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adain Fain - Key to defeating the Dark One

by snakes-n-foxes: 2004-03-21 | 1 out of 10 (4 votes)

Previous Categories: Padan Fain

Okay, I don't have any solid proof for this theory, just that it has been a favourite of mine ever since reading the first book.

In TEotW, Morraine when she questioned Fain came back and said "There is much yet hidden about Padan Fain, much I must learn. The evil goes deeper in him, and stronger, than in any man I have yet seen. It may be that the Dark One, in doing what he did to Fain, impressed some part of himself on the man, perhaps even, unknowing, some part of his intent."

Morraine never did get to question Fain, and he has been a mystery player in the series ever since - He merges with Mordeth in SL, Machin Sin recognises him as akin to them, he recognises people who have only ever thought of becoming a darkfriend (not even that they became one).

The biggest question that comes to mind though, is how anyone is going to get this information out of padan Fain.

Another pet theory of mine is that Padan Fain will be at the Last Battle. What he will do there I don't know.

But it is unusual that RJ has included a person like Fain as an important, if irregular character. The question is 'why is Fain important' ?

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Comments

Tamyrlin: 2004-04-24

I must be feeling...lazy today. You have a theory, but you don't support it...but I am posting it. Maybe Fain isn't discussed enough, or maybe I am getting soft considering my lack of time to review theories. Anyway. Fain is important because he is the Anomaly of the "system". He is something that has never been (IIRC), so he creates a problem for the Wheel, for both sides vying for control. He is the spoiler, but I can only hope that he doesn't turn into gollum; Fain is so much more than gollum will ever be, so I want Jordan to treat him like that through the end of the books. Fain should survive until the next Age.

udernation: 2004-04-24

I think he will definitely be there at the Last battle. I also think that his wound is as likely to be key as Ishmaels wound. I think he will be a gollum character, though - more's the pity. I see no other option for him to take, given his predisposition. Likely, he will be the one to kill Rand, and considering he hates no one more than Rand and the DO, what else?

Question, though. How did the DO 'distill' him? Considering the DO didn't know Rand at the time, I don't understand how exactly it happened.

Callandor: 2004-04-24

**Morraine never did get to question Fain, and he has been a mystery player in the series ever since...(not even that they became one).**

He was both recognized, and feared by Machin Shin, btw.

**The biggest question that comes to mind though, is how anyone is going to get this information out of padan Fain.**

We will; through his PoV's ;).

**Another pet theory of mine is that Padan Fain will be at the Last Battle. What he will do there I don't know.

But it is unusual that RJ has included a person like Fain as an important, if irregular character. The question is 'why is Fain important'?**

Padan Fain is a amalogon of "Death" characters to me (yes, I know Moridin is Death in the Old Tongue), because of his growing powers and their relative closeness to how the famous stylized character of Death (cloak and sickle you know him well ;)). Example of this is Padan Fain only has to touch anyone to turn them into Perwyn Belman (a gibbering idiot), and he still has powers he himself, and us, don't know about.

I believe that Padan Fain will be at the Last Battle; he's set up to be attached to Rand in an evil way. I think that in the Last Battle, Rand will battle Moridin, Rand will kill him, and Padan Fain will stab Rand via the Shadar Logoth dagger through his side (the twice wounded one), and before Rand dies, he will OD on saidin (like LTT) and kill Padan Fain and himself.

Fain is important simply because he is a true wild card; he is not controlled by anyone except himself.

Darren: 2004-04-25

Of course, part of the problem is that there is no proof that the "Dark One" Fain discusses is actually the Dark One. It is quite likely that it was only Ba'alzamon. Does Fain not mention the "eyes of fire" that the sa'a produce?

Is this even a theory, or just a question?

charliec: 2004-04-25

Fain as Gollum? Nah... Despite all the times it's quoted RJ shows remarkably few signs of using his "no one is ever so deep in the shadow..." clause.

I agree though that Fain is likely to be present at the Last Battle, he's an important character in many ways, not least because he's the renegade, the one outside the pattern, the unpredictable one who could tip the balance either way... but what role he plays is pretty much impossible to guess at this point.

I don't see him as being in the last scene though- he strikes me more as a character who has evolved to significance during the writing process, rather than as part of the overall vision of the books.

Davian93: 2004-04-25

Fain distilled: The DO is most likely not the one who actually "distilled" Fain. It was probably Ishy, who everyone who doesnt know any better thinks is The DO at that point in the books. Even if it was the DO, fain having given his soul to the DO has given him free access to everything in Fain's head. The DO/Ishy sorts through all this information and based on their own independant information put together that Rand/the Dragon Reborn is living somewhere in Two Rivers, etc.

Fain will definitely be there at the last battle and will be at least as important as Mat or Perrin or any of the other major characters. Fain, as a wildcard, can swing the battle either way. Must be a scary thought for both the DO and Rand.

In conclusion, I also think he will end up playing a "gollum" type role unfortunately.

Voice of the Light: 2004-04-25

Fain is going to be the key to defeating the Dark One because the Dark One needs Rand alive in order to escape. All that has happened so far is leading up to Rand facing the Dark One at Shayol Ghul full of the One Power possibly through the CK. With that much One Power it would be the best time for the Dark One to lash out and break free or for Rand to accidently tear the Pattern.

Before Rand gets a chance to mount his attack that the Dark One needs in order to escape Fain is going to kill/fatally injure Rand at Shayol Ghul, thus preventing the Dark One from breaking free. After this Shadar Haran is going to attack Fain for ruining the plan to help the DO escape, which gives the now alive Moiraine and Nynaeve time to save Rand and help him make sure that he doesn't tear the pattern.

dragonsceptor: 2004-04-26

Fain was actually taken to Shayol Ghul...sorry don't have the quote. Why would he be taken there unless it was the DO who did the tinkering? Ishy wouldn't need to take him to SG to mess with him. I think it was actually the DO who messed with Fain.

Anubis: 2004-04-26

daivan, it was the dark one at shayol ghoul. fain talks about having been there and he is not fond of the memories. he gives the whole speal to alvarian.

Callandor: 2004-04-26

**Of course, part of the problem is that there is no proof that the "Dark One" Fain discusses is actually the Dark One. It is quite likely that it was only Ba'alzamon. Does Fain not mention the "eyes of fire" that the sa'a produce?**

We don't hear/see Fain talk about his trip; we get it through Moiraine. She mentions both Ba'alzamon and the Dark One in the passage, interchanged, but there are certainly somethings that only the Dark One could've done that Ishamael could never have.

The only truely cofirmed case of Ba'alzamon doing something to Fain, is when he bound him tighter to the Dark One in his dreams (Tel'aran'rhiod).

charliec: 2004-04-27

just being at Shayol Ghul does not mean it was the DO... at that stage Ishy was pretty closely bound to Shayol Ghul as well, if half-free. I'm not sure which way to go on this...

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-27

Also remember that Fain wants to be the one to kill Rand. He won't let anyone else. He killed some of the renegade asha'man for it. That will be a major factor at TG and i think one of the forsaken will be defeated by fain, maybe even Shaidar Haran, due to Fain's ability used against myydraal.

Anubis: 2004-04-27

callandor, we do hear and see fain talking about the trip. when alvarian binds him with the power when he steals the dagger from the tower, he tells her that he has been to shayol ghoul and describes it in detail. This convinces her that he is high up on the darkfriend ladder and she allows him to leave. And i dont have a quote cus im lazy.

Anubis: 2004-04-27

"just being at Shayol Ghul does not mean it was the DO... at that stage Ishy was pretty closely bound to Shayol Ghul as well, if half-free."

yes cus the dark one is in the habbit of summoning darkriends to shayol ghoul for no particular reason. and ishmael was the first to be free, by a long shot, so i find it very doubtfull that he was bound.

Callandor: 2004-04-27

**and ishmael was the first to be free, by a long shot, so i find it very doubtfull that he was bound.**

He was at least bound partially. A strong channeler, unbound by the Oath Rod, can live about 600 years before eventually dying from age. You are saying that Ishamael has lived for 3500+ years without dying. No way.

And don't say transmigration. There is no body difference from when Lews Therin sees Ishamael in/end of the AoL, and when Rand sees Ishamael from all three first books.

Most accpeted idea is he was bound on a 1000 year cycle. For 1000 years, he would be bound, then free for about 40 years, then bound again, then free again, etc. This is strongly supported by BWB evidence and simple timeline of when Dark plots are at the brink of destroying everything (something Ishamael takes credit for).

