hangu & Nidao were not Darkfriends
by Frenzy: 2006-02-21 | 4.25 out of 10 (16 votes)
Previous Categories: Padan Fain
I've had this theory brewing in the back of my mind for over six years now. I'm surprised I never got around to posting it. Probably because it's glaringly obvious. Anyway...
I do not think that Changu and Nidao, the two guards who went missing from Fal Dara after the Trolloc attack, were darkfriends. Yes, the evidence points to them being darkfriends: helping a prisoner escape, murdered compatriots, desertion of duty, etc. But there is another possible explanation. One, in my opinion, that is far more probable.
The Great Hunt CHAPTER: 3 Friends and Enemies
"They know me better than that," she said, but she sounded troubled, and she added, "They seem worse every time I come. All the guards do. Meaner, and more sullen. Changu told jokes the first time I came, and Nidao never even speaks anymore. But I suppose working in a place like this can't give a man a light heart. Maybe it is just me. This place does not do my heart any good, either."
There was a steady decline in their attitudes, and we know that exposure to Fain will warp a person (evidence later in The Great Hunt, and also in The Shadow Rising with Fain’s Whitecloaks)
The Great Hunt CHAPTER: 9 - Leavetakings
"Changu and Nidao are gone," Ingtar said abruptly. He sounded cold and angry, but shaken, too. "We counted every head in the keep, alive or dead, last night and again this morning. They are the only ones not accounted for. " "Changu was on guard in the dungeon yesterday," Rand said slowly. "And Nidao. They had the second watch. They always stayed together, even if they had to trade or do extra duty for it. They were not on guard when it happened, but . . . . They fought at Tarwin's Gap, a month gone, and saved Lord Agelmar when his horse went down with Trollocs all around him. Now this. Darkfriends." He drew a deep breath. "Everything is breaking apart."
Cold and angry, and shaken. Ingtar didn’t think of them as Darkfriends. That alone isn’t enough to exonerate them of being darkfriends, but it helps.
The Great Hunt CHAPTER: 10 - The Hunt Begins
At first Rand thought the figures hanging by their arms from the thick gray limbs of the stoneoak were scarecrows. Crimson scarecrows. Then he recognized the two faces. Changu, and the other man who had been on guard with him. Nidao. Eyes staring, teeth bared in a rictus of pain. They had lived a long time after it began.
They were tortured by Fain and left as a message for Rand’s group. Why those two? Any two darkfriends mutilated like that would have an impression, but two who werent’ would leave a larger one.
The Great Hunt CHAPTER: 10 - The Hunt Begins
Rand was shocked, but Loial explained softly. "Shienarans believe we all came from earth, and must return to earth. They never use coffins or shrouds, and the bodies are never clothed. The earth must hold the body. The last embrace of the mother, they call it. And there are never any words except `The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home."' Loial sighed and shook his huge head. "I do not think anyone will say them this time. No matter what Ingtar says, Rand, there cannot be much doubt that Changu and Nidao slew the guards at the Dog Gate and let the Darkfriends into the keep. It had to be they who were responsible for all of it."
Before they rode away, Ingtar paused on his horse beside the unmarked graves, two mounds of bare earth that looked too small to hold men. After a moment he said, "The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home." When he raised his head, he looked at each man in turn. There was no expression on any face, least of all on Ingtar's. "They saved Lord Agelmar at Tarwin's Gap," he said. Several of the lancers nodded. Ingtar turned his horse.
Ingtar’s being a darkfriend is akin to the Brotherless: for him it’s the lesser of two evils. That said, I’d think he would have a very low opinion of Darkfriends who are in it for themselves. I doubt he would bother to say the benediction over a pair of darkfriends.
The Shadow Rising CHAPTER: 56 – Goldeneyes
He let himself drop to the ground, and scrambled onto his horse before looking at his companions. his hounds. The thirty or so Whitecloaks remaining no longer wore their white cloaks, of course. Rust spotted their dull plate-and-mail, and Bornhald would never have recognized those sullen, suspicious faces, dirty and unshaven. The humans watched Ordeith, distrustful yet afraid, not even glancing at the Myrddraal in their midst, its slug-pale, eyeless face as bleakly wooden as theirs.
