing. Sorry, but the more I think about it, the more it doesn't wash with me.

Darren: 2004-04-30

OK... I have a little more time now to rebut a few of these:

Charliec:

*The point is that outside Amadicia Whitecloaks are not in a position to properly take on targets as large as cities or nations...*

You might try actually reading my comments again (or for the first time, I suspect.) Specifically, read these sections:

I don't mean to say that the Whitecloaks could have toppled the tower...

that still leaves a LOT of ordinary people who whitecloaks would gladly string up as Darkfriends. Those people MUST have been worried to leave the city, which is, in a sense, the same as being frightened to leave your front door.

I can't see any ruler of any nation not acting in this situation

*

Grearon: Ah, the refuge of the first year university student. Opening the dictionary to begin an argument.

If I must address your comments, here goes:

1) It is you, not I, who is confused in his terms. You say I mean "state" instead of "nation," then go on to say that "the socialist STATE" is a nation. Whatto say... what to say...

Actually, one point is all I really need, seeing the other "states" in your reply. What is the point of your failed semantics, anyhow? (ps... Tar Valon meets one of the inadequate definitions listed: A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government.... It specifically talks in the books about those "native" to Tar Valon and how they feel about themselves, and the place of their birth.)

charliec: 2004-05-01

**You might try actually reading my comments again (or for the first time, I suspect.) Specifically, read these sections:**

mmm, getting a bit feisty? ;-)

The thing is Callandor's right:

**The Whitecloaks know that they are in enemy territory around Tar Valon, they know how much power the Tower has, and how small a force they themselves have. It is quiet "rebellion" basically; "We're here! We're Whitecloaks! We hang witches!... Don't hurt us, please."**

They know that they are a small force beside a giant which doesn't view them as a threat (it's even mentioned that the whitecloaks can enter the city and drink in the taverns as long as they don't cause trouble).

Yes the whitecloaks are capable of attacking cities, but not in normal circumstances, and not with small forces like Valda's... when Pedron Niall plans to destabilise and topple the nations round Almoth Plain it means committing a large portion of his resources into an already unstable region.

**They are fully capable of attacking people in cities. Galad certainly had no qualms in committing his men to a full on battle with the Prophet over a boat. Nor did they have qualms to being committed. But what? He (Masema, not Galad)'s a bad guy, so that's different? **

Galad represented an anomaly, he was acting for different reasons, without regard for the consequences (typically!). When they came, the consequences were dire, and not really beneficial for the whitecloaks either.

Going back to your original questions-

**I mean, how powerful are the Whitecloaks, really, or is Tar Valon a truly emasculated nation (ok.. pun intended)? **

Really, in most circumstances, the Whitecloaks simply are not that powerful, and though they hate Tar Valon with a vengeance few of them are foolish/zealous enough to pull the mountains down on their heads by stepping too far over the line. BUT to some extent Tar Valon is also 'emasculated' because they wield most of their influence through manipulation, and can't afford the bad press of being involved in such a fight...

You say that no-one would blame them for such a well justified military action. I agree that while no-one SHOULD blame them, you can never trust the tabloids.

: 2004-05-02

Callandor is often right, but not on this one. If it is "quiet rebellion," and they are there solely for purposes of intimidation, then why do they fight with the Younglings?

Oh, I suppose that's different. As to the notion that Whitecloaks, outside of Amadicia only engage in intimidation, you continue to ignore my challenge to provide evidence from the texts for this. Perrin and Egwene? Doesn't count? Fighting the Prophet? Let's see, a small force, fighting a fanatical and determined enemy.... that's the work of bullies... Yeah, it was Galad leading them, but don't forget that Galad is what the Whitecloaks are SUPPOSED to be.

Let's see other evidence from the texts:

Whitecloaks don't abduct people outside Amadicia (excepting Perrin, who was "alone and far from eyes" (my eyes rolling))?