If Ishamael had a 3500 year run to do anything, I could easily see him destroying civilization on his own many times over. He didn't; more proof of his inacitveness.

Dorindha: 2004-04-28

While I think it was the DO that affected Fain at SG, just cos they're at SG doesn't mean it is the DO - creating cour'souvra for example doesn't need the DO to do anything, but can only be done at SG, as Moghedian thinks when she is being put into hers

charliec: 2004-04-28

Even when 'free' before the seals break, Ishy is actually still quite restricted, consider the flickering, straining image he projected to drive the trollocs into Shadar Logoth... and some people think at least one seal was already broken by then! Ishy was still to some degree bound at that stage, and might have been more strongly tied to Shayol Ghul than elsewhere.

Anubis: 2004-04-28

no callandor. im saying that it is likely that ishmael was free when padain fain was begining his search for rand. whats that? like 2-5 years ago? (i have no sense of time but i know fain entered the search fairly recently in the 20 year timeline that is rands life at book 1) I didnt mean to imply that i thought ishy was free the whole time.

Anubis: 2004-04-28

*While I think it was the DO that affected Fain at SG, just cos they're at SG doesn't mean it is the DO - creating cour'souvra for example doesn't need the DO to do anything, but can only be done at SG, as Moghedian thinks when she is being put into hers *

Then why do it at shayol ghoul? There are things that can only be done at shayol ghoul. What can only be felt at shayol ghoul? The dark one. Ergo, the soul trap requires the dark ones participation, or at least presence, and considering that the dark one is the only being we have ever seen with the power to mess with souls it is reasonable to say that he is responsable for both the soul trap, and fains distillation.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-28

in essence, it is the dark one's doing at shayol ghul. It is most evil there, than any other place, because the DO can touch the world there, or affect the pattern a bit. Me. I think Fain will Kill SH. We've seen fain torture a myydraal and his powers could only have grown. I think that will be a major conflict later in the books.

dragonsceptor: 2004-04-28

I don't think Ishy has been free the whole time either. However, if he was named Naeblis, hasn't the DO guarenteed the him he will live forever? How does the DO accomplish this? Is it only through transmigration? Or is it a lie that the DO tells?

Davian93: 2004-04-28

****Then why do it at shayol ghoul? There are things that can only be done at shayol ghoul. What can only be felt at shayol ghoul? The dark one. ****

Well, for one Ishy was still partially trapped and couldnt really leave SL. Fain wouldnt know the difference between Ishy or the DO so his POV is irrelevent other than the fact that he was at SL. We know from Moggy ripping Birgitte's soul out of TAR that souls are not the sole (excuse the pun) domain of the DO. The DO would probably delegate this kind of stuff to Ishy, who pretty much has run things since the AoL. I'm leaning towards Ishy doing the distilling but there is no real evidence either way.

Anubis: 2004-04-28

immortality is not a hoax. read RJs questions of the week. (thers a link to it under home still) and besides i never meant to say that i thought ishmael was free the whole time.

Callandor: 2004-04-28

**no callandor. im saying that it is likely that ishmael was free when padain fain was begining his search for rand. whats that? like 2-5 years ago? (i have no sense of time but i know fain entered the search fairly recently in the 20 year timeline that is rands life at book 1) I didnt mean to imply that i thought ishy was free the whole time.**

Ok, I understand what you said better. And yes, Ishamael was definately free by the time Fain was summonded (BWB implies he was freed in 983 NE). Btw, Fain was summonded 3 years before The Eye of the World began, for future reference :).

**While I think it was the DO that affected Fain at SG, just cos they're at SG doesn't mean it is the DO - creating cour'souvra for example doesn't need the DO to do anything, but can only be done at SG, as Moghedian thinks when she is being put into hers **

Doesn't need the Dark One to do anything? Ok, I could see that... if it wasn't said outright that only channelers can be mindtrapped, and only and Shayol Ghul, and that the second setting for the mindtrap is done by throwing the mindtrap into the "Bore" where the strength of the Dark One is strongest.

**I think Fain will Kill SH.**

Yes, I totally agree with that :)

**I don't think Ishy has been free the whole time either. However, if he was named Naeblis, hasn't the DO guarenteed the him he will live forever? How does the DO accomplish this? Is it only through transmigration? Or is it a lie that the DO tells?**

The Dark One has guarnteed immortality to all the Forsaken; once he is freed. Until then, they have an "almost immortality" with transmigration of their souls into new bodies.

According to RJ interviews, the Forsaken know the Dark One can grant immortality, for they have seen it before in the AoL (however that works).

Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-29

I don't think Ishy was "partially trapped", I think that he msot likely was free. It just makes sense for him to "whisper in Hawkings ear" and all that. It also makes for a better sense of suspense (pardon the rhyme), because knowing Ishy is free means that the world isn't really as safe as Rand first percieves it to be (while he's in the two rivers) It adds to the "you can't hide theme".

FAIN WILL KILL SH

Anubis: 2004-04-29

haha callandor. i suppose it would depend on how you define "doing somthing". it could be that just his prescense is enough. Tho i would lean toward agreeing with you, i think the dark one puts the soul into the box when they toss it over the pit. But i see it as a little bit of a streach to say that the DO is involved in lets say EVERY fades sword made in SG. So that could be his prescense or somthing similar to a tied off weave that doesnt require his active attention.

Callandor: 2004-04-29

**I don't think Ishy was "partially trapped", I think that he msot likely was free. It just makes sense for him to "whisper in Hawkings ear" and all that. It also makes for a better sense of suspense (pardon the rhyme), because knowing Ishy is free means that the world isn't really as safe as Rand first percieves it to be (while he's in the two rivers) It adds to the "you can't hide theme".**

Go to Google. Search for "WOT FAQ". Just like that. Second link is the main list site. Scroll down to "1.1.8: Was Ishamael really bound?" Read, and think.

**But i see it as a little bit of a streach to say that the DO is involved in lets say EVERY fades sword made in SG. So that could be his prescense or somthing similar to a tied off weave that doesnt require his active attention.**

? How did it get from Mindtraps requiring the Dark One's manipulation to work, to Fade blades? We know that the only way the Dark One could help in that process is with the river in which they are quenched; otherwise, all the Blades aren't a concern of the Dark One, but the Forgers of Shayol Ghul (read LoC Prolouge with Demandred's view for more detail).

dragonsceptor: 2004-05-03

***immortality is not a hoax. read RJs questions of the week.***

I never meant to imply that immortality was a hoax. I was merely posing some questions as to the mechanism the DO uses to give immmortality to his servants. I don't think this topic has been much explored. I was wondering whether the DO has the power to give immortality now or if he must beat the dragon at TG to accomplish this. I am thinking that he is currently able to offer it through transmigration and that will change if the DO wins TG. I know that someone is going to point out that the forsaken have been alive for 3000+ years. Yes, that is true. But, the were also bound at SG. I would imagine that where they were bound was outside the pattern and thus not part of time. Anyway...your thoughts would be appreciated.

Anubis: 2004-05-03

i think that the dark one can make it so that his servants dont die natural deaths. old age etc.

and i was under the impression that transmigration sp was a thing that the DO did as more of a last resort then anything else.

Callandor: 2004-05-03

**I am thinking that he is currently able to offer it through transmigration and that will change if the DO wins TG. I know that someone is going to point out that the forsaken have been alive for 3000+ years. Yes, that is true. But, the were also bound at SG. I would imagine that where they were bound was outside the pattern and thus not part of time. Anyway...your thoughts would be appreciated.**

1. Transmigration is not immortality. The Forsaken themselves have not become immortal in anyway.

2. Yes, the Forsaken are alive now because of, and only because of, the Bore sealing them outside the reach of time.

Darren: 2004-05-04

**and besides i never meant to say that i thought ishmael was free the whole time.

Umm... Ishamael WAS free the whole time. Read the prologue to the Eye of the World again. That's Ishy, in the flesh, drawing on the True Power. It's also why Ba'alzamon/Ishy later says "Fool, I have never been bound!"

Gandalf: 2004-05-05

Fain is not a Gollum figure. Rand has nothing that Fain wants. Fain just wants Rand dead, dead, dead.

Fain will kill SH.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-05

Hasn't RJ stated that Ishy was partially bound? I've tried to prove he was free, but people kept saying he was "partially" free. I want a quote or a link or something.

