ultipule souls in one body: Padan Fain
by Elder Haman: 2003-01-24 | Not yet rated
Previous Categories: Padan Fain
Since the great Rand/LLT one-soul, two-soul debate has finally ended, let's ask the question: How many souls are in the body of Padan Fain?
Here are the possiblities I see:
1) Two-souls, shared power: The soul of Mordeth entered into Fain's body and shares it with the soul of Padan Fain. They have joint control over Fain's body and work together.
2) Two-souls, dominate and subordinate: The soul of Mordeth entered into Fain's body and shares it with the soul of Padan Fain. Mordeth has become dominate and Fain is now just a voice in the back of his head.
3) Two-souls merge into one soul: The soul of Mordeth entered into Fain's body and slowly merged with the soul of Padan. Now they are one soul.
4)One-soul replacement: The soul of Mordeth entered into Fain's body and slowly expelled the soul of Padan Fain while absorbing some of Padan's attributes.
5) One-soul, never were two souls: Mordeth is not a soul, never had a soul, and never will have a soul. It is an evil alternate to the Dark One and as such is an influence that influences souls. Mordeth was the bodily manifestation of this evil, and Fain's body is just serving as a host for this evil. Padan Fain's soul is still there but completely under control of this evil force.
The evidence in the book seems to imply either 2 or 3 is correct. I'm leaning towards 3 as being RJ's concept, but I find it the least attractive philisophically. 5 and 1 are the most philisophicallly interesting. I hope it's 5, that would be fascinating.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-25
I would say that I lean towards number two. Mordeth is such a strange character when we first meet him. Apparently he can be seen by the boys in Shadar Logoth, he infects things, yet he uses Fain as a vessel to be able to leave SL. So it would seem that Mordeth's soul is inside of Fain, who has a soul, and that they were both evil, but that Fain is more Mordeth, with Fain only pushing himself forward at specific moments. But maybe there is some type of partnership. Although, I like the idea that it isn't a "soul", instead, it is an evil that is controlling his soul.
2
Elder Haman: 2003-01-25
6) No-soul: Same as #5, but Mordeth devoured/destroyed Padan Fain's soul, which is what allows the "new" Fain to step outside the pattern.
3
Captain Cauthon: 2003-01-25
I also think that it's most likely option 2, but a version of it where either personality can be in charge at a given time. You can see this from the GH when Fain was travelling with the Horn of Valere with his company of Trollocs and Darkfriends. Tracking them, the heroes were mystified as the trail changed direction back and forth, seemingly for no real reason, but because it depeneded on which of Fain's personalities were in charge as we saw from his POV later on. Fain's accent also shifts from his native Lugard to the arrogant lordly one employed by Mordeth.
4
Callandor: 2003-01-25
I also agree with it being the number 2 solution due to the fact that we have Mordeth gaining and finding new powers (or maybe ones he had when he was alive and turning Ahridol into SL) and then we have Fain who basically only gives info with his knowledge of the modern world (the land, Rand, cultures, people).
So I think its a lot like Slayer just that Fain has a WAY less part of the body/action/personality pie.
5
Anubis: 2003-01-26
in the EOTW, moiraine explains that mordeth tried to take over fain, and finding a soul that had been directly touched by the dark one, somthing new was created. Im thinking fain = old fain + darkone + mordeth
6
jaellon: 2003-01-28
In the chase from Fal Dara, the trail kept changing back and forth because of the power struggle between Fain and the fade that was with the party, not necessarily because of Fain's changing personalities. The fade was desperately trying to take the Horn up to the Blight, but it hadn't counted on Fain's ability to overcome it. Fain was trying to take it south, but every morning he would wake up with a sharp decrease in his powers. Late in tGH, we get a pov from Fain in which he thinks back to this chase. Every day he would get stronger, but always weak at first, until the day he was able to overcome the fade entirely and kill it by nailing it to a door.
Despite that, Fain definitely has multiple personalities, and I doubt it's your average schizophrenia. It appears to me that in the mornings, Fain (evil, but not that strong) would have greater control, and Mordeth (evil, and possessing useful abilities) would gradually take control as the day progressed. As time went by Mordeth has gained almost complete control. I say almost, because the pair still has Fain's consuming need to kill Rand.
I think Mordeth is indeed a soul, but one that is so corrupted by the taint of Shadar Logoth that you would barely recognize it as one. My opinion is that we're looking at #2.
