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ogue Agent?
by Ozymandias: 2005-02-17 | 2.78 out of 10 (9 votes)
Previous Categories: Shaidar Haran - The Hand of the DO
I believe that Shaidar Haran is more like a genetic mutation of Myrdraal, one capable of touching a mixture of the True Power and One Power. I dont have quotes, but it is said several times that Ishamael creates balls of blackness which seem to suck the light, even that of Callandor. We also know that for the most part, the One Poer gives off light (obviously a shallow attempt on the part of RJ to illuminate the difference between the Light and the Shadow). Shaidar Haran, however, has a power which lets him create a ball of energy which is as black as the created by the TP, but gives off a pale light (like the OP), seen when he confronts Graendal, Cyndane, and Moghedien. I believe that this power is the essence of the Taint, a small skimming from an almost invisible line where the OP and TP mingle. This leads me to believe that Shaidar Haran is something of a rogue agent; working for the Dark One, but at the same time making a play for his own power, much like Moridin seems to be doing. In particular, this rebellion comes in the form of a desire to escape the bonds of the Dark One which keep him from staying too long away from Shayol Ghul. We know without doubt that Shaidar Haran is an agent, a highly favored agent, of the Dark One. But the DO isnt one to give up strings he's tied to his creatures. So maybe, just maybe, it is possible that we see a minor rebellion on the part of Shaidar Haran which will let him break the bonds to Shayol Ghul.
Incidentally, same thing goes for the gholam. He obviously wants to be free of having to do whatever he is commanded to, and he may attempt rebellion of a minor sort in order to obtain this.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-24
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
One of the arguements for Shaidar Haran's role is that he is the Dark One's Avatar. Another is that the character is evolving: he starts out low on the totem pole, and as time progresses the Dark One is able to use him to directly impact the Pattern.
Your theory is based on the premise that the Taint is the True Power. Since the Taint is gone, and Shaidar Haran still does his 'tricks' after that fact, this is a pretty big hole in your theory.
As for being a rogue agent? i would've been inclined to agree with you, if not for the encounter between Shaidar Haran and Mesaana.
bigjellybeans: 2005-02-24
*One is that Shaidar Haran cannot travel far from Shayol Ghul for extended periods of time (a weakness the DO wouldnt have)*
We cannot know this for sure because the DO has never left Shayol Ghul other than that I do agree with the theory.
Ozymandias: 2005-02-24
Just because the Taint is gone from the One Power does not mean it is gone in general. We know of one thing that can destroy matter; balefire. Balefire was not used on the Taint, therefore the Taint still exists.... somewhere. So Shaidar Haran still does have access to the True/One Power mixture. I like to call it the Trune Power
Khaos: 2005-02-25
I have always felt that the best explanation for Shaidar Haran is that he is the result of the DO using the True Power to bond a Myrdraal. Just as warders gain some benefits from the bond so might Shaidar Haran but in a different way.
Mad Tinker: 2005-02-28
The DO bonded Shaidar Haran? Unlikely. He's a primal force of creation, second only to the Creator... he's not going to bond himself to any lowly fade. Somebody else called him the DO's Spoke-Myrdraal. Seems the best explanation.
Aiel Finn: 2005-02-28
What if it's not the DO, but Ishy/Mordrin that bonded Shadar Haran? It sounds like the sort of thing that Ishy would try, and he's the one who has been around to find out about warder bonds. It would explain both SH special ablilties, and his being Mordrin's lackey.
Ozymandias: 2005-02-28
Actually, Mad Tinker, we all sort of agree he is the "Spokes-Myrdraal" for the DO. Were trying to find out a.) why he has more power than other myrdraal, and even the Forsaken, and b.) where the power comes from
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-02-28
Perhaps SH was created by both Moridin and the DO at Shayol Ghul.
Shadar Haran has spoken for the DO, yet he and Moridin seem to be on equal terms.
As for Shadar Haran not being able to leave SG for long periods of time, this is likely because, being created at SG, Shadar Haran is in some way 'bound' to the DO through the bore.
terez: 2005-03-01
It seems to me that the primary logical reason for the DO to create SH - to give a Myrdraal that kind of authority - would be a lack of human tendency toward self-promotion, and a sort of instinctive servitude. Perhaps he is a safeguard against Moridin's hunger for power. He does seem to play fetch for Moridin, but in reality nothing he has done seems to suggest that he is bound to obey Moridin. Moridin serves his purpose, SH serves his, and for now they are more or less equals with different but intertwined agendas. Until someone steps out of line?
