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adan Fain is Ta'veren
by WOTfreak: 2005-05-04 | 2.65 out of 10 (20 votes)
Previous Categories: Padan Fain
Then I wondered, how would that be possible? My two options were that he would have had to bond with Rand(warder/Aes Sedai), and even if that was possible, Padan Fain would have needed physical contact to do it. The only reason I even considered that option was because the Dark One could have made the Bond, since Padan Fain can't use Saidan. Here is a quote that backs up the Bond theory:
"There was a difference lately, a difference that had come suddenly, almost as if someone else had taken a partial possesion of al'Thor, and in doing so pushed away a part of Fain's own possesion." (when the Aes Sedai bonded with Rand against his will in the Lord of Chaos)
The Second theory, and the one that makes more sense, is that Padan Fain is Ta'veren. The way he senses Rand is more like the way Mat and Perrin feel Rand than the way warders feel Aes Sedai. Rand cannot feel Padan Fain, it is one way, which means it can't be a Bond. Also, Padan Fain has never been able to tell what Rand is feeling. Thirdly, even though a Bond does cause some "pull" I've never really heard it used in that context. The only reason I do not know if this theory is correct is that Padan Fain got the ability to feel Rand after a visit to the Dark One, can the Dark One make someone Ta'veren? Here is a quote that proves the Ta'veren Theory.
"It was hard for him to concentrate on one thing for long anyway. Except Rand al'Thor, of course. He could feel Rand al'thor, could point to him, this close. al'Thor pulled at him, pulled till it hurt." Now compare to Perrin feeling the same "pull":
"I know", he said softly."I can feel him tugging at me." His voice was so strange that she reached up to grip his short beard and make him look down at her. His golden eyes, still as strange and mysterious to her as ever, looked sad. "what do you mean? You might think fondly of Gwil, but he-" "It's Rand, Faile. He needs me."
I think we have covered the point. My only other though is, if Padan Fain is Ta'veren, than maybe he has a speciel place in the Last Battle, just like Man, Perrin, and Rand.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-05-11
I think your second option gives you more support, but you need more quotes to get me on your side. The "pulling" you quote is interesting; is there a quote in the books to suggest that other Ta'veren, other than the three boys, feel the pulling of other Ta'veren? Also, do we have any one who is not Ta'veren that describes Rand pulling at them?
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-05-11
Wasn't this explained as the Dark One distilling the essence of Rand and the boys souls, and attuning him to those essences? Fain's powers may somewhat mimic the ta'veren effect, but that doesn't make him ta'veren. The Anti-ta'veren, maybe.
Darkshadow: 2005-05-11
Nice theory but I remember that Moiraine said in TEOTW that "Fain said he has been made the Dark One's hound, and in a way he is right. The Father of Lies set Fain to hunt, first changing him so he could carry out that hunt."
she continues saying that,"After that, Fain was taken to Shayol Ghul again, and his mind was - distilled, What he had sensed... was concentrated and fed back."
This quote doesn't point out that Fain was bonded to Rand or even that he is ta'veren, only that the Dark One (through his own power or skills) allowed Fain an ability to hunt and sniff out LTT.
However, I do agree that Fain has an important role in th LB, just like Mat and Perrin though he won't help Rand out.
I want to know what the Forsaken mean by when they say that mordeth was an old friend, an old enemy, cause it sounds like they knew him but they couldn't know anybody in the trolloc War Era since they were imprisoned in the Bore.
anybody have any ideas?
padanfain: 2005-05-11
It's a interesting theory, but just because he feels pulled to Rand it doesn't mean he's ta'veren - but he might very well be it. Haven't thought about this before but there IS a certain similarity between the way Fain and Perrin feels.
If the DO can make people ta'veren why hasn't he made more of the darkfriends to become ta'veren ? Wouldn't that help them ?
About the bond part, since the DOs so powerful we can be sure he can do a lot of things the Aes Sedai can't, and couldn't creating a bond without physical contact and only Fain feeling it and not Rand, be on of them ?
Right now I don't really have an opinion about this theory - it's a good idea and it might be true but I need a little bit more proof...
Besides, I'm pretty sure Fain is going to have a special place in the Last Battle...
MatCauthon: 2005-05-11
Fain feels Rand and the others because the DO made him his hound to search them out. Also added was a compulsion to do so no matter what. Don't have my books atm but you should see references to this from Fain POV in The Eye of the World and probably The Great Hunt as well.
bigjellybeans: 2005-05-11
At times in the WOT series talks of taveren have also gone into ones taveren strength. Rand is the strongest taveren ever surpassing even Hawkwing and has more pull than Mat and Perrin. So it means that there are lesser degrees of taveren. So it might be entirely possible that Fain is a taveren only to a much smaller maybe even minute degree.
