1
Tamyrlin: 2005-06-29
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
But this begs the question: Why would the Dark One grant so much power and ability to someone who's failed miserably, twice, in less than a year's time? Also, given how strong the case is for Moridin, i think you need to discredit that theory to improve the chances of this one. Then again, why would the Dark One name Ishamael-Moridin Nae'blis when he's failed, twice, in less than a year's time?
for reference, here are some archived theories along this same vein:
http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=43&theo=575
http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=43&theo=576
2
hale: 2005-06-29
DID Ishmael fail though? Much of the DO's plans seem to hinge on the successes of the three Ta'vren rather than their failures. Or rather, what we perceive to be their successes.
Plus when you think about it, Ishmael is truly on another plateu than any of the other Forsaken. While they all squabbled and jockeyed themselves into better positions, Ishmael was the one actually out ther HOUNDING Al'Thor. It seems out of all the Forsaken Ishmael is the only one who truly does not think of himself before his lord.
3
Callandor: 2005-06-30
Nothing much to say except that Ishamael is Moridin (there is nothing that discounts that), and we have been given both Moridin's POV and Shaidar Haran's POV, and both are quite different from one another.
Other than that, there really isn't anything to say.
4
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-06-30
Of course Ishy didn't fail. He gave his all and came up short. From RJ's answer to my question, the DO then considers two things: is any corrective action required, can Ishy be used as a lesson for anyone else? Since it is obvious that Ishy was not punished and was in fact rewarded by being named Nae'blis, we don't have to wonder if Ishy failed, he didn't. We just have to explain why the Dark One liked what he did.
I've on occasion wondered if Ishy could switch bodies and move into the Shaidar Haran body, which has been seen motionless on occasion. But I don't see how that would provide him any advantage over just being Moridin, so I eventually dismiss it.
5
JakOShadows: 2005-06-30
I have to agree with Hale on this one. Even though Ishy had not been successful, I think he's the one that carried out the wishes of the DO better than anyone else. Even if he did fail, it was a far cry from what any of the other forsaken did. So it would only make sense for him to be made Nae'blis and allow him to organize a plan. As for Shadar Haran, I see him more as a secret police or something like that. Yes he has more power than most of the forsaken, but he doesn't ever deal directly with taking down Rand. Rather, if the DO has a command for the forsaken, he sends it through Shadar Haran. Like when he was sent to help Alvairin, he probably didn't want her killed, so he used him to screw up Mesaana's plans for killing her. I see him more as a voice for the DO, to keep them in line, where as Moridin actually helps in plotting against Rand and keep track of the events in the world. And as for using the TP, I think to enforce the DO's will on the forsaken it would be required, as well as some human though processes.
6
SDog: 2005-06-30
"Shaidar seems to have a will of its own, a need to lose its link to SG and have more influence on events."
This could just as easily indicate that the DO wants SH to be free to wander far from SG. Wouldn't he? If I were the root of all evil, I'd want my fingers to travel as far as possible.
"It also has seems familiar with Mesaana saying she “was always too wasteful.” Does this show independent familiarity with the Chosen because it also has independent will and thus its thoughts are its own?"
No, because the DO would be quite familiar with Mesaana's actions, having "worked with her" in the AoL and up through the present. I think it only really shows us that, whoever SH is, his experiences and memories go back to the AoL. If he's a manifestation of the DO's will, his memories would be similar to anyone else around back then.
7
Ozymandias: 2005-06-30
Well, Ishamael was also "more than half crazy, and less than half human". This could, arguably, be from his consistent use of the TP. I also think the flames in his eyes and mouth and stuf are advanced symptoms of over use of the TP. With all this possible, who is to say that using the TP doesn't also create a further loyalty to the source of that power? If one has an addiction, one makes sure that one has constant access to the source of the addiction. And Moridin-Ishamael is/was definetly addicted to the TP, so he has more reason than most to stay close to the Dark One and not risk his displeasure and possible withdrawing of the TP.