Callandor: 2005-03-01
** Just because the Taint is gone from the One Power does not mean it is gone in general. We know of one thing that can destroy matter; balefire. Balefire was not used on the Taint, therefore the Taint still exists.... somewhere.**
What are you talking about? The Taint and the Shadar Logoth evil annailated each other like matter and anti-matter coming together. The taint is gone; it is no more.
**Were trying to find out a.) why he has more power than other myrdraal, and even the Forsaken, and b.) where the power comes from**
A. He's a shocker. He's the one that handles the punishment element of all Forsaken dealings so that they can work together, because they have a leader.
B. The Dark One enhanced him. Nothing more.
Ozymandias: 2005-03-01
obviously the DO enhanced him. I mean, a blind man who cant read braille knows that. The question is how? Or with what, rather. because in some ways he did not enhyance him (the being bound to SG). And nothing can completely erase the Taint except balefire. So while the Tain may have been "killed off" it did not disappear. Where would it have gone? Plus, we know that Fain still lives, and the evil of Aridhol lives in him. Therefore the evil of Shadar Logoth didnt get "killed off". In a similar sense, the Taint must have been like returned to the DO or something, because we know nothing short of balefire can absolutely destroy something. Intereseting question, can balefire destroy the DO? And I mean a really thin thread, one that would burn out events of the past few minutes, like Rand does with the Trollocs in Caemlyn during tFoH. Is it even possible, since the DO isnt even in the pattern?
Callandor: 2005-03-02
**obviously the DO enhanced him. I mean, a blind man who cant read braille knows that.**
You're going to use sarcasm directed at me, because you asked a stupid question? ;)
The Dark One altered him to give him the abilities he has now. What else is there?
**And nothing can completely erase the Taint except balefire.**
But we are not talking about erasing it. It was destroyed/annihilated by the Shadar Logoth evil. This is the reason for the big black dome and subsequent implosion of it.
**So while the Tain may have been "killed off" it did not disappear. Where would it have gone?**
The taint is gone. It is not existing on a seperate metaphysical plane or anything. It's gone.
**Plus, we know that Fain still lives, and the evil of Aridhol lives in him. Therefore the evil of Shadar Logoth didnt get "killed off".**
The Shadar Logoth evil is the city. Of course Fain is still alive. The city, along with the taint, is gone.
**Intereseting question, can balefire destroy the DO?**
The Dark One doesn't have a thread, and is not apart of the Pattern. There is nothing to kill, nothing to attack by people of the Pattern. Him and the Creator are immortal.
Mad Tinker: 2005-03-02
Ozymandias, it seems you're hung up on "where did the Taint go". The Taint was just the response of the DO to having the seal placed on the Bore by LTT & the Hundred Companions - all the DO could do to retaliate was place a layer of corruption on the surface of the male portion of the One Power.
Like Callandor said, Rand used the different evils of Shadar Logoth and the Taint to cancel each other out. The Taint is gone.
As for Shaidar Haran, he appears to be a fade that was granted access to the True Power by the DO. I don't think we've seen SH ever use the One Power... I'm sure you could shield somebody from the One Power using the True Power. As for his other non-fade qualities, we'll probably never know.
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-03-03
Just as a point of interest in relation to the taint being 'destroyed' - if we can draw a comparison to matter - matter can't be destroyed in this world, it simply changes form. Same is very likely for the taint
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-04
"matter can't be destroyed in this world"
Correction: anti-matter can destroy matter by direct collision, converting both the matter and anti-matter to energy. Kind of like both the taint and Shadar Logoth being destroyed, with the subsequent whirlwind.
Aiel Finn: 2005-03-04
Since when is the taint matter? Does it have mass? Volume? The current best theory is that the taint is like a skin of TP over Sadin. That means that it is just a force, just like the OP. The OP cannot be destroyed completly, but the tiant isn't all of the TP; it is just a part, like a weave. Weaves of the OP can be destroyed. Weaves of the TP can be destroyed. The taint is gone, get over it.
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-03-06
Yaga Shura...I purposely ignored the anti-matter problem, seeing no one has ever actually found it.
snakes-n-foxes: 2005-03-06
Oops, missed Aeil Finns comment. Power, is still matter, but smaller than atoms. For example, when two hydrogen atoms fuse to become a helium atom (nuclear fusion), the resultant helium atom is lighter than the combined weight or two hydrogen atoms, or a normal helium atom. The 'lost' matter has become energy, or power.