The Dragons Steward of The Mat Fan Club: 2005-05-11
It certainly seems possible. I remember Loial mentioning that people are usually ta'veren for a period of time, not for their whole lives.
The only thing thats bugging me is that Perrin and Mat only feel rand pulling at them when he needs them (they dont feel the tug anymore, though there is no indication that they are no longer ta'veren- though that is a possibility as well.) Fain on the other hand feels a constant pull, and Rand certainly doesn't need him.
But it is very possible. Fain also manages to do some very unlikely things- influence with pedron niall, the amrylin seat, etc. That could be attributed to ta'veren.
Callandor: 2005-05-11
**Then I wondered, how would that be possible? My two options were that he would have had to bond with Rand(warder/Aes Sedai), and even if that was possible, Padan Fain would have needed physical contact to do it. The only reason I even considered that option was because the Dark One could have made the Bond, since Padan Fain can't use Saidan. Here is a quote that backs up the Bond theory:**
Fain is way too much of a whopping lunatic to be bonded, without driving the person bonded insane. Aes Sedai can bond Myrddraal, but they do eventually drive them insane -- Fain is much worse.
**"It was hard for him to concentrate on one thing for long anyway. Except Rand al'Thor, of course. He could feel Rand al'thor, could point to him, this close. al'Thor pulled at him, pulled till it hurt." Now compare to Perrin feeling the same "pull":
"I know", he said softly."I can feel him tugging at me." His voice was so strange that she reached up to grip his short beard and make him look down at her. His golden eyes, still as strange and mysterious to her as ever, looked sad. "what do you mean? You might think fondly of Gwil, but he-" "It's Rand, Faile. He needs me."**
If anything, that only proves that Rand is ta'veren, since he is the one doing the pulling.
**I think we have covered the point. My only other though is, if Padan Fain is Ta'veren, than maybe he has a speciel place in the Last Battle, just like Man, Perrin, and Rand.**
Fain is a wild card (RJ said that). So, someone like him, given his motives, definately has an important impact on the Last Battle.
JakOShadows: 2005-05-11
It seems like there's enough evidence here to prove he doesn't only sense Rand through taver'n. Now he could be that too, but we do not know for sure. Rather, I think it is like a tracking dog. The dog one gave Fain the 'scent' of Rand, and now he won't stop feeling that pull until he catches Rand. Which I think will be at the last battle, at the most pivotal point of the book. I also think that he seems to thrive on chaos, and that's where there would be the most chaos would be at that moment.
JakOShadows: 2005-05-11
Sorry, on that last post, I meant the Dark One. I really feel stupid now.
Yaga Shura: 2005-05-12
Tam:
"do we have any one who is not Ta'veren that describes Rand pulling at them?"
Yes, we do.
Min feels it in TGH, ch48, First Claiming
"there was something drawing her on, as surely as if she had a string tied to her"
"It was in there, somewhere, that she had to go"
With regards to the theory, I thought that there was somewhere (an interview, possibly) where RJ has said Padan Fain is outside the Pattern? If that was the case, Fain could surely not be ta'veren.
Heron: 2005-05-13
Let's look at this another way. Ta'veren are important threads in the pattern. They change the course of other threads around them. I believe the analogy was a leaf in a whirlpool is as a normal person to a Ta'veren. Now, does Fain have significant influence in many other people's lives? Heck yes. Everyone that he has prolonged contact (or repeated contact) with, and some people that he spends little time with, is changed afterwards. We have the boys, all of the Two Rivers, some of the tower Aes Sedai, the random knifings (in the tower, in ... I can't find my books, but the city where channelling doesn't work) ... Even if all Fain did was jerk Rand's chain, that's significant influence. I definately support the idea that Fain is Ta'veren.
JakOShadows: 2005-05-13
If it is true that creator gives the gift of being ta'veren, then it could be that even though he's evil he is needed in some way. And so he bestows his gift so he will survive. But this idea would depend on future events. This is definitely an rafo idea I'm suggesting.
