he Hall of Servants
by Ozymandias: 2005-10-17 | 4.5 out of 10 (10 votes)
I came across this quote from some guide or another in a different post.
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: Be'lal
"Some fragments indicate that he was among those who razed the Hall of the Servants, destroying it just days before the strike that sealed him, and the other Forsaken, in the Bore"
Now, if this is the case, and Be'lal and the other Forsaken DID raze the Hall of the Servants, then it would have been destroyed Anyways, when Rand goes into Rhuidean and the crystal columns, one of his memories is of a Da'shain Aiel entering the Hall of the Servants for the final time. “Jonai hurried down the empty streets, trying not to look at the shattered buildings and dead chora trees. At least the last of the long abandoned jo-cars had been hauled away. Aftershocks still troubled the ground beneath his feet. He wore his work clothes, his cadin’sor, of course, though the work he had been given was nothing he had trained for. He was sixty three, in the prime of life, not yet old enough for gray hairs, yet he felt like a tired old man. No one questioned his entering the Hall of the Servants†(The Shadow Rising; The Dedicated). The contradiction is clear. We KNOW that the events seen in the glass columns occur after the sealing of the Bore, and we KNOW that the Bore is sealed AFTER the Hall of Servants has been razed.
Here is my theory. The Hall of the Servants, which has been (at least for me) associated with an AoL White Tower, isn't really a single physical entity like the White Tower is. The “Servants†referred to are the Aes Sedai in their entirety, and there is no physical “Hall†from which they are all trained or located at/in. The physical Hall of the Servants is more in the nature of an embassy, a place for Aes Sedai to find haven in every city. Or not haven, since that implies a threat to them (which there wasn't during the AoL), but more of a meeting place for Aes Sedai to mingle with other Aes Sedai and be with their peers. Thus these meeting places became known as a Hall for the Servants, or the Hall of the Servants. This then evolved over time into a general way of referring to Aes Sedai; when discussing the entire Aes Sedai community, they were known as the Hall of the Servants.
My attempt to explain the contradiction, based on what I just said, is this. When Be’lal, and the other Forsaken, “raze†the Hall of the Servants, they are merely destroying the fabric of the Aes Sedai community. We know from a short story RJ published a while back that the time directly before the Sealing of the Bore was fraught with dissension among all Aes Sedai, especially male and female, on how to properly contain the threat posed by the Dark One.
"The Hall of the Servants, the ruling body of the Aes Sedai, quickly divided into two camps, and those who supported one plan opposed the other. Support for using the great sa’angreal, and opposition to placing seals, was led by a woman named Latra Posae Decume, who finally gathered every female Aes Sedai of significant strength in what much later would come to be called the Fateful Concord. No woman in the agreement would support or take part in Lews Therin’s plan, thus killing it, or so it was thought.†(The Strike on Shayol Ghul).
The constant defeats at the hands of the Shadow destroyed Aes Sedai morale, and led to them playing the blame game amongst themselves. This means that the Hall of the Servants has effectively been destroyed, since there was no longer a feeling of goodwill and shared sense of community among the Aes Sedai. That handles the part about the destruction of the Hall of the Servants.
The second part, explaining why Joran thinks he is entering the Hall of the Servants for the last time, is more easily explained. He is probably entering one of the aforementioned embassy/communal places for Aes Sedai, this one located in Paaren Disen. He realizes that the Aes Sedai are now effectively broken, since the males have gone insane, and that no one will ever trust them again. Therefore, the purpose of those embassies is now gone, since Aes Sedai have become reviled by the general populace, who thinks they caused the Breaking. Therefore, it is the last time he will see the Hall of the Servants, since the Aes Sedai community has collapsed.