**"What have we here? Someone who does not wish to be seen? What do you --? Ah!" ....Bornhald nodded with obvious satisfaction. "Clearly, Watchman, I have saved you from a great disaster. These are Darkfriends you were about to help escape from the Light..... I will take these ruffians to our camp, that they may be questioned in the Light -- instead of you, yes?" The Eye of the World, "Strangers and Friends." (ellipsed for brevity)

Now I don't know about you, but I'd call that pretty much right in the face of authority. And the last time I checked, Andor was not Amadicia, so there goes that whole, only bulliers theory.

Earlier in the same chapter, Dain Bornhald has an encounter with Rand:

**Bornhald turned his attention back to Rand. The light of knowing burned in his eyes. "Darkfriends do not escape us, youngling, even in a town that stands in the Shadow. We will meet again. You may be sure of it!"**

Is there a place that stands greater in the Shadow, to the minds of Whitecloaks, than Tar Valon? For many, it seems to loom larger than Shayol Ghul... The problem with you all is that you're acting as though Whitecloaks are rational, reasonable individuals, and you are more than hinting that they are cowards.

Whitecloaks are neither. Many are insane, and as a whole the unit is well on its way to becoming another Aridhol. Do not forget that they EXPECT the Last Battle to be Whitecloaks against Aes Sedai, so the whole idea that they won't attack AS because they "know they'll be beat" is ludicrous. Sure they'd be beat, but they don't believe that, and that makes a great deal of difference.

Let me remind you again that Valda (the commanding officer at the time) GENUINELY BELIEVED he was capable of "toppling" Tar Valon at the time, and regretted being called away. Yet you argue that because he is "obviously wrong," that he would hesitate to do it. I'm sorry, but that's nonsense.

As to the notion that Whitecloaks automatically back down from Aes Sedai, let's save time and go back to that same chapter:

**

"Aes Sedai, Bornhald shouted, and five swords flashed from their sheaths. "Die!" The other four hesitated, but he slashed at her in the same motion that cleared his sword.

**

You're all right, they could not have expected to win, but they all drew their swords, and one attacked without hesitation. Why? Because they GENUINELY BELIEVE that killing Aes Sedai is doing the work of the righteous, and is necessary to save the world from the Shadow. But you're still going to argue that they might abduct lone Tar Valon non-channeling civilians at night? Don't waste my time. Make no mistake, they would.

Let me be clear. The Whitecloaks in Tar Valon are not there in "quiet rebellion," it is guerilla warfare, if it must be called anything. I don't understand how, in a world of suicide bombers, you continue to argue against the obviousness of this.

Callandor: 2004-05-02

**The problem with you all is that you're acting as though Whitecloaks are rational, reasonable individuals, and you are more than hinting that they are cowards.

Whitecloaks are neither. Many are insane, and as a whole the unit is well on its way to becoming another Aridhol. Do not forget that they EXPECT the Last Battle to be Whitecloaks against Aes Sedai, so the whole idea that they won't attack AS because they "know they'll be beat" is ludicrous. Sure they'd be beat, but they don't believe that, and that makes a great deal of difference.**

Many are insane?! Where the heck are you getting this? Pedron Niall, is insane? Really. To me, he seems like the logical, rational, militaristic general leader which he is. He is not insane at all; his beliefs are different.

And no, the Whitecloak version of the Last Battle is not against Aes Sedai.

