1
Tamyrlin: 2003-01-28
It would seem like you are on the right track from what we have been given. I would suggest more of a Fain like character. In other words, I think the DO is giving this myrrdraal powers by becoming part of it, and as the seals break, it can move further and more frequently from Shayol Ghul. If it is a combination, I would suggest that Shaidar Haran would win a battle of trust, but that Moridin is running the show. Either way, the DO is using them both to do whatever he wants, and it isn't apparent that either is subservient to the other.
2
Anubis: 2003-01-28
Well, what do we know about shaidar haran?
1. he can channel the true power (?). well he does have nifty burn stuff powers, but he doesnt travel by gateway, so maybe.
2. He is basicly a myrdraal. he uses shadow to move, has the still hanging cloak, he is eyeless, likes torturing women.
3. He has his own personality. He shows amusment, and smiles. Myrdraal dont do this, he is also taller then all the others.
4. He has powers that would seem to be reserved for the dark one. He marks people as his own, and prevents those sworn to the dark (at least) from channeling.
5. He feels weakness. When away from shayol ghul he gets tired after a time.
6. He wants to be completely free to wander the world, he does not want to be bound to shayol ghul.
7. His will and the dark ones will are the same. When he says somthing, it is as if it came straight from the lord of all badness.
From this i would say that Shaidar is a myrdrall that houses a part of the dark one. Prolly the part that is loose in the world. He is like an avatar. Remember that the dark one has showed ignorance (as well as suprising knowledge). It would seem that he is wanting to see things with his own eyes, and directly influnce the world through a creature that is absolutly loyal. Moridin seems to be the plan master, but shaidar seems to be more in touch with the DO.
3
Dedicated: 2003-01-28
This poses another interesting question. It springs from when the DO is punishing the rather frightened Moggy after she was freed from Salidar by Halima. He says (this may not be a direct quote since I don't have the book ready to hand) "YOU MAY SERVE ME STILL" and then "MY HAND MOVES". It's then that Shaidar Haran takes Moggy inside the vacuole. Now my question is this. Does the DO consider action done by SH as done the DO himself? That quote caught my eye when I was leafing through my series last night(after finishing CoT). What do y'all think. Insight would be appreciated.
4
silverwolf: 2003-02-09
I tend to think that SH is a personal incarnation of the DO rather than a myrdraal pumped up with his powers. The weakness when it gets too far away from Shayol Ghul or stays away too long seems to indicate that its existence is dependent on the DO's ability to touch the world. If this is the case, then SH is higher in power, trust, and authority than Moridin.
5
Callandor: 2003-02-09
I personally believe its a pumped up Myrddraal. In my mind if the DO had enough power to make himself apparent in a free moving being, I would like to think that there would be many more of these guys. So I think its just a super-fade.
6
Nateosis: 2003-02-10
A couple things. . if shaidar haran is merely a pumped up fade, (or fade v2.0 lol) why wouldn't the dark one just make a slew of the for some serious forces of light whomping? I truly think there is something unique about this dude.. . and personally, I think he's like the Dark One's Moses, if not the dark one himself. . .maybe as the seals weaken further, he'll get stronger and stronger? Is there any reference to the forsaken being weak at first when they were first free of the prison? cause that'd be a great little bit of evidence for the "shaidar being shai'tan" theory.
7
Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-10
I tend to see SH as a unique being that is growing stronger,and taking on a more commanding role among the DO's forces as the seals weaken.It is the DO's way to play a direct hand in the affairs of his Chosen, as opposed to having to rely on untrustworthy eyes and ears. SH's "superfade" powers are merely a gift of the Great Lord...er...Dark One to help ensure that the Chosen..er...Forsaken understand that SH does in fact hold a position closer to the DO than the Forsaken currently do. not to mention a means of controlling them through intimidation. The one major problem any great evil toughguy has is the trustworthiness of his minions and SH is an attempt to rectify that problem. Control over the male forsaken will be an even higher priority if the taint has actually been removed,but that remains to be seen.The forsaken haven't exactly come through with shining colors so far, and I would assume that someone needs to direct thier efforts a little more forcefully until the DO himself can...Thus SH being the hand of the Dark one..
8
Nateosis: 2003-02-11
Its not a question of whether or not Not-so-slimy shady is the hand of the dark one, its a question of HOW he's the hand of the DO. . . is he an avatar for the DO? or is he just really imbues with the DO's powers?
Personally, i'm leaning towards the avatar theory.
9
Dedicated: 2003-02-12
I'm on the avatar bandwagon (hell, I submitted this theory). I don't think he's just a super-fade. As one of you stated, if SH was such, why wouldn't the DO just make a million of them and crush the Light? Now I went back to take a look at the whole Messanna and SH sequence when a few things caught my eye.
