1
Tamyrlin: 2003-05-10
Don't we have the Point of View of Shaidar in which we get thoughts of his that make him sound independent of the Dark One? Why wouldn't the DO just take the shape of a human? We don't have any precedence of such a thing occurring even though the DO was just as "free" when Lanfear created the Bore (in fact, he was more free at that time since some of the seals are still in place.) I think it is more likely that the DO specifically bred this myrrdraal and has bestowed powers on him...but I am not convinced that he is the DO.
2
Weird Harold: 2003-05-10
Shaidar Haran is exactly what he says he is -- The Hand of The Dark One.
Essentially, he's a ROV for the Dark One, like an unmanned deep sea remote or an armed reconaisance drone.
3
Callandor: 2003-05-10
All he is is a pumped up Fade, by the DO but NOT the DO, and he gives his commands that the DO thinks might not go over so well if not inforced.
And Alvarin was scared crapless. Of course she would think he was the DO, but that doesnt make him the DO because she says so.
4
melchizedek137: 2003-05-10
Yes, of course he is.
Actually, when I reread the series prior to reading CoT, I figured out who Shadar Haran was (the physical manifestation of the Dark One in the world, able to break free in a limited form by using the technology of the Myrdraal). There is a passage in one of the books where we get his perspective and he wants to be free from Shayol Ghul... but that is *not* the same as wanting to be free of the Dark One (which is what I, like Tamyrlin, first believed it was). In fact, it makes perfect sense that he would want to be free of Shayl Ghul as the Dark One DOES want to be free of Shayul Ghul. It limits him severely.
Also, it seems clear why Shaidar Haran is not advertising himself... why should he when he can have Morridin do all his administration for him? Morridin, as Nae'blis) is the CEO of Great Lord of the Dark Enterprises. Shadar Haran (as the vehicle of the Dark One's personality) is the Chairman of the Board (and sole stockholder). But, as he is so closely bound to Shayl Ghul, he has given most of the responsibility to Morridin, only intervening personally when there is something he especially wants to see is done his way. An interesting study would be WHEN he appears instead of sending Morridin... in order to see what the DO considers the MOST vital events to control his own way.
5
Callandor: 2003-05-11
If anything SG makes the DO stronger. Yes he is limited to just there, but look at his direct control over it. All the Trollocs, Fades, and Grey Men come from there (yes yes birthing by Trollocs and such for Fades but the primarily come from there). The DO wants to be free of SG yes, but SH POV seems to lean more toward he doesnt want to be an errand boy for the DO at all. And since RJ has said that if the Creator touched the pattern in any way that he would most likely destroy it. So your telling me that the DO, who by all accounts is a big a powerhouse as the Creator (maybe a little liess since he was imprisoned but whatever), has put himself into a body, put himself basically into the pattern, since book 7 and the pattern hasnt been extremely effected by this? No way.
Hes just a super-Fade. He speaks for what the DO wants when the Forsaken break a rule or when they all cant go to SG. Thats it.
6
Anubis: 2003-05-11
shaidar seems to be the muscle. he does the spying, and the torture, and moridin gives the orders. but between them, i think they hav an understanding. they each do what they do best. moridin is plan man, and shadar is hidden muscle,
7
rubbernilly: 2003-05-15
Put this together with the "Feeding on the OP" theory and you might begin to see why the One Power is failing, and why SH is very likely the DO:
1) The One Power does not exist around SH; it is not a shield, channelers comment - to themselves - that it just isn't there. As SH gets stronger, which is to say for purposes of this theory that the DO is getting stronger, he is effecting things on a much wider scale. If SH prohibits the OP around his immediate vicinity, the comparison is an easy one to make as to what is happening to the OP elsewhere - Keepings not... keeping, wards failing, etc.
2) The One Power, saidar and saidin, is what drive the Wheel of Time. Now, if the DO's goal was to kill time itself, to stop the Wheel, then it also stand to reason that he would have a negative impact on wards and keepings, etc. Especially, if he were SH, that it would be very pronounced where SH was (the black hole of OP).