Beyond that, consider this. Especially now that the OP has been cleansed and the DO has less means to keep the Chosen loyal (since the now dont have to fear going mad), an addiction the the TP which is controlled solely by the DO is the best way of ensuring loyalty. So maybe Moridin is Nae'blis because he is the only one the DO still has a certainty of control over
8
Sampson: 2005-06-30
I like the way your mind works. But Moridin thinks like Ishy and acts like Ishy, he has the knowledge and memories of the AOL. I think Ishmael would find it insulting to be brought back and find himself in a Fades body (even a super fade).
Fade's are an off shoot of the trollocs, who wouldn't find that insulting.
SH is just another piece in the game. The DO AND Ishmael know that this war has been fought countless time during the turning of the wheel. I assume they figured they needed to change something's up. SH is just a super fade.
(2) points
(1) Ishmael didn't mess up.....if this war has been fought countless times (if this is true) then the DO & Ishy know the odds are against them....ovisiously because they haven't been able to win yet.
a. Ishy did his best, died for it, the DO knows this and brought him back and named him Nablis
(2) SH is the result of the DO being able to influence the world more. He needs an enforcer that he can control. But with the additional abilities he needed also to be able to have some level of free will.
a. Anybody with free will doesn't like to be a slave.
(3) SH could have this knowledge because the DO could have had a meeting with him. “Hand, lets go down the list. Lanfear is ambitious and has her own agenda. She is strong and will always look out for herself. As long as she is working in the direction that is profitable for us, I leave her alone. Next we have..etc...etc.”
9
hale: 2005-06-30
This quote is what leads me to believe that Ishmael is in fact Moridin instead of Shadar Haran:
"The Great Lord is sure you are all faithful," Moridin announced, striding in as though he were the Great Lord of Dark himself. He had often seemed to believe he was, and the boy's face he wore now had not changed that.
(Winter's Heart pp. 316 hardcover)
That to me is completely obvious. Not only does it allude to previous behaviors that Ishmael has exhibited, but it states that "he" has been tranmigrated to a new body. It doesn't directly say him to be Ishmael, however it certainly does everything except that.
10
mazrimashaman: 2005-07-01
well is it possible that the dark one created SH as a usefull tool using "parts" of different things, this would explain some similarities between morridin and sh, but then again mabey this is just the 22 hours without sleep talking.
11
JakOShadows: 2005-07-03
mazrim: What are you trying to say? What would the different parts you are talking about? I'm sure it would help to answer after a good night's sleep.
12
Foxhead: 2005-07-22
ishamael, while failing has done the most for the Shadow's cause, with perhaps the exception of asmodean
the DO, for whatever reasons, wants the 'lord of chaos to rule', which i believe to be a saying to 'let there be chaos'
ishamael created the black ajah...lot's of chaos
collapsed hawkwing's empire
practically created the seachan for them to return and create chaos
even unintentionally created chaos with fain
ishamael did ALOT for the shadow during his freedom from the Bore and can the DO really be that unreasonable when he's supposed to be fighting the Dragon, one fated only to die, perhaps, at the hands of the DO, the second most powerful entity in creation?
but i don't think that SH is ishy/moridin anyway. firstly you misquoted, SH uses black flames not black lightening to envelope mesaana. also moridin is as far south as ebou dar, where SH feels week in the heartlands of randland
also, are you implying that moridin can switch between being SH and himself, otherwise your theory falls short there, as moridin has been seen after SH has introduced himself
anyway, i suggest you have a reread and then rethink your idea
13
Zepher: 2005-07-23
I have to agree. Ishamael was my fave forsaken before his untimely demise and Mordrin fits him to a T. Arrogance on a mountian top to quote Min....
What other Forsaken even comes close to Ishy's pride?
14
IshaSamMoridin: 2005-08-03
*I have to agree. Ishamael was my fave forsaken before his untimely demise and Mordrin fits him to a T. Arrogance on a mountian top to quote Min....
What other Forsaken even comes close to Ishy's pride?*
umm, all of them? seriously though, being proud is just not enough evidence that Moridin=Ishamael. Shaidar Haran is also arrogant, uses the True Power, and is very highly placed in the Dark One's favour. Both are as likely as the other.