Callandor: 2005-05-13
**With regards to the theory, I thought that there was somewhere (an interview, possibly) where RJ has said Padan Fain is outside the Pattern? If that was the case, Fain could surely not be ta'veren.**
**Question: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?
RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.**
I've always interpreted this to be that Fain is unaffected by ta'veren pulls and pre-determination (otherwise how can he be wild card? ;)). I feel this is supported because when Min sees him in A Crown of Swords, while she is Viewing many people, she sees absolutely no Viewings around Fain. While it maybe that Min's Viewings just weren't working at the time, however when she does get Viewings, they tend to happen in groups of people (Rand and co. in The Eye of the World; the Aes Sedai and servants in the White Tower in The Shadow Rising; the Aes Sedai in Salidar in The Fires of Heaven and Lord of Chaos; the nobles in A Crown of Swords; and the Aes Sedai (and others) that swear to Rand in The Path of Daggers).
Also, Fain may not be under the influence of the Pattern, but RJ makes no indication that Fain is beyond the Wheel by any degree, and it is the Wheel that designates ta'veren.
But really, I don't see Fain as a ta'veren at all for one big reason: Fain feels a need to hunt Rand, but Rand tugs at him, not Fain tugs at Rand. That is the key thing about ta'veren:
**TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 2 - Saidin
"Ta'veren," Loial began. Perrin waved at him to stop, but the Ogier could seldom be slowed, much less stopped, when one of his enthusiasms had him in its grip. He was accounted extremely hasty, by the Ogier way of looking at things. Loial pushed his book into a coat pocket and went on, gesturing with his pipe. "All of us, all of our lives, affect the lives of others, Min. ~As the Wheel of Time weaves us into the Pattern, the life-thread of each of us pulls and tugs at the life-threads around us. Ta'veren are the same, only much, much more so. They tug at the entire Pattern - for a time, at least - forcing it to shape around them.~ The closer you are to them, the more you are affected personally. It's said that if you were in the same room with Artur Hawkwing, you could feel the Pattern rearranging itself. I don't know how true that is, but I've read that it was. But it doesn't only work one way. Ta'veren themselves are woven to a tighter line than the rest of us, with fewer choices."**
**. Now, does Fain have significant influence in many other people's lives? Heck yes. Everyone that he has prolonged contact (or repeated contact) with, and some people that he spends little time with, is changed afterwards.**
Do Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve affect people's lives? Of course they do, Egwene especially because she is Amyrlin.
However, the thing that is important, is that none of those three are ta'veren. They do, however, work and react to events of the 3 ta'veren (Rand especiall).
Look at it this way. In Crossroads of Twilight, Egwene called the Hall of the Tower, and they made a few critical decisions toward the future of the White Tower -- mainly the plan to work with the Asha'man. That is a majorly important event in the history of the Tower -- Egwene facilitated it. However, what was the cause of that decision, the original cause? The Cleansing of saidin. Who facilitated that event? Rand al'Thor.
Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, and many many characters feed off the currents of Rand's ta'vereness (Mat and Perrin do it as well, but they have the ability to also start changes similar to Rand's but seemingly in smaller scale).
This quote I think signifies it the best (this is Moiraine talking to Egwene and Nynaeve):
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 43 - Decisions and Apparitions
Moiraine nodded. ~"You are part of the Pattern, too, both of you, in some fashion. Perhaps not ta'veren - perhaps - but strong even so.~ I have known it since Baerlon. And no doubt by this time the Fades know it, too. And Ba'alzamon. Yet you have as much choice as the young men. You could remain here, proceed to Tar Valon once the rest of us have gone."**
They are not ta'veren -- but still important threads. The same could easily be true of Fain.
gleeman: 2005-05-15
**Wasn't this explained as the Dark One distilling the essence of Rand and the boys souls, and attuning him to those essences? Fain's powers may somewhat mimic the ta'veren effect, but that doesn't make him ta'veren. The Anti-ta'veren, maybe.
Actually, I don't ever remember Fain being pulled to Mat or Perrin. Rand is the only one that Fain feels, just like Mat and Perrin feel Rand in their minds.
I really like this theory, and I think that it explains a lot. Just because Fain is the Do's "hound" doesn't mean that hes not Ta'veren, is just means that the DO is using Fain to track Rand.
However, one thing that would nearly disprove this theory would be a quote where Rand sees colors flashing in his head when he thinks about Mat or Perrin. I can recall times when Mat and Perrin saw the colors thinking about Rand, but not the other way around. If Rand never saw the colors, it would mean that they were an effect caused by a great Ta'veren pulling on lesser Ta'veren (meaning Fain would see colors when thinking about Rand) But, if Rand did see colors, it just mean that the web is trying to draw the three together for something great.