Whitecloaks with slack discipline? Whitecloaks who abandon their Captain? Whitecloaks willingly accepting a myrddraal in their midst?! Obviously Fain’s influence can have a large influence on a person’s personality, ethics, whatever.
So we have the following:
1) Changu & Nidao are heavily exposed to Fain’s influence while they guarded him
2) Lord Ingtar, a known darkfriend (albeit a reluctant one), reacts to Changu & Nidao as if they were not darkfriends as well.
3) Prolonged exposure to Padan Fain can radically his victim’s personality.
Conclusion: Changu & Nidao were not Darkfriends. They were corrupted by Padan Fain, and driven to desertion and murder by his influence.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2006-04-01
I wonder why Fain tortured them. They seem to be his first two acolytes, similar to those whitecloaks you discuss. I agree with you, initially, you accept the idea, as the reader, that they were darkfriends, but you clarify this with those quotes. Ingtar doesn't appear suspicious. He didn't believe it because they weren't darkfriends. I wonder if, after someone is no longer around Fain, if his affect drains away over time. I am guessing that Fain had much more on his hands, with the horn, than worrying about these two guards, and I wonder if they woke from his influence, but were unable to escape? But then again, Fain wasn't sane.
2
Callandor: 2006-04-01
I agree. There's really not much else to say, unless people want to discuss how this can be applicable to other situations, and the varying degrees of time spent by Fain. The only other example I would suggest is Toram Raitin due to the time he spent with Fain, and his growing hatred of Rand to pure fury.
3
Ozymandias: 2006-04-01
I don't really see what Ingtar has to do with any of this. Your entire theory hedges around the fact that Ingtar would show scorn or contempt for these two if they were indeed Darkfriends.
**They fought at Tarwin's Gap, a month gone, and saved Lord Agelmar when his horse went down with Trollocs all around him. Now this. Darkfriends." He drew a deep breath. "Everything is breaking apart."
Cold and angry, and shaken. Ingtar didn’t think of them as Darkfriends. That alone isn’t enough to exonerate them of being darkfriends, but it helps.**
I think the point is that Ingtar DOES think of them as Darkfriends. Or at least, thats what the wording of the quotation suggests.
And your references to the slack discipline among the Whitecloaks is also suspect. Lets remember this. Changu and Nidao were in proximity to Mordeth for what? Maybe a total of 24-48 hours in total, if that. Fain was only in the jail for a few days at most, I think, and the guards have different shifts. But I'll be generous, maybe Rand and Co were in Fal Dara for a while (I don't remember how long). It couldn't have been more than what? A month? And Changu and Nidao couldn't have been in contact with Fain for more than a third of that. So 10 days. Is ten days enough to have that kind of effect? Said Whitecloaks spent months in the saddle with Fain, talking to him and sleeping next to him and interacting with him on a close and personal basis. Not so with the guards, who most likely kept their distance and were out of earshot for much of the time. Their direct exposure to Fain/Mordeth would have been minimal, not nearly enough to cause this kind of betrayal.
And Ingtar treating them as if they weren't Darkfriends means NOTHING AT ALL. Thats the ultimate catch. Even if all three were Darkfriends, its not only possible but LIKELY that Ingtar would have NO IDEA that the two were Darkfriends as well. We KNOW that Darkfriends operate in highly secret, tight cells.
BWB: Page 70, The Age of Legends
"most Darkfriends only know one or two others, for protection"
So there we have it. Changu and Nidao are best friends, apparently, so it makes sense that they know each other's secret about their loyalty. There is no evidence to suggest that they know about Ingtar as well. They don't interact with him enough to know for sure if he is or not, and therefore visa versa. He probably has no clue about his fellows in the cells. And this is not suprising; beyond the class barrier separating them, Ingtar would be more than hesitant to give out any "signs" that might alert other Darkfriends of his presence. Someone might notice them, and in the tense world of the Borderlands, justice would be swift.
Basically... its highly unlikely that Ingtar would have known about the existence of Changu and Nidao's secret about being Friends of the Dark. And that pretty much knocks out the main strut of your theory. In addition to this, we have no indication that the amount of exposure Changu and Nidao received from Fain are enough to turn them. We DO know that Fain is a relatively high placed Darkfriend (having made the journey to Shayol Ghul), and that there was CERTAINLY enough time for him to give the guards the proper signals, alerting them to the nature of who they held.
