eason for the Corenne
by solomonrex: 2003-04-16 | Not yet rated
This speech from Ishamael:
"A thousand years later I sent the Trollocs ravening south, and for three centuries they savaged the world. Those blind fools in Tar Valon said I was beaten in the end, but the Second Covenant, the Covenant of the Ten Nations, was shattered beyond remaking, and who was left to oppose me then? I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed."
-The Eye of the World, The Stag and Lion
The last sentence of Hawkwing would be held higher than anything else by the Seanchan. A dying man's last words. The true ambition for the Return of Hawkwing's empire to Rand's continent is to destroy the White Tower, Hawkwing's unfulfilled wish. They don't mind colonization, but that's not their true purpose. They will invade the White Tower (like the Aiel singlemindedly chasing Laman). The bat-like thing that Egwene saw in COT is a Seanchan scout animal, so the battle is coming soon (I hope).
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-21
I agree. The White Tower is the only true force (other than the Black Tower) that really presents a detering force. This must have been the doctrine they have lived by, to Return and enslave the White Tower. However, did the Seanchan really hear his last words, because Hawkwing's son Luthair was sent across the Ocean before Hawkwing died. Ishamael seems to believe that sending them across the ocean was sealing a fate yet to come (which could be the destruction of the White Tower), any other ideas to what doom he was hoping to bring about?
2
Rand-althor: 2003-04-21
I agree that the "doom yet to come" is likely the WT, but will this still happen with the alliance between Rand and the Seanchan? The attack could be engenered to get Eladia out of power, but I cant see them invading and destroying the white tower without Rand and his masses of Ashamen smashing them all to dust with the OP.
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Highbreaker: 2003-04-21
Hey Solomon and Tamy (why are you two always on the posts I find interesting...)I think it is fairly obvious. Ishy was a heavy thinker, and a philosopher, he also was not locked up in the DO's prison like the rest of the forsaken. This drove him insane, but did not detract from his genius. He had time to think and plan, to unravel the pattern, to find out why the Dragon always won, and why the DO always lost, and as any other philospher would have noticed, he saw the strength in numbers that the Dragon rallied about him, and sought to eliminate that advantage.
Note the DO's order to "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule", to me, this is pretty funny... it is almost as if the DO had said, "Let Rand try and rule after this this crap we did to him Ishy, heh heh heh..." I mean really... there is more dissention in Randland/Seanchan than should be logically possible. Do you think this is all the fault of hurt prides and stuck up councils? There is a heavy influence from the Darkfriends here.
anyway, Ishy saw all this, and started the chaos way ahead of time, after deciphering the Prophecies of the Dragon, he sent out this army to come back at just the right time to rip apart the world and leave the DO a way out in the confusion... What Ishy wasn't counting on, is the fact that Mat is going to patch this all up. Mat, by definition is a wild card, and I would bet that even Ishy had trouble predicting what he will do. The only prophecies I have seen about him are about how he will go do what he wants (excepting the things the **finns said to him, but I'd bet no one but him has really seen those...)
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Anubis: 2003-04-21
yeah, the doom of the white tower is a good possibility. personally i think that the white tower needs to change loads. also, in every other possible life that portal stone rand lived, the seanchan came back, conquered the world, and then lost to the hordes of trollocs. so that could be it as well, but they dont seem to be doing all that great of a job with that doom.
5
Highbreaker: 2003-04-22
I still think it has less to do with the white tower in specific than it does with general chaos. Ishy knew that the white tower was full of elitist B****es and so he didn't have to worry so much about them. The White tower causes enough of its own chaos...
Of course, he was an aes sedai also, so he would have known the power they held, and would have tried to incapacitate them as well. I think, that the Seanchan hating the Aes Sedai is more of a side effect of what he had to do to make sure that Artur Hawking lasted long enough to spread the seanchan and crush the second covenant...
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solomonrex: 2003-04-22
Ishy forsaw the Seanchan return and their White Tower revenge- Hawkwing's failed invasion of TV is at least well known, if not his dying wish. But I don't think when Ishy set things in motion he knew the WT would be split- so the Seanchan may crush the WT only when it will do the most good to the forces of the light. I'm not in the camp that think the Seanchan are DFs or even strongly influenced, so I think Ishy can't prevent them from toppling Elaida and subsequently hurting the BA. That may be why he needed Halima- the DO needs to infiltrate the Salidar AS's because the other ones aren't going to last. The trouble with the good (Rand & Co) is that they don't communicate, the trouble with the bad (Ishy & Co) is that they don't cooperate. This is a classic case: where Ishy knows something that would help the BA and Elaida- but he doesn't care what happens to her. Crushing the WT is still symbolically good for Ishy, too- imagine if the Vatican had been destroyed in the middle ages- huge chaos. I think he has the Black Tower in his iron fist through Taim- which will then become more important.
I think the Wheel has willed a way for the good Ajahs to survive the Seanchan until Rand can put them to heel. The Salidar rebellion may not need to invade themselves, but they do have an army ready for Tarmon Gaidon.
Highbreaker, Tamy _is_ on all the posts. But I'm not- I think you're just following me around.
7
Weird Harold: 2003-04-22
How does the "corruption" of the Prophecies of the Dragon fit into this?
I think that Ishmael is also responsible for the "He must bow before the crystal throne" instead of "he will bind the nine moons to him" difference in the Seanchan version of the Prophecy is part of "the doom yet to come."
8
Callandor: 2003-04-22
Most people seem to be forgetting that in TEOT, Ishy himself commented that he spoke and the Amyrlin danced like a puppet and though she controlled the world (will find the exact quote). So why would he, 1000 years in the past, send armies across the worlds biggest ocean just to come back in 1000 years to handle a problem he already had under control?