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-07
snakes-n-foxes: antimatter has been experimentally verified.
"Since when is the taint matter? Does it have mass? Volume?"
If a size can be given to the sphere that formed around SL during the cleansing, then the Taint must have a definite volume.
Aiel Finn: 2005-03-07
The taint itself does not have to be matter. The sphere over SL during the cleansing was from the interaction of taint and SL evil. It could be a sort of matter percipitate.
Stilicho: 2005-03-07
OK, before we get too far afield here--matter cannot be destroyed in our universe...merely transformed into energy, but who knows what is possible in Randland. Anyway, the Taint t'ain't matter anyways.
haertchen: 2005-03-07
I have to second the taint not being matter, and the annihalation not being like matter-antimatter annihalation. If that much matter-antimatter were to collide one the surface of the Earth, every person on the planet would be dead in seconds, and the Earth itself would be only so much dust . . .
It's a fantasy series. The different "powers" don't have to obey the laws we see in our power-less universe. For all we know, the laws of physics change when the ages turn.
But it is interesting that the taint seems to have had a specific volume, while the one power does not.
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-07
"If that much matter-antimatter were to collide one the surface of the Earth, every person on the planet would be dead in seconds, and the Earth itself would be only so much dust "
Okay, but "The different "powers" don't have to obey the laws we see in our power-less universe. For all we know, the laws of physics change when the ages turn."
So in other words your two statements do not work together. If the second is true, then the first is irrelevant.
"But it is interesting that the taint seems to have had a specific volume, while the one power does not."
I would argue that it is possible that the OP does have a specific volume, but that either: A) this volume is so enormous as to be effectively infinite, or B) energy taken from the source to be used in channeling is immediately replaced with energy from some other source.
"matter cannot be destroyed in our universe...merely transformed into energy"
Hmmm, well, uh...what? That would be the destruction of matter.
Ozymandias: 2005-03-07
but the Taint didn't just vanish... It must have gone somewhere. And I dont see how you can reasonably assume that if the evil of SL killed off the Taint, and visa versa, than the SL evil still exists. The evil was not the city... it was the spirit of the people of Aridhol which made it evil, and that spirit lives on in Fain. Therefore the Taint DIDNT eliminate that hatred... meaning it wasnt an erasure of both entities. And if the Taint wasnt completely erased, then it still exists. You can burna tree to ash, but the matter that made it up still exists. And that leads to another question. If you erase the Taint, or annihilate it (which I dont think is the same thing, but w/e) and it ceases to exist, does that function like balefire? And if it does, how is that possible? Because both the Taint and the evil of Aridhol could be interpreted as general patterns on the Age Lace (because they affected such a huge range of people, especially the Taint). So if they annihilate each other, then what does that do to the Pattern? I mean thats altering thousands of years of history, or cutting it short even as its being woven. Is that possible to do without causing serious disruption in the Pattern? Or, if the Pattern weaves everyone's actions, does that mean that the Pattern intended that Rand cleanse the Source at that exact moment, that exact day? Because that would in turn imply that Rand is indeed invincible, since he HAD to be there on that EXACT day to cleanse the Source. Though I guess the outside influence of the DO can disrupt the pattern.... complicated, you guys work it out. Its the idea of balefire, but on a pattern-wide scale rather than an individual thread
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-08
"If you erase the Taint, or annihilate it (which I dont think is the same thing, but w/e) and it ceases to exist, does that function like balefire"
The mutual destruction of the Taint and the Shadar-Logoth-Evil-that-was-in-SL would have no relation to balefire. The big problem with balefire is that it burns a thread out of the Pattern back to a time before the balefire was used, not that it removes a thread. We know that those who were already affected by the Taint are still affected, so it hasn't been affected as it would have been by balefire.
" it was the spirit of the people of Aridhol which made it evil, and that spirit lives on in Fain"
The evil of SL lives on in Fain and the dagger because they weren't in SL at the time of the cleansing. And, sadly, hatred and suspicion are part of human nature.
Callandor: 2005-03-09
**I would argue that it is possible that the OP does have a specific volume, but that either: A) this volume is so enormous as to be effectively infinite, or B) energy taken from the source to be used in channeling is immediately replaced with energy from some other source.**
The One Power does have a specific volume: infinity. Limited taint covering all of saidin, and saidin being infinite are ~NOT~ mutually exclusive concepts. Saidin can have a limited radius and an infinite depth, so that it seems more like a pipe then a container (but if you want to see it like that it would function as a "container). This way the taint can cover all of saidin by simply covering the top portion of saidin, and everything below it reaches on for infinity.