CoT pp.516 "You were always...overly wasteful" This is SH talking to Mesanna when he first arrives. This implies that he knows Mesanna's methods, i.e. SH has knowledge of the Forsaken that no just-born super-fade should have. This would indicate SH has the DO's intimate knowledge of his servants.
Another quote from SH. CoT pp 516. "She can be useful," the Myrddraal rasped. "I would not want the Black Ajah destroyed." This sounds like the DO stating his will, expecting to be obeyed. Ergo, when SH talks, it's the DO talking.
Another interesting quote, same page CoT (516) "Do you think Hand of the Shadow is just a name?" This is the DO stating to Mesanna that SH doesn't just give out a name like Hand of the Shadow. It has special signifigance.
Quote #4 CoT pp. 517. "You were summoned and did not come. My hand reaches far, Mesanna." This is SH speaking, but it sounds like the DO talking THROUGH him.
Finally qoute #5. CoT pp. 517.
"It flowed toward her-no; not it-the Great Lord, clother in the skin of a Myrddraal, flowed toward her. He walked on legs, yet there was no other description for the way he moved. The pale, black-clad shape bent toward her, and she would have shrieked when he touched a finger to her forehead. She would have shrieked if she could have summoned any sound at all. Her lungs were airless sacks. The touch burned like red-hot iron. Vaguely, she wondered why she did not smell her own flesh burning. The Great Lord straightened, and the searing pain dwindled, vanished. Her terror did not lessen in the slightest, though.
'You are marked as mine,' the Great Lord rasped. 'Mesanna will not harm you, unless I give her permission. You will find those who threaten my creatures here and deliver them to me."
Whew, long quote, but I felt it was all signifigant. The marking of Alviarin almost proves the avatar-hood to me. As far as we know, no one can claim anyone as their own in the DO's name except the DO. And telling Alviarin that "Mesanna will not harm you, unless I give her permission" indicates that SH has absolutely no fear of the Forsaken, and even exercises control over them. The only beings I know of that don't fear the Forsaken are the DO and maybe Rand. I've also never seen the Forsaken obey anyone except the DO. They certainly step lively to SH's tune whenever he puts the fear of the Great Lord into them, though.
SH is an intriguing character. Is he the DO avatar? I think so. SH certainly has Mesanna and Alviarin convinced.
10
Callandor: 2003-02-12
Ok... I think that I may have misinterpreted you guys. I was meaning that SH was a regular Myrddaal then turned up to what he is now by the DO. I didn't mean that he was just a new breed of Myrddaal (however it could be true its just that the DO has to do it and it takes a long time, hell we didnt know of him till book 6 what if he was being made before the series started?).
And as for Alviarin, come on she was obviously terrorfied out the ying-yang, almost anybody seeing that might call him the DO. I still dont think its the DO walking around as a Myrddaal though. Still think its a pumped up Myrddaal that the DO has selected out to be his voice to the Forsaken and make sure that they go to code, if like Moirdin messes up or something.
11
Nateosis: 2003-02-12
I dunno, we all know how untrusting the great lord is, but there just seems something wrong with having moridin. . .and THEN have some fade on 'roids thats, as far as we know, as strong as, if not stronger than moridin. . . .i dunno, it just doesnt smell right. Now having an avatar, as well as having moridin makes MUCH more sense = )
All Hail the White Majah!
12
Anubis: 2003-02-20
I thought of haran as an incarnation avatar type thing who was going to kill us all untill i reread his pov. i think that the important thing to remember is that haran feels weakness and so, is probably mortal. this would make him not fully dark one, seeing as the darkone is outside the pattern and probably not the kind to feel weakness, in fact the DO is in all likely hood immortal, or at least unkillable by any means we possess, and i include the creator in that we.
13
Dedicated: 2003-02-20
We know that SH can channel the TP (what else could the stuff he binds Mesanna with be?) SH is the DO's avatar. He is obviously placed above all other Forsaken (even Ishydin from what we know). To me there is no reason why we should assume SH is anything else. He punishes Forsaken. Only the DO can punish Forsaken. SH marks Alviarin as his own. Who would have the arrogance to do this without the DO's consent? Nobody (not even Ishydin, I would think.) I think it's clear that the DO has an avatar and it is SH. Nuff said.
14
Callandor: 2003-02-21
Ishamael already HAD Alvarin in his hand, he put her there for crying out loud. Moggy took control of the BA rouge group in a snap of a finger. So in my opinion ANY Forsaken would have the ego and arragence in order to take control of an Aes Sedai in this age.
15
Dedicated: 2003-02-23
My contention point is we have never seen the Forsaken "mark" anyone in the way SH does. Sure, the Forsaken are contemptuous of modern Aes Sedai, but marking them as the Great Lord's property themselves? I don't know.