Nine Moons: 2005-05-15
I like this theory very much. It is certainly very probable. However, there is one thing that MIGHT affect it.
Fain isn't controlled by the Pattern any longer. The only way this could mean anything is if ta'veren have to be somewhat controlled by the Pattern.
Otherwise, it works.
Callandor: 2005-05-16
**Actually, I don't ever remember Fain being pulled to Mat or Perrin. Rand is the only one that Fain feels, just like Mat and Perrin feel Rand in their minds.**
Yes, Fain senses all 3 ta'veren -- Rand is just the one he senses the strongest.
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 11 - Glimmers of the Pattern
Padan Fain stared northward out into the night, past the only fire in his camp, smiling a fixed smile that never touched his eyes. He still thought of himself as Padan Fain - Padan Fain was the core of him - but he had been changed, and he knew it. He knew many things, now, more than any of his old masters could suspect. *He had been a Darkfriend long years before Ba'alzamon summoned him and set him on the track of the three young men from Emond's Field, distilling what he knew of them, distilling him, and feeding the essence back ~so that he could feel them,~ smell where they had been, follow wherever they ran. Especially the one.* A part of him still cringed, remembering what Ba'alzamon had done to him, but it was a small part, hidden, suppressed. He was changed. ~Following the three had led him into Shadar Logoth.~ He had not wanted to go, but he had had to obey. Then. And in Shadar Logoth....**
**However, one thing that would nearly disprove this theory would be a quote where Rand sees colors flashing in his head when he thinks about Mat or Perrin. I can recall times when Mat and Perrin saw the colors thinking about Rand, but not the other way around. If Rand never saw the colors, it would mean that they were an effect caused by a great Ta'veren pulling on lesser Ta'veren (meaning Fain would see colors when thinking about Rand) But, if Rand did see colors, it just mean that the web is trying to draw the three together for something great.**
Rand has had the most color flashes, IIRC.
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 7 - Pitfalls and Tripwires
Rand muted the voice to an insect's buzz, something he had learned while cramped into that chest. Alone, in the dark. Just him, and the pain, and the thirst, and the voice of a long-dead madman. The voice had been a comfort sometimes, his only companion. His friend. *Something flashed in his mind. Not images, just flickers of color and motion. For some reason they made him think of Mat, and Perrin. The flashes had begun inside the chest, them and a thousand more hallucinations.* In the chest, where Galina and Brian and Katerine and the rest stuffed him every day after he was beaten. He shook his head. No. He was not in the chest anymore. His fingers ached, clenched around scepter and hilt. Only memories remained, and memories had no force. He was not—**
**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 7 - Pitfalls and Tripwires
I have to kill them, Lews Therin whispered. Shoving the voice back, Rand sent one of the Maidens, Nerilea, a square-faced woman, into the palace and began pacing alongside the wagons, thoughts spinning again, faster than before. He should not have come here. He should have sent Fedwin, with a letter. Spinning. Elayne. Aviendha. Perrin. Faile. Annoura. Berelain. Mat. Light, he should not have come. Elayne and Aviendha. Annoura and Berelain. Faile and Perrin and Mat. *Flashes of color, quick motion just out of sight.* A madman muttering angrily in the distance.**
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 41 - A Crown of Swords
Tossing, Rand dreamed, wild dreams where he argued with Perrin and begged Mat to find Elayne, *where colors flashed just beyond sight* and Padan Fain leaped at him with a flashing blade, and sometimes he thought he heard a voice moaning for a dead woman in the heart of a fog, dreams where he tried to explain himself to Elayne, to Aviendha, to Min, to all three at once, and even Min looked at him with scorn.**
Sure there are more, but I don't want to belabor a point.
**Fain isn't controlled by the Pattern any longer. The only way this could mean anything is if ta'veren have to be somewhat controlled by the Pattern.**
Ta'veren are controlled tightly by the Wheel -- more so than any other threads. That's how they have in reality fewer choices than other people, but can have the greatest effect on the Pattern.
drz1649: 2005-05-16
Two counterpoints:
1) Fain was altered by the DO sometime before the first book so that he could "sense" the Dragon. This alteration was the cause of the Mordeth/Fain meld rather than a Mordeth possession of Fain's body (or so prevailing opinion says. It's not explicit in the books)
So the attraction he feels to Rand, although similar to the ta'veren pull, is due the attackhound abilities given to him by the DO (and his obsession). Even if the attraction was due to Rand's ta'veren nature that doesn't mean Fain is ta'veren. After all, Rand influences everything and everyone for miles around him, yet there are only three confirmed (and living) ta'veren in the whole world. His influence is not restricted to other ta'veren.