4
Ozymandias: 2006-04-02
And in response to Callandor's point, Fain had something to work on with Riatin. He was already pissed at Rand, Mordeth just amplified that. If Changu and Nidao were NOT Darkfriends, then it stands to reason it would have taken exponentially longer for Fain to corrupt such upstanding citizens. If they were Darkfriends, and therefore that moral hole already existed... well, thats a different story, but one which contradicts this theory anyways.
5
Callandor: 2006-04-02
And Changu and Nidao are just immune to this? They wouldn't have anything for Fain to "work on?" You're still saying that Fain's influence is the key thing behind Riatin's ways to Rand; just that he was slightly miffed at Rand beforehand. Fain is still the catalyst.
6
Traveller: 2006-04-03
I agree, basically. I think that it is obvious from the way they changed over the time Fain was there. Howver, I agree with another post that Ingtar thought they were darkfriends.
Frenzy, you said:
"I doubt he would bother to say the benediction over a pair of darkfriends."
when Ingtar said the funeral blessing thing; but i disagree completely. Ingtar was a DF at that point, and you can see that he wanted to be free of it by finding the Horn etc. He said the blessing to prove to himself that even if you were a DF, there was still a chance that when you die you can... still have the blessing you always wanted. That sounds stupid, but I don't know how else to phrase it.
7
Stilicho: 2006-04-03
I didn't realize that anyone thought differently. Of course Fain corrupted them. I suspect most references to them being darkfriends were just generic (and incorrect) descriptions of their "evil" status.
8
The Librarian: 2006-04-03
I have always thought this way too. The time might have been short, but I would think a small, dark dungeon underground is an ideal place for Fain's influence to work. Picture a guard sitting silently in dim torch light thinking dark thought in his boredom. Day by day the thoughts come darker and darker until the conversion is complete. I do agree that Ingtar thought they were darkfriends, but he wouldn't know, would he?
9
Frenzy: 2006-04-03
***I don't really see what Ingtar has to do with any of this. Your entire theory hedges around the fact that Ingtar would show scorn or contempt for these two if they were indeed Darkfriends.***
No, my theory is “hedged†on 2 bits of circumstantial evidence. Neither in and of itself is enough to exonerate, but combined they produce enough reasonable doubt.
***Their direct exposure to Fain/Mordeth would have been minimal, not nearly enough to cause this kind of betrayal.***
Perhaps. But then again, Fain wasn’t hiding who he really was or what his true intentions were while he was being held in a cell as a darkfriend. Ordeith had to maintain a façade of vindictive Light-follower advisor. Fain may have had less time, but he should have been able to do more with it. Plus, a dark, secluded dungeon is just THE perfect mood for that kind of seduction. And Changu & Nidao DID show a marked decline in their attitudes, else Egwene wouldn't've mentioned it.
***We KNOW that Darkfriends operate in highly secret, tight cells. ***
True, but that isn’t enough to paint the dragon’s fang on them. Yes, they were friends and yes, they traded shifts and worked extra so they could hang out together. Sounds pretty normal to me. I did it all the time when I worked through College, does that make me evil? .... Alright, bad example, but you get the idea. They were friends. Best friends. Maybe even pillow friends. But EVERYONE knew they went out of their way to hang out. Doesn’t sound like folks trying to maintain a low profile to me. A darkfriend, especially one in the “swift-justice†arena of the Borderlands, wouldn’t make that mistake. At least if they wanted to live they wouldn’t.
***We DO know that Fain is a relatively high placed Darkfriend (having made the journey to Shayol Ghul), and that there was CERTAINLY enough time for him to give the guards the proper signals, alerting them to the nature of who they held.***
You’re assuming that DF signals are universal. And assuming Fain’s highly ranked because he was chosen to go to Shayol Ghul. I’m more inclined to believe Fain was chosen due to the nature of his profession and the area he worked in. Ba’alzamon had a general idea where his quarry would show up, so he plucked a hound out to hunt it down. I don’t have EotW handy, so I don’t know for sure if Fain was high-ranking, or just “lucky.â€
10
Saidar Haran: 2006-04-03
I agree with this theory; Fain corrupted them. I am convinced due to Egwene's noticing of their decline, though I do not think the Ingtar bits matter.