Jaidh: 2004-05-05

Just one question. Ok really two. Fist, kinda off topic but I can't get the Spaces between my paragraphs. Any help would be greatly appracited.

Next, Why is Ishy not bound when or what makes him greater than any other FS when the rest have been bound?

Demandred: 2004-05-07

*** Umm... Ishamael WAS free the whole time. Read the prologue to the Eye of the World again. That's Ishy, in the flesh, drawing on the True Power. It's also why Ba'alzamon/Ishy later says "Fool, I have never been bound!" ***

I have some problems with this. The prologue to Eye of the world doesnt take place in the current age so I wouldn't count it as evidence for him being free all the time since the AOL.

His own statement ("...I have never been bound") isnt evidence enough. First, he was clearly not totally sane - he did believe he was the DO himself. (Remember his conversation with Lanfear in TDR? Or his encounters/battles with Rand in TEotW and TGH?)Second, he could have been boasting or lying or just believing he was free.

Personally I believe he was bound - but not fully since the weakening of the bonds started. Not fully because he could at least influence the world in a way. Maybe both being the strongest Chosen and being mad gave him the power to partially escape the weakening bonds before the other Chosen managed to escape.

Callandor: 2004-05-08

**Umm... Ishamael WAS free the whole time. Read the prologue to the Eye of the World again. That's Ishy, in the flesh, drawing on the True Power. It's also why Ba'alzamon/Ishy later says "Fool, I have never been bound!"**

Then how is he alive after 3500+ years outside the Bore, in the exact same body (no transmigration)? No channeler in the world could live for that long.

Ishamael was PARTIALLY bound; not fully, not never bound, partically.

Anubis: 2004-05-09

darren. i stand with callandor on this. if ishmael had been free the ENTIRE 3000 years then the world would have been ishmaelland not randland. the last battle would have already been won and the light would be completely up a creek.

also ishmael always bragged to the other forsaken about being only partially caught. so he was bound and he was not. course the guy does lie alot.... :P

Davian93: 2004-05-09

****Umm... Ishamael WAS free the whole time. Read the prologue to the Eye of the World again. That's Ishy, in the flesh, drawing on the True Power. It's also why Ba'alzamon/Ishy later says "Fool, I have never been bound!" ****

No, Ishy was bound for periods of time and released for approx 40 years every 1000 years coinciding with the start of the Trolloc wars and Hawkwings darkness in later life. He was then released sometime around 983 NE to continue his mischief. As for him claiming to never be bound, look at the source. He's not exactly reliable.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-09

Gandalf thank you! I've have been saying that for weeks and I even made a theory (it obviously wasn't good enough) SH will fight Fain.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-10

What makes ishy so great?! He's the only forsaken to be "partially bound", he's Naeblis, he is the strongest in the power (males) within the forsaken, need I go on? Also, kind of on a tangent. I was reading the BWB and noticed that a man on hawkings council "spoke to him", and soon after he layed siege on TV. It claimed that the reason he turned against the Aes Sedai is unknown and only in a couple of different theories. It also states that the man was there for 40 yrs and didn't age at all. Hellow, It's our friend Ishy! So I guess that partially bound thing needs some explaining....

Anubis: 2004-05-11

ishmael bragged to the other forsaken about only being partially caught.

forget which mentions it.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-11

Reading the BWB, it states that a man held a high position in hawkings court, and conversed with hawking. Soon after, Hawking hated Aes Sedai. The man supposedly didn't age...Remember Ishy's words "I whispered in Hawkings ear..." Maybe bound has less meaning then we think.

charliec: 2004-05-12

A thought on Ishy... when Rand sees his ancestor's lives, one of them hears a rumour that Ishamael is only partially bound... this would be tens or even hundreds of years after the bore was sealed, and may not mesh well with the idea that he's completely free every 1000 years.

Considering as well the weak flickering projection he put forward to drive the Fades into Shadar Logoth, it looks more like he was really 'part bound' rather than bound most of the time and sometimes free...

How did he survive so long then? Well, he is still part bound... partially sealed away from time and so protected a little. Or perhaps the DO was already giving him immortality...

Anubis: 2004-05-12

alot of people dont own the BWB (im assuming because i dont and havnt seen it in bookstores for ages). so it is rather arrogant to assume this stuff is common knowledge.

Flinn Sedai: 2004-05-12

Ishamael was never bound

He talked to LTT after Kinslayer had killed his relatives. Obviously this was a result of the taint, which was the counterstroke of what? THE BORE BEING SEALED! DUH!

Also, i forget which Forsaken it was, but one of them was talking to Ishamael, and spoke with scorn about how he had pulled strings for 3000 years and it had come to naught.

And saying that Ishamael thought he was the DO because of what he said in T'A'R to Lanfear is poor proof. He never said that he was the DO, reread it if you disagree.

He asked if she still served the DO. She responded with, I serve him and myself, no other. He accepted that as an answer.

Anubis: 2004-05-12

i always thought that ishmael escaped being fully bound by entering tel aran hro... the freakin dreamworld. in the flesh. i think this is the most likely solution that would result in him being bound, but not fully.

Callandor: 2004-05-12

To all doubters:

**TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 46 - Veils

Pushing everything away, the woman leaned back, speaking half to herself. "Rand al'Thor. So that is his name now." Her face crumpled in a momentary grimace. "An arrogant man who stank of piety and goodness. Is he still the same? No, do not bother to answer that. An idle question. So Be'lal is dead. *The other sounds like Ishamael, to me. All his pride at being only half-caught,* whatever the price-there was less human left in him than any of us when I saw him again; I think he half- believed he was the Great Lord of the Dark-all his three thousand years of machinations, and it comes to an untaught boy hunting him down. My way is best. Softly, softly, in the shadows. Something, to control a man who can channel. Yes, it would have to be that." Her eyes turned sharp, studying them in turn. "Now. What to do with you."**

Callandor: 2004-05-13

**alot of people dont own the BWB (im assuming because i dont and havnt seen it in bookstores for ages). so it is rather arrogant to assume this stuff is common knowledge.**

The BWB is not the only source of information about this. The books themselves contain quite a bit.

Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-13

Im sorry, I wasn't aware that I sounded arrogant. I was simply stating what it said, so that you guys can make what you will of this theory. If you don't own it, I suggest you get it. It's an awesome book and reference, though alot of mispelled words and such.

Gambler86: 2004-05-14

If Anyone is a fan of the Matrix as I am. One would tend to agree that Fain is an Agent smith type character a wild card, he has been set free and hates the dark and the light. Since Rand is the (One) so to speak prepare for a similar ending with Rand having to come to grips with both before its all said and done.

charliec: 2004-05-15

For those who aren't happy with even a partially bound Ishy surviving 3000 years:

Just finished the Fires of Heaven...

Shortly before his mysterious demise Asmodean is pondering his life, and observes that his immortality has been removed from him, and now he can almost feel the dragging of time. The DO had already granted them their immortality (or rather protection from ageing), but that appears to have been removed by cutting Asmo's cords.

Anubis: 2004-05-15

i live in washington state and have visited a few bookstores in the seattle tacoma area and have not seen it on the shelves. i managed to paruse it once but i simply did not have the money at the time. (and it was a long time ago, when the thing first came out. havent seen it since)

meh its cool, i rather enjoy hearing info from the thing. tho for my theorizing i rely on the books and to a lesser extent interviews.

Darren: 2004-05-17

**I have some problems with this. The prologue to Eye of the world doesnt take place in the current age so I wouldn't count it as evidence for him being free all the time since the AOL.

Wow. I've come across some stupid *ahem* "arguments" (because I attack the theory, not the poster) on these boards, but this takes the cake.

Ishmael was free after the seven seals were placed on the Bore. Fully free. We KNOW this. If you deny this, you are saying that the prologue to the entire series is all bull****. If I were to argue that way, I could argue any point. "I don't believe what RJ says here, so I'm still right."

The books say, unequivocally, that he's free. He's there, travelling, drawing on the True Power, and unless someone RESET the seals after all the male aes sedai went mad (which would have meant re-releasing the Dark One with no male aes sedai to challenge him.... that never happened, folks.) then he HAS to have always been free. You can argue with me all you want, but you would be better to just take a moment to really think.

