1
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-28
This is a fun idea. When you can't beat them, sign them up, and give them power. The question is, would Fain go over to the DO? He still seems pretty pissed off about his treatment, and he is doing fine on his own. It is possible that the DO is now allowing Fain to exist to cause problems, but would Fain sell himself...hmm, did he already sell his soul to the DO? This would be a good question for RJ, was Fain connected to the DO, or, if Fain had died before becoming Mordeth, would the DO have had control over his soul?
2
Callandor: 2003-07-28
No. The books have pretty much been set up as Rand vs. Ishamael/Moridin from the get go.
Fain doesn't work for the DO. Slayer chasing him on orders as of TSR, and the threat still being held in WH by Slayer and Moridin saying so.
The Lord of Chaos is Rand. The DO wanted Fain to find Rand and control him if not kill him. His plan was working till he went to SL. It wasn't a planned trip, Fain was forced to go by need of following Rand. Also, one of the Forsaken could easily handle Fain I believe, Rand has had trouble due to circumstances (surrounded by Fog, and in a place he can't channel). One weave of Air, a slice of Air and he's decapitated.
Rand is going against Moridin, and Fain is going against Shaidar Haran in my mind.
3
Vaughn882: 2003-07-28
You forget Moridin that Fain is more of an Aridhol evil now. Aridhol evil is still evil, but its a man-made evil that directly opposes the DO. It is a different kind of an evil, an evil that was spawned to fight the evil of the DO. Aridhol evil opposes the DO as much as the light does, in an even more aggresive way. So I doubt that fain would ever go back to the DO, or if the DO would even join with fain.
Also, how do you expect Fain to kill moridin? He can't channel, and other than having the dagger and being strangely fast, we don't know of any special abilities fain has, especially any that would allow him to kill the second most powerful channeler.
Also, like callandor said, the entire series has been building up to the battle between Rand and Ishy, so I'm certain they will battle in tarmon gaidon. I see fain as a wild card in the LB, having some strange importance, possibly even helping the light side, voluntarily or not ("no man can walk in the shadow so long he can't come back to the light").
p.s.- what kind of sucky LB would it be if fain and rand fought instead of rand and moridin?!
4
juitzhead: 2003-07-28
Tam said:
“This would be a good question for RJ, was Fain connected to the DO, or, if Fain had died before becoming Mordeth, would the DO have had control over his soul?”
do you mean, can a person/DF who has sworn to the DO be resurrected?
Im trying to remember, but I don't think that they can. If I remember from the new RJ interview (which you have listened to as well, perhaps you might remember better than I), in order for a DF to be resurrected, they have to swear at SG.
Quote:
“The Aes Sedai toweled her hands briskly. "I have always believed it so," she said. "Perhaps Padan Fain can be redeemed. But he has been a Darkfriend more than forty years, and what he has done for that, in blood and pain and death, would freeze your heart to hear. Among the least of these - though not small to you, I suspect - he brought the Trollocs to Emond's Field. " – tEotW ch 47
Padan Fain has already been a DF for 40 years, but I don't think the DO has control of his soul.
That brings up another question, how do Forsaken recognise DF's?
5
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-28
Well, Fain talks about being "distilled" by the DO, which I believe happened at Shayol Ghul, so I was wondering whether or not Fain could have sworn the oaths there also.
6
Callandor: 2003-07-28
Fain has been to SG. However, any person who hasn't given their soul to the DO, can be reborn when they die (and its also conflicting interviews with RJ about balefired Forsaken but nevermind that ;)). Normal Darkfriends don't do ANYTHING near to this. Darkfriends take oaths, yes, but they don't pledge their souls to the DO right in the Pit of Doom in SG.
So, normal DFs would be reborn to me.
7
moridin68: 2003-07-28
This is in response to Vaughn882's comment concerning the two different evils of Shadar Logoth and the DO. I don't really believe that there is a difference between the two. Here is the basis for my arguement:
EotW: Shadow's Waiting, pg. 289
""Shadar Logoth ?" Egwene said uncertainly. " I thought you said this city was called Aridhol".