If Fain corrupts people by amplifying their negative emotions, think of what he could do with Demandred's hatred of Rand.
11
Ozymandias: 2006-04-03
Frenzy don't take my comments out of context. My point about their being in close-knit cells wasn't to prove that their actions incriminated them as Darkfriends; but that because of this natural secretiveness, Ingtar would have no idea that they were Darkfriends.
And I'm fairly certain that any DF signals would be universal. Whats the point of having a secret symbol or gesture when the odds are good that 90% of your compatriots can't understand them? No... I think it can be said with certainty that there are certain basic command & obey signals common to all Darkfriends, which facilitates a high rank DF visiting a new city or on a mission there.
12
Ashaman Zach: 2006-04-06
Firstly, Ingtar was a darkfriend! He murdered the guards and let everyone out. Nidao and changu were taken to raise suspicion so that no one suspected anyone else. I.E. ingtar. they were not darkfriends.
13
red hand: 2006-04-17
i agree with zach. they did not murder the guards, ingtar did. they were affected by being near fain. they became more surly and meaner as they spent time with him. they did not murder the guards at the dog gate. they probably did nothing to help fain when the other darkfriends came to rescue him either. they would have done whatever for ingtar because he was their leader.
not guilty.
14
Anubis: 2006-05-08
RJ said Ingtar murdered the gurads.
15
Anubis: 2006-05-08
^^^
I would say that the Changu and Nidao were left not as a deterant to Rand, in all likelyhood Fain wanted Rand to follow, but rather as a deterant to Ingtar. Fain would know that Ingtar was a darkfriend, in all likelyhood Ingtar was the one who released Fain from the cells (as per his comments). Fain is a bastard, and torturing to death two innocents, who died with everyone beliving they were darkfriends, and who were Ingtars friends and charges was more probably a blow directed at Ingtar.
16
Heartstone Hunter: 2006-06-20
I don't think that they were dark friends, either. I think they were corrupted by the Fain. I am more interested in how/why Eggy and Matt were left alive by Fain, or at least why they weren't brought with him. Perhaps it can be explained by Matt being Taveren, but with all of his hatred, etc., then why leave them alive or why not bring them with him? I would think that they were much more valuable to him than the two dark friends you theorize about here, unless he needed to move quickly. Again, then why not kill them. I think that that could be the only REAL support for the two guards. Pain needed to move quickly, so he left the two and since the guards were dark friends able to walk on their own, he was able to bring them. Although, I guess they could have been corrupted enough to follow the Dagger. I still want to know how Pain was able to kill the Fade the way he did. As a super darkfriend, I am troubled by not knowing the extent of his powers.
17
keeper: 2006-07-02
It is presumed that Changu and Nidao were acting on their own orders(with influence from Fain/Mordeth or not) but has anyone considered that the change in the moods of the gaurds were due to Fain but that the letting in of the trollocs and other betrayals were perhaps due to some of the gaurds (Changu and Nidao included) being under the influence of compulsion. There have been a lot of discussions as to wether or not Verin is a Dark friend and we know that she was present in Fal Dara at the time and also uses a form of compulsion on people so perhaps she is the answer. This would suggest that Changu and Nidao were not darkfriends.
18
Davian93: 2006-07-05
I agree with you on this one Frenzy. Personally as stated by others above, I've always felt that they were taken to make it look like they were DF's and protect the real DF's who actually freed Fain. Ingtar's opinion, while supportive, doesnt really prove anything one way or the other.
Of course, to play devil's advocate, if they were truly DF's, they would not side with Fain as the Shadow wants the Horn to go into the Blight and not south towards Cairhien. They could have been tortured as a message to the rest of the humans' under Fain's control much like the Myrdraal that was tortured.
19
Cholly: 2006-08-28
This sounds pretty great to me. I always thought it sounded weird that Egwene thought they got meaner after time. And yes, Ingtar wouldn't show respect to fellow darkfriends. You can't find anything to dispute this one.