15
Callandor: 2005-08-04
**umm, all of them? seriously though, being proud is just not enough evidence that Moridin=Ishamael. Shaidar Haran is also arrogant, uses the True Power, and is very highly placed in the Dark One's favour. Both are as likely as the other.**
No. We know Moridin is Ishamael transmigrated -- the only thing is that it's not stated directly in the series.
1. Ishamael and Moridin being True Power freaks.
2. What Ishamael did over the course of 3000 years more than merits the raising to Nae'blis that Moridin has recieved.
3. Moridin uses the same blank-eyed "dull" servants that Ishamael used in Darkfriend Social in The Great Hunt.
4. Moridin remarks about Sha'rah that three ways of winning, the third being a simple war of attrition. Moridin muses that he had only attempted that strategy once, with very painful results. This is very obviously refering to his death as Ishamael in The Dragon Reborn, at Rand's hands.
5. Moridin becomes angry in The Path of Daggers because he does not know the origins of the Fischer -- he regards it as lost knowledge in the turnings of the Wheel, and that it's his right to know it. Ishamael is the only other villain to ever worry about knowledge from previous turnings at all.
6. And the final, and single most telling proof of Ishamael being Moridin, is this:
**TITLE: Path of Daggers, CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving
"He was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply—melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?"
No other Forsaken could've possibly known about the Warder bond longer than 2 years at the very maximum. Ishamael, he would've known about it for the better part of 2000 years. That's a long, long, time.
Say whatever you want about the other evidence, but that single quote above proves that Moridin is Ishamael.
16
lurk: 2005-08-04
Reading all this I started wondering. Can souls be split to be divided over two beings. Two souls can be combined in one person as Rand/LTT and Luc/Isam prove. This could explain that both SH and Moridin stand high(est) among the forsaken. If they both have a part of Ishy's soul
17
Callandor: 2005-08-04
**Can souls be split to be divided over two beings. Two souls can be combined in one person as Rand/LTT and Luc/Isam prove.**
1. We do not know how Slayer came about or what truely happened to him.
2. Rand does not have two souls in his body; he has two personalities (that is confirmed by RJ).
3. As far as we know, it is impossible to split a soul into 2 or 3 or 4 or whatever you wish to designate. Souls are immortal, and since they are immortal, it stands to reason that they are undivisable.
4. A body can have more than one soul in it. This is shown by Padan Fain, and more than likely Slayer. We don't quite totally understand how Fain got two souls in his body (best we can do is Moiraine's explanation that Mordeth tried to take over his body, because he was touched by the Dark One so much he failed, and now they both exist in the body but are kinda merging -- what we don't know is how Mordeth was existing as a soul walking about), but we know beyond a doubt that he does have two souls in his body.
18
IshaSamMoridin: 2005-08-04
i find that unlikely, and we haven't been told enough about Luc/Isam/Slayer to be sure about what was done to them/him. It could be a simple case of schitzophrenia coupled with some unusual powers.
19
Anubis: 2005-08-04
Rand/LTT is one soul. But Isam/Luc is two souls (probably) with a sort of dual consciousness going on. Hes fairly unique .
20
JakOShadows: 2005-08-05
lurk: I could see two souls being combined, but not one soul being split. Think of it in terms of genetics. It might be possible to combine them and add them together, but it is very unlikely you could separate it only use half of the genes to make a person. It just doensn't seem possible.
21
Canan Urgas: 2006-03-03
Wait guys. Ishamael was killed by rand but the dark one gave ishamael a new body and name-Moridin. I think that shaidar haran is moridin in a disguise which is good enough to scare the other chosen into doing what he needs them to. I think moridin and shaidar are the same, just as ishamael and ba'alzamon were. The reason nobody senses any channeling from shaidar is that he uses the true power which can only be sensed by the user. The weakness shaidar feels when away from shayol ghul i think is a consequence for overusing the true power. As for moridin and Shaidars POV being different...the other forsaken said that ishamael thought he really was the great lord himself-moridin could have the same thing when he is shaidar. Shaidar has only been about for a while, yet he knows that mesaana has always been overly wasteful-how could he know that if he wasnt from the age of legends? because he is moridin, who was ishamael.