The argument that "Ishmael had to have been freed or else he'd control the world," is based on SEVERAL false concepts, but I'll deign to dismantle it anyhow:

1) Motive: You all assume that you know Ishmael's motives, which seem to be a naked ambition to openly rule the world as a despot. Where is your evidence for this? Ishmael/Moridin has never cared for mortal authority. Cite one example from the text where he tries to rule a land? I dare you. There are none. Ishmael has ever been a kingmaker and a puppetmaster, and while I cannot presume to know all his motives, some can be seen in the texts, and one is blindingly obvious:

HE WANTS THE LAST BATTLE TO HAPPEN SO THAT THE SHADOW CAN TRIUMPH.

This means he has to wait for the Dragon, and manipulate events. Which is what he did. What he openly acknowledges doing.

2) The texts. Verin reveals that the Tower once knew and some have always known that one Forsaken was always free.

3) Moiraine's Histories: At each of the huge turning points of the World, Moiraine and Ishmael himself acknowledge that Ba'alzamon was there. It's no secret that he was behind the Trolloc Wars, which Ishmael acknowledges served his purpose ("the Ten Nations were broken, and who was there to challenge me?") He also speaks of telling Hawkwing to send his seed over the Ocean (sealing a future doom. This reveals his foreknowledge of the Seanchan, and the part they will play.)

4) The Aes Sedai. Ishmael is one man. You are assuming that Aes Sedai throughout all history have been the weak sisters they are now, despite flat out evidence to the contrary in the texts. The dark one could not be freed and Ishmael was allowed. If Ishmael was killed during the interval of the Seals, would the Dark One have been able to give him a new body? Probably not. So Ishmael would have had to be very careful if he wanted to survive. Which is what he did.

5) Lastly the idea that it is NOT Ishmaelland. Look at the Eye of the World again. Tar Valon is a paper tower at the outset of the series, and we have yet to see how many AS are REALLY black ajah. My money is on it being a CONSIDERABLE number. They also "decided" to bind themselves to the three oaths, but who is to say whose hand was behind that decision?

The nations are weak. Morgase hangs on to her power by a thread, and only retains her throne against a rioting public through the help of Rahvin. And she's one of the strong rulers. The Ways are corrupt and serve as portals for the Shadow. Even Fain onlyt gains the power he follows Rand. I think Ishmael may well have things exactly as he wanted them.

hassman: 2004-05-17

the BWB is available new and used from Amazon in paper and hardback.

dragonsceptor: 2004-05-17

You can get the BWB online at Amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312862199/qid=1084807253/sr=8-12/ref=pd_ka_12/103-8568668-1795034?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Hope this help!!!

Gandalf: 2004-05-17

Ishy lies. They more important the topic, the bigger the lie. It would be like him to taunt LTT after he killed his kin about never being bound. He had to be bound. One reason for believing this is his image driving Fain, Fades, and Trollocs into SL. This info comes from a madman though. Someone of pure evil. Maybe it was Fain driving the Trollocs into SL instead of Ishy. Maybe Fain made up the abused darkfriend bit so Morraine would go easier on him. Hmmm.

Fain has to be at TG. He's too important a character not to be.

Rand has proven that no Forsaken is a match for him and he just keeps getting better. Maybe Moridin will fight Rand, but it seems that SH will be the DO or the DO's manifestation and if that's true, Rand will face SH.

If SH can keep Rand from channeling, SH might be able to win. Just as SH is about to kill Rand, Fain kills SH. Fain's powers don't come from channeling and neither do SH's. So it seems logical that they will fight.

I have no proof. Nothing to back this up except that SH and Fain do not channel, but they have powers.

Darren: 2004-05-18

**Then how is he alive after 3500+ years outside the Bore, in the exact same body (no transmigration)? No channeler in the world could live for that long.

Umm Callandor, with others I can excuse ignorance of the texts, but not in you. I know it's a pet theory of yours that no Forsaken are actually granted immortality by the Dark One, but sometimes all of us have to abandon pet theories when the evidence contradicts them.

Ishmael is alive after 3500 years for the same reason that Aginor and Balthamel were alive after stepping out of the prison and complaining about how fine the wheel grinds over three thousand years (meaning TIME PASSED FOR THEM IN THEIR PRISON)... The reason is stated again and again in the books. They are granted immortality by the dark one. Get over it.

charliec: 2004-05-18

Darren, do you think that Ishy was totally free the whole time? What about the descriptions of him as partially bound, and the apparent growth in his powers in the first books as the seals weaken? I agree with most of your points, but could you clarify on this one?

Oh, and:

**Ishmael** careful with your spelling, or you might upset any muslims on the board... ;)

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-05-18

back from holidays.

While I was away, I began thinking... Rand used the particular properties of Shadar Logoth to cleanse the taint from Saidin (what properties I havent' exactly worked out).

Fain possesses some, if not all of these properties.

Shayol Ghoul is located where there is a 'thinness in the pattern'

The pattern is made up of every souls in existance? (seem to remember reading this somewhere, so please correct me if I'm wrong).

Fain does have a soul, if possibly one like we've never seen before.

Perhaps Rand will use Fain in some way to seal the bore (this would mean Fain becoming part of the seal).

Alright...bizarre twist, and not sure using anyone's soul (even Fain's) for such a thing wouldn't be considered the ultimate form of evil.

Feel free to pull it apart, was just a thought on a possible reason why Fain could be the key.

pointyman: 2004-05-18

S-n-f....

Read this.....

http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=71&theo=900

Everyone else feel free to have a look...

Callandor: 2004-05-18

Ok, this is getting friggin ridiculous.

ISHAMAEL WAS NOT FREE FOR THE ENTIRE THIRD AGE! Get over the idea. He was partially trapped in the Bore.

**Umm Callandor, with others I can excuse ignorance of the texts, but not in you. I know it's a pet theory of yours that no Forsaken are actually granted immortality by the Dark One, but sometimes all of us have to abandon pet theories when the evidence contradicts them.**

You are being so arrogant, as well as ignorant, in assuming you are the end all be all of Wheel of Time knowledge.

Excuse me, but I have a quote, that specifically says, Ishamael was partially trapped. Where is your quote?

Ah yes, Ishamael's claim of never being trapped. Pure bull.

Think about it logcailly for once in your life. Robert Jordan has said in interviews, as well as made referances in the books, that even strong channelers, can only live a maximum of around 600-700 years old. According to you, Ishamael lived 3500+ years, without dying.

How the hell is this possible?

Ah, Immortality. Tell me then, HOW THE HECK DID HE DIE IN TDR, IF HE IS IMMORTAL?!?!!!

Frankly, the more you refuse to accept already debated ideas, and ones painfully made clear, be at your own.

But never, never, say things to be true, when they are not. Keep that to yourself.

And to seal up any other debate. WOT FAQ:

**The widespread belief in Randland is that all thirteen Forsaken were imprisoned with the DO when the Bore was sealed by LTT and the Hundred Companions. However, this doesn't seem to be entirely true. Ishamael appears bodily to LTT in the prologue to TEOTW. We know that he must really be there, because he cures LTT's insanity so that he will realize what he has done. From what we know of how channeling works, he could not have done this if he was only some kind of astral projection. That scene takes place shortly after the sealing of the Bore. So, Ishy was not bound right when the DO and the other Forsaken were sealed away.

Many events throughout the Third Age bear Ishy's fingerprints-- the Trolloc Wars (the Trollocs invading Manetheren carried the banner of Ba'alzamon), the creation and continued existence of the Black Ajah, the War of the Hundred Years. Ishy claimed to have influenced Hawkwing [TEOTW: 14, The Stag and Lion, 172]. The Third Age shows a pattern of humanity being kept in a state of disarray. Whenever the people showed signs of becoming unified (Compact of Ten Nations, Hawkwing's empire), some cataclysmic event occurred to split things up again. This worked out too well for the Shadow to be mere coincidence. Clearly, Ishy was active and in control of the Shadow's forces for quite a bit of, if not all of, the Third Age.

Then we have the research of the post-breaking historian Aran son of Malan son of Senar (presumably an Ogier), as described in [Guide: 5, The Dark One and the Male Forsaken, 52]. This person claims that "there were sightings of, even encounters with, Ishamael after the Bore was sealed, in fact perhaps as much as forty years after." The proposed theory is that "it may have taken some years for Ishamael to be drawn fully into the trap with the other Forsaken.... Ishamael might well be thrown out of the prison holding the others and drawn back again on some regular cycle."