"Once it was called Aridhol," Moiraine replied, "and was one of the Ten Nations, the lands that made the Second Covenant, the lands that stood against the Dark One from the first days after the Breaking of the World. In the days when Thorin al Toren al Ban was King of Manetheren, the King of Aridhol was Balwen Mayel, Balwen Ironhand. In a twilight of despair during the Trolloc Wars, when the Father of Lies must surely conquer, the man called Mordeth came to Balwen's court."
"The same man ?" Rand exclaimed, and Mat said "It couldn't be !" A glance from Moiraine silenced them. Stillness filled the room except for the Aes Sedai's voice.
"Before Mordeth had been long in the city he had Balwen's ear, and soon he was second only to the King. Mordeth whispered poison in Balwen's ear, and Aridhol began to change. Aridhol drew in on itself, hardened. It was said that some would rather see Trollocs come than the men of Aridhol. The victory of the Light is all. That was the battlecry Mordeth gave them, and the men of shouted it while their deeds abandoned the Light." "
I don't believe that Mordeth was ever just a man. I think he was sent by either the DO or Ishamael to undercut the Second Covenant. Unfortunately (for Mordeth), the plan worked a little too well. While the mission was successful, he got caught in the city.
Point number two: Padan Fain is more than just Mordeth. He also had a little Machin Shin thrown in the mix. In my reading of the books, I've seen that the best explanation for Machin Shin comes from the fact that the Ways were made with Saidin, thus making it an albeit indirect creation of the DO.
Point three: Fain is starting to show that he is gaining power completely unrelated to either the TP, or the OP. You say he's defenseless against the Forsaken ? Imagine he shows up in some dark corner, completely unseen. I think he could make pretty quick work of any of them. He's immune to the evil of his dagger and the lovely flesh eating Machin Shin. It almost seems he can create pockets of the Black Wind seemingly at will. I don't think any channeler would be able to fight that for very long.
And finally, I don't think it would ruin the LB at all to see Fain there as the champion for the DO. I think it would show a little poetic justice, even though the DO will probably lose no matter who Nae'blis turns out to be.
8
ranman38: 2003-07-29
First off, I do not think Fain will ever be Nae'blis. I have a feeling he will play a very important roll at TG, ala gollum from Lord of the Rings, an unwitting accomplice, who seeks to do evil, but in so doing actually soldifies evils defeat. Mainly because Moridin is Nae'blis and he has Slayer out looking to kill Mordeth/Fain.
TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News
"Mesaana is absent again?" Moridin said instead of answering. "A pity. She should hear what I have to say." Plucking the rat from his shoulder by its tail, he watched the animal wave its legs futilely. Nothing except the rat seemed to exist for him. "Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important," he murmured. "This rat. Whether Isam succeeds in finding and killing that other vermin, Fain.
I agree it is possible that Fain will kill Moridin, but I don't think he would automatically be Nae'blis. Also, I know that the Chosen have their own plans outside what the Dark One may wish, but i am pretty sure the DO is ok with Moridin trying to kill Fain.
So, I agree he will be at the last battle, but not neccessarily as a direct emmisary of the DO.
9
Shadow Bane: 2003-07-29
Fain will not be naeblis hes not even a forsaken]
And are you guys crazy? The books have not been building up a rand vs ishy battle THEY HAVE been building up a Fain versus all three tav battle though.
Rand wants fain dead for well... everything
Mat there is that dagger thing
Perrin, fain killed his family
All 3 tav are gonna massacre fain at tg but they will fight other battles as well as tg is gonna take a LOOOOONG time, like a whole book.
10
moridin68: 2003-07-29
Shadow Bane: I have to agree with you about the length of TG. It's going to be long, messy, chaotic, and altogether, a good read.
As for the part of Fain not being a Forsaken, I say all well and good. If I were the DO, I would be getting pretty tired of the Forsaken failing at every turn. I would also consider having "new blood" as a good alternative to them. Maybe get the Forsaken thinking that their days are numbered. A little motivation to stir up some results. Fain would be a great motivator, in my opinion. Imagine Semirhage or Mesanna being sheilded and handed over to Fain. I think he could convince them that failure is not an option which would work out well for the DO.