To make extreme examples of it:
You could have a pipe with a radious of a millimeter, and infinite depth, and it can hold an infinite amount of the One Power; yet a dang penny )the taint) could block the top portion of it.
**must have gone somewhere. And I dont see how you can reasonably assume that if the evil of SL killed off the Taint, and visa versa, than the SL evil still exists.**
Does anybody read the series? Seriously?
When the dagger left Shadar Logoth, it's like an independent form of evil breaking off from the "mother" whole. Fain has the dagger and he has some "Shadar Logoth Evil" in him. Yet that evil is totally seperate, indepedent, and uneffected by whatever goes on in Shadar Logoth. RJ answered specifically to this at the ToR website:
**Question:
Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called the Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?
Robert Jordan Answers:
The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. *The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city.* Remember that it was because he was PadanFain, the Hound of the Shadow, that he was able to leave Shadar Logoth in his new condition after he merged with/absorbed Mordeth. (By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)
The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner. His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.**
As well as by Moiraine:
**TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 41 - Old Friends, and New Threats
"Oh, it is catching," Moiraine said, "and your . . . protection would not save you." She pointed to the ruby-hilted dagger, careful not to let her finger touch it. The blade trembled as Mat strained to reach her with it. *"This is from Shadar Logoth. There is not a pebble of that city that is not tainted and dangerous to bring outside the walls, and this is far more than a pebble. The evil that killed Shadar Logoth is in it, and in Mat, too, now. Suspicion and hatred so strong that even those closest are seen as enemies, rooted so deep in the bone that eventually the only thought left is to kill. ~By carrying the dagger beyond the walls of Shadar Logoth he freed it, this seed of it, from what bound it to that place.~ It will have waxed and waned in him, what he is in the heart of him fighting what the contagion of Mashadar sought to make him, but now the battle inside him is almost done, and he almost defeated. Soon, if it does not kill him first, ~he will spread that evil like a plague wherever he goes.~* Just as one scratch from that blade is enough to infect and destroy, so, soon, a few minutes with Mat will be just as deadly."**
**Therefore the Taint DIDNT eliminate that hatred... meaning it wasnt an erasure of both entities.**
No kidding, and no one here is saying that!
Fain is SEPERATE from Shadar Logoth.
You have Shadar Logoth over "here"
-----------------------
You have Fain over "here"
Fain is from the same source -- Shadar Logoth is the "evil", however the evil has broken free from the city and is allowed to move freely.
Rand did not need to use ALL of the evil to Cleanse the taint; he used the evil from the city to act as a magnet for the taint to go to off of the saidin channeled into the city from the reaction.
Once complete, the two forces annihilated each other.
In case you don't see it that way, RJ has specifically said just this in an interview:
**That almost hyperventilating girl I mentioned before asked a question about how exactly Rand cleaned the Taint.
A:You don't think it's obvious?
Err, let's see. You have.. You're using both repulsion and attration of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and repulsion of things that are the same. The Taint upon the... as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as saidin passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from the ..., alright? Now, you have a taint on ... the eh source, the male half of the source, you have the taint on shadar logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The Taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the Taint from saidin to cipher it of. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through saidin , it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... ~To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another.~ You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. ~That will both attract one another and negate one another.~
Do you understand better now?
Q: yes, thank you.
A: Oh, and one last point: It's all imaginary my dear...**
**So if they annihilate each other, then what does that do to the Pattern?**
It does nothing at all to the Pattern -- nothing was burned back.
**Or, if the Pattern weaves everyone's actions, does that mean that the Pattern intended that Rand cleanse the Source at that exact moment, that exact day?**
That part is absolutely true ;) Exact time... meh, you're pick. Because Rand is a ta'veren, and is correcting the Pattern to it's orginial plan, his actions are more tightly controlled by the Pattern. As with everyone inside and of the Pattern, there is some free will, but not a lot. Ta'veren have even less of this.
**Its the idea of balefire, but on a pattern-wide scale rather than an individual thread**
It is not balefire. At all. The two forces simply destroyed each other. That's it.
haertchen: 2005-03-09
Yaga Shura:
Doesn't matter. All I'm saying is that we can't compare it to anything we know nowadays, and there is no reason we should be able to.