7
Anubis: 2003-03-03
you are forgetting that fains soul was directly touched by the dark one. this is important. it makes it so that fain is not completely mordeth and also adds some darkone ish ness into the mix. Everyone is forgetting about the whole dark one connection, but it is absolutly vital. It may explain fains power over shadow spawn and his out of the pattern ness.
8
Shadowkiller: 2003-03-27
It is #3. The DO touched Fain directly and Mordeth tried to take over but couldn't. Machin Shin tried to steal his soul also but could only take some or the essence of it. That is why Machin Shin is at the waygate whenever Rand tries to enter the ways.
9
Anubis: 2003-04-12
fain is three souls merged.
Fain = free will
DO = out of pattern + dark powers
Mordeth = Human evil and corruption powers.
fain clearly has all three of these things. he has clearly exhibited his power to controll creaturs of the dark, the power to corroupt people and free will, each specific to its own portion. another power of the dark ones that fain has is the nifty power to see darkfriends. i think personally that fain is going to be a wild card in the last battle and is going to have a very important role.
10
dionysus: 2003-04-23
Anubis: The dark one put his touch upon Fain's soul, but it's still Fain's soul, so the most that there could be is Fain and Mordeth.
Here's what I find interesting about this theory. Everywhere that we've seen the dark one's taint touch mordeth's taint, there is a weird type of destruction – "two evils, each different, fighting eachother" is how I think it was described.
We've seen this two places other than Fain – Rand's never-healing wound and the dagger wound, and Rand's attempt to destroy the taint. Fain is another example of the two taints overlapping. However, instead of the taints destroying eachother or even one in Fain's case, they mingled together to make a worse evil. With this train of thought, I'll take #3... it started out as a #1/#2 situation, but slowly the two souls merged into an evil even greater.
Where I think it would be interesting to apply this theory is Rand cleary the taint. What if instead of destroying it and Shadar Logoth, he merged the two evils into a new taint (hence all the problems with weevils and ghosts) Do we need to deal with an Uber-Dark one now?
And I feel dumb not remembering... Did we see Fain after/during Rand destroyed SL?
11
Anubis: 2003-04-24
i disagree. a soul touched and "distilled" by the dark one would be much different. also recall that fain had little to no free will. his soul was well and truly corroupted by the dark one, like it was corroupted by mordeth.
12
Kinslayer: 2004-05-31
I'd like to believe #5 - Mordeth is not a soul. I recently re-read tFoH and noticed the part where Fain took back the dagger. He thought about killing Rand and then he mentioned about fighting his 'ancient enemy'. I dont have the exact quote, but I found this particular part interesting. We learned from Moiraine that Shadar Logoth fought the Dark One as much as the Light. Could there be a third entity other than the Creator and the Dark One???
Anyway, this leads me to believe the evil that manifested Mordeth during the Trolloc Wars is now manifestering Padan Fain. The bodies of Fain and Mordeth acts as a vehicle for this evil to travel...
13
: 2004-06-02
the ancient enemy is most likely the shadow. that is what mordeth and fain both have reason to hate and what mordeth was created to fight.
14
matoyak: 2004-08-10
The two soul debate ended? *faints* i did not know that! (am NOT being sarcastic here just being truthfull) when? pls tell me! i only read the theory and not the replies so sorry if i did the same reply as someone else (sorry 'bout grammer am only 15) I always thought that Rand/LLT was your #2 and is slowly becoming #3 except that rand being dominate. this is explained when LTT almost wreked havok when he almost grabbed saidin. this means that he is actually there not just a voice created by a delusionall Rand. #2 is shown (if in a different way with slayer[luc/isam]) you know the become luc become slayer deal? sorry no quotes quote masters pls help! whoops i just got off topic didn't i? but i've made my point with Rand/LTT i hope. :~)
15
Callandor: 2004-08-10
**The two soul debate ended? *faints* i did not know that! (am NOT being sarcastic here just being truthfull) when? pls tell me!**
Yes, the two-soul debate finally died it's rightful death.
**Audience: The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?
Robert Jordan: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I came hobbled together.**
**this means that he is actually there not just a voice created by a delusionall Rand.**
Sorry, he is almost assuredly a voice/personality/presence created by Rand (also most likely due to taint effects).
16
matoyak: 2004-08-12
o.k. callandor....i bow to your quoting powers.but how did he almost grab the op?(really am curious here) you've convinced me.*bows*