22
Ishamael666: 2006-03-03
Shaidar Haran doesn't have EYES. He's a Myrddraal, NOT Moridin in disguise. Unless you're saying Moridin somehow can be in two places at once, thinking completely different thoughts in both places, and knows how to travel from shadow to shadow.
23
TheJester: 2006-03-03
I need a hand with the direct quote, but in The Dragon Reborn when Rand is fighting Ishamael and cuts the Black Cords with Callandor, doesn't Ishamael convulse and there are for a moment two of him.
If memory serves me right one is the Dark One's connection and the other is Ishamael himself.
The Dark One's conection is severed, and for the pruposes of this theory snaps back and returns to the Dark One.
Ishamael who has a soul is quickly killed by Rand when he drives Callandor through his body.
Now assume as evidence supports that the sould of Ishamael is tranmigrated into Moirdin and the Dark One's essence the seed that has lived inside Ishamael the other image of him that was severed by Callandor and that is placed into Shadar Haran.
Anyone agree?
Or is Callandor going to shoot this down himself?
24
Callandor: 2006-03-03
**I think that shaidar haran is moridin in a disguise which is good enough to scare the other chosen into doing what he needs them to. I think moridin and shaidar are the same, just as ishamael and ba'alzamon were.**
1. We've had Shaidar Haran's POV and we've had Moridin's POV -- they're not the same by any means.
2. Shaidar Haran says that he would send Aran'gar to "his brothers" (IE: the Myrddraal) as a punishment. Moridin making this kind of statement defies all sense, even if he was a complete madman which he is not.
3. Yes, Shaidar Haran seems to use the True Power, but more importantly he seems to have an ability to create a limited stedding effect (at least to those sworn to the Shadow). They're not simply shielded, they cannot sense the One Power.
4. Shaidar Haran can smell the difference between saidin and saidar -- male channelers like Ishamael can just know when it's actively being channeled around them, not "smell" it.
**As for moridin and Shaidars POV being different...the other forsaken said that ishamael thought he really was the great lord himself-moridin could have the same thing when he is shaidar. Shaidar has only been about for a while, yet he knows that mesaana has always been overly wasteful-how could he know that if he wasnt from the age of legends?**
5. Ishamael/Moridin is an arrogant, and slightly delusional man. If you notice, Shaidar Haran does not say that he's the Dark One at all; he specifically says that he's the Hand of the Dark. When he talks to Graendal, he says that when he speaks she is to hear the voice of the Dark One -- not that he is the Dark One. It's like saying a Seanchan High Blood's Voice is the actual noble; no, the Voice is just an intermediary.
6. Jordan has said that the Myrddraal that came to Jaichim Carridin in The Dragon Reborn was an earlier version of Shaidar Haran. Whether they were two completely different beings or not, doesn't matter too much since then all earlier forms of a Myrddraal smiling can be attributed to these forms or Shaidar Haran (if it's always been one Myrddraal being upgraded). At the Darkfriend Social, in The Great Hunt, there is a Myrddraal that smiles that announces Ishamael's arrival, and stays there throughout the meeting.
7. Shaidar Haran can know about Mesaana due to knowledge from other sources: the Dark One or Ishamael/Moridin or other Forsaken.
Shaidar Haran and Ishamael/Moridin are quite seperate beings.
25
Lord of the Dawn: 2006-03-03
***Wait guys. Ishamael was killed by rand but the dark one gave ishamael a new body and name-Moridin. I think that shaidar haran is moridin in a disguise which is good enough to scare the other chosen into doing what he needs them to.***
So why did he even come back as Moridin if he could have faked being Shaidar Haran?
***I think moridin and shaidar are the same, just as ishamael and ba'alzamon were.***
Ba'alzamon is the Trolloc name for Ishamael. It's like a nick name. It's not a whole different character.
