1
Tamyrlin: 2003-07-19
Is there any reason, something RJ has said or the books say, to suggest that Myrrdraal can't be born with the ability to channel? We have seen the DO give people the ability to channel TP, people that already had the ability to channel. Can the DO give the ability to use the TP, to someone who cannot channel in the first place? Myrrdraal have souls right? Just trying to remember.
2
Mairashda: 2003-07-19
use of the true power cannot be detected. not even by other users.
3
Vaughn882: 2003-07-19
I agree with most of what you said, except i think the DO can sometimes temporarily control Shaidy. I only think this because one of the forsaken thought that it sounded like the DO talking.
It never does say that a myrdraal cant channel. Or trollocs:) What would be even funnier- an ogier channeling :) lol
4
Anubis: 2003-07-19
i remember that myrdraal dont dream, and dreaming is a commonly soul associated thing... i wonder. regardless, shadar haran is more then just a suped up fade. i wouldnt call him the dark one made flesh tho.
5
Callandor: 2003-07-19
Why? Give one reason that is credible that the DO has put himself into a body. He talks like the DO? Quotes. He can take quick control of the Forsaken and isnt punished for it? Hes high standing. He knows the Forsaken really well? Duh, the DO can talk to him quite easily.
Frankly, the DO being put into the Pattern (yes Trollocs and Myrddraal do have souls, RJ has said in interviews that they do, but they do not dream), would be like the Creator putting himself into the Pattern. In short, he would destroy it.
Also, the DO was more free in the AoL, when the Myrddraal and Trollocs were first coming, so why not put himself in a body then? And if you say that the DO did but was killed, why dont the Forsaken say that Shaidar Haran isnt like the whatever the DO put himself into in the AoL (since SH is so high standing if the DO did the same in the AoL, he would be standing just as high)? And lastly, what has given the DO, now of all times when his power is still reduced on the world, to put himself into a body?
He cant. He alters a fade and takes him under his wing to counter any adverse effects or plans the Forsaken or and high ranking Darkfriend might come up with. No other explaination.
6
Jiana: 2003-07-19
Okay, so no saa... but what about madness? Sure, Fades are already mad, but that's only in the eyes of the people on the side of the Light. To the Dark people, the Fades are only doing what they were born to do. Anyway, my point is this. It has been said that Myrddraal don't smile, and they don't laugh, yet Shaidar Haran does both. Possible signs of madness? Maybe he's drunk on power (and the TP) just like Moridin/Ishy.
7
juitzhead: 2003-07-20
Sorry to disappoint you Vaughn. Here's a quote from an online interview with RJ. Dec 9, 2002:
Question: Why can't Ogier channel the One Power?
Why can't fish sing? Why can't sparrows do the tango? Why can't I figure my own income tax? I'd really like to know the answer to that last one!
---------------
“Shaidar Haran turned its attention back to the woman twitching in its fist. Her face was beginning to go purple, and her feet kicked feebly. "You will adapt. The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body. You are adapting already. Soon it will be as if you had never had any other. Or you may refuse. Then another will take your place, and you will be given to ... my brothers, blocked as you are." Those thin lips twitched again. "They miss their sport in the Borderlands." – LOC Prologue
-----
"She cannot speak," Osan'gar said. "You're killing her! Don't you know who we are? Put her down, Halfman! Obey me!" The thing had to obey one of the Chosen.
But the Myrddraal impassively studied Aran'gar's darkening face for a long moment more before letting her feet touch the carpet and loosening its grip. "I obey the Great Lord. No other." She hung on, wavering, coughing and gulping air. Had it taken its hand away, she would have fallen. "Will you submit to the will of the Great Lord?" Not a demand, just a perfunctory question in that rasping voice. – LOC Prologue
Things to note from these quotes. SH refers to other Myrddraal as his “brothers”. The DO would not do this. He also states the he obeys the GL. I don't think the DO is going to start referring to himself in the third person.
SH has the ability to completely cut off a channeler from the source, not just shield the person. Its similar to a stedding effect.
8
silverwolf: 2003-07-25
I think that Shaidar Haran's ability to cut someone off from the source is simply a TP shield; the reason they can't sense the source is that the shield is completely foreign to them and blocks their ability completely.
Shaidar Haran does not simply generate a "OP-less field" in which no one can sense or channel the OP and weaves of the OP dissolve, as has been suggested in other theories. Anyone who believes he does should reread ACoS "Mindtrap" just before Moggy is introduced to Moridin. She considers embracing the source just to make an end of it, mentions feeling saidar even though Shaidar Haran is standing right in front of her.