2) While Fain is imprisoned in Fal Dara in TEOTW/TGH Suian Sanche uses her ta'veren sensing ability to recognise Rands special status. She confides later that the magnitude of his "ta'veren-ness" terrified her. Yet she makes no comment about Fain, who she must have seen at some point (I can't remember exactly). Given the rarity of ta'veren the absence of such a comment can be considered proof that he is not (or wasn't at that time) ta'veren.
Just because he is an influential character doesn't mean he is ta'veren. As others have said there are plenty of influential people in Randland, yet there is little suggestion of "Ishy/Moridin is ta'veren" or the like.
Unless the definition of ta'veren is much more trivial than it seems. The importance of certain concepts has changed throughout the series after all.
Asmodean: 2005-05-17
Fain is NOT Ta'veren..his influences are caused in part by his abilities from DO and his corruption fom the dagger..Moiraine said something bout Mat in TGH bout if Mat had the dagger long enough..he will be corrupted and his corruption will spread to others...that is the deal with Fain..like said above..if he was Ta'veren..we would have known by now..all three of our Ta'veren have had comments about their ta'verenness by those who can sense the abilty..Fain has never been commented on
Davian93: 2005-06-03
Just a thought, but it wasnt actually the DO that attuned Fain to Rand, it was actually Ishy.
****His words. 'Ba'alzamon appeared like a flickering candle flame, vanishing and reappearing, never in the same place twice. His eyes seared the Myrddraal, and the fires of his mouth scourged us."****
Fain is the one who believed Belazamon was the DO when we know that it was actually Ishy. For example:
****Fain was terrified, of course, but it is considered a very great honor among Darkfriends to be so summoned. Fain believed he had been chosen for great things, and he had, though not in the manner he believed. He was brought north to the Blight, to the Blasted Lands. To Shayol Ghul. Where he met a man with eyes of fire, who named himself Ba'alzamon." ****
So whatever was done to him was done by a Forsaken, not the DO.
brother of Battles: 2005-06-03
Nope not a chance. Padan Fain was a hound made by the DO himself then change again from Mordeth. He can't twist chance aound him. He can build on the lies and deseption around him, but has no control over it weather unknowlegded or knowledged. He has powers, but not Ta'veren.
Rogosh Eagle-eye: 2005-06-07
Does anyone besides me see a Padan Fain/Gollum connection. It seems to me that Fain will be necessary at the last battle in the same way as Gollum had to be at mount doom, to fulfill the the blood of the dragon on the slopes of shayol gul prophecy most likely
Anubis: 2005-06-07
Nah, Fain will be at the Last Battle because it will be the time when both Rand, and the Dark One are at their weakest. Perfect opportunity for him to finally do some damage, and considering that he hates the Dark One just as much as he hates Rand, I couldnt see him not being there.
Narianna: 2005-06-08
a good ending from my pov involving padan fain woould be that he kills shaidar haran;rand seals the bore,finally;fain takes out rand from behind in a deadly thrust;rand overdoses on saidin and dies ala LTT taking fain with him.
BUT wait if rand overdoses on saidin near shayol ghul won't it have recurpussions(??) on the bore.
crap it!! i'm destroying my own hyppothesis.
JakOShadows: 2005-06-08
Nariana: I like your idea there. But what if Padan Fain shows up too late and instead stabs Rand after Rand has sealed the DO's prison. Then someone kills him and Rand dies from the stab wound. Vwalah. Blood on the rocks of Shayul Ghul. Now I don't have quotes for this so feel free to chew it up.
Narianna: 2005-06-09
yup that's also a distinct possibility.as for quotes i don't think there are any quotes about the last battle and the dragon except for his blood on the rocks and yada yada...
however i would like to ask elders out there that if rand does an LTT at the sealing of the bore, will it affect the bore?is so , how?IIRC shayol ghul is described as the thinnest place in the pattern even in the age of legends.can channeling laaarge amounts at the bore open the way to DO's prison even if it is done accidently or it takes a specialised drilling operation to do it?