***The reason nobody senses any channeling from shaidar is that he uses the true power which can only be sensed by the user. The weakness shaidar feels when away from shayol ghul i think is a consequence for overusing the true power.***
Then how come Shaidar Haran can do things Moridin can't? Disappear into the shadows like Myrddraal? Strike fear at a glance? Have NO eyes? It just doesn't add up.
***Shaidar has only been about for a while, yet he knows that mesaana has always been overly wasteful-how could he know that if he wasnt from the age of legends? because he is moridin, who was ishamael. ***
He is the Dark One in physical form, I remember reading that from RJ. He is a physical manifestation of the DO, and that is how he knows all of that stuff.
26
tworiverswoman: 2006-03-06
Quote from TheJester: I need a hand with the direct quote, but in The Dragon Reborn when Rand is fighting Ishamael and cuts the Black Cords with Callandor, doesn't Ishamael convulse and there are for a moment two of him?
If memory serves me right one is the Dark One's connection and the other is Ishamael himself.
The Dark One's connection is severed, and for the purposes of this theory snaps back and returns to the Dark One.
Ishamael who has a soul is quickly killed by Rand when he drives Callandor through his body.
Now assume as evidence supports that the soul of Ishamael is transmigrated into Moridin and the Dark One's essence the seed that has lived inside Ishamael the other image of him that was severed by Callandor and that is placed into Shadar Haran.
Ok, Jester - here's the quote you were looking for:
"And then he was in the Heart of the stone again, stalking through the rubbled gap that had been a wall. Some of the columns hung like broken teeth, now. And Ba'alzamon backed away from him, eyes burning, shadow cloaking him. Black lines like steel wires seemed to run off from Ba'alzamon into the darkness mounding around him, vanishing into unimaginable heights and distances within that blackness.
"I will not be undone!" Ba'alzamon cried. His mouth was fire; his shriek echoed among the columns. "I cannot be defeated! Aid me!" Some of the darkness shrouding him drifted into his hands, formed into a ball so black it seemed to soak up even the light of Callandor. Sudden triumph blazed in the flames of his eyes.
"You are destroyed!" Rand shouted. Callandor spun in his hands. Its light roiled the darkness, severed the steel-black lines around Ba'alzamon, and Ba'alzamon convulsed. As if there were two of him he seemed to dwindle and grow larger at the same time. "You are undone!" Rand plunged the shining blade into Ba'alzamon's chest.
Ba'alzamon screamed, and the fires of his face flared wildly. "Fool!" he howled. "The Great Lord of the Dark can never be defeated!"
Rand pulled Callandor's blade free as Ba'alzamon's body sagged and began to fall, the shadow around him vanishing.
And suddenly Rand was in a another Heart of the Stone, surrounded by columns still whole, and fighting men screaming and dying, veiled men and men in breastplates and helmets. Moiraine still lay crumpled at the base of a redstone column. And at Rand's feet lay the body of a man, sprawled on its back with a hole burned through the chest. He might have been a handsome man in his middle years, except that were his eyes and mouth should have been were only pits from which rose tendrils of black smoke."
Jester -- I believe the line you were referring to is just poetic imagery. Very NICE poetic imagery, but still... All the above took place in T'A'R, except for the last paragraph. T'A'R is the only place where the black cords can be seen. I've sat here and read that bolded sentence a dozen times, and I really can't make it mean anything, other than that Rand had severed his link with the Dark One. The visual image I get from the "dwindle/grow" dichotomy resembles special effects I've seen in a dozen sci-fi/fantasy flicks.
I'm having a little trouble with your final sentence, as you have no punctuation at all, but I think you are trying to say: "Now assume, as evidence supports, that the soul of Ishamael is transmigrated into Moridin -- and the Dark One's essence (the seed that has lived inside Ishamael) [is] the other image of him that was severed by Callandor, and that is placed into Shadar Haran." If my added punctuation is correct (heh), you believe that Ishamael was a sort of "partial" avatar of the Dark One, and that the bit of the Dark One that was originally borne by Ishy was then transferred to Shadar Haran. Oy. I've made so many assumptions here that I'm not sure what question I might be responding to.