Please feel free to rip this apart with any quotations from the BWB or any other source I haven’t read (a.k.a. anything other than the main 11 books or the Strike on Shayol Ghul). Or, for that matter, anything I overlooked in the other books.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-17
I don't have time to go back and read that part of the Shadow Rising. However, we do know that Rand did see the moment the Bore occurred. So, some of those memories, experiences were from before the Sealing. I thought this one that you mentioned was before the Sealing, but I am sure others will come and comment on this supposed error. Otherwise, I like the ideas that each city had its own meeting place, potentially. It is not uncommon to refer to "temples" or other such meeting places that exist in a variety of locations and serve the same purpose, even built in the same manner/design. But, I am more prone to believe it was a mistake, if it was, because I believe there was a Hall of Servants, and it was the one that was razed, that Rand saw.
2
Ozymandias: 2005-10-17
I think that Rand saw the Collam Daan being destroyed... his memory of entering the Hall of the Servants was most assuredly post-Sealing.
3
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-17
I have a big theory on this. The last time I brought it up Callandor and I got into on the message boards and someone calculated that it would have been at least 63 years between this razing of the Hall and Joran leaving. While, it's possible that this is a Hall of Servants consulate, it's more likely that the Hall of Servants was rebuilt during the war.
At least I think so. Callandor might disagree...*shock* :p
4
Callandor: 2005-10-18
**I have a big theory on this. The last time I brought it up Callandor and I got into on the message boards and someone calculated that it would have been at least 63 years between this razing of the Hall and Joran leaving. While, it's possible that this is a Hall of Servants consulate, it's more likely that the Hall of Servants was rebuilt during the war.**
There were two instances of the Hall being raised at Forsaken hands (one at least being victory "at Paaran Disen"), but we do have the one viewing of the Aiel seeing the Hall definately post-sealing (after all, the Aes Sedai are worrying over the taint, and mad male channelers coming near them).
63 years is far too long I would say. The implication is that the Aiel are just leaving the city, it's all abandoned, and male channelers are on the loose trying to do what they do while mad. It's very early breaking.
Plus, it was more than a collective gathering that was the Hall of Servants. There were just more than one. The main one, was in Paaran Disen:
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
According to all sources, the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends had a very loose sort of organization. To what extent that organization was part of the world government is not known; clearly the Aes Sedai were highly influential, with considerable power, at least at times, but equally clearly they were not the entire government and did not necessarily dominate it. They had their own internal governing structure through the Hall of the Servants, which was the core of the guild that controlled and regulated all those who could channel. This guild had branches in every city, town and village that housed Aes Sedai. In large cities the guild hall was usually an impressive building. In small towns or villages the guild often met in someones home, temporarily dedicated for that purpose. The main Hall of the Servants, located in the capital city of Paaran Disen, was described in one holographic fragment as having massive columned entrances, large ornate doorways, and polished floors of glowing white elstone.**
**TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
Paaran Disen, central seat of government and crown jewel of them all, not only contained wonders of architectural genius among its spires and towers, but also the Hall of the Servants with its columns and shimmering elstone.**
I would still say it's an error by RJ though.
5
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-18
ok, Callandor, how about I put it another way.
Doesn't Jonai think to himself that this will be the last time he's in the Hall of Servants? The Hall, not a hall.
Next why would the greatest stash of all the angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal be anywhere but Pareen Disen? Would they have had the time to go around and grab everything and move it to one of the smaller ones or does it not make more sense just to have the vault in Pareen Disen?
And last but not least, how about a quote directly from the books.
The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 - The Dedicated.
Solinda Sedai to Jonai:
"Go now, Jonai. I want you far from Paaren Disen by tomorrow."
6
drz1649: 2005-10-18
no, it's a mistake. Jolan meets some female Aes Sedai who are worried about the taint and crazed male Aes Sedai. Someshta is also there, and his guardianship of the pure Saidin at the Eye of the World is discussed. so the Forsaken were already sealed away.
you may argue that this was some secondary Hall, or that Bel'al did not raze a physical structure but rather a social network. but the way it is written (Bel'al razed the Hall, days before he was sealed) so strongly suggests one incident of a physical assault on a real building/location that it's hard to credibly argue any other way.