3) If the logic holds that the pattern is the prison of the DO, then he would be antithetical to the pattern. Where the pattern is driven by the OP, wherever the DO could lay his hand (or SH's hand), there would be none.
I know this is a little off the mark for this theory, but I am trying to link the "SH = DO" theory and the "Feeding on OP" theory. They may well be related... the stronger SH (as the DO gets), the more his influence grows over the OP.
8
A Fire Inside: 2003-05-15
I don't think Shaidar Haran is the DO. I think Shaidar Haran is the parallel/antithesis to Rand. SH is the "Hand of the DO", just like Rand could be considered the "Hand of the Creator". I think we'll see more and more of Shaidar Haran getting more and more powerful, and when the final battle takes place, we'll see Rand battle a very powerful SH before he is able to close the prison like it was before the Bore was drilled. Or not, and I'm WAY off......
9
Callandor: 2003-05-16
I think Ishamael is more like Rands opposite. But I agree with you Fire, SH isnt the DO made flesh.
10
Him-who-may: 2003-05-18
An intersting scene will be one which features both Moridin and Shaidar Haran (which to my knowledge there has not been yet). Seing how the chosen of the Dark One and the voice of the Dark One interact should be interesting as it is clear that Shaidar Haran has supremacy over the other chosen and also plans to stay around and enter the main world permenatly by breaking free of the pit of doom. However Moridin as the Nae'blis (sp) is the first servent of the Dark One and chosen to rule the world for him.
Will they co-opperate as they have done so far or shall there be a conflict of interest?
Both have being seen to show equal supremacy over the other chosen so you has the ultimate authority of these two?
My guess would be Moridin as he is so far been portrayed as the opposite of Lews Therin Telamon in an earlier age and now the oppoosite of Rand.
11
Rand-althor: 2003-05-22
I believe that SH is a avatar for the DO. He is just a super-bred fade given powers by the DO, and that is his connection to it. If he stays to long away from SG, then he connection with the DO begins to fail, and he slowly losses all his super-fade powers. So me means to rememdy his connection by breaking the DO free, and therefore having his powers no matter where he is, although I am of the belief that this will backfire, seeing as when the DO is free, he will have no need for SH
12
Rhodric: 2003-06-30
Him-Who-May wonders how Moridin and Shaidar Haran interact.
i reckon its all in their names:
Moridin = Ishamael = Ba'alzamon
and Ba'alzamon is the HEART of the dark.
Shaidar Haran is the HAND of the dark.
The DO is the Brain of the dark.
SH is an avatar, of sorts, so he is 100% loyal to the DO and hence SH carries out the DO's will. being the hand, SH is used grab at things (people/forsaken) and push/pull things in the right direction. he's doing what needs to be done because the brain can't do it.
somethings heart can suggest someone close to that something. so Moridin is closest to, most loved by (if the term love applies to the supreme evil being in the universe) the DO. the heart pumps blood, working on orders from the brain but independent to it. the heart supplies blood to all parts of the body including the hand. Moridin/Ba'alzamon is working under the DO but i think above SH: the heart feeds the hand.
i think the metaphor speaks for itself. when i try to write it like this i get lost in the words, losing the meaning.
the Heart pumps blood
13
Anubis: 2003-07-19
moridin is the only mortal man that we know of to fully comprehend the plan of the dark one. heart of the dark. he gets it, the dark one likes him. he is possibly rands opposite.
haran is the... will of the dark. he is a very physical and visible way in which the dark one can touch the world and make his prescence known. regardless of weather or not he is the dark one made flesh, there is definatly a link there, and like ishmael he is working for the dark one and noone else. this also explains why there is no contention between them.
14
Him-who-may: 2003-07-20
I think that the change from Ishamael to Moridin should be looked at more closely.
Ishamael's death occured before RJ started writing from the view point of the chosen but we have insight into Moridins way of thinking. We know that he is 100% loyal to the Dark One.
But what about Ishamael? Evidence from Lanfear's musings infront of others lead us to believe that she at least thought he had his own plans bubbling away. Of course all of the chosen are highly suspicious of each other so it is understandable that she would believe this.