Ozymandias:
Whether the taint still exists or not is a tricky issue. If I burn a house down, technically the house still exists, as gas and dust and dirt. But it no longer functions as a house, and so we say that the house has been destroyed. The taint, on the other hand, somehow cancelled out Shadar Logoth, leaving nothing visible or detectable behined. We don't know the rules of the universe to say whether it went anywhere or got turned into anything. I would say that we cannot with certainty say it was not simply destroyed by the opposing taint on Shadar Logoth. On the other hand, we cannot rule out that it was simply freed and returned to the DO. Hard to say.
As for the pattern---you've stumbled into the thorny issue of free will and the pattern. I would say that in general, the pattern wanted the taint cleansed, but it was still up to Rand to cleanse it. The pattern was willing and ready to absorb the changes caused by the cleansing, but whether it was done today or tomorrow, the pattern would absorb it either way. Remember Moraine's warnings about Rand's action's tearing the Age Lace? From the few hints we have, the pattern is not comletely fixed, but it is very good at adapting to changing circumstances and fixing them, when necessary. On the other hand, if Rand had not cleased the taint, that would probably count as a major branching point in the pattern, the kind that forms a significant mirror world. The pattern may have had something up it's sleave for that as well, although what it is hard to say.
Aiel Finn: 2005-03-10
If you hit a baseball with a golf ball of antimatter, most of the baseball will be destroyed, and the rest of it will be blasted out of existance by the resultant energy. The same would happen if you cut a few shavings from the baseball first. If the SL evil is the baseball, and the Taint is the golf ball, then the shavings are Shadar Mandarb and Fain. In both cases, the golf ball is gone, and all of the SL evil except the shavings are gone with it. I hope that this helps.
Bail Fyre: 2005-03-10
It's clear that the "destruction" of Shadar Logoth has not completely erased its evil as it still exists in the dagger, etc. Does that mean that everything negatively affected by the taint, i.e., Rand, the Ways, etc, will remain negatively affected even though it has been cleansed?
Callandor: 2005-03-11
**Does that mean that everything negatively affected by the taint, i.e., Rand, the Ways, etc, will remain negatively affected even though it has been cleansed?**
Yes. All the effects of the taint remain; they do not get worse of course. Rand is still clearly abnormal in CoT, after the Cleansing. RJ has confirmed this in 2 seperate interviews if people want to read them.
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-11
"It's clear that the "destruction" of Shadar Logoth has not completely erased its evil as it still exists in the dagger, etc. Does that mean that everything negatively affected by the taint, i.e., Rand, the Ways, etc, will remain negatively affected even though it has been cleansed?"
Yes it does. RJ has stated as much explicitly. All the negative effects of the Taint and the SL evil will remain, including the wounds in Rand's side and any Asha'man who are already partially insane.
Ozymandias: 2005-03-11
I don't think any of the stuff that the Taint affected will go back to normal. For example, Moiraine describes Machin Shin as a "creature of the ways", which grew out of the Taint. Its now an independant being which probably cannot be killed. Just like Taint-induced madness is not healed by the Cleansing, or even by stilling, nothing will negate the effects of the Taint.
Though, can one burn a PATTERN out of the... Pattern with balefire? Like individual threads, yes, but could you basically white out a whole section of the Pattern by balefiring something like Machin Shin? I assume not, since the balefire does not eliminate Mashadar, which seems to be a twin (in appearance and purpose) to Machin Shin.
Anubis: 2005-03-22
Two things.
Saidin, and probably Saidar, have mass. Remember that whole Eye of the World pond of Saidin?
And Yagura Shauga. When Rand fought Sammael, Rand Balefired Liah and Marshdar fled from it. Implying that Marshdar can, at the very least be hurt by balefire. I imagine that enough Balefire could have killed him (but it would be rediculous ammounts). I imagine the same holds true for Machin Shin.
Anubis: 2005-03-22
Sorry for the double.
I imagine that Shaidar Haran is a little like Padain Fain. Padain Fain was directly touched by the Dark One, giving him a portion of his new powers. This also altered his soul and is IMO responsible for him being "outside the pattern". In short, Padain Fains being touched by the DO made him like the DO. I imagine the same holds true for Shaidar Haran. Take one Myrdraal (and Shaidar Haran has refered to himself as being a Myrdraal) and... infuse its soul with the Dark Ones essence, much like Fain only stronger. The Myrdraal becomes like the Dark One. So... basicly its an Avatar.