7
Ozymandias: 2005-10-18
but drz... the whole point of the theory is that that is impossible. We know for a fact Be'lal helps raze the Hall, before he is Sealed, obviously. And yet post-Sealing... the Hall is magically reconstructed. Aes Sedai won't be building anything during the Breaking, so saying its been rebuilt isnt valid either. This is just an oft-repeated mistake on the part of Jordan, or there was more than one Hall of the Servants (with the one in the Capitol of Paaren Disen obviously being the main one).
Also, just as a note... someone was talking about Paaran Disen being razed to the ground. This didn't happen. We know that Lews Therin soundly defeated Ishamael before the gates of Paaran Disen. Apparently it was one of the greatest victories for the Light in the entire war
8
Balinor: 2005-10-18
Has RJ ever come out and said how much time elapsed between Sealing the Bore and the Breaking of the World? I remember one of those memories, it must be Jonai's father, or a much younger Jonai, seeing the revelry and chaos when it is announced that the War is over (obviously, right after the Sealing). He gets punched in the mouth by a soldier or something, and runs home to find his grandfather hung by a mob because he used to serve Mierin (Lanfear). Obviously, some time passes between the Sealing and the Breaking. So, after you win a war, you rebuild. You would probably start with the Hall of the Servants, since it is an important building. With Aes Sedai using the One Power, it shouldn't take them long to rebuild the Hall. I think we also need to look at the wording RJ has chosen. "Razed" implies that an actual building has been destroyed, since nothing else can really be "razed". If he was talking about the Hall of the Servants as an organization, why didn't he say Be'lal "destroyed" the Hall of the Servants, or "disbanded" the Hall, or otherwise implied that is was an organization? He uses the word "razed", whose primary definition is to level to the ground or demolish. Clearly, he's talking about a structure.
9
Ozymandias: 2005-10-18
Yes... but at the moment of the Sealing, the Hundred Companions go mad and begin the Breaking. After that, female Aes Sedai have no time to rebuild anything at all, they have to save the world from being totally wrecked. And there was no time before, since the Hall was razed only a few days before the Sealing. Logically, there just isn't enough time for a structure as huge and ornate as the Hall of the Servants to be rebuilt.
10
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-18
Actually there was some time. I think it's in the BWB, but it took time to discover that saidin was tainted and that men other than the 100 were going mad.
11
Stone Dog: 2005-10-18
Just to back up Shadowbane, the reference regarding the beginning of the Breaking is The Guide. I'm paraphrasing, but it states that although LTT and the 100 Companions went mad and started destroying things as soon as the seals were placed on the Bore, it was a while before ALL male Aes Sedai went mad from the taint.
**Unlike the Companions, most male Aes Sedai were not affected immediately. Some time passed before other men began going insane, and still more before anyone realized the cause. While some sources date the Breaking from the major destruction caused by Lews Therin and the survivors of the Hundred Companions, others put the real beginning as much as ten years later, when so many male Aes Sedai had succumbed to the taint, adding their nightmares to the destruction, that there was no longer any hope of stopping it. If there ever had been.
Civilization maintained some cohesion for a good many years after the strike at Shayol Ghul, of course, though the decline into barbarism was inevitable.**
The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time Ch 8 "The Breaking of the World
In the end, I think that the conflicting evidence is a simple mistake by RJ. However, there is nothing stating that the Hall wasn't rebuilt in those 10 years after the Bore was sealed. It was an important structure and it makes sense for the Aes Sedai to rebuild what is essentially their headquarters to celebrate a seeming victory over the Shadow.
12
Ozymandias: 2005-10-18
they rebuilt it exactly the same? And the entire city of Paaran Disen? The entire city is still there around the Hall, but I doubt there was time to rebuild all of that. And if the Shadow broke into Paaran Disen to raze the Hall, I'm sure they destroyed other parts of the city as well.