Next there is the bit in [Guide: 12, The Reign of the High King, 114-5] about Hawkwing's advisor Jalwin Moerad. Moerad was a mysterious, shady character who insinuated himself into Hawkwing's court in FY 973. Moerad exhibited "frequent long absences, a volatile temper, and a temperament that more than one observer recorded as 'more than half insane.'" Shortly after Moerad became a counselor (late summer FY 974), Hawkwing abruptly turned against the AS (who had previously had a very close relationship with Hawkwing). Moerad was contemptuous of AS. After Hawkwing's death, Moerad advised the three nobles who "came the closest to seizing the whole of Hawkwing's empire," and all three of them met untimely deaths. Finally, "Moerad never aged from the day he first appeared to the day he vanished, abruptly, some forty years later." The personality, the lack of aging, and the forty years business, along with Ishy's claim that he influenced Hawkwing make it clear that Moerad was Ishamael.

Finally and most tellingly, Josh Hildreth points out Moghedien's musings while holding Nynaeve and Elayne in thrall in Tanchico, after Ny and El tell her about the two Forsaken Rand fought in the Stone of Tear:

"So Be'lal is dead. The other sounds like Ishamael, to me. All his pride at being only half-caught, whatever the price - there was less human left in him than any of us when I saw him again; I think he half-believed he was the Great Lord of the Dark - all his three thousand years of machinations, and it comes to an untaught boy hunting him down."

[TSR: 46, Veils, 526]

So, it seems like Ishy was somehow "partially bound." That is, he was not completely locked away in the Dungeon Dimension with the rest of the Forsaken and the DO. He was definitely free right after the sealing of the Bore, and was most likely free at various points during the Third Age. Obviously, he was also the first of the Forsaken to be completely freed of the seals, by a long shot.**

So please, quit saying that we are wrong; you are wrong in your assumption. Get over it.

NOTE FROM TAMYRLIN: Actually, Callandor is correct, Ishamael was partially bound, and none of the Forsaken are "immortal." These are facts, not theories. Now, can we all just get along, and try not to personally attack each other? I would appreciate it, I don't have time to read every single word of every reply.

Anubis: 2004-05-19

seal the bore and chuck fain in beforehand. if anything it would be amusing

Darren: 2004-05-19

Ishmael.... Ishamael... so I erred on the side of Melville.

I believe Ishy's growth in power is explained -and SHOWN- in the texts. He is one of the Forsaken, tied to the Dark One by a black cord. You see it, in ETW, "Against the Shadow."

As this cord attaches to the DO, it must gain in thickness and strength as the Seals weaken. Heck who knows, the cord may be the reason why the Seals didn't work? (that's just a theory, though)

Do I think that Ishamael was freed the whole time?

Yes. Unequivocally, yes. The only part of him that was "partially" bound was the aforementioned black cord, and that only because it extends into the Bore. He moves about unrestricted and drawing on the True Power in "Dragonmount," fully confident that he can defeat Lews Therin mano a mano. (who admittedly, was hardly at his best, but as his family learned, he was certainly still dangerous.) He's there in solid, corporeal form. And we know that that IS his body because he stil has his own eyes then (they're even sa'a-less...) and 3500 years later he has eyes of fire. So the TP is effecting changes on his corporeal body, not some t'a'r "apparition." He was free folks.

Anubis: 2004-05-19

darren, callandor is wrong only when he disagrees with me :P. and id bet money that the forsaken do not age. ishmael didnt live 3000+ years on partial sealing alone.

charliec: 2004-05-20

**Ah, Immortality. Tell me then, HOW THE HECK DID HE DIE IN TDR, IF HE IS IMMORTAL?!?!!!**

Because what people call immortality may not always be quite that... it may be just not growing old, but still at risk of death from physical damage.

This has to be more likely than actual immortality, or the DO would just create a few genuine immortals and use them to defeat the entire world...

Anubis: 2004-05-20

**Ah, Immortality. Tell me then, HOW THE HECK DID HE DIE IN TDR, IF HE IS IMMORTAL?!?!!!**

rand killed him, thats how. Immortality, true immortality is impossible. If the dark one made someone "immortal" then the creator (being more powerfull) could step in mess everything up and that immortal bastard would die. Im thinking that immortal just means that you only die if someone kills you. Ishmael probably does not need to worry about aging. He COULD survive 3500 years.

And heres mah evidence. Take aginor. or balthamael. i forget which but either will do. They were bound near the surface. Partially outside of time but still, by the time they were freed they were ANCIENT. Are you meaning to tell me that ishmael was more bound then Aginor and Balthamael? Ishmael did not age a day in 3500 years. Explain that. Partially bound will not cut it.

(new paragraph!!!) :D Another thing. Ishmael was a true power addict for at least a hundred years. And that is a very very very conservative estimate. The other forsaken fear even slight uses of TP because it WILL kill you. So Ishmael is magicly special? Yes. He has been granted immortality. If you close your eyes and wait two thousand years, ishmael will still be alive and kicking and in the same body. You need to take a more proactive approach to killing the guy.

(new paragraph) One final thing that has always struck me. One of the forsaken muses that only ishmael can use the TP since his... anointing. There is a distinct hesitation before anointing that suggests much more then a simple verbal blessing. Ishmael has been given power. And immortality.

(final paragraph) Final point. Look at the battle where rand killed ishy. Rand had CALLANDOR. The most powerfull sa angreal that isnt a huge freakin statue. Ishmael had himself. Ishmael still thought he had a chance. The whole AID ME!! and blackness and muahahaha!!!. Let me say that again. HE THOUGHT HE HAD A CHANCE AGAINST CALLANDOR. Name one person who rand could not effortlessly kill with callandor. Besides the gholam. Oh yeah i said person. There is more to ishmael then meets the eye, and there is more complexity to immortality then just not being able to die. And recall that rand cut ishmael off from the dark one (and probably immortality) BEFORE he killed him. HA! im right *victory dance*

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-05-20

Thanks for the link Pointyman (not sure if Fain can be considered 'outside the Pattern'...he's something new, but he's still a life thread, and still living inside the pattern - no action has shown him able to go outside the pattern)

A note on 'immortality':

Many people take it to mean 'you will never die', or the more commonly 'living forever'. Well, some call immortality living forever, even though it's possible to live forever - if you don't get killed (so I suppose it just depends on how you define immortality).

This isn't meant to prove anything one way or another, just a thought.

By the way, I agree with Callandor that Ishy was partially caught, even though he appeared fully free in the prelude of EoTW. Can't make sense myself of how he can be partially caught like that, but oh well.

Darren: 2004-05-20

**You are being so arrogant, as well as ignorant, in assuming you are the end all be all of Wheel of Time knowledge...

Is it me who's being arrogant? The texts say he's immortal. The Forsaken say they're immortal. The AS believe they're immortal.

But YOU don't.

And anyone who disagrees with you assumes they're the "be all and end all?" Please.

Immortality is never stated as being an immunity to aggressive physical injury. There are no "immortals" in any mythology I can think of, who are impervious to all physical harm. Why should Robert Jordan's world be different? Immortality means only that their bodies do not die of "natural causes," like Old Age. As well, because of the DO's use of transmigration of souls, the Forsaken get an extra helping of "immortality," in that they can be fitted with new bodies at the DO's discretion.

**Frankly, the more you refuse to accept already debated ideas, and ones painfully made clear, be at your own. **

? What?

**But never, never, say things to be true, when they are not. Keep that to yourself. **

You should follow this advice yourself. Quoting the WOT FAQ as a reliable source. Is that supposed to impress me? I might as well quote theoryland.

And yes, Tamyrlin, they ARE immortal. They're just not invincible. (I never said they were.)

Nevyn: 2004-05-20

snakes-n-foxes; is that a little Steven Erikson I hear?:) Perhaps my imagination

Anubis: 2004-05-20

1. thank you dragonscepter.

2. dont post my previous reply.

3. i posted a theory regarding immortality, discuss it there.

Flinn Sedai: 2004-05-20

**NOTE FROM TAMYRLIN: Actually, Callandor is correct, Ishamael was partially bound, and none of the Forsaken are "immortal." These are facts, not theories. Now, can we all just get along, and try not to personally attack each other? I would appreciate it, I don't have time to read every single word of every reply.**

However, in that same post at the very beginning, he starts insulting people who have differing opinions.

** Ok, this is getting friggin ridiculous.

ISHAMAEL WAS NOT FREE FOR THE ENTIRE THIRD AGE! Get over the idea. He was partially trapped in the Bore.

**Umm Callandor, with others I can excuse ignorance of the texts, but not in you. I know it's a pet theory of yours that no Forsaken are actually granted immortality by the Dark One, but sometimes all of us have to abandon pet theories when the evidence contradicts them.**

You are being so arrogant, as well as ignorant, in assuming you are the end all be all of Wheel of Time knowledge.