I don't believe that SH is the DO made flesh, but I think the DO has a pretty direct control over him and uses him as his eyes and ears in addition to his hand. Also, no one has managed to explain the part of CoT when Alviarin hears the DO's voice in the WT (I think that the DO was speaking through SH in some way, but I don't know how).
9
Callandor: 2003-07-25
Wrong. Moggy tries to embrace saidar during the mindtrapping and:
"She reached to embrace saidar, and her eyes bulged. There was nothing there. Nothing! It was if she had been severed."
The same effect of SH is around Moggy during her mindtrapping.
10
Anubis: 2003-07-26
note the hesitation before shadar haran calls the myrdraal his brothers.
11
silverwolf: 2003-07-26
Wrong time Callandor. Look at the chapter where Moggy was about to meet Moridin. She specifically mentions feeling the source and considers embracing it, then rejects the idea because Shaidar Haran--and her mindtrap--are so nearby, so channeling would be extremely painful. Read the chapter.
12
silverwolf: 2003-07-26
Another example was in ACoS when Shaidar Haran secretly watches Sammael and Graendal send the Shaido all over the world. No one there has any trouble channeling, despite the fact that SH is in the near vicinity. THat indicates it is a conscious effort on SH's part to block a channeler from the source, not merely an automatic effect of his presence.
13
Anubis: 2003-07-27
i want to know if shaidar haran can do the shieldy thing to non darkfriends. bear in mind, it does not behave like any shield we have ever seen. the shielded is no loger able to even sense the one power or even that they CAN channel.
14
Mairashda: 2003-07-27
the watcher isn't Shaidar Haran; he thinks about Sammael as if he knew him back in the 2nd age, thinks about using the true power, about being named Nae'blis... not things that sound very much like SH. It is Moridin, the Heart's Horse.
15
Mairashda: 2003-07-27
...oh, the other scene at the END of CoS. mea culpa. while I agree that cutting channelers off the source is an ability SH may control at will, it might be argued that it simply wasn't close enough to Sammael to affect him...oh, additionally it was invisible, hiding in the shadows, so that may be another limiting factor...
16
juitzhead: 2003-07-27
SH is just a myrddraal. he even he thinks of himself as a myrddraal. He is possibily using the TP (i cannot see why a myr cannot would not be able to channel). Since we havent seen a TP shield before, we do not know of how it would act, but cutting of someone's ability to sense the source is a possibility.
Remember, SH did burn that spear in ACOS with some sort of power. He also did the black flame thing with Mesaana in COT. So it is likely that he is using the TP.
The only other reference's i could find with 'black flames' is when Rand battles Be'lal and Be'lal has a sword of black flames and when Rand is in Rhuidean and he sees the Sharom explode.
the Watcher was moridin not SH.
17
Callandor: 2003-07-27
Good catch silverwolf. While it may be an error, I don't really think it is but it might, it does seem to be a tool that SH can do by himself and turn it on and off.
18
Rhuark: 2003-07-28
I'm not convinced that some Myddraal have the ability to channel. I think that we would have encountered more than just Shaidar Haran channeling if that was the case.
I remember many instances of Rand/Moiraine worrying about Myddraal sensing them channeling but never a Myddraal (other than SH) busting out with a Fireball or something.
I think Shaidar Haran has just been given the ability by the Dark One. Which leads to another question. If the Dark One is really serious about kicking the Lights butt why doesnt he just creates thousands of faithful True Power weilding Myddraal for the last battle instead of relying on power hungry Dreadlords and Forsaken!
19
juitzhead: 2003-07-28
Rhuark:
“I'm not convinced that some Myddraal have the ability to channel. I think that we would have encountered more than just Shaidar Haran channeling if that was the case.“
I don't meant that all have the ability, or as you have put it, the DO can just make a super army of channelling Myr.
However, the DO has made/enhanced SH and has possibly granted him the ability to touch the TP. Since Myr are the HUMAN throwback of Trollocs, and as humans can channel, why couldn't SH be a special case of a Myr with the spark?
Rhuark:
”I remember many instances of Rand/Moiraine worrying about Myddraal sensing them channeling but never a Myddraal (other than SH) busting out with a Fireball or something. “
I don't recall any instances of Rand worrying about a Myrddraal sensing him. Can you please provide the quotes?
20
Rhuark: 2003-07-28
Sorry I havent got the books with me at the moment but I'm sure I remember in the earlier books either Moiraine or Rand (probably Moiraine) saying that channeling now would be like a beacon to the Myrddraal. Its either when Moiraine and the party are fleeing Emonds Field or when Rand is in Cairhein in TGH and trollocs etc are roaming the streets.
I may be wrong though. I'll try and find some quotes when I get home on the weekend.
Another idea.