Tristin: 2005-06-10
Anthropomorphizing the Pattern:
Ok so there has to be balance in the wheel of time and all that...fine. But the real question we should be asking is whether or not the Pattern roles out the Taveren it needs in order to save itself. That isn't to say its conscious or anything like that but even if it is just trying to put the right people in the right place at the right time so that the basic pattern keeps repeating...its the same thing. The Pattern doesn't want the DO to win. If he does the Pattern won't be the Pattern any more. He'll recreate or destroy it or whatever and that will be the end of that. Rand is drawn out, along with Matt and Perrin to stop this from happening. In my opinion this makes Taveren a tool, if not of the Light at least a tool for the patterns purposes.
It isn't clear to me Padan Fain could be Ta'veren. The Pattern doesn't need him to do what he's doing UNLESS it needs him to help kill Rand or end Rand's Ta'veren'ness or something. But an evil ta'veren to help the side of the DO doesn't seem to make much sense if the Pattern is looking after itself. I would say that Fain is Ta'veren because he needs to kill Rand, or maybe that he was for a time so he could wound Rand. OR that the Dark One is in effect the one who creates baddy Taveren. The Pattern is a construct of the Creator. The Dark One wants to reshape it or destroy it making him kind of an antithesis to it or a coutner pattern. This means that people like the Forsaken are his attempt at Ta'veren to make things go his way...I think Fain is just one of these...like Moridin and Shadar Haran its just another attempt to get his own pattern established, etc.
WOTfreak: 2005-06-10
wow, I've gotten a lot of feedback. anyhow, I've been thinking on my theory after reading some of your replies. I find it interesting that you say Padan Fain is outside the pattern. This makes a lot of sense, because the Dark One said that he has no power over time, yet Mordeth and Padan Fain became one, even though they were from different times. Maybe once the Dark One is freed, he will be outside the pattern like Taim.
I am also going to add another option to my theory about why Padan Fain can feel Rand. Maybe when Mat, Perrin and Rand first met up with Mordeth, they formed a slight bond. When he later met up with Fain, that bond carried over. I find this interesting, but I do think I remember reading somewhere about Fain being made into the'hound' by the Dark one, so it probably isn't right.
Callandor: 2005-06-10
**a good ending from my pov involving padan fain woould be that he kills shaidar haran;rand seals the bore,finally;fain takes out rand from behind in a deadly thrust;rand overdoses on saidin and dies ala LTT taking fain with him.**
I think you've been reading my ideas one too many times for liking ;)
Unless this is a miraculous coincidence.
**however i would like to ask elders out there that if rand does an LTT at the sealing of the bore, will it affect the bore?**
Why would it?
**can channeling laaarge amounts at the bore open the way to DO's prison even if it is done accidently or it takes a specialised drilling operation to do it?**
The Bore is everywhere at once in the world -- it is only felt the strongest at Shayol Ghul because of that thinness.
So, the effect on the Bore should be the exact same as the effect Lews Therin's death had on it: from what we've seen -- absolutely none.
**But the real question we should be asking is whether or not the Pattern roles out the Taveren it needs in order to save itself.**
It spins out ta'veren to replace the balance. Humanity and it's free will choices have been throwing it off it's predicted course, and the ta'veren set the balance and course back in line for the Pattern.
**The Pattern doesn't want the DO to win.**
Of course not -- it doesn't want anything. The Pattern is indifferent. It just weaves. It's like saying your computer will save you if a burgler breaks into your house. It won't -- it will just sit there because it's a computer.
** I would say that Fain is Ta'veren because he needs to kill Rand, or maybe that he was for a time so he could wound Rand.**
You don't have to be ta'veren to kill a ta'veren. Fain can kill Rand easily just by going off Rand's own ta'veren force -- after all, Rand has a predicted death, and ta'veren have fewer choices than anyone else.
**OR that the Dark One is in effect the one who creates baddy Taveren.**
No. Only the Wheel creates ta'veren. The Dark One does not come into play in that respect.
**This means that people like the Forsaken are his attempt at Ta'veren to make things go his way...I think Fain is just one of these...like Moridin and Shadar Haran its just another attempt to get his own pattern established, etc.**
It is, but they are not ta'veren. The Forsaken are threads in the Pattern like anyone else.
As far as we know, there is only Rand, Mat, and Perrin as ta'veren in the world. Everyone else, and I do mean everyone from a farmer in the Two Rivers to Egwene bloody al'Vere, goes off the forces and reprocussions of those three, and in a larger effect everyone goes off the forces of Rand and the effects of what he does. The Forsaken are no exception to this, though I am sure the Dark One would prefer if they could be.