Excuse me, but I have a quote, that specifically says, Ishamael was partially trapped. Where is your quote?

Ah yes, Ishamael's claim of never being trapped. Pure bull.

Think about it logcailly for once in your life. Robert Jordan has said in interviews, as well as made referances in the books, that even strong channelers, can only live a maximum of around 600-700 years old. According to you, Ishamael lived 3500+ years, without dying.

How the hell is this possible?

Ah, Immortality. Tell me then, HOW THE HECK DID HE DIE IN TDR, IF HE IS IMMORTAL?!?!!!

Frankly, the more you refuse to accept already debated ideas, and ones painfully made clear, be at your own.

But never, never, say things to be true, when they are not. Keep that to yourself.

And to seal up any other debate. WOT FAQ: **

The fact remains that this is not a closed subject. Whether you will allow people to post on it or not is another story, but we do not know that he was only partially bound. It is assumed (with no basis) that he was pulled in later, merely because an argument came up that completely demolished the partially bound argument. Callandor, please do not assume that YOU are the be all and end all of Wheel of Time information. The nerve to call other people arrogant.

ANOTHER NOTE FROM TAMYRLIN: My note regarding insults was aimed at everyone, including Callandor, just to clarify your initial quote in this reply, Flinn.

Tamyrlin: 2004-05-21

No, they are not immortal. Ishamael called himself Ba'alzamon too. It doesn't matter what the characters think, it matters what Jordan has shown us to be the truth through their actions. Most of the Forsaken have been killed, and not all of them have been killed by balefire. No one has an immortal body, and it can almost be proved that souls are not technically immortal. If you are transmigrated, you were not immortal, otherwise you would not have needed to be transmigrated. Darren, transmigration (a form of reincarnation) is the antithesis of immortality. Since we know their are two parts of every human, soul and body, immortality suggests those two parts cannot be torn apart, otherwise that would simply be mortality (the seperation of body and soul). If Ishamael can be killed, he is mortal, which Jordan has demonstrated time and again; Forsaken can be killed, their souls can be separated from their bodies.

Tamyrlin: 2004-05-21

The conclusion we came to, back when we had another blow up of greater magnitude (while I was pushing my cord theory on some newbies), has more to do with life extending properties the Forsaken seem to receive (in my opinion, through their connection to the DO). It isn't immortality he has given them; he has, as a warder receives through his bond, given his Forsaken life extending power, which is similar to what a warder actually receives. He promises them actual immortality, if he is freed, which is what they pin their hopes on, but obviously, they don't have what we would refer to as immortality. If you can die, you are technically mortal.

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-05-21

Immortality is a matter of perspective.

As for the bound/partially bound argument, we have a second hand quote that ishy himself said that he was partially bound (the 'For all ishmael's pride at being only partially caught, he's less human than any of us' quote)...not 100% conclusive, but very close to it.

We also have the fact that he is running around free in the prelude EoTW.

How do we reconcile the two ? I haven't seen anyone offer a truly plausible explanation (and no, I can't think of one).

On Immortality :

We have the Balthamel/Aginor problem...They were old whilst fully bound Vs Ishy's young whilst partially-bound/free. As per previous post...if ishy was partially bound, then how come he is younger than someone fully bound...but then...why if Ag/Bal were full bound & Immortal, did they age at all ? Saying the Dark One couldn't touch them doesn't truly seem to cut it, because Ishamael would have been harder to reach than them (so one would think).

The forsaken are immortal argument runs into the problem of Ag/Bal having aged (need a theory to explain this to for the immortality argument to be credible)

The 'they aren't immortal' argument runs into the problem of Ishy having lived 3000 years without aging (which can't be attributed to being partially caught, because of ag/bal's age)

So we need a credible theory to explain these away, or nothing can be concluded.

Tamyrlin: 2004-05-21

I disagree that nothing can be concluded. Your arguments, as mine, point out that immortality is obviously not what we are seeing. Also, I fail to see Ishamael "walking" around. Rand sees him in T'A'R, but do we ever see Ishamael outside of T'A'R or Shayol Ghul throughout the entire first book? Ishamael isn't walking around a free man, which is besides the point.

It is also mentioned that Aginor and Balthamel were able to watch the world go by, but not enter it from their perch at the edge of the sealed prison. In a similar way, Ishamael was allowed to enter for periods of forty years, but pulled back, probably in a similar position, to one that Aginor and Balthamel were in, or even further back into the prison. Their bodies were affected by time, but not the same way they would have been had they been living the entire time. They would have withered and died by now, if they hadn't been in the prison, which it clearly shows, their bodies having decomposed as far as they had being in the prison.

So, here is the explanation, as I have already given it. The Forsaken's connection to the DO gives them life extending power, like the Aes Sedai bond gives to warders. They appear to be able to remain sustained in life, even when their body might have decomposed past the point where a normal person's body would have died. While it can extend their lives, it does not make them immortal. They can and are killed, often. In fact, the DO encourages the Forsaken to kill each other, these thirteen just happened to be the most cunning who remained alive during the War. All of what we have seen in the books can be explained in that theory, along with the explanation the BWB gives for Ishamael being out of the prison for forty year spans.

snakes-n-foxes: 2004-05-21

Tamyrlin, I was refering to when Ishy met LTT in the Hall of the Servants in the prelude to the first book. There he says to LTT something along the lines of 'fool, I have never been bound', and then 'heals' LTT.

Anubis: 2004-05-21

tam, one thing that everyone overlooks. at the end of TGH Rand plunges his sword into ishmaels chest. Ishmael does not recieve healing (he is wounded later). Explain this. The wound is clearly mortal, and yet Ishmael does not die. It is only after having his black chords cut that Ishmael dies.

: 2004-05-21

*Do I think that Ishamael was freed the whole time?

Yes. Unequivocally, yes. The only part of him that was "partially" bound was the aforementioned black cord, and that only because it extends into the Bore.**

So Ishamael was freed, but his cord was partially trapped. Give me one bit of evidence to back this up. How can his connections to the Dark One, be partially trapped, without Ishamael himself being trapped?

Btw, Ishamael did not come to LTT to kill him.

**8. Did Ishamael come to Lews Therin Telamon's palace in the prologue of Eye of The World to kill him?

RJ: No. To taunt him with his defeat. Ishamael would much rather have had Lews Therin alive and suffering from the knowledge of defeat, not to mention the murder of his wife and other blood kin, than simply dead.**

**Im thinking that immortal just means that you only die if someone kills you.**

April 23rd, 2003. Budapest, Hungary; interview #3:

**RJ: You see there were many more then 13 Chosen at the time of the Breaking of the world; at the time of the Sealing. There were more and the reason the others lived was that they were trapped. The reason these 13 lived is they were trapped, except for Bathamel and Aginor, Sealed away in large extent from the effects of time, as if they were put into suspended animation. The others who where not there at this conference died.**

RJ makes the clear distinction: all the Chosen, every one of them, would've died, if not trapped in the Bore. Hence, they do not have any type of true immortality, whether that is the true eternal life and no physical death, or just eternal life till a physical death, they didn't have it.

Same interview continued:

**Q: So what makes a Forsaken, Forsaken?

RJ: Well, many people had sworn their souls to the Dark One. To be one of the Chosen, is to be someone who is recognized by the Dark One as having enough potential to be brought to Shayol Ghul to swear this oath personally, to be as close to being in the presence Dark One as possible with the prison partically sealed up.**

Not one thing about immortality.

More important interview #9:

**Q: Are the Forsaken already immortal?

RJ: No, they are not immortal.

Q: Do they know that?

RJ: Yes, they know that.

Q: Do they believe they are immortal?

RJ: No, they do not believe they are immortal, but they believe they will be; all they need to do is get the Dark One free. And they have been promised this; this is their reward for getting him free. If they manage to get him out of that prison, he will grant him immortality. And they believe this, because they have seen him in the past, as he has done now, bring the dead back to life, give the dead new bodies, transfer souls from a dying body to a young and healthy body. They've seen him do this, so they know, that can be done.**

Can't get any more direct then that.

Interview #10:

**Q: So the gholam can die of a natural death?

RJ: I don't know if you would call it a natural death, or not, but they can be killed. You saw what happened when Mat's medallion just fell on hte gholam's cheek, and branded it.

Q: They can die of old age?