I have to correct myself on one point that I made earlier. I wrote "Fain seems to create the Black Wind seemingly at will". After giving it more thought, the fog that was created in aCoS was more akin to Mashadar than the Black Wind. This reference was in chapter 36 (Blades). Either way, it's deadly, and difficult for even channelers of the OP to survive. Here's a thought: imagine Fain turning that loose at a meeting of the surviving Forsaken. That would be amusing, to say the least.
At any rater, I think Fain deserves more credit than he sometimes get. I think a "Gollum" type role for him would be an insult to the time and effort RJ has put into his character development, not to mention the fact that RJ is certainly more creative than that. I'm not saying that Tolkien was uncreative by any stretch of the imagination: I'm just saying that RJ could do so much more with this character than to turn him into some unwitting tool to help the Light win TG.
11
juitzhead: 2003-07-29
Shadow Bane: “Fain will not be naeblis hes not even a forsaken”
That's right. Once again from the new RJ interview, non-channelers will not become Chosen. DF's have sworn their souls, but only channelers, and only those deemed by the DO to be powerful enough, will become Chosen. And they do this by swearing their oaths at SL.
Moridin 68: “This is in response to Vaughn882's comment concerning the two different evils of Shadar Logoth and the DO. I don't really believe that there is a difference between the two.”
Aridhol was consumed by the a hatred of the DO by using tactics of DF against DF. It is evil but of a different kind than the DO.
There are several instances where we hear of the two evils fighting each other (I.e Flinns quote when he healed Rand) and of beating and counter-beating evils. This is where Rand got the idea to use SL as a place to syphon the DO's taint into, hence the destruction of both.
moridin68: “have to correct myself on one point that I made earlier. I wrote "Fain seems to create the Black Wind seemingly at will". After giving it more thought, the fog that was created in aCoS was more akin to Mashadar than the Black Wind. This reference was in chapter 36 (Blades). Either way, it's deadly, and difficult for even channelers of the OP to survive. Here's a thought: imagine Fain turning that loose at a meeting of the surviving Forsaken. That would be amusing, to say the least.”
The fog created here in your reference was a bubble of evil. It also popped up in Ebou Dar sometime later. I don't think Fains ability stretch that far.
12
Vaughn882: 2003-07-29
First off, Fain didnt create the fog, it was a bubble of evil. Also, if Mordeth was on the DO's side, why does the evil of Aridhol oppose the DO so much? The evils conflict, we KNOW that, and we KNOW they're not the same.Perhaps mordeth was a DF (though i doubt it), and intended to turn aridhol to the DO, but he must have messed up, because he did the opposite, made an enemy. Mordeth was in actuallity more opposed to the DO than anyone else- he went to the extreme of evil in doing this, and ended up becoming evil himself. Sorry moridin, but he evils arent the same, its been stated too many times in the books that they're not. If i'm wrong, then sorry, but i don't think i am. Anyone else with me?
13
Callandor: 2003-07-29
Fain gets a lot of credit, but as RJ said in an interview just a little bit ago about the Forsaken: "If you couldn't channel, you weren't in this game."
The LB will be long (I realllly hope it is ;)), and yeah, if Fain is just a RJ gollum, I think I will commit myself.
Fain didn't summon the fog, that was a bubble of evil drawn to Rand by ta'veren effects.
Fain would never work for the DO again, he hates all Forsaken and almost anybody that works for the Dark (those he doesn't use), and any of the Forsaken would kill Fain on the spot.
14
ranman38: 2003-07-30
Ok, perhaps I understated what I meant about Fain/gollum reference. Not simple and easy as LoR but much more complex. For example, Fain "kills" Rand, instead of the great victory hje thinks it is, he is fulfilling prophecy, which leads to Rand's eventual victory. See what I mean? I cannot quote any specific prophecy but it is just a theory. :)
15
Naboo: 2003-08-02
Well I don't know why THIS theory was put up anywhere except in the funnies cause though it is "interesting" it does not hold any hard evidence. The part about Pain causing the most Chaos may be true but as someone (i dont know who) said earlier Fain mixed with Mordeth is an evil which directly opposes the DO. Additionally, Fain is extremely 'powerful' in his own right now so I dont think he would even want to work for someone other than himself (especially not the DO). He might lend his services to various people inorder to further his truly chaotic purposes and greed for power and destruction coupled with his hatred for Rand..but ultimately Fain only works for Fain.