13
Davian93: 2005-10-18
****And if the Shadow broke into Paaran Disen to raze the Hall, I'm sure they destroyed other parts of the city as well. ****
Not necessarily. LTT defeated Ishy before the gates of Paaren Disen, not inside the city. A couple of Forsaken could have Traveled to the Hall in a raid and razed it while Ishy was being defeated outside the city. If the Hall was the only thing destroyed, it very well could have been rebuilt.
14
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-18
As I've discussed before with Callandor, they might not have. You're not thinking about it correctly. This is a tactical strike. They wouldn't have wasted time on anything else, unless it cost them nothing. Their objective was the Hall of Servants in Pareen Disen. Anything else was a bonus. The only modern comparison I can think of is the World Trade Center attacks. Their objective was to take out a singular visible target. Collateral damage is all well and good, but only if it doesn't conflict with the target. Further, once the Hall was destroyed I'm guessing that Lews Therin and others probably weren't just gonna sit around on their thumbs, so they probably didn't leave those that made the attack much of a chance to find other targets to hit. Also if you're one of the Forsaken are you really gonna risk your life just for the chance of blowing up another building? The Hall's gone. The terror is struck into the heart of the foe. Why risk your life when the job's done?
Oh, and btw, in ww2 bombed factories and other industrial centers that were leveled were back up to full operating capacity within 6 weeks. Granted, it'd take longer with something like the Hall of Servants, but then again they can channel, the Germans couldn't. It wouldn't take that long to rebuild the Hall and they'd have to rebuild it, because it's a symbol.
15
Davian93: 2005-10-18
****Granted, it'd take longer with something like the Hall of Servants, but then again they can channel, the Germans couldn't. ****
That we know of...
Seriously though, SBX is completely right. The WTC attacks is a perfect example of what could have happened with the Hall of the Servants. We could take it further and guess that maybe they were attempting to capture high ranking members of the Hall or perhaps steal ter'angreal, sa'angreal, and angreal that may have been there. A quick in and out plus razing it to destroy any evidence of what they were after. Plus, as SBX stated, its a great psychological blow to the Light to essentially have their White House destroyed.
16
Callandor: 2005-10-18
**Doesn't Jonai think to himself that this will be the last time he's in the Hall of Servants? The Hall, not a hall.**
SBX, where did you not see that I said I attribute it to an error on RJ's part? I know it's the Hall of Servants -- we also have references to the Forsaken sacking the city and the Hall. One of them didn't happen or happened in another context or happened at a different time.
**Also, just as a note... someone was talking about Paaran Disen being razed to the ground. This didn't happen. We know that Lews Therin soundly defeated Ishamael before the gates of Paaran Disen. Apparently it was one of the greatest victories for the Light in the entire war**
Yes, Lews Therin defeated Ishamael there -- but we also know that at least Moghedien had victory there. There were obviously more than one battle for the city.
**He gets punched in the mouth by a soldier or something, and runs home to find his grandfather hung by a mob because he used to serve Mierin (Lanfear).**
This was the day of the Strike at Shayol Ghul -- not after the war (technically, yes, but it wasn't like 3 years after it; merely hours or at most a day).
**. I'm paraphrasing, but it states that although LTT and the 100 Companions went mad and started destroying things as soon as the seals were placed on the Bore, it was a while before ALL male Aes Sedai went mad from the taint.**
Yes it took time for all of them to go mad -- but there is no doubt that the first 100 Companions going mad actually started the Breaking.
**As I've discussed before with Callandor, they might not have. You're not thinking about it correctly. This is a tactical strike. They wouldn't have wasted time on anything else, unless it cost them nothing. Their objective was the Hall of Servants in Pareen Disen.**
That's if Ishamael's attack was the same as the other Forsaken's attack. Ishamael was clearly defeated -- Moghedien shows joy at the victory there. They can't be one in the same. There were two attacks.