RJ: Yeah, they do. But they live a little longer then you would like to, let me tell you. Not as long as a strong Aes Sedai, who hasn't sworn the Three Oaths.**

Oldest age we can put on a channeler, is about 600. No remark is made about her strenth, but if she can channel about what Elayne, Egwene, or Avi can channel, I would concider them "strong". Going further, you could extend this to 650-700 years for someone of Forsaken strength.

Notice this is important, not for the information about the gholam (that's a different matter ;)), but the distinction that a strong un-bound Aes Sedai, has a limited life, and the Forsaken lifespan is only roughly extended past that.

Hence, you cannot legitimately say that if they can live 700 years naturally, that someone like Ishamael, who would surely be at the high end of the lifespan spectrum, would survive for 3500+ years, without some outside influence.

Many, many, people chalk this up to the Dark One granting immortality. We know that to be false. We know the Forsaken are only alive because they were trapped in the Bore.

Now put it all together. We know Ishamael cannot live the entire span, without influence (the Bore). We know he was there at least 4 distinct times (right after the Strike, Trolloc Wars, War of a Hundred Years, and present).

So what fits?

A partial sealing of Ishamael within the Bore. If you get this far unconvinced, I can't do anything more for you to see the obviousness of it.

Darren: 2004-05-22

Now we're getting somewhere!

To answer some questions.

(Snakes-N-Foxes):

**On Immortality :

We have the Balthamel/Aginor problem...They were old whilst fully bound Vs Ishy's young whilst partially-bound/free. As per previous post...if ishy was partially bound, then how come he is younger than someone fully bound...but then...why if Ag/Bal were full bound & Immortal, did they age at all**

This is definitely a tricky question. Aginor defnitely looks old, in "Meetings at the Eye, and RJ himself refers to him as "the Old One." For myself, I think they didn't age. That was damage inflicted from being trapped too close to the surface:

"I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel..."(ETW, Meetings at the Eye)

However, I can see where some people would think differently. I respect their opinion, I just don't agree with it. The fact that Ishamael, even if "only partially caught," and not aging at all, shows that what happened to Aginor and bad B was physical damage from an imperfect prison. Also, one might consider that we have NO idea how old Aginor was before he was bound to the Shadow. We learn from the other Forsaken that he was not as strong as the others, and were it not for his "other talents," he might never have been "Chosen." Everyone assumes that all the Forsaken were in their prime when the Bore was opened. There is no evidence for this. He may well have been physically old already.

(Tamyrlin)

**Your arguments, as mine, point out that immortality is obviously not what we are seeing. Also, I fail to see Ishamael "walking" around. Rand sees him in T'A'R, but do we ever see Ishamael outside of T'A'R or Shayol Ghul throughout the entire first book?**

Well, we see him in the Introduction, which was when the prison WAS at its maximum strength. The idea that the seals, deteriorating over 3 millenia, somehow GAIN STRENGTH later to pull Ishamael back in is ludicrous to me, but anyhow.

Fain reports seeing him in the flesh. Was he supposed to be lying? Obviously Ishamael is free from the beginning of Chapter One, whether you believe in him being partially bound or not. He IS seen in T'A'R, and as we learn from Lanfear, dreams are denied those in the Seals. Aside from that, to the best of my knowledge, Ishamael only EVER enters TAR in the flesh. We also see him at the end of the first book (it would have been anticlimactic for RJ to bring him in earlier... :D )

(Also on a side note; the idea that whatever any of the bad characters say can automatically be discarded is one that does not sit well with me. I am very much aware that they are Forsaken, and sworn to the Shadow, and will lie whenever it suits their purpose. However, automatically dismissing anything they say whenever it proves us wrong is just a cheap trick to refusing to consider contrary evidence. All of the Forsaken say many true things in the books, and I am aware of very FEW lies that Ishamael ever told Rand. When he says to Rand, "Fool, I have never been bound!" it is in a fit of anger. He is neither pleading nor attempting to manipulate.)

**The Forsaken's connection to the DO gives them life extending power, like the Aes Sedai bond gives to warders**

Well, the black cord should probably be a whole other line of posting. I have had this same thought myself, but I have two reservations to accepting it:

1) The surprise and shock the Forsaken feel towards the warder bond, which they describe as "something new." The Bond produces no cord. I know that you probably did not mean literally "like" but I've found that we have to be crystal clear on these boards. Vague points we all take as obvious get seized on and morph into some pretty strange beasts, as far as I can tell.

It is obvious that the Forsaken gain strength from their connection to the Dark One, and we know that once Asmo's was severed, he can feel time passing again, so that pretty much proves that that's where they get their immortality from, to me, as well. However, I do not think it is in any remotely comparable to the warder bond.

2) Aginor's cord. What the heck was up with that? Read against the Shadow... Aginor's cord is definitely bright and light, and placed in direct contrast to Ba'alzamon's cord.

Aginor's

"A glowing rope ran off from Aginor, behind him, white like sunlight seen through the purest cloud, heavier than a blacksmith's arm, lighter than air, connecting the Forsaken to something distant beyond knowing, something within the touch of Rand's hand."

(Which Rand steals from Aginor. What the heck is up with this? If it IS the same sort of cord that Ba'alzamon has, then it not being black means Aginor is not bound to the Dark One, and would therefore would not be immortal anyhow. I myself think the cord is the Eye of the World, but have never really been sure. I've lost track of the number of times I've read the EoTW in the 15 years since I first read it, and the last few chapters still give me questions. I hope that me publicly admitting this will put to rest the idea that I consider myself the "be all and end all of WOT knowledge.")

Ba'alzamon's cord:

"Ba'alzamon had a cord, too, he saw. A black cord, thicker by far than his own, so wide it should have dwarfed the human body, yet dwarfed by Ba'alzamon, instead. Each pulse along that black vein ate light."

(EoTW, Against the Shadow)

More later... I've gotta go play tennis.

Tamyrlin: 2004-05-22

Ishy's statement about not being bound happens within a short time after the sealing of the Bore, what I would call his first partially unbound period. He doesn't believe he was caught by the sealing, but forty years later, he will learn differently. By the way, one of the inconsistencies in the theory that he was never bound, has to do with the supposed lack of decomposition to his body. If Aginor and Balthamel were bound, but still experienced a portion of time pass, destroying their bodies, how did Ishamael's body escape decomposition, if he was never bound in the first place? Especially when you consider the fact that Lanfear's body also does not experience any apparent decomposition.

By the way, Fain sees Ishamael at Shayol Ghul, but I have no problem with this period of time, when Ishamael sends Fain on his trip to find LTT, is the natural period of forty years in which he is unbound from the prison. It seems apparent that when Ishamael begins to get access to the world, it starts in T'A'R, then he can physically walk into the world, then back to only being able to touch T'A'R, then back to prison.
So, we have Jordan's comments in interviews explicitly deny the idea of immortality. His partial commentary in the BWB deny the idea of immortality, and encourage the idea of Ishamael being partially bound. And the fact that Forsaken can be killed, explicitly denies the idea of immortality. So, we are left with Ishamael, three thousand years ago, after the sealing, showing up next to LTT and telling LTT he isn't bound. That is the only piece of "proof" that supports the non-bound, possibly immortal theory.

By the way, Aginor's cord was the pure Saidin flowing to him through the Eye, which is why it was white, as you were thinking.

Darren: 2004-05-22

Callandor, you make me tired. I've stated repeatedly my INTENSE scepticism regarding interviews (especially web-site interviews!!) in threads I know that you have read. Yet you challenge me with nothing from the texts.

Let me ask you. Were YOU in Budapest, in 2003? Is that interview yours? If it is, then good for you. I still would not believe a word of it that I did not hear for myself. And even then I would be wondering if the man was just fucking with me, or had had too much to drink, etc. etc.... Sorry. I'm just a sceptical guy, and the last thing I do is accept unverified web-source "facts."

More to the point, you yourself have shown in past threads that RJ gives conflicting answers to interviewers, yet now because you suddenly want me to, I'm supposed to accept these unverified and alleged quotes as proof positive? You can't have things both ways. Either his interviews are occasionally unreliable (in which case not to be trusted,) or else you retract your statements that he is giving conflicting answers to questions such as the Thom's daggers fiasco (which you cannot do.) Otherwise stop wasting my time. Stick to the texts. They're the only things that can be trusted.

You ask where is my evidence for the cord being caught. Well, do I really need evidence? How about I just walk you through my reasoning for a moment.... will that do?