But if that's what you meant (feel free to deny it after I mangled it), then I'm going to disagree, anyway. There is no evidence whatsoever that Ishamael ever hosted any portion of the Dark One, except for the Black Cords and whatever pacts, agreements and swearings he made for the sake of his immortality. In other words -- No part of Ishamael was transferred to Shadar Haran. See my next paragraph for more.
Canan Urgas, I can't find the precise quote from RJ, because it's from his blog, which is presently inaccessible, but he has stated, without hedging, that Shadar Haran is an "avatar" of the Dark One, 24/7 (well, 24/10, actually). He said he didn't really like to use the word "avatar" because it implies that SH has ALL the Dark One's powers, and he doesn't, but he couldn't provide a better word at the time. Shadar Haran is NOT in possession of a human soul. Any human's soul (I've heard Asmodean's name floating around in other forums). The Dark One wears the Shadar Haran flesh like a too-small suit. In this form, he needs to return to Shayol Ghul periodically for some unstated reason (possibly to "refresh" the imprint, or whatever).
Shadar Haran can use the True Power because he is, for all practical intents and purposes, the Dark One, i.e., the generator of the True Power. He has knowledge beyond that of most Myrdrraals for the same reason. Alviarin had it right, in essence. She was "marked" by the Dark One, himself.
27
TheJester: 2006-03-07
cheers tworiverswoman you got what I meant exactly. Sorry about the lack of punctuation, I should have read what I wrote over again to make sure that it was clear.
28
Wheezy: 2008-01-28
Let's not forget Shaidar Haran's ability to make the channeler's "sense" of the source disappear at times. There have been a couple of times where the forsaken realize that they cannot even feel the source much less touch the OP when he is around. Moridin has never displayed that ability or even thought about it whenever we are in his POV. That's not saying he can't do it, but how would a man, even the Nae'blis have that power? I think That Shaidar Haran is something much more evil and shows DO extending his powers further and further outside of his prison. It's more likely that Shaidar Haran is a fade that the DO favored for whatever reason and granted it extra powers to do his bidding. The fact that Shaidar Haran has to return to SG after being away for too long is symbolic to the fact that DO is still trapped so Shaidar Haran's powers are limited while away from SG while the Forsaken's aren't.
29
Hand of the Shadow: 2008-11-13
QUOTING A SECTION FROM AN INTERVIW WITH ROBERT JORDAN AT DRAGONCON.
WinespringBrother: "Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?"
Jordan: "I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not: Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It’s as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature…it is the Dark One in shadowy form."
UNQUOTE
My belief is that Moridin is being used as a vessel for a fraction of the Dark One, and that when that fraction manifests, Shaidar Haran appears.
First off, look at the wording; RJ says "Its as if the Dark One can put a shadow form of himself into this creature...IT IS the Dark One in shadowy form."
Shaidar more or less declared that Shaidar is a shadowy form of the Dark One, yet he said the Dark One can put a shadowy form of himnself into it. How can he put a shadowy part of himself in a shadowy part of himself, do you see what I mean?
Ok, I make references here to Shaidar Harans PoV and the Watchers PoV. Shaidar and the Watcher can both identify Saidin and Saidar, yet we have seen Moridin watch Aviendha unravel a weave and not make references to Saidar. However, the Watcher uses the True Power and as far as we know only Moridin can. Also, the Watcher moves silently without effort, a very Fade-like quality. From these I get that the Watcher was Shaidar and not Moridin.
Also, look back to the scene where Shaidar holds Moghediens mind trap. He tells her to close her eyes, then another voice tells her to open her eyes and there stands Moridin...holding her mind trap. No sign of Shaidar.
My theory is that the Dark One uses Moridin as a vessel for a fraction of himself, and the Point of View of that shadowy part, when Shaitan makes it come to the fore, is called Shaidar Haran. This explains why Shaidar told Moghedien to close her eyes-so she wouldnt see the transformation and figure it out.