Callandor: 2005-06-11
**wow, I've gotten a lot of feedback. anyhow, I've been thinking on my theory after reading some of your replies. I find it interesting that you say Padan Fain is outside the pattern. This makes a lot of sense, because the Dark One said that he has no power over time, yet Mordeth and Padan Fain became one, even though they were from different times. Maybe once the Dark One is freed, he will be outside the pattern like Taim.**
1. When is the Dark One getting free?
2. Fain may have been side-stepping the Pattern, but he is still bound by the Wheel -- the Dark One is beyond both.
3. I believe you meant Fain, not Taim.
**I am also going to add another option to my theory about why Padan Fain can feel Rand. Maybe when Mat, Perrin and Rand first met up with Mordeth, they formed a slight bond. When he later met up with Fain, that bond carried over. I find this interesting, but I do think I remember reading somewhere about Fain being made into the'hound' by the Dark one, so it probably isn't right.**
No, the sensing is from the distilling that Fain underwent becoming the Dark One's hound:
**TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 11 - Glimmers of the Pattern
"Padan Fain stared northward out into the night, past the only fire in his camp, smiling a fixed smile that never touched his eyes. He still thought of himself as Padan Fain - Padan Fain was the core of him - but he had been changed, and he knew it. He knew many things, now, more than any of his old masters could suspect. He had been a Darkfriend long years before Ba'alzamon summoned him and set him on the track of the three young men from Emond's Field, distilling what he knew of them, distilling him, and feeding the essence back so that he could feel them, smell where they had been, follow wherever they ran. Especially the one. A part of him still cringed, remembering what Ba'alzamon had done to him, but it was a small part, hidden, suppressed. He was changed. Following the three had led him into Shadar Logoth. He had not wanted to go, but he had had to obey. Then. And in Shadar Logoth . . . .**
Tristin: 2005-06-11
Callandor, I don't think the computer analogy works. So the Creator puts the dark one in his prison. Creates the wheel puts it in motion. (All the while I'm hoping Free Will isn't going to read this post or I'll never hear the end of this). The Pattern is exactly that its a pattern. It is the software that works within the framework of the hardware (the wheel) for a desired purpose. In this analogy the Creator is the programmer I guess. But low and behold there is another programmer (DO) who is quite substandard compared to the Creator. The Creator locks up the crap programmer within a prison that is run by hardware and software that he has created and written respectively.
(On a complete theological side note I wonder if the purpose of the wheel and the pattern is to provide a prison for the DO or whether the Creator would have Created even if there wasn't a DO...hmmm).
Right so now we have this other programmer who works from within his prison to hack the program and remake the program so that he can escape his prison and steal the hardware so he can run his own software (mostly first person shooter video games).
Luckily the Creator was a good programmer. He set the program to run in infinite sets of Patterns. Because the DO is imprisoned inside of time (I think), he is doomed to try and fail in the same patterns over and over again. (The trick being that if he can get outside of time [Lord of the Dead] then he might be able to break the cycle). Within the program there are certain .exe files that are set to run at certain times to ensure that the patterns continue as they should. These are Taveren.
Moreover, the use of these Taveren is also what I mean by the Pattern not wanting the DO to win. The Pattern itself is designed not to let him.
In this sense there couldn't really be a Taveren that would help the DO to break free, because the Taveren would stop being Taveren if destruction of the Pattern itself was imminent. That is why I say that Forsaken are like Taveren to the DO. They are the closest he can get. They are his attempt to hack into the pattern and neutralize all the Taveren that have always and will always arise to keep him within the infinite cycle of failure.
Antonio Cappello: 2005-06-11
To start, please excuse my lack of a textbook knowledge about these books, but this is my first post. On to my opinion... I really don't think that Padan Fain is Ta'veren. From what has been shown in the books so far, Ta'veren affect each other regardless of how powerful thry are. With how close Rand came to Fain in TGH, he would be hard-pressed not to be drawn to Fain (if he was Ta'veren).
WOTfreak: 2005-06-11
Someone said in a previous post that it was actually Ishmael who made fain his hound. I think he may be on to something there. Ishmael really believed he was the dark one, or if not, he wanted to be. It would make sense that he would be the one to make Fain the hound. The only hole i have to pick in this theory is that Fain went to Shayol Gul, where the actual Dark One is.
**WOW, on an unrelated topic, I just remembered something i read in one of the wheel of time books. If someone could find an exact quote that would be great. Something about when the Dark one gets free, he would go on a great hunt, and it mentioned something about hounds. Moiraine assumed this referred to the Darkhounds, or whatever they are called, but i think it may refer to Fain.