But what do we know of Ishamael's activities (this does not include anything involving Moridin, I am treating them as seperate for now)? He caused the Trolloc wars, he caused Hawkwing to reject the Aes Sedai and led to the war between them. He did alot of things that would show him favourably in the eyes of the Dark One but he did create the name Ba'alzamon for himself which he let people believe was another name of the Dark One. Bad score. He also failed in defeating the reletivly untrained Rand, but Rand had Callandor, hugely tipping the favour in his balance. He also failed at capturing them before this point.
Ishamael was the greatest of the servants of the Dark One but he also had the greatest failures.
If Ishamael was punished what can we see of that in Moridin?
Both are mad. Moridin uses the true power only. Did Ishamael do this? We do not know. At the time of Ishamael's death no true power had been discussed. Is it possible that Ishamael lost his connection to saidin and was left only with the true power. Surely that would tie him tighter to the Great Lord, a fitting punishment.
And how does this involve Shaidar Haran? He is new. Nothing that any of the chosen have experianced before. But Moridin is not thrown off at all when discussing Shaidar Haran to Moheigden. Maybe he has met him before.
Maybe other punishments were implemented by Shaidar Haran which would show their relationship and their standing compared to each other.
Again I must say as I said before. We must wait to see a scene with these two together, to see how they interact before we can see how they compare
15
silverwolf: 2003-08-13
First of all, Shaidar Haran's power blocking ability is a controlled, conscious effect, not-NOT-merely a byproduct of his presence. It only happens when he wants it to happen and it only affects whom he wants. He doesn't just suck all the OP out of an area; Mesaana was unmasked as a conscious part of her punishment, revealing her in her true form, grovelling and weeping, to someone she considered her inferior. If you aren't convinced, read my earlier posts!!!
Secondly, Shadar Haran is not the Dark One. He is the Dark One's hand, nothing else. He is controlled by the DO and influences events according to the DO's instructions, but he is NOT the DO himself. Yes, the DO can speak through him (as we see in CoT), but even there the DO's voice asks "Do you think Hand of the Shadow is just a name? ... My hand reaches far, Mesaana." [CoT, "A Mark", pg 517]
The DO refers to "his hand" in the third person, not the first, leading me to believe that his voice was transferred in a way similar to what Sammael did with his messenger to Rand. Yes, Alviarin thought he was the DO, but she was also so killed she almost fell to her death down a flight of stairs right outside her own apartments! I think she was a little incoherent [comment thick with sarcasm].
In conclusion: Shaidar Haran is not feeding off the OP, nor is he the Dark One. He is just a myrdraal on steroids.
16
silverwolf: 2003-08-13
Also, I think that Moridin has more authority than Shaidar Haran since SH brought Moghedien to Moridin instead of having Moridin get her himself (or at least come with SH to get her out of the vacuole).
17
Rhodric: 2003-08-18
silverwolf i think you just proved that Moridin stands above SH.
i've decided that SH is a (willing) puppet of the DO. the DO controls his actions, and (for instance) can use SH's body to say the words He wants it to say.
18
rubbernilly: 2003-08-18
silverwolf said:
Yes, the DO can speak through him (as we see in CoT), but even there the DO's voice asks "Do you think Hand of the Shadow is just a name? ... My hand reaches far, Mesaana." [CoT, "A Mark", pg 517]
The DO refers to "his hand" in the third person, not the first, leading me to believe that his voice was transferred in a way similar to what Sammael did with his messenger to Rand.
But I don't see the "third person" perspective you are talking about.
If I say:
"Do you think Rubbernilly is just a name? My Nilly reaches far."
...that I am not speaking of myself? My reference to Rubbernilly (or, "Hand of the Dark") would be a reference to the name I was using, and the followup reference to "my Nilly" is nothing out of the ordinary.
re-read that section from SH and I think you'll see what I mean.
19
Genghis: 2004-07-31
if Shaidar haran were just a superfade he would not be bound to the pit of doom.
20
Dragon Tamer: 2007-12-12
Shaidar Haran couldn't be the DO made flesh. I am pretty sure at some point it is mentioned that it would take considerable time and energy by the DO to make a new one. I think Shaidar Haran is just the whip the DO uses to make sure his followers toe the line.
