holams
by Deth: 2004-02-05 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Padan Fain
Gholams
Try this one on for size. Its only slightly wackier than my first theory. Mordeth was a dead gholam. Lets assume Ishy found him in a stasis box and sent him to Aridhol during the Trolloc Wars to take them out of the fight by whatever means. Gholams are primarily assassins but do we really know what else they can do. Even though they are constucts or made beings they are still living creatures ie. The need to feed on blood. They think, they reason ergo they probably have the ability to change or adapt.In much the same way the Green Man was a made being but he still had the ability to adapt. Sohmesta was a gardener not a guard. He wasn't made to look after the eye of world but he did it anyway because he was adaptable. Likewise I believe gholams can be more than mindless killers.
Some people claim gholams were made with the True Power. If so that would explain the OP having no effect on them. The True Power comes from the DO doesn't it?.
So the gholam shows up in Aridhol, kills a few people here and there to stay alive while he starts corrupting the people. Things are going nice and smooth as he turns the city from the Light while making the people believe they are fighting for the Light(good bit of misdirection on Mordeths part by the way).
**Mordeth, and Aridhol itself, are just as opposed to the Dark One as the forces of Light are, just in a bad way. Thus supposing that Mordeth is a gholam-- a weapon of the Dark One-- makes no sense."
Just because Mordeth made the people believe they were fighting for the Light Doesn't mean that is what he believed. We only have what Moiraine said in EOTW to go on as far as Mordeths thougts and motives and seems to me she was just spouting conjecture or opinion not fact. The only one who knew the facts was Mordeth.
**For its entire existance it had been compelled to obey one or another human, but its mind held the concept of not being constrained. It must follow the women. It wanted to follow." pg 84 PoD for any who want to see it themselves or read more.
This is the gholams thought in POD.
At the time Ishy sent Mordeth/gholam to Aridhol he was compelled but what if compulsion is removed. Free will.
So Mordeth is in Aridhol doing Ishys work “but its mind holds the concept of not being constrained”. Mordeth works out a way to break his tie to the DO maybe something like what Rand did to Asmodean. Who knows.
So gholam breaks free but connection to TP is cut also because that comes from the DO. So now no resistance to OP but possibly retains other powers.
**All these problems make the idea unlikely, but the reason why it's pretty much impossible is this: we know gholam were created by Aginor as a tool of the Dark One. If we posit that Mordeth is a gholam, then how do we reconcile this with the statement that SL evil did not come from the Dark One, but from the suspicion and hate of the people of Aridhol, who had been poisoned by Mordeth?"
Just because Mordeth turned the people from the Light doesn't mean he had total control over what form the evil took. Maybe he had no control at all over the monster he created. Evil does not necessarily come from the DO. There are many different forms.
As said Mordeth only started the process. The evil came from the people themselves. that might explain why the evil of Shadar Logoth is different from the DO's evil.
Mordeth goes to Aridhol
Breaks tie to DO
Changes or mutates in some way
Evil swallows Aridhol
Mordeth gets trapped
Mordeth dies of old age or starvation
Mordeths soul or ghost meets Fain
Amalgamation of two evils
Voila
Yeah I know its way out there but what the hey eh!
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-02-21
This one is a bit more fun than your last. I like the idea, in its general form; Ishy sent a spy into Aridhol, and that spy was responsible for the evil that was created there. I don't see why it has to be a gholam, besides your suggestion that a gholam would be a useful spy and disturber of the peace because of its shape changing abilities. But, do all constructs, like Nym, have souls? I remember Jordan commenting on this once, but I can't remember what he said. I will give you one thing, completely original idea. :)
2
Callandor: 2004-02-21
Quote from an RJ interview:
**The Taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created *by humans*, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction.**(emphasis mine)
3
charliec: 2004-02-22
Sure Callandor, the taint was made by the humans- the residents od Aridhol, but Mordeth sparked it off, and he need not have been human...
Still, I don't see the need for Mordeth to be a Gholam, his methods were subtlety and diplomacy- neither strike me as aspects of the Gholam, which are much more physical characters.
Personally I don't buy the idea that Mordeth was even sent by the DO, as you'd expect him to have some lingering vestiges of loyalty when he resurfaces, instead he hates the DO as passionately as ever.