Yaga Shura: 2005-03-23
"When Rand fought Sammael, Rand Balefired Liah and Marshdar fled from it. Implying that Marshdar can, at the very least be hurt by balefire. I imagine that enough Balefire could have killed him (but it would be rediculous ammounts). I imagine the same holds true for Machin Shin. "
I didn't say it couldn't be done, just that what actually happened was not equivalent to destruction by balefire. I agree that enough balefire could have destroyed mashadar.
Canan Urgas: 2006-03-30
i think that shaidar haran is moridin, just like baalzamon turned out to be ishamael. moridin uses the disguise to scare the other forsaken. the reason why nobody senses channeling when shaidar is around, i think, is that its moridin using the true power, which only the user can choose. the difference between the POVs of shaidar and moridin is that moridin is as insane as hew was as ishamael (arangar mentions this in KoD) and as ishamael he really thought he was the dark one aka baalzamon. the reason why shaidar/moridin cant be away from shayol ghul for long could be a side effect of overusing the true power, which has consequences that nobody has specified. it was said by one of the female forsaken that ishamael was more than half mad and less than half human. Fades are called half-men by some, even though i know that last bit isnt majorly important.
what ya rec guys? so far none of the feedback ive had against this theory has convinced me otherwise
Callandor: 2006-04-01
1. Shaidar Haran's thoughts are distinctly separate from Moridin's. Sharply so. Moridin doesn't comment on any separateness in his point of view -- his "insanity" is a gross inflation of his ego and how this skews what he views as the world.
2. Shaidar Haran has no eyes -- Moridin does.
3. Shaidar Haran can smell the difference between saidar and saidin. He is the only one known to be able to do this, and no male channeler can "smell" saidar, let alone saidin that we've been referenced.
4. Jordan has essentially said that Shaidar Haran is the Dark One's avatar (though he does not like the word, and compares it more to the "shadow of the Shadow"); Moridin is a human being, and Nae'blis.
5. Shaidar Haran references tossing Aran'gar to his "brothers" -- IE: other Myrddraal.
6. Shaidar Haran was seen the day after Asmodean was killed -- Moridin was not made aware by us till months later, and at best he is still months off in the time line. Previously, he was Ishamael, or he was dead.
Shaidar Haran is not Ishamael/Moridin. At all.
Ozymandias: 2006-04-01
Yeah, and in addition to that, the theory had nothing to do with whether or not Shaidar Haran was Moridin/Ishamael. A varying number of circumstances have proven that that is impossible (as far as anything is impossible in this world)
Canan Urgas: 2006-04-04
Quote "the theory had nothing to do with whether or not Shaidar Haran was Moridin/Ishamael"
if i could prove that shaidar is moridin then how could shaidar be a rogue agent? about their point of views being different, moridin is insane. he thought he was the dark one when he was ishamael. whats to say he doesnt thinks he is a myrrdraal?
quote "A varying number of circumstances have proven that that is impossible"
such as? name them and i will provide evidence to counter it. i dont see any other explanation as to why moridin and shaidar havent been seen together then.
Callandor: 2006-04-04
**such as? name them and i will provide evidence to counter it. i dont see any other explanation as to why moridin and shaidar havent been seen together then.**
I gave six of them above the post you just quoted, which only makes me feel like you deliberately ignored it.
And Sevanna and Bashere haven't been seen together, does that mean that they are the same person? How about Tam al'Thor and Aviendha? Gaidal Cain and Rand al'Thor?
Ozymandias: 2006-04-05
Would you like the most telling reason? Shaidar Haran has to go back to Shayol Ghul every so often to replenish himself. Moridin doesn't. Provide the evidence where Moridin states that he MUST return to SG in order to stay alive.
haertchen: 2006-04-05
***i dont see any other explanation as to why moridin and shaidar havent been seen together then.***
The fact that
1) they have had extremely little screen time, period
and
2a) the nature of their relationship may be an important plot point
or
2b) seeing them together may give too much away (they probably talk very openly together)
is all the explanation we really need for that little point.
Saidar Haran: 2006-04-06
Shaidar's "Shielding" is wholly different from any others - Saidar, Saidin, or True Power. Shaidar's blocks off all awareness of the Source, which Moridin can't do.
Also, we see Shaidar Haran travel via shadow, which is impossible for anyone but a Myrrdraal. Aginor tried to figure out how they did it but couldn't, so how could Moridin be able to do that?
Moridin is not Shaidar Haran.