Someone also pointed out that SH feels weakness, implying he is mortal. Of course he's mortal. He's just whoop-hiney powerful. As I have stated before, the seals have not weakened so far that the DO's avatar would be all-powerful. SH does have many powers that only the DO seems to have, though. The weakness SH feels is from being to far from Shayol Ghul for too long. SH states that he wants to find a way to break that link, so he doesn't have to keep going back to SG to "recharge his fade batteries" so to speak. That way SH could move freely about the world, spreading the word about all the nice things the DO going to do to humanity.
Sidenote before I go: Thanks for always having an arguement for me Callandor. We don't always see eye to eye, but you keep the discussions alive and I commend you for it ;).
16
Anubis: 2003-03-02
Upon further reflection, i think that shaidar haran is a thread in the pattern completely woven, not just touched, by the dark one. it is the black thread in the weaving that can be used to disrupt the patterns, but is still subject to the "rules" of mortality. ie: no ultimate power, no power without consequence, no immortality.
17
juitzhead: 2003-03-31
"A faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol
Ghul. That tie had to be severed somehow."
I think the SH is a physical form of the DO. With the seals weakining, i think he can touch the world at intervals the same way that Ishy did. He is bound at SG but not totally.
Also, he is referred to as 'Great Lord' by numerous people. The only one that does not do this is Greandal and he is amused by this.
18
Callandor: 2003-03-31
Only one I remember calling SH the Great Lord was Alvarian and she was really freaked out by him, plus not a Forsaken.
In my mind, he isa pumped up Myrddraal from the DOs corruption. NOTT!!!! the DO made flesh. He speaks for the DO but isnt the DO at all.
19
Anubis: 2003-04-15
shaidar haran says to messaana something along the lines of "you were always wastefull". to me this implies a personal knowledge of mesaanas history which leads me more toward the dark one made flesh, but still mortal and all.
20
Mera-din: 2003-06-20
i'm going to jump in here and say i agree with the avatar theory. his power would be relative to DO's as the seals weaken, and as an avatar, would be subject to mortal weaknesses. looking at any other fantasy world involving beings from a higher plane (gods, goddesses, etc.), their physical form in the mortal realm can be wounded, killed, etc. also, the knowledge SH has implies memories from a time he was obviously not around in. i look forward to RJ's development of this bad-@$$ dude.
21
Oatman: 2004-01-25
This is probly wrong, and i dont expect any to believe this entirely, but isnt it possible that SH is Asmodean reborn? The other people brought back recieved some sort of punishment for there pride, or crimes against the DO etc, and none betrayed the DO like Asmodean did, so it makes sense that he would be given the worst body available, and the worst job. The fact that he cant leave Shayol Ghul for long may be the DO limiting him so that he cant betray him again, and removing the ability to channel the OP would be another harsh punishment, however he may still be able to channel, he just hasnt had the need to yet. The shodow traveling he does would be inherent from the myrdrayals body, and maybe the other abilities are to, for all we no the dark one or slayer or some other evil blight dude could be breeding a race of super shadowspawn away from the eyes of the foresaken. A lot of people have mentioned how RJ likes to say somthing in a hint beforehand, in conversations or musings, and have it come true later. Asmodean repeatedly thought that it would be ironic that he would be the only living foresaken if Rand kept killing them the way he was, though obviuosly he thought he would be on Rands side.
As for how the Dark One could be sure Asmodean wouldnt btray him again, it is said that Asmodean went to the DO so he could live forever, and that he could never bear pain. By limiting his travel the DO has ensured that he will have to be loyal as he has to return to shayol ghul regularly. And im sure using TP against the DO or his forces would have a painful result.
22
Zader: 2004-06-28
Who is SH.
He is the fulfillment of Prophecy.
And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the DO shall once more “lay his hand” upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand nor abide...
SH has proclaimed himself the hand of the shadow, thus prophecy fulfilled.
This last bit is speculation, SH wants a way to break his tie to SG. The severed hand associated with Rand; could this be in some way SH or Rand managing to sever the tiebetween SH and SG.
23
Fizz: 2010-06-01
An interesting thought occurred to me while re-reading some of the theories. The DO tells Rand at one point (I don't have time to research the exact quote or location thereof) that he would serve him, whether it be in life or in death. Now, we know that this is not the first turning of the wheel, and that the same events have played themselves out in different ways for who-knows-how-long. So, what if SH is one of the previous Dragon's incarnations that failed... or perhaps one of the other ta'veren, perhaps one of the very first, that the DO has snatched from the grave and turned into this abomination? It may not be a well thought-out theory, since him taking this soul and making SH out of him would possibly prevent that soul from being reincarnated into another Dragon/ta'veren.