I go with Mordeth being just a plain human (not even a Darkfriend), who had independently already come to the opinions that he later brought Aridhol to, and later was subsumed into the essence of his evil.
For this- in randland things aren't totally polarised good/bad, things can be evil or malevolent or just nasty without being from the DO- Mashadar, the Black Wind, the snakes and foxes at times, most people....
Against this- where does the power of Mordeth's evil come from? (this is what confuses me) Did his power grow in parallel with the evil (plausible), or did he have some kind of special power before he began sowing the seeds (likely, but what was it, where did it come from?).
As I said, Mordeth's abilities don't seem akin to a gholam's, nor are they close to a channeler's, or to the True Power... the closest thing is the taint, but he wasn't a darkfriend (I think). Got me puzzled.
4
mat1489: 2004-02-24
One bad thing about it is mordeths accent it sounds nothing like any gholam ive ever heard people that listened to fain said it sounded like a grand sound to it where the gholams accent is no different from anyone elses
5
Cossack: 2004-02-26
I strongly disagree with this theory, (however original it may be :))
i just dont believe that gholams have the inteligence to corrupt an entire city.
The residents of Aridhol were not that stupid to allow themselves to be converted so easily.
I think gholams are assasins, nothing else.
6
brigitta: 2004-02-27
this one I love. Really. but I see a little hole in it... um... I might be wrong (little help, quotemasters?) but Ishy was somewhat bound... um... for a while, and he was ground by the wheel, but in a different way as his buddy Be'lal. If I remember correctly, he was trapped, and yet not somehow, for a while... but again, I could be way off base here. Otherwise: Superb, I'd even join your faction if you had one about this:)
7
Unicorn: 2004-02-29
I think Cossack is right, gholams are simple creatures give them blood onca and a while and they're happy. the scope of this seems a bit out of a gholams league.
The theory struck off something in my mind though. We know that the *finn, while not nessecarily opposed to the DO, have a reaction pattern that is different when it comes to issues about the shadow, this being a combo of Moiraine's explanation to the boys in tear, with a little of Birgitte to Perrin in TAR.
My first thought was that Mordeth was a *finn, quickly discounted. The next, that Mordeth went to se the foxes, and asked for power in creator/DO class, and got whatever this evil goodness is. Ofcourse the only known way to Castle Fox, is (was) the doorframe in Rhuidean, but who knows maybe Mordeth knew the way into the Tower of ghenjei, IMO there must be more twisted door frames. The only thing I don't think would be wise was to ask the Snakes for directions but I don't know why I think that. I know it is not that well thought out, but I think Mordeth became what he was by way of the *finn
8
charliec: 2004-03-01
I tend to feel that we resort to the *finn too much in our theories. I personally don't believe that the Snakes are that all-knowing... their ability seems to be an extention of Min's and from their cryptic answers perhaps similarly limited by hard-to-interpret symbolism. We surely grant the Foxes too much power as well- our only indication is Mat... they gave him two objects and messed with his head... yet we often expect them to resurrect Lanfear or grant godly powers. Don't forget either that they are hard to access, at the time of Mordeth the Snake's doorway was the property of some monarch somewhere, while the Fox's was safely stored in Rhuidean.
Surely there's no need to invoke either the finn or the Gholam here... Mordeth as we first met him was a spectre, the remnant of an evil which consumed a man and a city, and which grew out of their own wickedness. I think that's a powerful enough plotline to satisfy...
9
Callandor: 2004-03-01
**I personally don't believe that the Snakes are that all-knowing... their ability seems to be an extention of Min's and from their cryptic answers perhaps similarly limited by hard-to-interpret symbolism.**
Whoa, whoa. We know that the Aelfinn (Snakes) are all knowing. We have it from 2 sources: one from Moiraine, and even though she is not all knowing she is still pretty spot on, and the BWB, which is definately correct.
**The Guide:
CHAPTER 3: The Age of Legends, page 33
Perhaps the strangest of all known ter'angreal are two tall redstone doorways, similar to yet different from each other in form and function, whihc do not require the user to be a channeler. Each stands independent of any supporting structure and is twisted strangely so that the eye keeps slipping away from the contour of its shape. One of these, decorated with three sinuous lines that run from top to bottom on each upright, resides in the Stone of Tear. Anyone passing through it enters a strange world where he or she is allowed to ask three questions and recieve truthful answers. By an ancient compact with the inhabitants of the other side, no lamps, torches, items made of iron, or musical instruments are allowed within.