**TITLE: Lord of Chaos

CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

Pedron Niall was feeling quite good as he dismounted in the main courtyard of the Fortress of the Light and tossed his reins to a stableman. Morgase was well in hand, and he had not had to lie once. He did not like lying. It had all been his own interpretation of events, but he was sure of it. Rand al'Thor was a false Dragon and a tool of the Tower. The world was full of fools who could not think. The Last Battle would not be some titanic struggle between the Dark One and a Dragon Reborn, a mere man. The Creator had abandoned mankind to its own devices long ago. No, when Tarmon Gai'don came, it would be as in the Trolloc Wars two thousand years ago and more, when hordes of Trollocs and other Shadowspawn poured out of the Great Blight, tore through the Borderlands and nearly drowned humanity in a sea of blood. He did not mean to let mankind face that divided and unprepared.**

**Let me remind you again that Valda (the commanding officer at the time) GENUINELY BELIEVED he was capable of "toppling" Tar Valon at the time, and regretted being called away. Yet you argue that because he is "obviously wrong," that he would hesitate to do it. I'm sorry, but that's nonsense.**

Would he think that? Of course. Could he? Not in a life time. People think one thing and do another quite often.

Darren: 2004-05-03

I said "many," not all, Callandor.

Certainly I don't think Niall was insane. However, I do think the younger Bornhald is, and well, Asunawa certainly is. Valda... Not "insane" precisely, but certainly neither rational nor reasonable. This is a man who all but raped the queen of Andor. Sure she was a captive, but that's still not exactly the work of a man who worries a lot about consequences. Carridin's a Darkfriend.... and what's his name, that ropy guy who hates Perrin... he's the same sort of fanatic as Masema.

So, aside from Galad, how many other Whitecloaks do we see in the series? If what we have seen so far is a representative example, then I feel quite justified in my statements.

charliec: 2004-05-03

Valda's fanaticism represents an extreme among the whitecloaks, which few seem to share... Dain Bornhald and Byar do, but in that scene in Baerlon of nine whitecloaks FOUR hold back when face to face with an Aes Sedai, and only one actually attacks.

We are told at least once elsewhere that whitecloaks will attempt to kill a lone Aes Sedai they encounter, so the attack in Baerlon is perhaps not surprising. We are also told that they will do it if they think they won't be seen, or if they think they can get away with it. The implication is again that few are fanatical to throw their lives away, even to kill a hated witch. Dain Bornhald, Valda, and others at the extremes are unusual cases.

All the events in Baerlon are instances of whitecloaks blustering where thay have no real authority, we are told that the governor is only allowing a handful into the city at a time, but do they storm the place? No, they know that the Queens guards would hunt them down and kill them, instead the few who are allowed in bluster about and do what? Oh yes, they intimidate as many as they can, I think an old lady is accused of being Aes Sedai or something, and for the most part people avoid them because they cause trouble.

Rand gets on the wrong side of them, but they can't do much about it until they bump into him at the gate.

Here they do challenge the authorities, yes, but only because they are at the fringe- the outskirts of the city, at night, outnumbering their opponents (there's only one wathcman I think)- they did not dare step further over the line than this.

**Callandor is often right, but not on this one. If it is "quiet rebellion," and they are there solely for purposes of intimidation, then why do they fight with the Younglings?

Oh, I suppose that's different.**

Yup, that IS different. these skirmishes didn't happen until after the trouble in the tower, when a bunch of rash, half-controlled young soldiers was created, furthermore we get the impression that Elaida wastrying to get Gawyn killed, and that Gawyn was making rather a nuisance of himself. This IS a different case, and doesn't represent the normal order of the tower at the time of the events you first asked about.

**Fighting the Prophet? Let's see, a small force, fighting a fanatical and determined enemy.... that's the work of bullies... Yeah, it was Galad leading them, but don't forget that Galad is what the Whitecloaks are SUPPOSED to be. **

Don't be silly, we're not talking about what the whitecloaks are supposed to be, but about what they are, and Galad is even more anomalous than Byar, Bornhald, and Valda put together. Even if we do use this event it doesn't support your idea, because by getting involved in these events Galad was not doing what he was supposed to under whitecloak orders.