**Oh, and btw, in ww2 bombed factories and other industrial centers that were leveled were back up to full operating capacity within 6 weeks. Granted, it'd take longer with something like the Hall of Servants, but then again they can channel, the Germans couldn't. It wouldn't take that long to rebuild the Hall and they'd have to rebuild it, because it's a symbol.**
I doubt the Aes Sedai had a whole section of labor force doing it ;)
17
: 2005-10-19
"Oh, and btw, in ww2 bombed factories and other industrial centers that were leveled were back up to full operating capacity within 6 weeks. Granted, it'd take longer with something like the Hall of Servants, but then again they can channel, the Germans couldn't. It wouldn't take that long to rebuild the Hall and they'd have to rebuild it, because it's a symbol."
But then... Age of Legends people don't have gasoline and giants cranes and such. The point is this. The Shadow was winning, overwhelmingly, when the Chosen were sealed up (which is about a week after this happens, according to the Guide). There is no need for them to make a "tactical strike", when they know that any forces dragged away from the front lines means they can break through and wn everything. Just thinking tactically, of course.
I am almost 100% convinced it was a mistake, but I can't see there being one Hall. Rationale being this.
It takes TIME to build such an impressive structure. I mean, why even care, or why would the Shadow destroy it and it only, if it only takes a few months to rebuild? It takes years. Years which they don't have, after the Sealing. Even if only about 70 male channelers go mad immediately, and then a couple of hundred more every few years, they still are going to need to put all their effort into saving what can be saved from those channelers.
18
ShadowbaneX: 2005-10-19
Actually they did have cranes. They might not have had gasoline, but that's no problem because they would have used the one power to, well, power them instead. If we could rebuild a factory in 6 weeks, they could rebuild the hall of servents without too much trouble.
19
Anubis: 2005-10-19
you know...if you drop a bomb on a house... it can still survive. Sure, its a house with holes in the roof and walls missing... but you can stil camp there.
20
Joar Addam Nessosin: 2005-10-19
With regards the razing of Paaren Disen, this did happen. It's in tFoH. Sammael recieved the name "Destroyer of hope" for betrating the Gates of Hevan, resulting in the destruction of the city. This may or may not be the time when the Hall was razed as mentioned in the BWB, but it looks likely.
21
Davian93: 2005-10-20
****Sammael recieved the name "Destroyer of hope" for betrating the Gates of Hevan, resulting in the destruction of the city. This may or may not be the time when the Hall was razed as mentioned in the BWB, but it looks likely. ****
IIRC, Sammael did betray the Gate of Hevan but that doesnt necessarily mean the city fell. It could have been more like Benedict Arnold betraying West Point. A top General of the Light betraying the Cause would "destroy hope" without necessarily destroying the city.
22
Callandor: 2005-10-21
Wrong city.
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 44 - The Lesser Sadness
"Sammael," Rand said, but not in answer. He was just speaking the thoughts that drifted through the Void. "I remember when he was first named Destroyer of Hope. After he betrayed the Gates of Hevan and carried the Shadow down into the Rorn M?doi and the heart of Satelle. Hope did seem to die that day. Culan Cuhan wept. What is wrong?" Asmodean's face had gone as white as Sulin's hair; he only shook his head mutely. Rand peered at the pavilion. Whoever was speaking now, he did not know her. "Is that where they are waiting for me? Then I should join them."**
23
Ozymandias: 2005-10-21
Right city.
Eye of the World, Prologue:
"You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen."
Thats Ishy.
BWB, Age of Legends:
"It is mentioned that the Dragon soundly defeated Elan Morin Tendronai at the gates of Paaran Disen"
If you weren't referring to my post, forgive me
24
JakOShadows: 2005-10-21
It seems like an error by RJ. Because if the hall of servants is as big as it implies it would take a lot of resources to repair. But then again, it is entirely possible to use the hall of servants after it is razed if it still is in halfway decent condition, but the fact that he worded that way implies comlete destruction, not just a little redecorating. So most likely, RJ made a mistake.