I think that its just the spreading of chaos enough so that Rand has to take forces away from fighting the Shadow to deal with the Seanchan while the Shadow gathers around him. Its just a big diversion and Rand realizes it at the end of COT when he sends for a truce.
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Anubis: 2003-04-22
even ishys m8s have somthing like this to say about him "he was ever one to lie when it gained him a hair or a second" so it could just be a lie. that is very possible.
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Callandor: 2003-04-22
And Ishamaels taunting about the Seanchan and making a foul of Farstrider. Ishy may have lied, but with his control over the world I believe that he wouldnt see a point in lying that much.
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solomonrex: 2003-04-23
This isn't definitive, but Ishy lied about the White Tower when it would do him the most good- to feed Rand's mistrust. Even if the WT had a lot of Black Ajah sisters in it, it did represent the largest pain in the DO's backside. I don't think Ishy effectively controlled it until very recently. And maybe it's a different Forsaken, maybe they don't get along. Everything can't be simply to cause chaos- even for Ishy. It has to benefit the DO somehow. If his forces were fighting each other all the time, even Tarmon Gaidon would become a cake walk. tSoSG refers to the time after the sealing of the Bore as the war against the DO's forces became so much easier because they were fighting each other as much as the good guys (besides the obvious lack of forsaken).
Ishy's planning for the future, and we know the quote from tEotW is the truth because the Ogier scholar backs up this with information about Hawkwing's late advisor (and I believe he provides the 40 year Ishy cycle theory). Imagine if Ishy hadn't done this: with the continent under Hawkwing's banner, if the WT had joined up with him, the land would have been united under the WT to fight the DO. Rand's world would have been so much stronger.
Seanchan might be influenced by Ishy at various times- but I don't think they are actually evil. On the other hand, Rand is not going to bow to the Crystal throne of his own free will. I don't think he'd go to Seanchan at all except to invade- he doesn't go anywhere anymore except to invade. And he's not going to trust the Seanchan more than the Aes Sedai. If the 'bow to the throne' reference is a corruption, then it doesn't have to come true. So, it wouldn't help us see the future in that case.
The Salidar AS aren't going to invade without Egwene- though I can't say if Gareth, Suane, etc. would try to get her back in a special op. So I think they are safe from the Seanchan. I don't think the current WT will win a battle with the Seanchan. The Greens were the battle Ajah (and are not well represented in the WT), the Reds are used to male channelers and I think the Seanchan remember how to fight AS. In addition, it is clear that the Salidars have the numbers.
Personally, I hope Egwene's inside when the Seanchan invade- she'll wreak total devastation.
12
Highbreaker: 2003-04-23
hey solomonrex, ha, I realized how dumb that comment about Tamyrillian was right after I wrote it, but I am not following you around. We just happen to find the same things interesting. :P---
Yeah, I am glad Callandor agrees with me. There is NO way that someone as smart as Ishy really could have thought he could have destroyed the Aes Sedai, he just wants all the different forces of good to wear each other down, so when evil comes, there won't be as many good people to fight back with. Letting the "lord of chaos rule". As I pointed out, Ishy used to be an Aes Sedai, he knows EXACTLY how tough they are.
13
jayenigma: 2003-04-28
Just an observation....
Has Ishy/Moridin ever referred to 'so-called Aes Sedai'? Because, if he hasn't (and I don't recall him doing so), that lends credence to the belief that his goal with the Seanchan is to destroy the Tower - it means he views the Tower as a serious threat, unlike the other Chosen who seem to treat it like a joke.
14
Highbreaker: 2003-04-28
Even if Ishy wants to destroy the white tower, that doesn't mean that was the sole purpose for what he did. I still think Ishy was like, "Cool, White tower. BONUS POINTS, YEAH!!!!" I mean really, Let Chaos Rule was his Idea in the first place, and he has been laying the path for rand for so long... I can't remember the exact quote, but I have it at home, and I will try and get it to you...
Anyway though, The Destruction of the Aes Sedai was like an after thought, like, "Hmm, when these seanchan return, who do I want them to hate more than anything... Oh, Hey, Those Aes Sedai suck, why not them..." Chaos before the tower. -Highbreaker
15
Callandor: 2003-04-28
Ishy has called the Aes Sedai weak like children in ACOS when he talks to Rand as the Wanderer/Moridin.
And he doesnt want the Aes Sedai destroyed mainly because of this. His black ajah are in the the Tower, he can manipulate them to control the world on a MUCH larger scale, and he can keep close to the main people of the book. Why would he want the Tower and the source of Aes Sedai gone??
16
Brainchz: 2003-04-30
It seems to me that when Ishy says "A doom yet to come" it's not so much a prophetic statement as a statment based on the fact that he knew the Seanchan where returning.
In the past he sent Hawkwings children away to destroy Hawkwing's dreams. Once he's returned in EOTW he could have checked on the remnants of Hawkwing's army and maybe even pushed them to hurry things up.
17
The Leveler: 2003-05-02
But the Seanchan also hunt and kill boys/men wh can channel. Ishy might've been hoping they'd just kill the DR. Or with backstabbing Seanchan politics, use the male a'dam and not let him fight the Last Battle.
18
anderwarrick: 2003-06-07
I think that the 'doom yet to come' is when Rand goes to his meeting with the fake daughter of the nine moons and get caught in the a'dam for men. that would be pretty bad for the forces of light. Without Rand, they don't really have a chance at winning.