**The problem with you all is that you're acting as though Whitecloaks are rational, reasonable individuals, and you are more than hinting that they are cowards. **

We know from their scent in Perrin's PoV that there's something wrong with whitecloaks, fanaticism and distorted religious zeal, but that doesn't make them insane, stupid, or even particularly foolish. I'm struggling to think of an examples where whitecloaks actually force a fight in a situation where they don't have the advantage due to numbers or training. Toman Head I suppose, but here Bornhald is attempting to repel an invading army, he's not sure of the odds, and realises that if he loses this fight is still worthwhile.

We're not calling the whitecloaks cowards, but they are usually sensible enough not to deliberately pick fights they can't win.

Darren: 2004-05-04

"Valda's fanaticism represents an extreme among the whitecloaks, which few seem to share... Dain Bornhald and Byar do"

OK... charliec, I've had enough of you making empirical statements without backing them up with quotes. When I make a statement, I provide examples and names from the text. And then you make a grand sweeping statement (such as the above) without evidence. Opinion without evidence is gossip.

We have seen TWO whitecloaks who aren't fanatics. Pedron Niall and the older Lord Bornhald. The latter, however, was certainly not above abduction in the dark, which continues to go against your point.... but I'll let that go for now. Both are currently deceased. The others I listed are ALL commanders, all in positions of considerable power, and their orders are to be obeyed by the majority of the whitecloaks.

Demandred: 2004-05-07

The whole Whitecloak society is IMO based on fanatism. Even Pedron Diall was a fanatic in his belief of the world. He may have been by far more intelligent than the usual whitecloak officer and he was able to exploit the traits of his subordinates to his advantage - but what we got from his PoV was still the visions of a fanatic.

Same goes with Old Lord Captain Bornald - even if he was partially disillusioned.

But this is not the point.

Darren, why are you so agressive? Only because you quote the book and give us *your* interpretation doesnt make it more true than other people giving their oppinion without a quote. Lets keep it a healthy discussion, okay? ;)

Yes, Tar Valon could have acted on the Whitecloaks - but they did not cause it was not utterly neccassary and it would have been a great risk. The reason given in the discussion so far is sound to me.

But one point in addition - Till then it was not the way of the Aes Sedai to work directly in the open. They scheemed and worked from behind the scenes for centuries. Changing this would have taken more than a legion of Whitecloaks causing trouble IMO.

Rhodric: 2004-05-25

in answer to the original theory:

there would be massive political backlash for the WT if the AS fought the whitecloaks (WCs) off. By fighting off the WCs using the OP, this would add weight to the WC's idea that "those darn witches are the spawn of the DO."

Scenario: Whitecloaks surround TV, and attempt to barricade it. AS come out and walk into the WC camp. The WC's start a battle and hence the AS can fight for their self-defense (Green Ajah trick). AS (inevitably) win the skirmish, WC's flee.

WC's then tell the world how "the Witches used the OP to slaughter us." they are viewed as martyrs, so that more are pulled to their cause. WC numbers rise, eventually enough to take down all the witches (discounting here the rest of the series with swelling AS numbers).

The AS see this as a possible scenario, so they take no action. To use a stupid analogy:

Little Kid comes up to Big Expert of kung-fu.

"you suck Big guy, fight me!" says the little kid, starts hitting the Big Expert.

Expert thinks for a moment, patiently taking the kids punches, and realises that if he fights back this kid will cry to mama, and Big Expert would get in trouble. then he says "nah kid you aint worth it" and contines to to absorb Kid's punches.

The fear of political ramifications that the AS have are justified. It's not just any nation that we have here, it's a nation viewed by many in the world as a bully nation of witches. The AS don't want to give any justification to that point of view, so they remain pacifistic.

to others:

~Rhodric steps onto soapbox~

why have you wasted time getting into the semantics of the word "nation"? does it have any bearing on the rest of the theory? so Tar Valon is a city-state, not a nation-state. Big deal! as Darren mentioned it has all the same features of a nation-state (customs etc.) so why waste time arguing about it?

~steps down from soapbox~

Theoryland of the Wheel of Time

hardcore fan freaks of the wheel of time