1)The cord is a connection from the Dark One, to Ishamael.

2) Ishamael is on one side of a little something they call "The Bore," a unique and literally phenomenal "hole" in the known Universe connecting two otherwise incontiguous "realities." (Dimensions/vacuoles, whatever... who has the time for the metaphysics?)

3) On one side of the Bore is Ishamael.

4) On the other side of the Bore, is the Dark One.

5) The Bore has been sealed -imperfectly. This means that until the seals are all broken or completely deteriorate, whatever is on one side, can not cross over.

6) The cord would have to be partially caught, as it bridges the Bore, and exists simultaneously on both sides.

I hope that's enough. Unless you are suggesting that the cord does not attach to the Dark One? I'd be willing to listen. And by the way, I said, Ishamael was confident that he could defeat LTT, not that he came to kill him. I know he did not come to kill him.

I AM wondering why you are arguing with me about the cord being partially caught, though. Aren't you trying to prove that Ishy is partially trapped? I am beginning to suspect not, and that you are just arguing to seek some sort of intellectual alpha-male mantle.

Tamyrlin: 2004-05-22

Darren, you are a smart guy, but unfortunately you are wrong. While Jordan could have misquoted himself over a variety of questions, this interview is definitive; it was captured on audio, and I have the copies of that interview. Actually, if I am not mistaken, Dragonmount has them too (which is where I think I got them). These answers aren't simply summaries to supposed questions. If you would like, I can send you the sound files of the interview where Jordan is answering questions. As I listened to the interview, this is the following summary I took, "The Forsaken are not immortal, they do not believe they are immortal, all they need to do is to get the DO free, if they manage to get him out of that prison...and they believe this because they have seen him in the past...bring the dead back to life, give the dead news bodies, transfer souls from a dying body to a young and healthy body, they have seen him do this...they have seen these incredible things done, so they have a reason to believe." Seriously, the Forsaken are not immortal. Jordan doesn't think they are immortal, I don't know what can be more clear. Here is the link http://www.dragonmount.com/Interviews/2003-04-23.php

jason wolfbrother: 2004-05-22

snakes-and-foxes

**Tamyrlin, I was refering to when Ishy met LTT in the Hall of the Servants in the prelude to the first book. There he says to LTT something along the lines of 'fool, I have never been bound', and then 'heals' LTT.**

Ishy visits LTT in LTT's home after the Sealing. not the Hall of the Servants. that meeting is mentioned by Ishy later in one of his TAR meetings with Rand.

Anubis

**tam, one thing that everyone overlooks. at the end of TGH Rand plunges his sword into ishmaels chest. Ishmael does not recieve healing (he is wounded later). Explain this. The wound is clearly mortal, and yet Ishmael does not die. It is only after having his black chords cut that Ishmael dies.**

No. Ishy does not die when his black cords are cut. His cords are cut in EotW yet Ba'alzamon continues to plague Rand for two more books. He is stabbed in the chest in TGH yet he continues to plague Rand for another book. Yet in each of those cases what happened happened in TAR. Not until Rand faces Ishy in the flesh in TAR with Callandor does he finally kill Ishy and then it is again with a sword directly into his chest.

Ishy was partially trapped. He was never fully bound, but he was never fully free either.

Darren

**We learn from the other Forsaken that he was not as strong as the others, and were it not for his "other talents," he might never have been "Chosen."**

Umm where are you getting this from? Aginor was right behind LTT and Ishy in strength in the OP. Ahead of Be'lal, Demandred, Sammael, etc. His strength was not the reason he was a Forsaken, true, but he was stronger than any other, bar LTT and Ishy. He was Forsaken for his abilities in biology. He created the Trolloc, Myrddraal, Draghkar, and Gholam.

**Fain reports seeing him in the flesh.**

Fain also reports seeing him as only a flickering image as well. EotW Ch. 47 More Tales of the Wheel

**"Fain spoke the truth as he saw it," Moiraine said. "He could not lie to me, though he hid much. His words. 'Ba'alzamon appeared like a flickering candle flame, vanishing and reappearing, never in the same place twice. His eyes seared the Myrddraal, and the fires of his mouth scourged us'"**

so there was something preventing Ishy from being there fully in the flesh.

**Also on a side note; the idea that whatever any of the bad characters say can automatically be discarded is one that does not sit well with me.**

I don't automatically discard it, however, when contradictory evidence in the books is shown, I do begin to doubt their word. and when more and more evidence is presented showing their errors, then yes I discard their taunting and boasting as just that.

**When he says to Rand, "Fool, I have never been bound!" it is in a fit of anger. He is neither pleading nor attempting to manipulate.)**

No he is taunting the ignorant farmboy with half-truths.

matoyak: 2004-08-10

O.K......Will someone please tell me what iirc means *makes a pleading gesture with hands* i've always thought that (in every book, movie, ect.) immortality meant living forever. as in no cancer lukimea or AGEING (definate sp there :~( ) not that they wouldn't die by getting balefired or getting there heads chopped off or getting blown into ablivion (SP?) ect. Tamerlyn (SP?) could you please give me that exact quote (or maybe callandor [he seems like a quote master {no offence callandor}]) yes ishamael was partially bound for reasons explaned above. wait a second.....am i replying to the wrong theory? 'cause i just read it am i'm wondering how we got to ishy from this? as for the actual theory ive got no evidece but maybe rand gets killed by fain then moriane balefires fain? (yep...i'm a moriane will be saved guy :~) ) that would sure get a lot of prophecies, and viewings, and fortellings, and dreams out of the way. will work out evidence and a thoery when i have the books on hand for the said prophecies, viewings ect.

Callandor: 2004-08-10

IIRC = If I Remember Correctly or

If I Recall Correctly, and probably 12 other things that mean the same thing.

**i've always thought that (in every book, movie, ect.) immortality meant living forever. as in no cancer lukimea or AGEING (definate sp there :~( ) not that they wouldn't die by getting balefired or getting there heads chopped off or getting blown into ablivion (SP?) ect. Tamerlyn (SP?) could you please give me that exact quote (or maybe callandor [he seems like a quote master {no offence callandor}])**

Doesn't matter what people THINK immortality is; the Forsaken do not have it in any way, shape, or form.

**RJ interview #9 from Budapest interview:

Q: Are the Forsaken already immortal?

RJ: No, they are not immortal.

Q: Do they know that?

RJ: Yes, they know that.

Q: Do they believe they are immortal?

RJ: No, they do not believe they are immortal, but they believe they will be; all they need to do is get the Dark One free. And they have been promised this; this is their reward for getting him free. If they manage to get him out of that prison, he will grant him immortality. And they believe this, because they have seen him in the past, as he has done now, bring the dead back to life, give the dead new bodies, transfer souls from a dying body to a young and healthy body. They've seen him do this, so they know, that can be done.**

The only thing the Forsaken have that other people don't is that if they die, they have a strong chance of eventually coming back in a different body. This is not immortality. They still age, they still die, the still get sick and fall down on spears to get killed.

Celana: 2004-08-10

I'm surprised that in all this hooey (though I'll have to read all the related theories to be sure)that no one has mentioned the fact that Moridin's body keeps dying pretty quickly and needs to be replaced.

I think that by some clever move Ishy escaped being completely bound with the other Forsaken, and that where he was half trapped was at a deeper level than Aginor.

It always amazed me that Ishy could have lived through having a fat sword shoved through his heart. Now I can only theorize that part of his body was still trapped in the bore and that that helped him survive.

It is clear that currently in the series Ishy/Moridin is not immortal. His extreme usage of the TP destroys his body quickly. His body dies, hence he is not immortal.

As Nae'blis and with so many of the seals on the DO's prison destroyed wouldn't Moridin's connection to the DO be even stronger than it has at any time in the past, giving him more benefits? It would seem so, yet still his body dies.

If Ishy had been completely free of the binding using the TP as he does, he would not have lived more than a year or so. Again, only a partial binding could explain his surviving. Always there is some part of him trapped and luckily for him, preserved.

Some might argue that Ishy stuck to using the OP for the past age. His eyes present evidence to the contrary. He has always wielded the TP far too freely for me to believe he would refrain. He is a junkie. Using the TP is probably how he avoided being completely caught in the bore in the first place.

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adain Fain - Key to defeating the Dark One

by snakes-n-foxes: 2004-03-21 | 1 out of 10 (4 votes)

Previous Categories: Padan Fain

Comments

Tamyrlin: 2004-04-24

udernation: 2004-04-24

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