16
Flinn: 2003-08-04
Fain is no ones pawn, and he'll kill anyone who gets in his way of killing rand, including the forsaken. I think he could take them. I mean, a measely, dirty , crazed beggar would be underestimated by the high and mighty forsaken, and then bam, knife, their dead and Fain stands supreme.
17
a dragonburned fool: 2003-11-03
It's unbelievable that Fain will become Nae'blis, but why everybody is thinking it's because Fain is enemy of DO? The only reason a theory like morridin68's could exist, is the fact Fain-Mordeth is too deep in DO's game. In some aspects, I think, even deeper then all the Forsaken. Yes, his SL evil is different kind of evil, hostile to SG evil, and both Mordeth and Fain are enemies to Shayol Gul. But why an enemy of SG to be equal enemy of DO. DO is known for liking the concurrence among his guys at every level and SG with the whole great conspiracy of the Darkfriends with their Nae'blis is only an organisation UNDER the Great Lord, not his total will. I think Mordeth is DO's counterpart to his whole organisation. All SG people and creatures are implements of DO, but Fain has different function - he's seed of the DO. One of the most important things about SL evil is being infectious. SG tries to fight the Light, SL tries to infect, to corrupt the Light ("The victory of the Light is all. That was the battlecry Mordeth gave to them...). DO needs both fight and infection work and have to use it separately (that's because the Cleansing of the Saidin worked - Rand caused a shortcircuit in DO's machine) but both are DO's forces.
The nature of SL shows many similarities with the Black Wind and with the bubbles of evil (could be SL's nature some steady kind of bubble). Do the Forsaken like being in a bubble? - I don't think so, all they want is to rule and bubbles are not to be ruled. But bubbles are some part of what DO wants, ALL of the domain of the Nae'blis is not the team to deal with that part, therefore DO needs another team. DO's power is bipolar - Nae'blis is the head of the one pole, Fain is in the another. DF do the concsious service to DO, Fain do subconscious service to DO.
Maybe the Nae'bliss (whoever he will be in that time) and Mordeth-Fain will be the both leaders of the dark side in the Last Battle.
18
Caldazar: 2003-12-23
While reading this theory I noticed in Moridin68's reply, a quote about Mordeth. In the quote it describes Mordeth's battlecry, "The victory of the Light is all. That was the battlecry Mordeth gave them, and the men of shouted it while their deeds abandoned the Light." I thought that this is very similar to the Children of the Light's thinking, and I began to wonder if Mordeth played any part in the formation of the Children of the Light.
19
waterbucket: 2004-05-04
A lot of people here seem to think Fain can or will serve the DO, but it's just not possible. A Dragonburned Fool, I'm not sure I understand your way of thinking. How can someone oppose Shayol Gul, but not the DO? SG is just a represe
20
Jaidh: 2004-05-09
Good theory, yet like everyone else said I don't see Fain selling himself to the DO. A dragonburned fool, I also do not understand what your trying to say in that post. Could you please expain a little more? Caldazar, it is possible for Mordeth to have played a part in the Childern of the Ligth, but why would he of done this?
21
Anubis: 2004-05-09
fain was a tool. to be used and cast aside when no longer needed. he was and is not in on any of the dark ones plans. he hates the dark one almost as much as he hates rand. unfortunatly for the... well for everyone, when this tool got cast aside it got a slight bit powerfull.
22
Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-09
Fain is caught up on one thing:
Killing Rand.
Fain will do anything to kill Rand, including offing one of the forsaken. I do not beleive in any way that he will "turn to the dark"....again. All he wants is Rand dead.
23
Anubis: 2004-05-11
fain hates the dark one almost as much as he hates rand. i dont see him becoming a servant again.
24
Flinn Sedai: 2004-05-11
You guys keep forgetting one thing. Why does Fain hate Rand? He hates Rand because of what the DO did to him to get Rand. He hates Rand, but he hates the DO at least as much.