Maybe SH has way more human stock in him than Trolloc. That I suppose could make him more human than other Mydraal for eg. can channel, has a sense of humour. I'm not taking a stand on that its just an idea.
21
Callandor: 2003-07-28
Moiraine worrying is a given, but Rand also worries about the Myrddraal in TFOH, when he wards the Aiel camp going through the Jangai Pass to Cairhien ;-).
22
juitzhead: 2003-07-28
Just thought i post the quote:
QUOTE:
"The Aiel themselves would have to keep watch for human enemies. Wardings were complex weaves, if tenuous, and trying to make them do more than one thing could render them useless, in practicality. He could have made this one to kill Shadowspawn instead of merely giving warning, but that would have been like a beacon to any male Forsaken who might be searching, and to Myrddraal, too. No need to bring his enemies down on him when they might not know where he was. This, even one of the Forsaken would not know untft he was close, and a Myrddraal not until it was too late. - tFoH"
23
Rhuark: 2003-07-29
Cheers Callandor you saved me some work. I knew I wasn't imagining it.
24
Dorindha: 2003-07-29
I think that all Myrdraal can sense the source being used, and I think it says somewhere that it makes them itch. They can also feel if it has been used in a place. This is not an indication that they can channel, it's just part of their natural powers.
25
Jack o Shadows: 2003-10-20
Think as the OP as being Addictive and the TP as being Subtractive. As the channeler attempts to employ the addictive force the shredder (TP user?) simply uses the subtractive to drain it away. Depending ont he strengh of the shredder it's possible that they could drain as fast as the channler piles it on. (Basing the sbrtactive thing on the way TP users (shredders?) travel, by ripping the patter or whatever. and Addictive on the way that channelers Add to the patter. So give and take, addictive and subtractive) So - Shaidy = DO hand.- DO employs hand - Hand is Filled with TP (which is DO) and uses it to negate any channeling in the area. If youn think it sounds plausable, go me. If not, no big deal. 'sjust a theory.
26
Anubis: 2003-10-21
you all are familiar with the mark of the beast?
fain says he can pick darkfriends out of a crowd, as if they had somthing dirty on their forehead or somthing like that... i forget exactly. Also shaidar haran "marks" alvarian. i think that the lack of power comes from being sworn to the DO. if you have sworn the oaths, a creature with power similar to the dark one can cut you off from the true source.
27
mako0424: 2003-12-23
I disagree, i think it makes perfect sense, kind of like the Eye of Sauron representing Sauron. Has alot of power, something corporal for the reader to latch onto, but also provides that the ultimate evil doesn't fully escape prison.
Shadar Haran is who Rand will have to beat.
28
Murrin: 2003-12-23
I think that the Great Lord can exert his power through the person of Shaidar Haran, allowing his occaisional light shows etc. The Great Lord doesn't *inhabit* SH, but can speak through him - most of the time, SH speaks as a normal fade, and is only a little taller than one. When he is chastising, however, he has been seen to grow in size, and to begin speaking in an entirely different voice - Shai'tan exerting more power through SH, which he doesn't often do due to his link with Shayol Ghul which prevents long trips out and large use of power....
29
Callandor: 2003-12-23
**Shadar Haran is who Rand will have to beat.**
Who did Rand fight in The Eye of the World? Ishamael. Who did LTT face in the Prolouge? Ishamael. Who did Rand fight in The Great Hunt? Ishamael!
Ishamael is the nemesis for Rand. SH is a new being and matches up to be killed or destroyed by Fain.
30
Oatman: 2004-01-25
With the balance that RJ has put into the series it seems to me that the TP is the dark ones power, and if a character aligned with the light refered to it, which i dont believe they have yet, they would call it the dark ones power of somthing similar. The reason the OP is the OP is because it was the only power known of at the time of making, in my opinion, so it stands to reason that this is the power of the creator, and that only those he has chosen can weild it just as only those chosen by the DO can wield TP. Before you rip this to shreds with examples of the forsaken, black ajah, remember that the soul of the person is not inherintly evil, and with the extreme lazyness of the creator in abandoning his creation, he may have chosen certain souls to have the ability to channel, and trusted them to do the right thing with his gift, which falls in with the dragon being a champion for evil in previous lives etc.
With the dark one being the active super power in the series it makes sense that he could bestow the ability to channel TP on anyone and anything he chose, but he would have to be sure that he did not give it someone who could turn and use it against him, as maybe Asmodean would have done had he been able.
So suppose a mutant myrdraal appears, SH, a creature who mindlessly works the dark ones cause with little care who his well being and little if any ambition. Who better to serve the dark one faithfully? So, as he did with fain, the DO pulls him aside, and alters him as he did with fain, and gives him the ability to channel TP perhaps among other things.