Callandor: 2005-06-11
**Callandor, I don't think the computer analogy works. So the Creator puts the dark one in his prison. Creates the wheel puts it in motion. (All the while I'm hoping Free Will isn't going to read this post or I'll never hear the end of this). The Pattern is exactly that its a pattern. It is the software that works within the framework of the hardware (the wheel) for a desired purpose. In this analogy the Creator is the programmer I guess. But low and behold there is another programmer (DO) who is quite substandard compared to the Creator. The Creator locks up the crap programmer within a prison that is run by hardware and software that he has created and written respectively.**
I wasn't going for a complete analogy -- simply making the correction that the Pattern is indifferent. You could substitute any inanimate object in place of the compter -- it doesn't matter.
**(On a complete theological side note I wonder if the purpose of the wheel and the pattern is to provide a prison for the DO or whether the Creator would have Created even if there wasn't a DO...hmmm).**
1. The Pattern is not the Dark One's prison in any way or sense. The Dark One's prison was made by the Creator and we don't know what it is or how it really works. All we know is that he made it, and at the moment of creation.
2. Would the Creator have made the world without the Dark One being there?
**Luckily the Creator was a good programmer. He set the program to run in infinite sets of Patterns. Because the DO is imprisoned inside of time (I think), he is doomed to try and fail in the same patterns over and over again.**
No. The Dark One is not subject to time. Does he try the same things again and again? Overall, I'd say yes, but I can't really see him as a "superior being" if you even want to classify him as that, if he didn't try a few new things now and again ;)
**Moreover, the use of these Taveren is also what I mean by the Pattern not wanting the DO to win. The Pattern itself is designed not to let him.**
In essence, no, it is not designed to let the Dark One win. But if that event occurs, it will happen and the Pattern won't do anything about it. The Pattern is designed for balance; not one side or the other.
That was the point of my analogy before, just simplified -- the Pattern will weave whatever will happen (like if the Dark One is going to win, it will put up what you would call a "good fight" against it, but it ultimately comes down to the people and their choices, not the Pattern), and not give a total victory to one side or the other. The Dark One won't break free, but he won't be destroyed or completely imprisoned for all time either.
**In this sense there couldn't really be a Taveren that would help the DO to break free, because the Taveren would stop being Taveren if destruction of the Pattern itself was imminent.**
That is entirely supposition. Not that I'm against the idea, just that it's not based on anything ;)
**That is why I say that Forsaken are like Taveren to the DO.**
They're not. They are simply threads. They work off the ta'veren nature of the 3 ta'veren in the world (I know your point and understand it, but I'm a stickler for semantics on certain issues).
**Someone said in a previous post that it was actually Ishmael who made fain his hound. I think he may be on to something there. Ishmael really believed he was the dark one, or if not, he wanted to be. It would make sense that he would be the one to make Fain the hound. The only hole i have to pick in this theory is that Fain went to Shayol Gul, where the actual Dark One is.**
Ishamael was certainly involved in the process. Whether it had to be done in Shayol Ghul because Ishamael was still partially trapped by the Bore, or if it had to be at Shayol Ghul because there were some things that even Ishamael could not do and the Dark One had to have a hand in those -- we do not know. We know that Ishamael was for sure involved, because the Dark One did not take physical form to summon Fain ;)
Anubis: 2005-06-11
Everyone seems to think that Ishmael believes he is the Dark One, but Ishmael doesnt seem to believe it.
Lilbaz: 2005-08-14
What is a Taveren? It is a person that the Creator/Pattern has special plans for, so he/it will alter events in order for that person to fulfill his destiny. As the DO is the arch enemy of the Creator/Pattern no darkfriends can be Taveren. Although the darkone may (try to)lend a hand to influence events to his advantage although this is limited as he is sealed in the bore. Methinks....
Callandor: 2005-08-14
**What is a Taveren? It is a person that the Creator/Pattern has special plans for, so he/it will alter events in order for that person to fulfill his destiny.**
Kinda.
**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
"In such a world change is simply a predetermined part of the mechanism. Only a few individuals, special souls known as ta'veren, can cause the fabric of the pattern to bend around them, changing the weave. These ta'veren are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change. These key threads often produce major variations in the Pattern of an Age. Such major changes are called, in the old tongue, ta'maral'ailen, or the "Web of Destiny."
Even the ta'veren and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out <[i>ta'veren whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern. The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel's own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more ta'veren spun out into the world.**