...
Almost nothing is know of the worlds beyond the two doorways, *except that the answers are always true*, though not always easily understood, and the requests are always granted, though not always as intended by the petitioner. Several ancient legends seem to refer to the inhabitants of the other side of these ter'angreal, and to indicate that dealing with them is both delicate and dangerous.**
10
oniDahL: 2004-05-25
I really like this theory. I've been thinking the same thing myself lately and I belive Mordeth is a super-gholam(or something like that) because: in WH when Mat meets Noal for the first time(in the alley with the gholam)the gholam slips through a hole in the wall. Noal says that he has never seen anything like it and Mat answers "I have. In Shadar Logoth".
remember Mordeth stretches out and slips through a hole in the wall when Rand, Mat and Perrin meet him in Shadar Logoth in EotW.
I think RJ put in Mat's line to give us a hint of Mordeth's origin. seems too much of a coincidence to me.
11
charliec: 2004-05-26
Didn't see your response at the time Callandor...
**Almost nothing is know of the worlds beyond the two doorways, *except that the answers are always true*, though not always easily understood, and the requests are always granted, though not always as intended by the petitioner. **
that's my point, they can give cryptic, hard to understand clues, but who says they actually know/understand the answers themselves? the Finns can grant any request, but not necessarily in the way you expect- ie. you might ask for something impossible, but be given something entirely different...
12
Anubis: 2004-05-26
*sigh* if mordeth had been a super gholam... (WTF is a super gholam anyways??? how do you get more super then gholam?) then mordeth would have drank peoples blood and killed channelers and done gholam type sturr. but he didnt.
13
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-05-27
I liked the idea of this theory, creative, and fun indeed...but too many problems with it for me to truly enjoy it :
ASSUMPTIONS
Mordeth was a gholam (why ?)
Gholam broke its chains (so to speak)
Gholams have souls (not certain - think this is an assumption)
Gholam's immunity due to being created by the TP (presumably with the same TP that created other shadowspawn, who aren't immuned ?)
Gholam died
CONCLUSIONS
Gholam was quite a statesmen
Gholam was quite subtle
Gholam knew human needs/ambitions/motives/emotions very well
Gholam 'survived' something that kills every other shadowspawn
Mordeth's/Gholam's soul (?) was able to someone meld with Fain's
Fain no longer needs to feed on blood, even though gholams are created this way
Fain is no longer able to shape change like a gholam
Fain has powers a gholam has never displayed
14
Darren: 2004-05-27
**Whoa, whoa. We know that the Aelfinn (Snakes) are all knowing. We have it from 2 sources: one from Moiraine, and even though she is not all knowing she is still pretty spot on, and the BWB, which is definately correct.
Where does Moiraine say the finns are omniscient? (I'll ignore the BWB infallibility I can't shake you of...)
On a tangent, am I the only one STILL annoyed and reaching for a red pencil every time I see this thread? The plural of gholam is gholam. They're like moose.
15
Callandor: 2004-05-28
**Where does Moiraine say the finns are omniscient? (I'll ignore the BWB infallibility I can't shake you of...)**
Three things:
1. I still do not understand people's adament disapproval of the BWB. It gives lots, and lots, of facts in there. Yes, FACTS. A fact in this series is any information stated taht is not contradicted in any way. In this regard, there are few things in the BWB which are incorrect (most I believe involve the Forsaken), and many, many, more which have to be taken as fact, regardless of your own personal opinion of the source.
2. The quote:
**TITLE: The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER 6: Doorways
"And if you had stumbled in the dark and fall through the twisted doorway?" Moiraine said wryly. "That one needs no channeling, only to step through."
"To what purpose?" asked Nynaeve.
"To gain answers. Three answers, each true, about past, present or future."**
3. The quote from the BWB, along with the quote given here, go hand and hand. Coupled with the events which took place with Mat inside the actual doorway, and the prophacies the Finn gave him, it is quite easy to say, the Finn are always right, and can see into the future; going further, it is even easier to see that if they can see the future, how they can see past as well as present.
16
charliec: 2004-05-29
**They're like moose. **
You mean meese?
lol