25
a dragonburned fool: 2005-10-28
Of course they repaired the Paaran Disen despite of the mad men and despite of the war against the remeinders of the Shadow's forces after the Sealing of the Bore. Paaran Disen was evacuated more than half century after the LTT's strike, and all that time it functioned as capitol of the world. We see how the da'shain Aiel build Rhuidean in a bare desert under even much worse conditions than the Aes Sedai in Paaran Disen had. The da'shain in Rhuidean had no technology at all and only two old Aes Sedai and extreme poverty. The Paaran Disen just after the Sealing had the whole power of the female Aes Sedai and of the male Sedai who were not in the numbers of the 100 companions (i.e. the majority of the male Aes Sedai were still sane and active) and the wartime economics of the Light's forces with the technology still active. How would they be unable to achieve something that the poor da'shain achieved in Rhuidean under much worse conditions?
26
Feikki: 2005-10-31
I seem to remember reading that the hall of servants was razed and rebuilt several times during the war of the power. I might be mistaken but let's see if anybody recalls a source after seeing this.
27
JakOShadows: 2005-11-01
adbf:
I was just wondering if they would have the resources to put to the repairing. It's not that they couldn't do it, just that at war time they would be putting all their technology and resources to fighting a war. But it being a capital and home base it is possible, I do have to admit they would at least try to repair if they could. So I do see your side of it. I guess it's just not something I would tried to repair in war.
28
a dragonburned fool: 2005-11-02
***I was just wondering if they would have the resources to put to the repairing. It's not that they couldn't do it, just that at war time they would be putting all their technology and resources to fighting a war. But it being a capital and home base it is possible, I do have to admit they would at least try to repair if they could.***
They have the resources. If da'shain can build Rhuidean in the desert under much worse conditions, then Aes Sedai have the resources to repair the Hall. Would they because of the war? The Rhuidean example is speaking again for "yes". In the decision to build Rhuidean we see both what think AoL-style minded Aes Sedai and what think da'shain (a capable to work group that will never participate in the war as such) about building high-standard buildings even under very bad conditions.
29
Madoc Comadrin: 2005-11-09
As another example, the Stone of Tear was created during the Breaking. So I think it very possible that the Hall could be rebuilt before the Breaking gets even into full swing.
30
Bayle: 2005-11-09
I just don't see why this contraversy is so huge... to me, when Jonai refers to "The Hall of Servants" and it being his last time there, it could just as easily be a barn for all I care. So the original structure was raised, and they built something, not like the original, to stand in its place, to act as a NEW hall of servants. It would still hold the same significant meaning to him, just not be in the same building... just a thought.
31
Chrono: 2005-11-10
In my opininon, it's quite possible that the Hall was not rebuilt, it just wasn't fully destroyed in the first place, perhaps just the main part of it was destryoed, and hte part that Joran enters is just a front bit that escaped the destruction.
32
smokinbrigand: 2007-12-05
Look at it this way is our goverment in one building.The hall of the servents could be a complex of buildings. Maybe he raised only part of the hall. Like destroying the senate building.
33
Paaran Disen: 2009-11-01
I think that if there is a meeting place in each city, it would have been like a chapter house or convent. But I think there would have been a main one, located in Paaran Disen, which would have housed the area for the main gathering of the Servants, or the ruling body of the servants
34
fbcaptain34: 2011-10-07
In my opinion this is not an error; there is a line in ToM where Egwene is reflecting on being the Amrylin Seat while looking upon the Amyrlin Seat (the actual chair), and she goes on to reflect that the Hall of the Tower meets inside a room known as the Hall of the Tower. I think that the physical location was razed, and in Rand's memory he is meeting with the actual Aes Sedai that make up the hall.
